Great Train Robber Ronnie Biggs dies aged 84

[Scott]

An off-topic post has been deleted. Stay on-topic.

[Jay Sata]

Mr Sata, I have raised many points to support my opinion of Biggs; you have addressed none of them

Instead you, again, raise the case of another criminal!

In my posts I have never defended any criminal; yet you accuse me of defending the examples you quote.

Your repeated ridiculous assertions that I do not consider them to be criminals only shows how weak your position is and how increasingly desperate your attempts to justify your argument are becoming.

Until you respond directly to at least one of the points I have posted about Biggs, I see no point in continuing with you.

I guess with your views on justice you' re not a voluntary prison visitor or a magistrate.

[Basil B]

Mr Sata, I have raised many points to support my opinion of Biggs; you have addressed none of them

Instead you, again, raise the case of another criminal!

In my posts I have never defended any criminal; yet you accuse me of defending the examples you quote.

Your repeated ridiculous assertions that I do not consider them to be criminals only shows how weak your position is and how increasingly desperate your attempts to justify your argument are becoming.

Until you respond directly to at least one of the points I have posted about Biggs, I see no point in continuing with you.

I guess with your views on justice you' re not a voluntary prison visitor or a magistrate.

Well I have been a visitor...

That why I am in favor of abolishing prison visiting, I do not think I ever visited without there being someone caught trying to smuggle drugs in, and many of the visitors had government handouts to cover traveling costs so if they were to replace visiting with video links to designated welfare centres this would reduce the the smuggling of contraband's such as drugs, mobile phones, weapons, money, etc, and we the tax payer would not be paying their molls to visit them.

[Jay Sata]

Mr Sata, I have raised many points to support my opinion of Biggs; you have addressed none of them

Instead you, again, raise the case of another criminal!

In my posts I have never defended any criminal; yet you accuse me of defending the examples you quote.

Your repeated ridiculous assertions that I do not consider them to be criminals only shows how weak your position is and how increasingly desperate your attempts to justify your argument are becoming.

Until you respond directly to at least one of the points I have posted about Biggs, I see no point in continuing with you.

Pretty juvenile response there 7by7 and I guess you never went through the ritual of boarding school debating societies where you'd be shot down in flames. It's one of the reasons why Eton has produced so many Prime Ministers.

Biggs is dead and he was exiled for a couple of decades.

On reflection he felt that was good.

He told me i(n an interview that is on youtube) Raimunda got mugged in London in the 80's. He said that would not have happened in the sixties.

I'm looking forward to what you post tomorrow about the ex Labour MP Dennis McShayne when he is sentenced for theft from the public purse. I suspect you're a guy who thinks the Labour politicians can do no wrong.

[mariner16]

"As a point of interest the retired train driver chum of Biggs's recruited to drive the train was the only member of the gang who was at Bridego Bridge who was never caught".

This actually is incorrect, as I have already pointed out, it is now accepted that in addition to the retired shunter driver at least three other members of the gang were never arrested, even though their identities were known. One of these three was the person who inflicted the injuries on Jack Mills and subsequently returned 50, 000 pounds of the money in a deal with a shady police superintendent (to make him look good with his superiors) in exchange for avoiding arrest

In the 1960's certainly in London and probably other places in UK the police were as bent as the criminals and the two groups worked hand in hand at lot of the time. Tommy Butler who ran The Flying Squad was famously secretive with his junior officers as he did trust anyone not to pass infomation to the persons under investigation in exchange for bribes.

[Jay Sata]

"As a point of interest the retired train driver chum of Biggs's recruited to drive the train was the only member of the gang who was at Bridego Bridge who was never caught".

This actually is incorrect, as I have already pointed out, it is now accepted that in addition to the retired shunter driver at least three other members of the gang were never arrested, even though their identities were known. One of these three was the person who inflicted the injuries on Jack Mills and subsequently returned 50, 000 pounds of the money in a deal with a shady police superintendent (to make him look good with his superiors) in exchange for avoiding arrest

In the 1960's certainly in London and probably other places in UK the police were as bent as the criminals and the two groups worked hand in hand at lot of the time. Tommy Butler who ran The Flying Squad was famously secretive with his junior officers as he did trust anyone not to pass infomation to the persons under investigation in exchange for bribes.

Good post Mariner and reflected a decade later in programmes like the Sweeney. To have a go at Biggs and his role to be fair you'd have to turn a few stones in the police at that time and question their methods and honesty. Hence the BBC TV drama Life On Mars.

Those having a go at me were either not born in 1963 or certainly not old enough to remember it.

[Jay Sata]

Mr Sata, I have raised many points to support my opinion of Biggs; you have addressed none of them

Instead you, again, raise the case of another criminal!

