Thai Democrats resolve to boycott February 2 election

[dukebowling]

iirc in the very recent past Belgium went along quite happily for over a year with no government. Thailand could easily do the same and sort out the constitution in the meantime. No need to be continuously passing new laws - the old ones are just fine

you are right, Belgium was more than a year with only a caretaker government and not much harm was done to the economy because the institutions of the country continued to work as normal... unlike in many "young democracies" the Belgian institutions serve the interest of the nation and not the interest of a small group of people ..red shirt or yellow shirt .....even if those are elected people (think of the Marcos democracy in Manila).

....which tells a nice positive story about a democracy with a King - or whatever you like to call it - surviving a seriously disfunctional voting system. What did they do to fix their situation?

Thailand also really needs to look outwards for examples of how to cope with their under-educated voters. Emotive voters will never maintain a stable democracy.

The level of education of a person does not determine a person's competence. You will find statistically equivalent good and bad in differentiating education levels.

[retsdon]

Abhisit and the moderates lose out to the insanity that is Suthep and his backers.

As the political crisis continues to escalate its becoming obvious that Suthep will not stop until there is blood on the streets of Bangkok. There is no way the government is going to give him what he wants, the only way he can get anything like his desired unelected council is if the military conducts another coup. And the only way a coup will happen is to defuse violence street clashes that lead to bloodshed, which would give them a mandate to intervene on behalf of the Thai people.

That being said however this will be the end of the democrats as a threat to the PTP in anything resembling a "one man, one vote" election. They are plunging the country into turmoil just to spite Thaksin and his supporters.

I am no bigger fan of Thaksin than I am of Suthep and as far as I'm concerned they should find a nice quiet place in the desert outside Dubai to have it out, instead of it playing out across the streets of this country and costing the lives of innocent Thai's.

The Democrats had no choice. Thaksin Shinawatra is buying the election like he bought others. The whole process is corrupt and needs to be made honest, open and free from corruption.

The sad aspect of this is the Redshirts are supporting the governing of the country by an unelected outside party who just happens to be a fugitive from justice for corruption while in office.

I never liked Thaksin. He had the smell of the demagogue about him from the get-go. Nonetheless, what the opposition forces are doing here is that they are attempting to drag the country back into the Dark Ages. If I were Thai, I'd vote for Yingluck's crew, purely on a point of principle. And then the next election I'd vote against them -assuming of course that there was an opposition party to vote for. The Thai people are being very, very badly served here by their supposed representatives.

[dukebowling]

The general hate rally cry against Thaksin reminds me of another in history - Hitler and his rally for the country to hate the Jews. Point to a scapegoat for all the country's problems and create a mob. Hate is the heart of a mob's mentality. Truly sad.

I still can't find any solid evidence of what Thaksin did wrong. Can anyone tell me?

I would commend you to invest in an education. The first step for you would be to learn how to search on the internet.

Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia.

"...He was convicted by the Supreme Court's Criminal Division for Holders of Political Positions of abusing his power to help his wife buy public land at an auction, and was sentenced to two years in jail. Various criminal charges await him if he returns to Thailand..."[/size]

He also evaded tax by fraudulent share transactions for the sale of Shincorp to another bunch of politicians in Singapore.[/size]

Thaksin was convicted without a trial or defense from a government destined to find fault. What was the crime? His wife bought an auctioned property. Did he threaten others not to bid? No exact detail anywhere.

Evading taxes did not exist because there was no tax on capital gains at that time. The tax evasion accusation is just that with no legal ramifications. Also at the time, it was legal for foreign investors to hold 49% of a Thai company. This was passed during his regime but proposed earlier in 2001. Many accusations that this was wrong must not be confused with the legality.

Again, anyone have anything?

Thaksin is so bent he makes a boomerang look like a ruler.

"...

