Scotland to become independent in March 2016 if referendum passes

[Basil B]

Another plus point: It would banish forever those plaintive squeals to admit the Old Firm to the Premiership.

....then we may see the team from the town where the last declaration of independence was signed rise to win the SPL.....what a great day that would be!

One can live in hope re the Red Lichties...

Actually the town of the Smokie would be hard hit by independence as 45 Commando would be relocated south. Beware what you wish for...

But as you keep pointing out we wouldn't have to adhere to EU fishing quotas.

No, but you will not be able to fish in EU waters, and you will have to defend your fishing grounds from intrusion, not forgetting the Icelanders may see this as an opportunity to expand their claim on the North Sea.

[Chicog]

No, but you will not be able to fish in EU waters, and you will have to defend your fishing grounds from intrusion, not forgetting the Icelanders may see this as an opportunity to expand their claim on the North Sea.

And the Koreans.

[nontabury]

Can we English people have a referendum to find out if we want Scotland in the United Kingdom?

How can one country have a referendum about another country's fate???? This just about sums up the English attitude to the Union.

- England could of course have a referendum as to remaining in the Union - just the same as Scotland.

Ok, can we the English, Welsh, and them from NI have a referendum to leave the Union and form another without the awkward Scot's?

For some unknown reason the English have never had the opportunity to vote on separation from

Scotland, maybe those in power realised that the English would vote YES. Could it be the same With their reluctance to grant the people's wish to vote on whether to withdraw from the EC.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[smokie36]

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0042/00423466.pdf

I suggest you read this and digest what it says. The UK Government is currently avoiding this discussion on purely political grounds.

So, a link to a paper from the 'Yes' campaign and we are to take it as Holy Writ!

As far as the UK government is concerned; there is nothing to discuss; it's a non issue. All the major parties have made that perfectly clear.

Scotland will not keep the pound just because Salmond wants to.

The UK government will not enter into a currency union with an independent Scotland just because Salmond wants it to.

The EU will not allow an independent Scotland to join without adopting the Euro just because Salmond wants it to.

Salmond is attempting to hoodwink the Scottish people that he will get his way on everything. He seems to have been successful in this with some; but I wonder how they will feel if Scotland does become independent and the realpolitik then bites Salmond in the arse.

Edited to add quote.

Dear oh dear....it was a completely independent study into the best way forward for an independent Scotland...and the rest of the UK.

What part of independent don't you understand?

[7by7]

From the Scottish Government website

The Fiscal Commission Working Group (FCWG) is a sub-group of the Council of Economic Advisers which is helping to shape the development of a robust fiscal and macroeconomic framework for an independent Scotland.

Very independent; not!

[Skint]

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0042/00423466.pdf

I suggest you read this and digest what it says. The UK Government is currently avoiding this discussion on purely political grounds.

So, a link to a paper from the 'Yes' campaign and we are to take it as Holy Writ!

As far as the UK government is concerned; there is nothing to discuss; it's a non issue. All the major parties have made that perfectly clear.

Scotland will not keep the pound just because Salmond wants to.

The UK government will not enter into a currency union with an independent Scotland just because Salmond wants it to.

The EU will not allow an independent Scotland to join without adopting the Euro just because Salmond wants it to.

Salmond is attempting to hoodwink the Scottish people that he will get his way on everything. He seems to have been successful in this with some; but I wonder how they will feel if Scotland does become independent and the realpolitik then bites Salmond in the arse.

Edited to add quote.

You need to read the Edinburgh agreement on the way they will handle the yes vote, this is the agreement that Cameron and salmond signed.

[7by7]

The Edinburgh Agreement

Agreement between the United Kingdom Government and the Scottish Government on a referendum on independence for Scotland

Edinburgh, 15 October 2012

The United Kingdom Government and the Scottish Government have agreed to work together to ensure that a referendum on Scottish independence can take place.