In my posts I have never defended any criminal; yet you accuse me of defending the examples you quote.

Your repeated ridiculous assertions that I do not consider them to be criminals only shows how weak your position is and how increasingly desperate your attempts to justify your argument are becoming.

Until you respond directly to at least one of the points I have posted about Biggs, I see no point in continuing with you.

So what do you want?

I dig him up and post his head on a spike at the edge of Aylesbury?

Better I post this excellent obit from today's Irish Independant.

Whether Biggs has been the lifelong beneficiary of good fortune depends on how you regard world travel and sleazy minor celebrity. The truth is he was fortunate even to be part of the story. The Kray brothers, the only British contemporaries to vie with him as national anti-heroes, were at least villains who maimed, killed and terrorised, and as is often the way, engaged with the titled and famous. Biggs was a two-bit villain. Even among the train robbers, he was a minnow.

None of the gang was exactly a major criminal, but Biggs was neither the brain nor the brawn. In fact his main credential was that he knew Bruce Reynolds, one of the coup's masterminds. What did Biggs bring to the party?

He brought a retired train driver of his acquaintance who was supposed to take the train into a siding after the real driver had been removed.

Biggs's friend wasn't up to it. So they had to force the real driver, Jack Mills, to do it. They encouraged him with a hefty blow to the head that left him badly impaired for the rest of his shortened life.

Biggs didn't execute the blow but he was guilty of contributory incompetence

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/obituary-ronnie-biggs-29859193.html

The Irish have a way with words. It's worth clicking the link.

They also forgive and have compassion.

You won't find many Irish people on here saying they have been denied access to the emerald isle with their spouse whatever creed or colour.

[Sirius1935]

Mr Sata, I have raised many points to support my opinion of Biggs; you have addressed none of them

Instead you, again, raise the case of another criminal!

In my posts I have never defended any criminal; yet you accuse me of defending the examples you quote.

Your repeated ridiculous assertions that I do not consider them to be criminals only shows how weak your position is and how increasingly desperate your attempts to justify your argument are becoming.

Until you respond directly to at least one of the points I have posted about Biggs, I see no point in continuing with you.

So what do you want?

I dig him up and post his head on a spike at the edge of Aylesbury?

Better I post this excellent obit from today's Irish Independant.

Whether Biggs has been the lifelong beneficiary of good fortune depends on how you regard world travel and sleazy minor celebrity. The truth is he was fortunate even to be part of the story. The Kray brothers, the only British contemporaries to vie with him as national anti-heroes, were at least villains who maimed, killed and terrorised, and as is often the way, engaged with the titled and famous. Biggs was a two-bit villain. Even among the train robbers, he was a minnow.

None of the gang was exactly a major criminal, but Biggs was neither the brain nor the brawn. In fact his main credential was that he knew Bruce Reynolds, one of the coup's masterminds. What did Biggs bring to the party?

He brought a retired train driver of his acquaintance who was supposed to take the train into a siding after the real driver had been removed.

Biggs's friend wasn't up to it. So they had to force the real driver, Jack Mills, to do it. They encouraged him with a hefty blow to the head that left him badly impaired for the rest of his shortened life.

Biggs didn't execute the blow but he was guilty of contributory incompetence

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/obituary-ronnie-biggs-29859193.html

The Irish have a way with words. It's worth clicking the link.

They also forgive and have compassion.

You won't find many Irish people on here saying they have been denied access to the emerald isle with their spouse whatever creed or colour.

Good quote Jay Santa and thanks for the link.

Biggs wasn't hard to find in Rio. One just had to look in the phone book: "Biggs Ronald Arthur". He was a character and the crews were well entertained at his place.

I think you win the argument, Jay, Mario and others. The score: 7 by Zero.

[Rinrada]

Had a few beers and lunch with him a couple of times in Rio way back in from memory 1984 shortly after he had been returned from the Bahamas following a kidnapping by a bunch of "privateers".

The said Government refused to extradite him to UK and he was returned to Brazil.

Needless to say I asked him all the usual questions and got basically the same answers that have already been widely noted.

The main 3 obvious ones that came to mind.....

Was there a Mr Big?....answer definitely No...just the gang.......(.even I was never completely convinced..however)

How did he feel about the coshing of Jack Mills.....answer ..Wished it had never happened and he was deeply deeply so sorry.

Did he have any regrets about his involvement in the GTR...Answer NO

He also confirmed that he was just a small part of the setup however also commented and felt that the 30 years + sentences handed out were UK Government "inspired" to basically show/send a message that nobody can rob the "ROYAL mail......

how dare they...wot.

Finally ..I found him very easy going,open and I was happy with our discussion (and I did not pay him anything) but yes he was a small time crook which one cannot refute but as an individual.....well that's another story....