Concealing of Shin Corp. Shares[edit]

Thaksin was pressed charged on wealth concealment while in office.^[218][219] Prior to the wealth declaration of Thaksin and his family when he took office, there has been an appeal to the The National Anti-Corruption Commission that there are some suspicious about the numbers in the report.^[220]

Transferring to maid and driver[edit]

Thaksin was charged with illegally concealing billions of baht of his wealth by transferring ownership of Shin Corp. shares to his drivers and maids, without their knowledge. Thaksin tearfully told the Constitutional Court that it was an honest mistake before the Court acquitted him on the charges.^[221]

Transferring shares to children who reached maturity[edit]

There was also a controversy over whether there was any hidden tax evasion when Thaksin and Potjaman transferred their Shin Corporation shares to their children. Panthongtae and Pinthongta Shinawatra were accused of being nominees of their parent.

The transfer of shares from Thaksin and Potjaman to Parnthongtae was claimed to have been a sham, since there was no actual transfer of money. Panthongtae said the shares were sold to him at cost. Thaksin stated he had a written agreement proving the transfer to his son. Prior to the transfer, Panthongtae had signed an agreement with his father to settle a 4.5 billion baht debt from buying 300 million shares of the Thai Military Bank (TMB). However, the actual market value of the TMB shares at that time was only 1.5 billion baht. This showed a "fake debt" of 3 billion baht had been created.^[222]The Assets Examination Committee (AEC) discovered that Panthongtae's account that receives Shin Corporation's dividend has been used to transfer money to Potjaman's account to the amount of 1.1 billion baht.

Pintongtha also was accused of being nominee for her parents. She said that the money from her mother was a "birthday present". This birthday present was used to buy 367 million shares of Shin Corporation, which leaves her brother with the same amount. The AEC found the account has been receiving dividends from Shin Corp. There were no transactions between Pintongtha's account and her mother's account. However, the dividend money was used to buy SC Asset shares from WinMark to the amount of 71 million baht and shares from 5 real-estate firms from 2 funds in 2004 worth of 485 million baht.

DSI, AEC, and Securities and Exchange Commission discovered that both WinMark and the two funds are owned by Thaksin and his former wife.^[223]..."

Thanks for making my point.

1. Suspicions don't count for anything.

2. An acquittal speaks for itself.

3. Transferring of shares and dividends to children are perfectly legal as a gift. Money does not have to exchange for the stock transfer to happen, just a binding agreement.

4. You can make an agreement to sell shares at any price, does not have to be market value (typical buyout).

5. They say the dividends should have been deposited in Thaksin's account rather than his daughters? If his daughter was acting as a nominee for him to make the other purchases, what is the crime? It is still the family's money. Nothing was stolen. Why can't Thaksin give her the stocks, she receives the dividend and then buys these investments for her parents?

Looks like typical tax shelter accounting.

[dukebowling]

The general hate rally cry against Thaksin reminds me of another in history - Hitler and his rally for the country to hate the Jews. Point to a scapegoat for all the country's problems and create a mob. Hate is the heart of a mob's mentality. Truly sad.

I still can't find any solid evidence of what Thaksin did wrong. Can anyone tell me?

I would commend you to invest in an education. The first step for you would be to learn how to search on the internet.

Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia.

"...He was convicted by the Supreme Court's Criminal Division for Holders of Political Positions of abusing his power to help his wife buy public land at an auction, and was sentenced to two years in jail. Various criminal charges await him if he returns to Thailand..."[/size]

He also evaded tax by fraudulent share transactions for the sale of Shincorp to another bunch of politicians in Singapore.[/size]

Thaksin was convicted without a trial or defense from a government destined to find fault. What was the crime? His wife bought an auctioned property. Did he threaten others not to bid? No exact detail anywhere.

Evading taxes did not exist because there was no tax on capital gains at that time. The tax evasion accusation is just that with no legal ramifications. Also at the time, it was legal for foreign investors to hold 49% of a Thai company. This was passed during his regime but proposed earlier in 2001. Many accusations that this was wrong must not be confused with the legality.

Again, anyone have anything?