The governments are agreed that the referendum should:
have a clear legal base
be legislated for by the Scottish Parliament
be conducted so as to command the confidence of parliaments, governments and people
deliver a fair test and a decisive expression of the views of people in Scotland and a result that everyone will respect

The governments have agreed to promote an Order in Council under Section 30 of the Scotland Act 1998 in the United Kingdom and Scottish Parliaments to allow a single-question referendum on Scottish independence to be held before the end of 2014. The Order will put it beyond doubt that the Scottish Parliament can legislate for that referendum.

It will then be for the Scottish Government to promote legislation in the Scottish Parliament for a referendum on independence. The governments are agreed that the referendum should meet the highest standards of fairness, transparency and propriety, informed by consultation and independent expert advice. The referendum legislation will set out:
the date of the referendum
the franchise
the wording of the question
rules on campaign financing
other rules for the conduct of the referendum

The details of the agreement between the governments are set out in the following memorandum and draft Order, which form part of this agreement.

The Rt. Hon. David Cameron MP Prime Minister

The Rt. Hon. Alex Salmond MSP First Minister of Scotland

The Rt. Hon. Michael Moore MP Secretary of State for Scotland

Nicola Sturgeon MSP Deputy First Minister of Scotland

Can't see anything there about currency union, nor anything which says Salmond will get his way on everything!

Edited March 6, 2014 by 7by7

[folium]

Another plus point: It would banish forever those plaintive squeals to admit the Old Firm to the Premiership.

....then we may see the team from the town where the last declaration of independence was signed rise to win the SPL.....what a great day that would be!

One can live in hope re the Red Lichties...

Actually the town of the Smokie would be hard hit by independence as 45 Commando would be relocated south. Beware what you wish for...

But as you keep pointing out we wouldn't have to adhere to EU fishing quotas.

Huh?

When did I mention fishing quotas, EU or otherwise. I tend to bang on about geopolitical and military stuff!

A plate of Smokies though would do nicely...

Seriously though the closure of RM Condor would do your hometown no favours. And independence would very likely see that happen.

[piersbeckett]

If Scots vote for independence it'll be a field day for lawyers and IMHO the whole idea boils down to simply the best ticket for Salmond to campaign on.

Many English go 'up there' for the scenery and many Scots live and work in England (a great deal in the media and IT) if they haven't gone overseas - I don't believe the will of the general public is there for true independence and will Connery, Murray and other wealthy Scots, many of whom live in the USA, want to bail them out if it all goes tits-up; being part of the UK hasn't hampered them?

Better to keep and work to improve by representation in the present parliament in England the lot of those Scots that live in Scotland. I know the Scot is proud but Scotland's international reputation, I believe is deservedly good, as part of the UK - is it really necessary to go to all the effort and expense for 'the sake of olde Salmond' and to be able to say, "we govern ourselves, you know; we're going for Utopia"?

[OJAS]

.....I do have some questions that you so far have failed to address or answer, I will give them to you one at a

time to save you from becoming confused.

Have you come up with any valid legal reason why an independent Scotland cannot use the pound as its currency??

I am not looking for what some politician thinks or the ramblings of some journalist, just a straightforward legal reason

why Scotland cannot continue using the pound after independence??

A link to your source would be helpful.

You really should read people's posts before criticising them. I have already answered that question!

Many years ago, the Irish pound was tied to Sterling and in many parts of both the Republic and Northern Ireland shops etc. would accept either currency on a one to one basis. But when the Republic joined the ERM and the UK didn't the Irish pound and Sterling were no longer tied to each other and so ordinary people either side of the border were reluctant to accept the other currency as they didn't know the exchange rate anymore. Even more so when the Republic joined the Euro.

I say this to show that you are, in a way, correct. There is no legal reason why the people of an independent Scotland cannot keep Sterling, spend Sterling in their shops etc.

But, unless the remainder of the UK agrees, which as has been repeatedly said is very unlikely, it will not be the Scottish currency; it will not be a currency union. It will be the UK's currency which Scotland uses.

Therefore the Scottish government will not have any control over it. Fiscal policy etc. will be set by Westminster. If Scotland uses the UK's currency then it will have to bow down to the UK's fiscal policies.

How is that independence?

Will you know answer that question?

