Scotland to become independent in March 2016 if referendum passes

[7by7]

(quote of 7by7 post 1283 removed to comply with forum software on number of quotes in a post)

Where did I use the word 'formal'?

You didn't, but it was implied as a formal currency union with the UK is what the Yes campaign, or at least the SNP, want.

I did point out that any use of the pound in an independent Scotland was not ideal, however for practicalities' sake, it makes much more sense for both Scotland and England to continue to use it post independence.

What about Wales and Northern Ireland? You keep forgetting about them!

If businesses in an independent Scotland continue to accept Sterling, much as businesses in the RoI used to do, that is up to them. But it wont be a currency union, formal or informal.

A country's (or crown dependency etc) is NOT defined by its currency. So your query, 'is that how you envision the future of Scotland' is utter nonsense. The future of Scotland is far brighter with independence than it would be if it is continued to be bled dry by a corrupt Westminster elite, whether it be blue, red or orange.

Yet you want what you call 'the corrupt Westminster elite' to have control over all fiscal policy in an independent Scotland!

How strange.

BTW, if you think that Scottish politicians are any less corrupt or elitist than those from the rest of the UK, or any other nationality, then you are sadly very much mistaken.

[7by7]

Indeed, SC.

Yet another example of the Yes campaign cherry picking from, and twisting, information for their propaganda.

They really are getting more and more desperate in their excuses for losing the referendum; and it hasn't even been held yet!

Yes, you have made variants of this statement on several occasions - repeating it ad nauseum does not make it right. It just makes you look more desperate.

Then why do the Yes campaign publish so many articles which cherry pick what suits them and ignores what doesn't?

Why do they keep making unfounded accusations of bias against all and sundry?

[RuamRudy]

Yet you want what you call 'the corrupt Westminster elite' to have control over all fiscal policy in an independent Scotland!

How strange.

BTW, if you think that Scottish politicians are any less corrupt or elitist than those from the rest of the UK, or any other nationality, then you are sadly very much mistaken.

This hyperbole of yours is getting out of control, or do you genuinely not understand that which you write about? So a currency union, or even the Jocks using pounds unapproved amounts to us handing over 'all fiscal policy'? How strange that you come to that conclusion.

Of course I don't believe that we Scots are above the nefarious dealings of London. We have had our fair share of parasites and cheats, and there are still many who are actively working to maintain the status quo because it benefits them to remain in the union.

But where are the changes to the system? What has improved in government since, for example, the expenses scandal? Even last month the MPs rallied round one of their own and rejected the imposition made on her by an independent body to repay the money she stole from the taxpayer. Nothing has changed - and nothing will change without something radical to kick start it.

In an independent Scotland we have the opportunity to create something new. I do not claim that it will be perfect, but it can only be better than that which we are shackled to now.

[RuamRudy]

Indeed, SC.

Yet another example of the Yes campaign cherry picking from, and twisting, information for their propaganda.

They really are getting more and more desperate in their excuses for losing the referendum; and it hasn't even been held yet!

Yes, you have made variants of this statement on several occasions - repeating it ad nauseum does not make it right. It just makes you look more desperate.

Then why do the Yes campaign publish so many articles which cherry pick what suits them and ignores what doesn't?

Why do they keep making unfounded accusations of bias against all and sundry?

That is the nature of politics - and if you do not see this coming from the No campaign, you are a either wilfully ignoring it or blind.

Read Craig Murray's article about the manufactured No Borders campaign and tell me that the No campaign is playing a gentleman's game.

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/05/the-acanchi-effect/

[transam]

Yet you want what you call 'the corrupt Westminster elite' to have control over all fiscal policy in an independent Scotland!

How strange.

BTW, if you think that Scottish politicians are any less corrupt or elitist than those from the rest of the UK, or any other nationality, then you are sadly very much mistaken.

This hyperbole of yours is getting out of control, or do you genuinely not understand that which you write about? So a currency union, or even the Jocks using pounds unapproved amounts to us handing over 'all fiscal policy'? How strange that you come to that conclusion.

Of course I don't believe that we Scots are above the nefarious dealings of London. We have had our fair share of parasites and cheats, and there are still many who are actively working to maintain the status quo because it benefits them to remain in the union.

But where are the changes to the system? What has improved in government since, for example, the expenses scandal? Even last month the MPs rallied round one of their own and rejected the imposition made on her by an independent body to repay the money she stole from the taxpayer. Nothing has changed - and nothing will change without something radical to kick start it.