You need to invest in your human capital. Start by completing your elementary education.

Thaksin's wife's purchase of public land was a crime and would be considered a crime in any civilized society.

In regard to share sale, the tax avoidance offence was selling it off market which attracts a tax which he avoided. Selling on the market does not create a tax obligation. Thaksin sold it to his children and a shonky tax haven company owned by Thaksin was involved.

All of Thaksin's crimes have not yet been exposed including the many instances of huge corruption at Suvarnabumi Airport during its construction. Thaksin's friends and family walked away with a lot of money from that.

Didn't mean to upset you so much, no need to take it so personal.

Again, no specific evidence:

When did public land purchase become a crime?

The share sale transaction was done on market via several holding companies, including Cypress Holdings, Kularb Kaew, and Cedar Holdings, therefore exempt.

The Suvarnabhumi Airport was fully investigated after the coup, "A junta (military)-appointed panel of engineers assigned to inspect the airport noted that damage to the airport was "minute," and "common." Being that this was the reason the military gave to initiate the coup demonstrates the coup should never have happened. If you are saying that Thaksin's sister got car 250 million from park contractor Latthapol Kesakotin, according to a video, he later denied it. Again, no evidence. Thaksin's friends bought land around the airport to gain from property value increase right? No, the property values actually went down.

Truly sad that hate can bind so many in the name of the blame game.

[Khun Jean]

Ah, democracy where the 51% abuse the 49% and think they are entitled too.

Maybe time for a republic, with a lot less power for the government.

Maybe ask for a copy of the US constitution and bill of rights as an example.

[Psychic]

Some people don't seem to understand why this is. It is NOT because Suthep wants to control anything else but the WAY elections are being held. During the Mr. "T" regime the constituents have been altered to fit the TRT party. Very large constituents with large numbers of voters would give one party only one seat (These they changed and were Democratic strongholds) much smaller constituents, with much fewer people were divided up in several constituents with one seat each. This means that even when people did not vote a 100% for the TRT they would still have a "glorious victory" over the Democrats.

In numbers: The TRT and Dems had respectively: 15,744,190 and 11,433,762 people vote for them. A difference in % of the population of resp. (TRT, Dems) 48.41% and 35.15%. (say 13%) This was NOT reflected in the seats in Parliament by the self dividing rule of the TRT who changed the constituents. (TRT/ Dems) 265 seats against 159 seats or in seats 106 (!!). If this had been in the range of anything like 225 to 196 this would have been a fair and acceptable result. (the difference being about 13%) or in seats 29. This would have allowed (just an example) the Democrats to team up with some other parties and still form a Government. Besides in the opposition it would have given them lots more control.

Then due to certain constituents differences it could have been anything in the range of 210 to 235 for the TRT and 190 to 220 for the Dems and it would be acceptable, justifiable and explainable.

NOW do we understand why Suthep wants a hand in the way the elections are set up?

Mind you, I do not agree with an interim Government and all that, unless it would be an agreed upon (by both parties) Business Government to boost the country back on the map first. But that would demand restraint, patience and understanding. Values that are the foundation of Buddhism, but are hard to be found in politricks.

Just my two cents worth....

Played with these numbers another way....votes/total votes*total seats.

15.7/27*424=246

11.4/27*424=179

Less of a landslide but still a highly significant difference. This method is not perfect but your method is flawed also. Of the 83% of the total vote you quote PTP won a significantly larger than 13% share.

To put it another way, of the total of 500 elected, on a strictly percentage basis the PTP would have had 242 and the Dems around 176. Again, a gain for the Dems but still a significant victory for the PTP and in no way does it somehow show an unfairness since in any kind of riding based system these anomalies will exist. They can, however, be rigged as Republicans did by shifting electoral boundaries in the American south. I suspect part of the " reforms" Suthep is looking for will incorporate just such a gerrymandered scheme.

[SebD]

So the "Democratic Party" has resolved to boycott a democratically called and officiated vote.

How....errrr..."democratic" of them.