Easy answer is it is independence because we as an independent nation will have decided which

currency we wish to adopt whether or not we will have control over it, that's how it is independence.

Anything else 7??

How an earth can you possibly claim Scotland to be “independent” of something it has absolutely no control over? What could Salmond do if the Bank Of England or Westminster Chancellor Of The Exchequer pulled the GBP money supply north of Hadrian’s Wall? Absolutely sweet FA apart from re-introducing prescription charges among a whole host of other things, which would need to be way in excess of those levied in England so as to make a worthwhile contribution towards plugging the hole in Scotland’s finances. Bet that would make him and his SNP henchmen extremely popular with the Scottish electorate!

If your idea of monetary union between England and Scotland means that I as an English taxpayer shall be expected to continue subsidising free prescriptions to Scots after they have been granted their “independence”, then I want absolutely no part of it, thank you very much. Despite now living in Thailand, I am still taxed on my English-generated income here by HMRC!

In any case, why do you appear so obsessed with retaining the GBP for Scotland after “independence”? Surely Scotland would be far better off (in the short term, at least) adopting its own national currency (which would presumably be called the Jock)? Salmond could then continue dishing out free prescriptions to his fellow countrymen to his heart’s content – at least until Scotland is eventually bailed out by the IMF Greece-style, of course! Or until Germany comes to the rescue after Scotland has joined the Eurozone!!

What I also find puzzling about this whole business is why certain elements in Scotland aspire to be “independent” of England & the rest of the UK on the one hand, yet are more than happy for Scottish interests to continue being trampled over by the bureaucratic Brussels super-state (aka the EU) on the other. Looks strongly like a case of inconsistency and double-standards to me (I shall stop short of using the “h” word)!

I look forward to receiving the typically dismissive, arrogant, condescending & patronising lecture which will doubtless be coming my way in reply.

Edited March 7, 2014 by OJAS

[phuketjock]

You really should read people's posts before criticising them. I have already answered that question!

Many years ago, the Irish pound was tied to Sterling and in many parts of both the Republic and Northern Ireland shops etc. would accept either currency on a one to one basis. But when the Republic joined the ERM and the UK didn't the Irish pound and Sterling were no longer tied to each other and so ordinary people either side of the border were reluctant to accept the other currency as they didn't know the exchange rate anymore. Even more so when the Republic joined the Euro.

I say this to show that you are, in a way, correct. There is no legal reason why the people of an independent Scotland cannot keep Sterling, spend Sterling in their shops etc.

But, unless the remainder of the UK agrees, which as has been repeatedly said is very unlikely, it will not be the Scottish currency; it will not be a currency union. It will be the UK's currency which Scotland uses.

Therefore the Scottish government will not have any control over it. Fiscal policy etc. will be set by Westminster. If Scotland uses the UK's currency then it will have to bow down to the UK's fiscal policies.

How is that independence?

Will you know answer that question?

Easy answer is it is independence because we as an independent nation will have decided which

currency we wish to adopt whether or not we will have control over it, that's how it is independence.

Anything else 7??

How an earth can you possibly claim Scotland to be “independent” of something it has absolutely no control over? What could Salmond do if the Bank Of England or Westminster Chancellor Of The Exchequer pulled the GBP money supply north of Hadrian’s Wall? Absolutely sweet FA apart from re-introducing prescription charges among a whole host of other things, which would need to be way in excess of those levied in England so as to make a worthwhile contribution towards plugging the hole in Scotland’s finances. Bet that would make him and his SNP henchmen extremely popular with the Scottish electorate!

If your idea of monetary union between England and Scotland means that I as an English taxpayer shall be expected to continue subsidising free prescriptions to Scots after they have been granted their “independence”, then I want absolutely no part of it, thank you very much. Despite now living in Thailand, I am still taxed on my English-generated income here by HMRC!

In any case, why do you appear so obsessed with retaining the GBP for Scotland after “independence”? Surely Scotland would be far better off (in the short term, at least) adopting its own national currency (which would presumably be called the Jock)? Salmond could then continue dishing out free prescriptions to his fellow countrymen to his heart’s content – at least until Scotland is eventually bailed out by the IMF Greece-style, of course! Or until Germany comes to the rescue after Scotland has joined the Eurozone!!