In an independent Scotland we have the opportunity to create something new. I do not claim that it will be perfect, but it can only be better than that which we are shackled to now.

And you think Scot politicians

somehow will be oh so squeaky clean different ?.......

[RuamRudy]

Yet you want what you call 'the corrupt Westminster elite' to have control over all fiscal policy in an independent Scotland!

How strange.

BTW, if you think that Scottish politicians are any less corrupt or elitist than those from the rest of the UK, or any other nationality, then you are sadly very much mistaken.

This hyperbole of yours is getting out of control, or do you genuinely not understand that which you write about? So a currency union, or even the Jocks using pounds unapproved amounts to us handing over 'all fiscal policy'? How strange that you come to that conclusion.

Of course I don't believe that we Scots are above the nefarious dealings of London. We have had our fair share of parasites and cheats, and there are still many who are actively working to maintain the status quo because it benefits them to remain in the union.

But where are the changes to the system? What has improved in government since, for example, the expenses scandal? Even last month the MPs rallied round one of their own and rejected the imposition made on her by an independent body to repay the money she stole from the taxpayer. Nothing has changed - and nothing will change without something radical to kick start it.

In an independent Scotland we have the opportunity to create something new. I do not claim that it will be perfect, but it can only be better than that which we are shackled to now.

And you think Scot politicians

somehow will be oh so squeaky clean different ?.......

Please read the second paragraph of my post.

[transam]

I read it, my point is how will they be different in an independent Scotland ?

Can we honestly say that ANY gov has come up with the promises they spout. In my life time I cannot think of one..So, why will King Salmonds lot be different.....?

[StreetCowboy]

Yet you want what you call 'the corrupt Westminster elite' to have control over all fiscal policy in an independent Scotland!

How strange.

BTW, if you think that Scottish politicians are any less corrupt or elitist than those from the rest of the UK, or any other nationality, then you are sadly very much mistaken.

This hyperbole of yours is getting out of control, or do you genuinely not understand that which you write about? So a currency union, or even the Jocks using pounds unapproved amounts to us handing over 'all fiscal policy'? How strange that you come to that conclusion.

Of course I don't believe that we Scots are above the nefarious dealings of London. We have had our fair share of parasites and cheats, and there are still many who are actively working to maintain the status quo because it benefits them to remain in the union.

But where are the changes to the system? What has improved in government since, for example, the expenses scandal? Even last month the MPs rallied round one of their own and rejected the imposition made on her by an independent body to repay the money she stole from the taxpayer. Nothing has changed - and nothing will change without something radical to kick start it.

In an independent Scotland we have the opportunity to create something new. I do not claim that it will be perfect, but it can only be better than that which we are shackled to now.

And you think Scot politicians

somehow will be oh so squeaky clean different ?.......

Definetley. All Scots politicians will be paragons of duty and virtue - except for those that set foot in Westminster, of course. They become scurrilous rogues, just like foreign politicians

SC

[7by7]

This hyperbole of yours is getting out of control, or do you genuinely not understand that which you write about?

Now, now; no need for you to descend to the level of the man from Wigan. I thought you were above that.

So a currency union, or even the Jocks using pounds unapproved amounts to us handing over 'all fiscal policy'? How strange that you come to that conclusion.

If an independent Scotland uses Sterling, whether in a formal currency union or not, how will they have control over their own fiscal policy?

Not hyperbole; a genuine question to which I would very much like an answer. Go on; educate me.

Of course I don't believe that we Scots are above the nefarious dealings of London. We have had our fair share of parasites and cheats, and there are still many who are actively working to maintain the status quo because it benefits them to remain in the union.

But where are the changes to the system? What has improved in government since, for example, the expenses scandal?

Of course, the squeaky clean Scottish MPs are above such a thing.

Or are they?

Scottish MPs are top claimants for expenses

More Scottish MPs involved in latest Westminster expenses scandal

Ok, those reports are from 2009 and 2012 respectively; but do you really think anything has changed since?

Do you really believe that things would be any different in an independent Scotland? Same pigs, different trough is all.

[irishpirate]

Would an Aussie allow a New Zealander to govern their land? Westminster is completely out of touch with the scots. Westminster has squandered Scotland's riches and left the local Economy as one of the worst in Europe. Shame on Britain. Good luck Scotland! Independence now!

