Unpaid debt recovery - help

[monkeycountry]

If your contract is valid then taking the legal action can be done. Win in court, then seize the assets of the company. He will be responsible for the court costs and your legal fees if you win.

No he won't. If the OP wants to go to court, I suggest he talks to someone who has actually been to court in Thailand, and not just take advise from many here who think it works the same as in the west. It doesn't.

First of all, the reimbursed expenses such as legal fees are much much lower than the actual fees, the court has it's own rates which have nothing to do with actual rates. Secondly the case will take many years, no matter how trivial it is, so one is likely to regret going to court just out of principle or revenge.

Oh, and once you win the case and want to get paid, the process of seizing assets is an entirely new and tiresome battle, it is not as easy as it sounds.

There is a very good reason why most locals tend to settle their disputes out of court (with a gun), they know perfectly well how dysfunctional the justice system is.

Edited November 23, 2013 by monkeycountry

[sustento]

"Going the legal way will not only take much time but will cost most probably more than the debt owed, so not worth it."

​Here in the UK I have twice taken debtors to court,

The UK legal system doesn't apply to Thailand...

[rgs2001uk]

If your contract is valid then taking the legal action can be done. Win in court, then seize the assets of the company. He will be responsible for the court costs and your legal fees if you win.

No he won't. If the OP wants to go to court, I suggest he talks to someone who has actually been to court in Thailand, and not just take advise from many here who think it works the same as in the west. It doesn't.

First of all, the reimbursed expenses such as legal fees are much much lower than the actual fees, the court has it's own rates which have nothing to do with actual rates. Secondly the case will take many years, no matter how trivial it is, so one is likely to regret going to court just out of principle or revenge.

Oh, and once you win the case and want to get paid, the process of seizing assets is an entirely new and tiresome battle, it is not as easy as it sounds.

There is a very good reason why most locals tend to settle their disputes out of court (with a gun), they know perfectly well how dysfunctional the justice system is.

the process of seizing assets

What assets?

Does anyone really think these people are daft enough to have anything in their own name?

There is a very good reason why most locals tend to settle their disputes out of court

In Bkk, 30% is the going rate to pay for debt recovery. no questions asked.

I watched one night as a Thai guy went crazy after he realised he had been ripped off, within two minutes it was resolved after a phone call was made, the following day the same guy was given 70k baht in cash.

For many of these Thais its not the money its the loss of face that matters

[KittenKong]

No he won't. If the OP wants to go to court, I suggest he talks to someone who has actually been to court in Thailand, and not just take advise from many here who think it works the same as in the west. It doesn't.

First of all, the reimbursed expenses such as legal fees are much much lower than the actual fees, the court has it's own rates which have nothing to do with actual rates. Secondly the case will take many years, no matter how trivial it is, so one is likely to regret going to court just out of principle or revenge.

Maybe not.

I have friends who are currently doing battle in the Thai courts with their bank over a fraudulent ATM withdrawal and according to their lawyer all their costs will be paid. I dont know the details.

And maybe this particular case could be heard by the new Pattaya "tourist court" that reckons to deal with things within a few days? Surely worth investigating.

In many instances dishonourable people will actually capitulate as soon as proper legal proceedings are started in order to avoid having their name dragged through the mud, so that's worth thinking about also.

And personally no matter how long it took or how much it cost me, I would never regret taking a scumbag to court if he deserved it. This is what principle is all about.

[WaywardWind]

Initial questions should be:

What are the contract provisions concerning your recourse in the event of buyer's default?

Is the business held in the individual name of the buyer, a corporate entity, or a nominee?

Same question for his other assets?

[jimmybcool]

I have several friends who were conned in a similar fashion a few years ago. The guy was a total crook. He owned a gogo bar and sold 10% shares to tourists. Who of course would never see anything for their investment. In fact he didn't really know them all that well after he got their money.

He upped the ante from there borrowing money from his friends with real shares of his gogo bar (which at this time is now owned by one of my friends), and post dated checks, and other promises.

He got further in and they chased him legally and in other ways until he did a runner. Spent his last year or so in the boonies of Isaan and died from I think a combination of too much cheap liquor, cigarettes and TB. My friends were never made whole again.

In the process they tried legal means and it is not easy in Thailand. I will only say this. If you can get a number of people he has conned to work together you might get somewhere. Alone the thai courts move so slowly and don't care. As an example of don't care, at one point one of my friends had tracked down this scumbag who had a warrant out for his arrest. he told the cops. They said unless HE was willing to pay money to have him arrested and transported down to Pattaya that they didn't care.