What I also find puzzling about this whole business is why certain elements in Scotland aspire to be “independent” of England & the rest of the UK on the one hand, yet are more than happy for Scottish interests to continue being trampled over by the bureaucratic Brussels super-state (aka the EU) on the other. Looks strongly like a case of inconsistency and double-standards to me (I shall stop short of using the “h” word)!

I look forward to receiving the typically dismissive, arrogant, condescending & patronising lecture which will doubtless be coming my way in reply.

I wonder why the superior and arrogant tone of your post tends to give me the impression that you are

English if not by birth most definitely by attitude, hmm.

Please be assured that I am in no way obsessed by an independent Scotland retaining the pound as its currency

on the contrary I was merely pointing out that if we wished to do so we could. What will actually happen after

independence will be decided by the government of Scotland at that time.

I too am sadly paying the UK government tax on my Scottish generated UK income and also on my frozen UK pension

here in Thailand so your situation is not unique, there are many UK pensioners here in Thailand who are paying UK tax

on their frozen UK pensions!!

You may have missed a few earlier posts pointing out that apart from the South East of England Scotland is the only region

in the UK that is contributing more to the pot than it takes out and has been for some years now so your notion of an

independent Scotland requiring any bail out from Brussels or anyone else is but a fanciful notion of your rather fertile imagination.

I have to ask why it is so very important to the UK government and people like you are so adamant that Scotland should

stay in the UK, could it possibly have something to do with my previous paragraph and of course north sea oil?

[7by7]

I look forward to receiving the typically dismissive, arrogant, condescending & patronising lecture which will doubtless be coming my way in reply.

Didn't take long; did it?

PJ's problem, as all his posts show, is that he has swallowed the propaganda completely but has no arguments of his own to back it up.

Indeed, the only evidence he can supply to back up what arguments he does present is that self same propaganda! I

His stance is "It is so, because the blessed Alex says it is so!"

PJ, I'm still waiting for your next question.

[transam]

I was wondering , considering the very small tax paying populous of Scotland, where as the Union has a vast tax paying populous, is the SNP relying on oil revenue to fund their ideas. ?

PS. I know nothing so just open my eyes here.

[phuketjock]

I was wondering , considering the very small tax paying populous of Scotland, where as the Union has a vast tax paying populous, is the SNP relying on oil revenue to fund their ideas. ?

PS. I know nothing so just open my eyes here.

This may assist in opening your eyes transam

http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/10-facts-about-scotlands-oil-and-independence/

[phuketjock]

I look forward to receiving the typically dismissive, arrogant, condescending & patronising lecture which will doubtless be coming my way in reply.

Didn't take long; did it?

PJ's problem, as all his posts show, is that he has swallowed the propaganda completely but has no arguments of his own to back it up.

Indeed, the only evidence he can supply to back up what arguments he does present is that self same propaganda! I

His stance is "It is so, because the blessed Alex says it is so!"

PJ, I'm still waiting for your next question.

Ah 7 are you now official rep for all the " NO " people on the thread?

On the contrary 7 I have based all of my posts on facts and have diligently posted all my sources

whereas you have based almost all your assertions on politicians rants or journalistic fancy and

fancifull notions conjoured up by your vivid imagination.

I should tell you that I have little time for politicians of any marque Salmond included but if he gets

the job done and Scotland gains independence he will do for me.

I am afraid I have given up on asking you any more questions because you just don't have any

answers, that are of any relevance.

[transam]

I was wondering , considering the very small tax paying populous of Scotland, where as the Union has a vast tax paying populous, is the SNP relying on oil revenue to fund their ideas. ?

PS. I know nothing so just open my eyes here.

This may assist in opening your eyes transam

http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/10-facts-about-scotlands-oil-and-independence/

Sooo, if there was no oil would Scotland still want to be independent ?, could they be independent without the vast taxpaying English and Welsh folks help.?