Colm

[wigantojapan]

Scottish MPs are top claimants for expenses

More Scottish MPs involved in latest Westminster expenses scandal

so again why are you so desperate for the Scots and their Mps to be in the Union...Seemed the union done you all right having to work way into your old age laddie...

[transam]

Would an Aussie allow a New Zealander to govern their land? Westminster is completely out of touch with the scots. Westminster has squandered Scotland's riches and left the local Economy as one of the worst in Europe. Shame on Britain. Good luck Scotland! Independence now!

Colm

Don't hear the N.Irish, Welsh or Cornish moaning about being hard done bye eh. Are the Scots snorting cos of oil nearby that others don't have ? Would King Salmond stay quiet and take his nice salary if oil wasn't in the equation ?..

Scotland is part of the UK, we have a flag to show we are one, a tiny Island in a huge world that is the envy of many for what we have achieved as a Union.

You wonna go your own way, cool, but don't come running to the remaining UK or the EU if you fugg up under King Salmond eh..

[wigantojapan]

No economic or moral grounds for rejection of currency union

Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp | 25/03/2014 | 7 Comments

Summary

1) The UK Treasury’s rationale for rejecting currency union has been torn apart by one of the world’s leading economists (and one without an axe to grind).

2) There are no moral and ethical grounds for denying the people of Scotland access to their own currency.

Pressure is mounting on the Chancellor George Osborne MP to admit his assertions against a currency union following a Yes vote are based more on political posturing than sound economics.

http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/no-economic-or-moral-grounds-for-rejection-of-currency-union/

[StreetCowboy]

Scottish MPs are top claimants for expenses

More Scottish MPs involved in latest Westminster expenses scandal

so again why are you so desperate for the Scots and their Mps to be in the Union...Seemed the union done you all right having to work way into your old age laddie...

I think it was my own spendthrift profligacy which has condemned me to an old age of drudgery and toil. The UK has done me well, and I don't intend to turn my back on it while I am momentarily beset with wealth

SC

[7by7]

According to the Yes campaign an independent Scotland will be able to rid itself of a government it didn't vote for.

Like the current SNP government in the Scottish parliament, which polled only 45.4% of the votes?

Not like the 13 years of Labour government prior to the current coalition, which Scotland did vote for.

Talking of Labour, the SNP are now attacking Labour for being "too right wing."

A sudden change to Salmond's call for

and readiness to support what he described in 2010 as the formation of a Labour-led ‘progressive alliance’ following the General Election.

What does Salmond really think of Labour? Is it too right-wing, or is it the progressive force he suggested it was in 2010, before Ed Miliband took on the might of Salmond’s chum Rupert Murdoch and called for the energy prize freeze? (source)

Then there is Salmond's support of Donald Trump's desire to change a SSSI into a luxury golf complex in Salmond's own constituency; support given by Salmond despite the fact that the majority of his own constituents objected to it. Support which meant that after the plans had been refused by the local authority Salmond called it in and overturned the refusal.

As we all know, Salmond and Trump have since fallen out; but Salmond's support was there when it mattered.

If Salmond is indicative of the future for politics in an independent Scotland; God help you.

[7by7]

Scottish MPs are top claimants for expenses

More Scottish MPs involved in latest Westminster expenses scandal

so again why are you so desperate for the Scots and their Mps to be in the Union...Seemed the union done you all right having to work way into your old age laddie...

Dear, oh dear.

Those links were posted in response to a specific point; posted to show that Scottish politicians are no better than any others. Had you read all of the post instead of just the snippet you've quoted you would know that.

I have stated the reasons for my support for the union many, many times. Not my fault if you haven't read or failed to understand those reasons.

Or maybe old age has affected your memory, boy?

[wigantojapan]

If Salmond is indicative of the future for politics in an independent Scotland; God help you.

God is on the yes side as well ,so YES you are correct this time..God is helping

[wigantojapan]

http://news.stv.tv/north/276018-nova-innovation-turbine-on-north-yell-generating-power-for-grid/

[transam]

If Salmond is indicative of the future for politics in an independent Scotland; God help you.

God is on the yes side as well ,so YES you are correct this time..God is helping

Who's God......?..............Seems to be a big choice at the mo..................

[StreetCowboy]

If Salmond is indicative of the future for politics in an independent Scotland; God help you.