RIP

[7by7]

Sirius1935, The reason Biggs didn't return to the UK earlier wasn't because he couldn't be found; it was because the Brazilian government wouldn't extradite him. He only returned in the end so that the British taxpayer could pay for the medical treatment he couldn't afford in Brazil.

Rinrada, Mills wasn't coshed; he was hit over the head with an iron bar!

Biggs had no regrets about participating in the robbery; therefore no repentance, no reformation. Had he shown such, he doubtless would have been released much earlier than he was.

Mr Sata; you are still dodging my points and questions; and what the <deleted> has the UK family immigration rules got to do with this topic?

It wasn't the UK immigration rules which stopped Biggs and his Brazilian family from living in the UK; it was his reluctance to serve his time in prison.

[7by7]

I'm looking forward to what you (7by7) post tomorrow about the ex Labour MP Dennis McShayne when he is sentenced for theft from the public purse. I suspect you're a guy who thinks the Labour politicians can do no wrong.

You keep bringing up other criminals and accusing me of pillorying Biggs but defending them.

I have not defended any criminal; indeed I have done the opposite!

Good post Mariner and reflected a decade later in programmes like the Sweeney. To have a go at Biggs and his role to be fair you'd have to turn a few stones in the police at that time and question their methods and honesty. Hence the BBC TV drama Life On Mars.

Whilst no one will deny that there was a lot of police corruption, in the Met in particular, in the sixties, using that to excuse Biggs, or any other criminal including corrupt police officers, is ridiculous.

Almost as ridiculous as using fictional TV programmes to 'prove' your point!

Those having a go at me were either not born in 1963 or certainly not old enough to remember it.

So, how old were you in 1963?

[Basil B]

I'm looking forward to what you post tomorrow about the ex Labour MP Dennis McShayne when he is sentenced for theft from the public purse. I suspect you're a guy who thinks the Labour politicians can do no wrong.

Just my view on the McShayne fiasco..

Yes, Denis McShayne got six months for fiddling his expenses; this is not unique as there have been many caught and quite a few MPs and Lords convicted from all the major parties.

No doubt Some MPs have done it to line their own pockets, I suspect others have done it to finance newsletters, and other activities within their constituencies in order ensure they get re-elected next time, I do not condone this, I actually think it is electoral fraud as it gives them an unfair advantage over their opponents.

[folium]

You completely miss the point. No one is denying what Biggs did. The point is the sentence was unjust.

Unjust?

On what basis? According to whom?

Does your take on the British legal system take precedence?

And please spare us the class warfare BS...

[folium]

Mr Sata, I have raised many points to support my opinion of Biggs; you have addressed none of them

Instead you, again, raise the case of another criminal!

In my posts I have never defended any criminal; yet you accuse me of defending the examples you quote.

Your repeated ridiculous assertions that I do not consider them to be criminals only shows how weak your position is and how increasingly desperate your attempts to justify your argument are becoming.

Until you respond directly to at least one of the points I have posted about Biggs, I see no point in continuing with you.

Pretty juvenile response there 7by7 and I guess you never went through the ritual of boarding school debating societies where you'd be shot down in flames. It's one of the reasons why Eton has produced so many Prime Ministers.

Biggs is dead and he was exiled for a couple of decades.

On reflection he felt that was good.

He told me i(n an interview that is on youtube) Raimunda got mugged in London in the 80's. He said that would not have happened in the sixties.

I'm looking forward to what you post tomorrow about the ex Labour MP Dennis McShayne when he is sentenced for theft from the public purse. I suspect you're a guy who thinks the Labour politicians can do no wrong.

Well make your mind up...!

One moment you are slagging off Old Etonian Charlie Brocket "one rule for them, another for the plebs" etc, and then you are extolling the virtues of private school debating and the number of Old Etonian PMs!

Biggs was never "exiled". He ran away from doing the time he was sentenced to do for his crimes. Quite why you make such a song and dance about a career criminal who started thieving during his National Service at RAF Melksham in 1948 and was dishonourably discharged, is beyond me. If Biggs had said that England had won the World Cup in 1982, would you have believed him?

Did he ever express any remorse for his actions? Like hell he did. Why should he when there was always another pandering sap, cheque book in hand, around the corner eager to experience some "rough stuff"....

[7by7]

Pretty juvenile response there 7by7 and I guess you never went through the ritual of boarding school debating societies where you'd be shot down in flames. It's one of the reasons why Eton has produced so many Prime Ministers.

Well make your mind up...!

One moment you are slagging off Old Etonian Charlie Brocket "one rule for them, another for the plebs" etc, and then you are extolling the virtues of private school debating and the number of Old Etonian PMs!

To be fair to Mr Sata, he has never, as far as I am aware, claimed to have gone to a public or even private school himself.