[phuketjock]

Are you sure that all the arrogant people live south of Hadrian's wall?.

I can assure you that a larger % of the English population want separation than do the Scott's, why do you think that is so ?.

You keep on harping on about the input to the national coffers of the North Sea oil for the last 30-40 yrs, thus meaning that the Scottish area has put slightly more into the pot than it takes out, now Explain why there was no surge for separation in the proceeding 260 yrs, during which time, the Scott's took out far more than they contributed, unless of course you can prove me wrong on this point.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

And you keep banging on about the English wanting separation more than the Scots, well go ahead

petition your government for a referendum on English independence, but don't hold your breath mate.

[phuketjock]

I was wondering , considering the very small tax paying populous of Scotland, where as the Union has a vast tax paying populous, is the SNP relying on oil revenue to fund their ideas. ?

PS. I know nothing so just open my eyes here.

This may assist in opening your eyes transam

http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/10-facts-about-scotlands-oil-and-independence/

Sooo, if there was no oil would Scotland still want to be independent ?, could they be independent without the vast taxpaying English and Welsh folks help.?

Did you miss the part where the English, apart from the South East, and the Welsh and Northern Irish do not contribute

as much as they take out and Scotland puts more in to the pot than it takes out??

[transam]

I was wondering , considering the very small tax paying populous of Scotland, where as the Union has a vast tax paying populous, is the SNP relying on oil revenue to fund their ideas. ?

PS. I know nothing so just open my eyes here.

This may assist in opening your eyes transam

http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/10-facts-about-scotlands-oil-and-independence/

Sooo, if there was no oil would Scotland still want to be independent ?, could they be independent without the vast taxpaying English and Welsh folks help.?

Did you miss the part where the English, apart from the South East, and the Welsh and Northern Irish do not contribute

as much as they take out and Scotland puts more in to the pot than it takes out??

Is that via oil revenue ?

Edited March 7, 2014 by transam

[transam]

Can I have an answer to the above question........

[phuketjock]

This may assist in opening your eyes transam

http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/10-facts-about-scotlands-oil-and-independence/

Sooo, if there was no oil would Scotland still want to be independent ?, could they be independent without the vast taxpaying English and Welsh folks help.?

Did you miss the part where the English, apart from the South East, and the Welsh and Northern Irish do not contribute

as much as they take out and Scotland puts more in to the pot than it takes out??

Is that via oil revenue ?

Your question is irrelevant Scotland has oil and will have for many years to come, as I said before to

to ignore oil revenues is nothing more than a distracting red herring.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2013/04/BalanceSheet120413

You may find this site useful for information on Scotlands contribution in the last 30 years.

[StreetCowboy]

 

This may assist in opening your eyes transam

http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/10-facts-about-scotlands-oil-and-independence/

Sooo, if there was no oil would Scotland still want to be independent ?, could they be independent without the vast taxpaying English and Welsh folks help.?

Did you miss the part where the English, apart from the South East, and the Welsh and Northern Irish do not contribute

as much as they take out and Scotland puts more in to the pot than it takes out??

Is that via oil revenue ?

Your question is irrelevant Scotland has oil and will have for many years to come, as I said before to

to ignore oil revenues is nothing more than a distracting red herring.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2013/04/BalanceSheet120413

You may find this site useful for information on Scotlands contribution in the last 30 years.

 

It would seem sensible to assign the debt in accordance with the saleable assets, so perhaps the debt should be tied to the share of mineral wealth taken by each country.

Or is "Our oil, your debt"?

[transam]

That doesn't answer my question. If there were no oil, would the SNP still want independence as the SE of England would be taking care of them ?

[smokie36]

I look forward to receiving the typically dismissive, arrogant, condescending & patronising lecture which will doubtless be coming my way in reply.

Didn't take long; did it?

PJ's problem, as all his posts show, is that he has swallowed the propaganda completely but has no arguments of his own to back it up.

Indeed, the only evidence he can supply to back up what arguments he does present is that self same propaganda! I

His stance is "It is so, because the blessed Alex says it is so!"

PJ, I'm still waiting for your next question.