God is on the yes side as well ,so YES you are correct this time..God is helping

I didn't mean it as a serious expression of His political intentions

SC

[RuamRudy]

michael god bless him seems someone forgot to tell him not to mention the S word,,or maybe they ? of course it is unfounded and its only a perspective from the Yes side

Unfortunately it doesn't seem that any of our regulars want to comment on this video. Or maybe Portillo is not as clued up as our defenders of the No campaign?

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[RuamRudy]

I read it, my point is how will they be different in an independent Scotland ?

Can we honestly say that ANY gov has come up with the promises they spout. In my life time I cannot think of one..So, why will King Salmonds lot be different.....?

Why do No campaigners keep on banging this King Salmond drum? A vote for independence is not a vote for Salmond, as I am sure you are aware.

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[RuamRudy]

Yet you want what you call 'the corrupt Westminster elite' to have control over all fiscal policy in an independent Scotland!

How strange.

BTW, if you think that Scottish politicians are any less corrupt or elitist than those from the rest of the UK, or any other nationality, then you are sadly very much mistaken.

This hyperbole of yours is getting out of control, or do you genuinely not understand that which you write about? So a currency union, or even the Jocks using pounds unapproved amounts to us handing over 'all fiscal policy'? How strange that you come to that conclusion.

Of course I don't believe that we Scots are above the nefarious dealings of London. We have had our fair share of parasites and cheats, and there are still many who are actively working to maintain the status quo because it benefits them to remain in the union.

But where are the changes to the system? What has improved in government since, for example, the expenses scandal? Even last month the MPs rallied round one of their own and rejected the imposition made on her by an independent body to repay the money she stole from the taxpayer. Nothing has changed - and nothing will change without something radical to kick start it.

In an independent Scotland we have the opportunity to create something new. I do not claim that it will be perfect, but it can only be better than that which we are shackled to now.

And you think Scot politicians

somehow will be oh so squeaky clean different ?.......

Definetley. All Scots politicians will be paragons of duty and virtue - except for those that set foot in Westminster, of course. They become scurrilous rogues, just like foreign politicians

SC

It is neither a Scottish nor a Westminster failing, but a human failing. We can be a parcel of rogues at home as well as abroad.

Westminster has, however, erected itself barriers that are impenetrable. It is a gilded gravy train that will not stop, and while we are expected to keep it running, it does all it can to squeeze everything from us.

The potential of a Scottish parliament, free of those unassailable structures that exist in Westminster to protect the elite within, could be designed to actually serve the people, not exploit them.

Guaranteed? No. Possible to fail? Of course. Worth trying for? Definitely.

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[RuamRudy]

This hyperbole of yours is getting out of control, or do you genuinely not understand that which you write about?

Now, now; no need for you to descend to the level of the man from Wigan. I thought you were above that.

So a currency union, or even the Jocks using pounds unapproved amounts to us handing over 'all fiscal policy'? How strange that you come to that conclusion.

If an independent Scotland uses Sterling, whether in a formal currency union or not, how will they have control over their own fiscal policy?

Not hyperbole; a genuine question to which I would very much like an answer. Go on; educate me.

Of course I don't believe that we Scots are above the nefarious dealings of London. We have had our fair share of parasites and cheats, and there are still many who are actively working to maintain the status quo because it benefits them to remain in the union.

But where are the changes to the system? What has improved in government since, for example, the expenses scandal?

Of course, the squeaky clean Scottish MPs are above such a thing.

Or are they?

Scottish MPs are top claimants for expenses

More Scottish MPs involved in latest Westminster expenses scandal

Ok, those reports are from 2009 and 2012 respectively; but do you really think anything has changed since?

Do you really believe that things would be any different in an independent Scotland? Same pigs, different trough is all.

Same pigs? You should be happy because they will all be heading home, no longer helping maintain the London drain on the country.

But hopefully we can, in an independent Scotland, create a system of government that is not self serving, designed to protect the few at the expense of the many. These people would, I hope, have no place in public life. Call me naive, but when the alternative is stark and getting worse, why would I not be willing to try for something better?

Sorry - I am not so good at splitting up posts so I will answer your first point now, where you asked about fiscal policy. So no European country has its own fiscal policy? No European country can claim sovereignty? There are 18 official Euro users inside the euro zone and 9 outwith. There are 3 unofficial users and 9 other currencies are pegged to it. Are you trying to say that Brussels controls the fiscal policies of 39 countries?