As with almost all countries and political parties that employ the word "democrat(s)"; "democracy" or "democratic" in their title, The Democrat Party (of Thailand)'s branding is a complete oxymoron with regard to its true intent.

Abhisit's not a cousin of the Kim Jong's is he, by any chance?

[SebD]

Abhisit and the moderates lose out to the insanity that is Suthep and his backers.

As the political crisis continues to escalate its becoming obvious that Suthep will not stop until there is blood on the streets of Bangkok. There is no way the government is going to give him what he wants, the only way he can get anything like his desired unelected council is if the military conducts another coup. And the only way a coup will happen is to defuse violence street clashes that lead to bloodshed, which would give them a mandate to intervene on behalf of the Thai people.

That being said however this will be the end of the democrats as a threat to the PTP in anything resembling a "one man, one vote" election. They are plunging the country into turmoil just to spite Thaksin and his supporters.

I am no bigger fan of Thaksin than I am of Suthep and as far as I'm concerned they should find a nice quiet place in the desert outside Dubai to have it out, instead of it playing out across the streets of this country and costing the lives of innocent Thai's.

Actually IMO you are wrong! For the democrats to stand in the next election mearly gives legitimacy to PTP's ulawful,corrupt ways! It really has nothing to do with winning or losing the election. Why give legitimacy to a party that will ruin the country fiancially and politically, Because the reality is until there is a reform of Democracy there will not be Democracy and things will just continue in a circle.

To say it is the end of the political threat to PTP is just plain wrong. The Democrats aren't dissbanding as a party, so they will still be a thorn in the side of PTP. Finally PTP will find it hard to have an ellection and claim the majority of votes, to form a Government, as there is no oposition. This may actually force them to cancel the election?

"..the reality is until there is a reform of Democracy...

I'm trying to figure out what that reform might be.

Thailand's current system of Democracy hinges on the one-person-one-vote method.

Your alternative is?

[shaurene]

I now think this Suthep guy is a traitor to the people and needs to be arrested pronto.

[TerraPosse]

sadly, but this is the only way to neutralize a populist Taksin. General elections will always result in a deadlock, because poor majority will always vote for a populist, who promise to take away and share.

general election lead to socialism - economic collapse - famine.

Look at Venezuela

the only way to solve this challenge is property qualification - people who earn from state more than pay tax should not have a right to decide what to do with taxpayer's money.

Blessed are those with simplistic world views!

It must be comforting to live in that bubble of yours where everything is black & white.

I'm a net payer of taxes and you know what? I'm happy my taxes are used to pay for asylum seeker benefits, people on the dole, drunks getting free treatment at hospitals after getting into fights on the weekend, other folks frail and elderly relatives get free care and medical treatment and other people children get a free education. To keep these welfare services free to everyone I would even be willing to pay more into the tax pot because one day I will have to use one or several of these services myself. And in a democracy, however flawed it may be otherwise, it is one person one vote regardless of the person being a net-contributor or net-beneficiary. Luckily the majority of citizens appear to subscribe this form of democracy and 'strangely' despite successive general elections there's isn't even a hint of socialism (although I would put a wager that you have no idea what socialism really is), economic collapse or famine...funny that.

[Theoutsider]

waiting for the army to cash in their vote. or pushing them?

[Thaddeus]

Abhisit and the moderates lose out to the insanity that is Suthep and his backers.

As the political crisis continues to escalate its becoming obvious that Suthep will not stop until there is blood on the streets of Bangkok. There is no way the government is going to give him what he wants, the only way he can get anything like his desired unelected council is if the military conducts another coup. And the only way a coup will happen is to defuse violence street clashes that lead to bloodshed, which would give them a mandate to intervene on behalf of the Thai people.

That being said however this will be the end of the democrats as a threat to the PTP in anything resembling a "one man, one vote" election. They are plunging the country into turmoil just to spite Thaksin and his supporters.