The only thing that the legal system cared about were the post dated checks. Bad checks they enforce. Except again only in that they make him a criminal not that they will go get him and jail him.

These dirtbags know the system can be worked and delayed and ultimately ignored by them while the honest people finally give up. I wish you luck in whatever direction you choose. But sadly I suspect you will never get a penny of your money back.

[Bung]

I would be careful with challenging this guy. People who get away with this sort of thing often have the police in their pocket and you may find the tables turned on you.

Best is to get as much information about him as you can first. A lawyer would help to see if your contract would hold up or has too many holes in it

[cornishcarlos]

Like I said before, team up with the guy that is owed 2mil, you chip in 1/5 of the cost and have the guy permanently prevented from scamming anyone else....

Cheaper than lawyers and safer for you !!

[xen]

If it was a running business he was the one who was the runner......................................sorry

[Tolley]

How much are we talking about?

If it is only a couple of hundred thousand baht then write it off and move on.

Dont you have someone of influence who can help you?

Rule of thumb in Thailand if are doing business is make sure you have an influential thai you can call on should you need them.

Does an Influential Thai cost less than a lawyer?

Not only could it end up costing you more in the long run, there's always the "my dad's bigger than your dad" scenario!!

Lawyer you are having a laff arent you?

That would be just throwing good money after bad.

Considering it is a farang I doubt whether he will be gazumped by someone with bigger influence.

Having said that i take your general point but that is the way it is in thailand.

If you go into business without any back up here you leave yourself very vulnerable.

[Constantinople]

Pattaya is a cut throat city there's no doubt about that. Some people would sell their granny's teeth just to stay here a bit longer. Many Expats in Spain were the same desperados ripping each other off just to keep the dream alive for a few more months.

Anyway I personaly wouldn't let it go, not 10 grand English no way in a million years. That S.O.A.B has to pay one way or another, even sell the debt if you have to.

Whatever you do, DO NOT let him get away with it.

Man up.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Constantinople

[nonthaburial]

How much are we talking about?

If it is only a couple of hundred thousand baht then write it off and move on.

Dont you have someone of influence who can help you?

Rule of thumb in Thailand if are doing business is make sure you have an influential thai you can call on should you need them.

I take your point, but I wouldnt make the assumption that the OP sees 'a couple of hundred thousand baht' as a trivial amount. I guess it all comes down the cost of getting (any of) it back. Have to wonder if our bad debtor would have tried the same thing with a Thai, knowing exactly what the consequences would have been ....

Up to this thread, I cannot see any mention of the nationality of the person mentioned.

[blackman]

How much are we talking about?

If it is only a couple of hundred thousand baht then write it off and move on.

Dont you have someone of influence who can help you?

Rule of thumb in Thailand if are doing business is make sure you have an influential thai you can call on should you need them.

I take your point, but I wouldnt make the assumption that the OP sees 'a couple of hundred thousand baht' as a trivial amount. I guess it all comes down the cost of getting (any of) it back. Have to wonder if our bad debtor would have tried the same thing with a Thai, knowing exactly what the consequences would have been ....

Up to this thread, I cannot see any mention of the nationality of the person mentioned.

he is british

[jdinasia]

If your contract is valid then taking the legal action can be done. Win in court, then seize the assets of the company. He will be responsible for the court costs and your legal fees if you win.

No he won't. If the OP wants to go to court, I suggest he talks to someone who has actually been to court in Thailand, and not just take advise from many here who think it works the same as in the west. It doesn't.

First of all, the reimbursed expenses such as legal fees are much much lower than the actual fees, the court has it's own rates which have nothing to do with actual rates. Secondly the case will take many years, no matter how trivial it is, so one is likely to regret going to court just out of principle or revenge.

Oh, and once you win the case and want to get paid, the process of seizing assets is an entirely new and tiresome battle, it is not as easy as it sounds.

There is a very good reason why most locals tend to settle their disputes out of court (with a gun), they know perfectly well how dysfunctional the justice system is.

I have a rather large folder sitting on my desk, from having taken a business to court that failed to make payments owed to me, and then having gotten "bang kap kadii" to seize the company assets. It took 6 months from the date I won in court (settlement -- so no right to appeal) to seize the assets and then get the court to auction them.

Edit --- worth note that I in the suit I asked for everything ... (the entire company) and the terms of the settlement were only the debt, the legal fees paid, and interest of 7% -- I was advosed to settle from the beginning to prevent up to 5 years of appeals.

Edited November 24, 2013 by jdinasia

[Gsxrnz]

Next time, have the contract written by a lawyer domiciled in the country of the borrower as though the debt existed in that country. The laws of that country therefore apply. Situations like yours are therefore easier to handle.