He has, though, on several occasions in other topics boasted about sending his children to one.

One rule for us, another for him.

[Jay Sata]

Pretty juvenile response there 7by7 and I guess you never went through the ritual of boarding school debating societies where you'd be shot down in flames. It's one of the reasons why Eton has produced so many Prime Ministers.

Well make your mind up...!

One moment you are slagging off Old Etonian Charlie Brocket "one rule for them, another for the plebs" etc, and then you are extolling the virtues of private school debating and the number of Old Etonian PMs!

To be fair to Mr Sata, he has never, as far as I am aware, claimed to have gone to a public or even private school himself.

He has, though, on several occasions in other topics boasted about sending his children to one.

One rule for us, another for him.

Cheers.

I Hope you never get in to a pub argument on a Friday night.

You'll find out it was not worth it on a Saturday morning.

[Jay Sata]

Mr Sata, I have raised many points to support my opinion of Biggs; you have addressed none of them

Instead you, again, raise the case of another criminal!

In my posts I have never defended any criminal; yet you accuse me of defending the examples you quote.

Your repeated ridiculous assertions that I do not consider them to be criminals only shows how weak your position is and how increasingly desperate your attempts to justify your argument are becoming.

Until you respond directly to at least one of the points I have posted about Biggs, I see no point in continuing with you.

So what do you want?

I dig him up and post his head on a spike at the edge of Aylesbury?

Better I post this excellent obit from today's Irish Independant.

Whether Biggs has been the lifelong beneficiary of good fortune depends on how you regard world travel and sleazy minor celebrity. The truth is he was fortunate even to be part of the story. The Kray brothers, the only British contemporaries to vie with him as national anti-heroes, were at least villains who maimed, killed and terrorised, and as is often the way, engaged with the titled and famous. Biggs was a two-bit villain. Even among the train robbers, he was a minnow.

None of the gang was exactly a major criminal, but Biggs was neither the brain nor the brawn. In fact his main credential was that he knew Bruce Reynolds, one of the coup's masterminds. What did Biggs bring to the party?

He brought a retired train driver of his acquaintance who was supposed to take the train into a siding after the real driver had been removed.

Biggs's friend wasn't up to it. So they had to force the real driver, Jack Mills, to do it. They encouraged him with a hefty blow to the head that left him badly impaired for the rest of his shortened life.

Biggs didn't execute the blow but he was guilty of contributory incompetence

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/obituary-ronnie-biggs-29859193.html

The Irish have a way with words. It's worth clicking the link.

They also forgive and have compassion.

You won't find many Irish people on here saying they have been denied access to the emerald isle with their spouse whatever creed or colour.

Good quote Jay Santa and thanks for the link.

Biggs wasn't hard to find in Rio. One just had to look in the phone book: "Biggs Ronald Arthur". He was a character and the crews were well entertained at his place.

I think you win the argument, Jay, Mario and others. The score: 7 by Zero.

Of course I'll win because unlike 7by7 I talked to the guy and he was just like us all.

Ronnie was a nice guy and if he''d been a banker instead of a carpenter he'd be living the high life now.

I talk the talk and walk the walk unlike others who sit in a small upstairs bedroom venting anger via their computer on what they perceive the bad card life has dealt them.

You make your own luck in this life.

Biggs was no Kray .

White collar and high society is where the real expensive crime is.

Read this story about a hi-so woman ripped off Tiffany's in New York.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2380047/Tiffany--Co-vice-president-Ingrid-Lederhaas-Okun-pleads-guilty-stealing-2-million-164-pieces-jewelry-New-York-store.html

By the way I'm off to Burma in the New Year making money via the media exploring the place before the plebs arrive.

There is room for my critics if they want to come along

[7by7]

Mr Sata, he may be like you, but not like most of us who are not petty criminals who wouldn't face up to our crimes; and nobody has said he was a Kray.

As for your pathetic attempt at a flame; how sad that you're reduced to that instead of producing real arguments and answers to the questions you have been asked.

Enjoy your time in Burma; you wont be missed.

[Sirius1935]

Mr Sata, he may be like you, but not like most of us who are not petty criminals who wouldn't face up to our crimes; and nobody has said he was a Kray.

As for your pathetic attempt at a flame; how sad that you're reduced to that instead of producing real arguments and answers to the questions you have been asked.

Enjoy your time in Burma; you wont be missed.

If there was a dislike button on this web site you would hold the record. You also deserve a caution for being a troll (your posts to the above member are inflammatory, rude and arrogant).

[Scott]

I would very much suggest that posters stick to the topic. Continued inflammatory remarks directed at other posters will earn suspensions. Christmas may be over, but the holiday season isn't. Please try to continue to spread cheer and goodwill toward others.