I am no bigger fan of Thaksin than I am of Suthep and as far as I'm concerned they should find a nice quiet place in the desert outside Dubai to have it out, instead of it playing out across the streets of this country and costing the lives of innocent Thai's.

Actually IMO you are wrong! For the democrats to stand in the next election mearly gives legitimacy to PTP's ulawful,corrupt ways! It really has nothing to do with winning or losing the election. Why give legitimacy to a party that will ruin the country fiancially and politically, Because the reality is until there is a reform of Democracy there will not be Democracy and things will just continue in a circle.

To say it is the end of the political threat to PTP is just plain wrong. The Democrats aren't dissbanding as a party, so they will still be a thorn in the side of PTP. Finally PTP will find it hard to have an ellection and claim the majority of votes, to form a Government, as there is no oposition. This may actually force them to cancel the election?

"..the reality is until there is a reform of Democracy...

I'm trying to figure out what that reform might be.

Thailand's current system of Democracy hinges on the one-person-one-vote method.

Your alternative is?

No it doesn't.

It hinges on one person, one person method.

[longway]

Abhisit and the moderates lose out to the insanity that is Suthep and his backers.

As the political crisis continues to escalate its becoming obvious that Suthep will not stop until there is blood on the streets of Bangkok. There is no way the government is going to give him what he wants, the only way he can get anything like his desired unelected council is if the military conducts another coup. And the only way a coup will happen is to defuse violence street clashes that lead to bloodshed, which would give them a mandate to intervene on behalf of the Thai people.

That being said however this will be the end of the democrats as a threat to the PTP in anything resembling a "one man, one vote" election. They are plunging the country into turmoil just to spite Thaksin and his supporters.

I am no bigger fan of Thaksin than I am of Suthep and as far as I'm concerned they should find a nice quiet place in the desert outside Dubai to have it out, instead of it playing out across the streets of this country and costing the lives of innocent Thai's.

The Democrats had no choice. Thaksin Shinawatra is buying the election like he bought others. The whole process is corrupt and needs to be made honest, open and free from corruption.

The sad aspect of this is the Redshirts are supporting the governing of the country by an unelected outside party who just happens to be a fugitive from justice for corruption while in office.

I never liked Thaksin. He had the smell of the demagogue about him from the get-go. Nonetheless, what the opposition forces are doing here is that they are attempting to drag the country back into the Dark Ages. If I were Thai, I'd vote for Yingluck's crew, purely on a point of principle. And then the next election I'd vote against them -assuming of course that there was an opposition party to vote for. The Thai people are being very, very badly served here by their supposed representatives.

The only thing that could validate the democrats stance is if they convinced enough people to vote for NOTA in the Feb 2 election, assuming it goes ahead, in every other scenario they will lose or look foolish.

[longway]

Abhisit and the moderates lose out to the insanity that is Suthep and his backers.

As the political crisis continues to escalate its becoming obvious that Suthep will not stop until there is blood on the streets of Bangkok. There is no way the government is going to give him what he wants, the only way he can get anything like his desired unelected council is if the military conducts another coup. And the only way a coup will happen is to defuse violence street clashes that lead to bloodshed, which would give them a mandate to intervene on behalf of the Thai people.

That being said however this will be the end of the democrats as a threat to the PTP in anything resembling a "one man, one vote" election. They are plunging the country into turmoil just to spite Thaksin and his supporters.

I am no bigger fan of Thaksin than I am of Suthep and as far as I'm concerned they should find a nice quiet place in the desert outside Dubai to have it out, instead of it playing out across the streets of this country and costing the lives of innocent Thai's.

Actually IMO you are wrong! For the democrats to stand in the next election mearly gives legitimacy to PTP's ulawful,corrupt ways! It really has nothing to do with winning or losing the election. Why give legitimacy to a party that will ruin the country fiancially and politically, Because the reality is until there is a reform of Democracy there will not be Democracy and things will just continue in a circle.