Fiscal policy is about a lot more than interest rates. It is about taxation and expenditure to influence demand and economic activity. Of course, interest rates are a factor, but not the heart of the matter.

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[RuamRudy]

Would an Aussie allow a New Zealander to govern their land? Westminster is completely out of touch with the scots. Westminster has squandered Scotland's riches and left the local Economy as one of the worst in Europe. Shame on Britain. Good luck Scotland! Independence now!

Colm

Don't hear the N.Irish, Welsh or Cornish moaning about being hard done bye eh. Are the Scots snorting cos of oil nearby that others don't have ? Would King Salmond stay quiet and take his nice salary if oil wasn't in the equation ?..

Scotland is part of the UK, we have a flag to show we are one, a tiny Island in a huge world that is the envy of many for what we have achieved as a Union.

You wonna go your own way, cool, but don't come running to the remaining UK or the EU if you fugg up under King Salmond eh..

I asked this few times and nobody has answered, so let me ask you...

A sizeable proportion (and hopefully a majority) of Scottish people want to break away from the UK. Why do you take it so personally? The vitriol, the snide remarks, the sneering - can you not be happy that your neighbours feel confident enough to stand on their own? It is not a repudiation of you.

And why do you think we cannot be a successful, independent country?

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[RuamRudy]

According to the Yes campaign an independent Scotland will be able to rid itself of a government it didn't vote for.

Like the current SNP government in the Scottish parliament, which polled only 45.4% of the votes?

Not like the 13 years of Labour government prior to the current coalition, which Scotland did vote for.

Talking of Labour, the SNP are now attacking Labour for being "too right wing."

A sudden change to Salmond's call for

and readiness to support what he described in 2010 as the formation of a Labour-led ‘progressive alliance’ following the General Election.

What does Salmond really think of Labour? Is it too right-wing, or is it the progressive force he suggested it was in 2010, before Ed Miliband took on the might of Salmond’s chum Rupert Murdoch and called for the energy prize freeze? (source)

Then there is Salmond's support of Donald Trump's desire to change a SSSI into a luxury golf complex in Salmond's own constituency; support given by Salmond despite the fact that the majority of his own constituents objected to it. Support which meant that after the plans had been refused by the local authority Salmond called it in and overturned the refusal.

As we all know, Salmond and Trump have since fallen out; but Salmond's support was there when it mattered.

If Salmond is indicative of the future for politics in an independent Scotland; God help you.

I agree with you on this one - the courting of Trump was a disgrace that appalls many in Scotland. I also think that, as politicians go, Salmond comes across as smug and cocky; not unique qualities in public life, but definitely not endearing. In an independent Scotland, I would never vote for him, but if he can deliver that independence, then he will do for now. Then, as has been stated many times, we elect a Scottish government that we want.

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[Basil B]

Would an Aussie allow a New Zealander to govern their land? Westminster is completely out of touch with the scots. Westminster has squandered Scotland's riches and left the local Economy as one of the worst in Europe. Shame on Britain. Good luck Scotland! Independence now!

Colm

Using this argument New Zealand would be two separate countries.

[folium]

According to the Yes campaign an independent Scotland will be able to rid itself of a government it didn't vote for.

Like the current SNP government in the Scottish parliament, which polled only 45.4% of the votes?

Not like the 13 years of Labour government prior to the current coalition, which Scotland did vote for.

Talking of Labour, the SNP are now attacking Labour for being "too right wing."

A sudden change to Salmond's call for

and readiness to support what he described in 2010 as the formation of a Labour-led ‘progressive alliance’ following the General Election.

What does Salmond really think of Labour? Is it too right-wing, or is it the progressive force he suggested it was in 2010, before Ed Miliband took on the might of Salmond’s chum Rupert Murdoch and called for the energy prize freeze? (source)

Then there is Salmond's support of Donald Trump's desire to change a SSSI into a luxury golf complex in Salmond's own constituency; support given by Salmond despite the fact that the majority of his own constituents objected to it. Support which meant that after the plans had been refused by the local authority Salmond called it in and overturned the refusal.

As we all know, Salmond and Trump have since fallen out; but Salmond's support was there when it mattered.

If Salmond is indicative of the future for politics in an independent Scotland; God help you.

I agree with you on this one - the courting of Trump was a disgrace that appalls many in Scotland. I also think that, as politicians go, Salmond comes across as smug and cocky; not unique qualities in public life, but definitely not endearing. In an independent Scotland, I would never vote for him, but if he can deliver that independence, then he will do for now. Then, as has been stated many times, we elect a Scottish government that we want.