You can structure it so that payments can be multi-currency etc, payable ayywhere in the world. You should also have the borrowers lawyer acknowledge that the contract is legal and binding, and that you are a preferential creditor in case of default, bankruptcy and/or death.

It's no harder than doing it locally, you still pay legal fees, and you will also have a proper Purchase/Sale Agreement plus a Vendors Loan Agreement. I've done it several times and no problems - even if the borrower dies, you still have a claim on his Estate. Interest should be mandatory in any debt by the way.

As to your present case - either name the SOB, or at least give clues such that we TV members can conclude who it is and spread the word.

If you can't get the cash off him, take it out in revenge through the employment of some locals (covertly, and anonymously of course - these things can be handled over the phone and an ATM deposit). I'm sure he's got a face that he values.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Gsxrnz

[KittenKong]

Edit --- worth note that I in the suit I asked for everything ... (the entire company) and the terms of the settlement were only the debt, the legal fees paid, and interest of 7% -- I was advosed to settle from the beginning to prevent up to 5 years of appeals.

Why would you expect to be awarded more than the amount of the debt plus costs plus interest?

[Sealbash]

Why would you sign ownership over before receiving payment in full?

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Rimmer]

Off topic post removed, the OP wants help recovering his money not making someone life a misery

[tolsti]

I'm sure that you didn't actually sign the business over to this guy until the final payment had been made...... didn't you?

[wooloomooloo]

Why would you sign ownership over before receiving payment in full?

I know a fella that recently did just that with his business in the UK. He's now in LOS and the outstanding balance remains unpaid and the debtor refuses to answer the phone.

I've informed him that he's wasting his time making further calls and he should proceed to instruct his solicitor to issue a letter stating that he will proceed to County Court unless a response is received within seven days.

Yes, he's an idiot and I've told him as much, but too late now and he needs to wise up. If he gets the judgement, they'll have no business left if they fail to settle. Simple.

[Asiacat]

I lent an ex colleague a small amount (B5000) as he had run out of money. He asked to borrow it for 3 days.

Two weeks later he returned to the States promising to pay me as soon as he could.

He did maintain email contact for a few weeks saying soon. After I sent him several reminders he threatened me with retribution of I didn't stop hassling him stating he had Thai friends in Patts who had agreed to take care of me and he didn't mean settling the loan.

Seventeen months later I haven't seen a single baht of the money returned.

Be very careful when lending money or offering credit in Pattaya.

[A1Str8]

 I lent an ex colleague a small amount (B5000) as he had run out of money. He asked to borrow it for 3 days.

 

Two weeks later he returned to the States promising to pay me as soon as he could.

 

He did maintain email contact for a few weeks saying soon. After I sent him several reminders he threatened me with retribution of I didn't stop hassling him stating he had Thai friends in Patts who had agreed to take care of me and he didn't mean settling the loan.

 

Seventeen months later I haven't seen a single baht of the money returned.

 

Be very careful when lending money or offering credit in Pattaya.

 

Wow the p_ssy boy even threatened you. And he said he didnt mean to settle the loan. I would just tell him i was not interested in what he meant and what not. Just come back and see me instead of sending his thai girlfriends after running back home. I would mean to tear him apart. I can't stand hoes like this.

[lemoncake]

Do not want to give wrong advice but i believe OP has full legal right to take back the business, as buyer has failed to complete the purchase and breached the contract.

Perhaps lawyer along with police officer, can accompany OP to the premises to take possession of it and remove the buyer.

If buyer wants to keep the business, give him 7 or 14 days to pay in full plus all "legal" costs or buyer is out of pocket and without a business.

PS, Happy to recommend a lawyer with police "friends" to assist, i believe he the lawyer also has some military "friends" who can assist.

Edited November 24, 2013 by lemoncake

[MrWorldwide]

I lent an ex colleague a small amount (B5000) as he had run out of money. He asked to borrow it for 3 days.

Two weeks later he returned to the States promising to pay me as soon as he could.

He did maintain email contact for a few weeks saying soon. After I sent him several reminders he threatened me with retribution of I didn't stop hassling him stating he had Thai friends in Patts who had agreed to take care of me and he didn't mean settling the loan.

Seventeen months later I haven't seen a single baht of the money returned.

Be very careful when lending money or offering credit in Pattaya.

Thanks for your honesty - in the grand scheme of things, 5K isnt worth losing any sleep over. Compared to the OP, you got off very lightly, and I pity the poor fool who asks you for a loan in future

[Basil B]

AC just think it a good deed, by contributing to a one way ticket home for one of the many ******* that Pattaya could well do without.