Ah 7 are you now official rep for all the " NO " people on the thread?

On the contrary 7 I have based all of my posts on facts and have diligently posted all my sources

whereas you have based almost all your assertions on politicians rants or journalistic fancy and

fancifull notions conjoured up by your vivid imagination.

I should tell you that I have little time for politicians of any marque Salmond included but if he gets

the job done and Scotland gains independence he will do for me.

I am afraid I have given up on asking you any more questions because you just don't have any

answers, that are of any relevance.

He has forgotten that the vote is not for the SNP...or for any other party or politician or personality.

It is a question over the future governance of Scotland.

Perhaps he thinks the Scottish voters are too stupid to realise this?

So on and on he goes trying to create a caricature of a politician who will be long gone soon....to be replaced by those who will take the new Scotland forward.

It must be an eye opener that we have the vision of this....unlike his English cronies!

[smokie36]

That doesn't answer my question. If there were no oil, would the SNP still want independence as the SE of England would be taking care of them ?

A bit leading there with your words transam.

The answer is an emphatic YES.....even if things were going to be tough in the first instance I would agree with independence for Scotland....we have our own way of thinking and it does not tally with the South of England's views.

Just look at the political divide between us in any general election and its quite apparent!

[phuketjock]

 

Your question is irrelevant Scotland has oil and will have for many years to come, as I said before to

to ignore oil revenues is nothing more than a distracting red herring.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2013/04/BalanceSheet120413

You may find this site useful for information on Scotlands contribution in the last 30 years.

 

It would seem sensible to assign the debt in accordance with the saleable assets, so perhaps the debt should be tied to the share of mineral wealth taken by each country.

Or is "Our oil, your debt"?

As noted in my link a subject to be discussed post a yes vote not for the likes of you or

me to decide. I'm afraid where politicians are concerned sense is rarely present.

[phuketjock]

That doesn't answer my question. If there were no oil, would the SNP still want independence as the SE of England would be taking care of them ?

I believe smokie has answered your question on my behalf.

YES, YES, YES to independence., nothing at all to do with the SNP or Alex Salmond!!!

[transam]

That doesn't answer my question. If there were no oil, would the SNP still want independence as the SE of England would be taking care of them ?

A bit leading there with your words transam.

The answer is an emphatic YES.....even if things were going to be tough in the first instance I would agree with independence for Scotland....we have our own way of thinking and it does not tally with the South of England's views.

Just look at the political divide between us in any general election and its quite apparent!

But, perhaps the SW, N, NE of England all think differently. So where do we go. Yeh the money is in the SE, but hey, if it wasn't we might all still be in tents. I can tell you that l think differently from folk in other parts of England, we even talk different, BUT, we all unite when it matters.

[uptheos]

Not only will Scotland be out of the EU so will the two SNP MEPs...

[along with two Labour, one Conservative and one Lib Dem]

Of those who lose their seats in Westminster and Brussels I can see many heading south, but then I do not think the SNP lot will get many votes.

I suppose many will also get kicked out of the upper too...

Don't want foreigners in Westminster.

Can't have a right honorable gentleman from Aberdeen, any more than we can have one from Gdansk.

[7by7]

I am afraid I have given up on asking you (7by7) any more questions because you just don't have any

answers, that are of any relevance.

Translation; you don't like the answers.

You say you don't care for Salmond; but you share his capacity for dismissing as irrelevant the awkward questions and facts which don't suit your position.

Like that verbose supporter of Scottish independence Sean Connery, you don't live in Scotland. So you, like he, can happily support independence in the sure knowledge that you wont have to suffer the consequences of a 'Yes' vote if (when) the proverbial hits the fan.

As for me, I have already stated that I consider the union to be greater than the sum of it's parts and that I think it will suffer if Scotland leaves; but the remainder of the union has far less to lose if that happens than Scotland does.

I have given many reasons for holding that opinion in many posts, that you choose to ignore rather than challenge those reasons is your problem, not mine.

I have also stated before that, being a democrat, I will support the decision of the Scottish people; even if they make the wrong one.