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In a similar vein folks across the UK were desperate for a change in 1997 ("things can only get better"), and instead got 10 years of Blair and 3 unelected years of Brown. Scheming pols have a nasty habit of keeping their feet under the proverbial table once ensconced. You may not be too enamoured with Salmond now, try 10 years + of him ruling Scotland....As ever beware of what you wish for.

[watso63]

Goodbye Scotland, it wasn't nice owning you.

No more Labour governments put into power via Scottish votes. Maybe in my next passport I can call myself English.

Then we can have a war to fight for what's left of the oil & gas reserves.(Historically the English have always treated the Scots harshly when they rebelled, so why not now)?

Life's looking better already.

Seriously, the SNP almost disappeared without Alex Salmond (as I'm sure UKIP would without Nigel Farage). He had to come back to rejuvinate the party, the argument, the fight and the cause! A pipe dream, the Scots have it good and they know it. Apart from "Braveheart" what do people living in the modern world really care about the past? Housing, pensions, jobs, security.

Bring it on Scotland, I'm really looking forward to this one.

[nontabury]

This hyperbole of yours is getting out of control, or do you genuinely not understand that which you write about?

Now, now; no need for you to descend to the level of the man from Wigan. I thought you were above that.

So a currency union, or even the Jocks using pounds unapproved amounts to us handing over 'all fiscal policy'? How strange that you come to that conclusion.

If an independent Scotland uses Sterling, whether in a formal currency union or not, how will they have control over their own fiscal policy?

Not hyperbole; a genuine question to which I would very much like an answer. Go on; educate me.

Of course I don't believe that we Scots are above the nefarious dealings of London. We have had our fair share of parasites and cheats, and there are still many who are actively working to maintain the status quo because it benefits them to remain in the union.

But where are the changes to the system? What has improved in government since, for example, the expenses scandal?

Of course, the squeaky clean Scottish MPs are above such a thing.

Or are they?

Scottish MPs are top claimants for expenses

More Scottish MPs involved in latest Westminster expenses scandal

Ok, those reports are from 2009 and 2012 respectively; but do you really think anything has changed since?

Do you really believe that things would be any different in an independent Scotland? Same pigs, different trough is all.

Same pigs? You should be happy because they will all be heading home, no longer helping maintain the London drain on the country.

But hopefully we can, in an independent Scotland, create a system of government that is not self serving, designed to protect the few at the expense of the many. These people would, I hope, have no place in public life. Call me naive, but when the alternative is stark and getting worse, why would I not be willing to try for something better?

Sorry - I am not so good at splitting up posts so I will answer your first point now, where you asked about fiscal policy. So no European country has its own fiscal policy? No European country can claim sovereignty? There are 18 official Euro users inside the euro zone and 9 outwith. There are 3 unofficial users and 9 other currencies are pegged to it. Are you trying to say that Brussels controls the fiscal policies of 39 countries?

Fiscal policy is about a lot more than interest rates. It is about taxation and expenditure to influence demand and economic activity. Of course, interest rates are a factor, but not the heart of the matter.

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Throughout this thread RaumRuby you have made some good points, unlike the lad from lancashire who can only post and paste, bigoted propaganda articles. However "Yes" I do think you are being rather naive in thinking that politics and politicians will be any different in a separated Scotland. I'm from Yorkshire a region with a similar size population who unfortunately are not as prosperous as those in Scotland, do I think a separate Yorkshire would be governed any better if it was free of the shackles of Westminster ( SNP description ), of course not. We have also been burdened with inefficient and corrupt politicians, including some who have been Scots, goggle Dennis Macshane, not to mention Tony WMD Blair and Gordon Bigot Brown. Every independence movement in history declares that they will forge a perfect society, yet strangely they all fall short on that ideal, Ireland-Charles Haughey, Bertie Arhern, South Africa-Jacob Zuma manage to produce unscrupulous politicians, yet you seem to think that Scotland will be different.

You will have read throughout this thread that I have been a great supporter of separation from Scotland, Having held this belief for over 50yrs, before you and most of the the members of the SNP were even born. My reasons for wanting independence from Scotland are I'm sure different from yours, my only proviso would be that Edinburgh and the south east of what is now

classed as Scotland would be returned to it's rightful owner, the ancient country of Northumbria.

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