To say it is the end of the political threat to PTP is just plain wrong. The Democrats aren't dissbanding as a party, so they will still be a thorn in the side of PTP. Finally PTP will find it hard to have an ellection and claim the majority of votes, to form a Government, as there is no oposition. This may actually force them to cancel the election?

"..the reality is until there is a reform of Democracy...

I'm trying to figure out what that reform might be.

Thailand's current system of Democracy hinges on the one-person-one-vote method.

Your alternative is?

Allowing a NOTA vote and wherever it comes first elections are held again with new candidates.

[JAG]

Abhisit and the moderates lose out to the insanity that is Suthep and his backers.

As the political crisis continues to escalate its becoming obvious that Suthep will not stop until there is blood on the streets of Bangkok. There is no way the government is going to give him what he wants, the only way he can get anything like his desired unelected council is if the military conducts another coup. And the only way a coup will happen is to defuse violence street clashes that lead to bloodshed, which would give them a mandate to intervene on behalf of the Thai people.

That being said however this will be the end of the democrats as a threat to the PTP in anything resembling a "one man, one vote" election. They are plunging the country into turmoil just to spite Thaksin and his supporters.

I am no bigger fan of Thaksin than I am of Suthep and as far as I'm concerned they should find a nice quiet place in the desert outside Dubai to have it out, instead of it playing out across the streets of this country and costing the lives of innocent Thai's.

Actually IMO you are wrong! For the democrats to stand in the next election mearly gives legitimacy to PTP's ulawful,corrupt ways! It really has nothing to do with winning or losing the election. Why give legitimacy to a party that will ruin the country fiancially and politically, Because the reality is until there is a reform of Democracy there will not be Democracy and things will just continue in a circle.

To say it is the end of the political threat to PTP is just plain wrong. The Democrats aren't dissbanding as a party, so they will still be a thorn in the side of PTP. Finally PTP will find it hard to have an ellection and claim the majority of votes, to form a Government, as there is no oposition. This may actually force them to cancel the election?

"..the reality is until there is a reform of Democracy...

I'm trying to figure out what that reform might be.

Thailand's current system of Democracy hinges on the one-person-one-vote method.

Your alternative is?

One person one vote, but only if those persons can be relied upon to vote the way Suthep and mates say they should. Anyone else doesn't get a vote.

[Bluespunk]

Abhisit and the moderates lose out to the insanity that is Suthep and his backers.

As the political crisis continues to escalate its becoming obvious that Suthep will not stop until there is blood on the streets of Bangkok. There is no way the government is going to give him what he wants, the only way he can get anything like his desired unelected council is if the military conducts another coup. And the only way a coup will happen is to defuse violence street clashes that lead to bloodshed, which would give them a mandate to intervene on behalf of the Thai people.

That being said however this will be the end of the democrats as a threat to the PTP in anything resembling a "one man, one vote" election. They are plunging the country into turmoil just to spite Thaksin and his supporters.

I am no bigger fan of Thaksin than I am of Suthep and as far as I'm concerned they should find a nice quiet place in the desert outside Dubai to have it out, instead of it playing out across the streets of this country and costing the lives of innocent Thai's.

I have to concur that I fail to understand what is really going on however in such a culturally corrupted country is is neigh on impossible to expect to make omelets without breaking eggs. Throughout this recent spate of protests even you would have to admit that there has been a very high degree of restraint and Suthep and a large ground swell of the country are simply sick to the back teeth with the PTP, Shiniwatra's and bleeding Isan.

It is most foreseeable that the Dems will want to delay and forthcoming election until some reforms are in place so that we do not end up with simply more of the same As quoted by A.E. Insanity is doing the same thing time after time and expecting a different result.

AT LEAST AT THIS POINT IN TIME SUTHEP APPEARS TO WANT TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE

as did franco, mussolini and every other dictator throughout history, didn't make it any better for those under their rule.

[Maha Sarakham Marty]

Suthep has played his hand.

The Dems don't want an election because they know they can't win it.

Therefore he wants chaos.

The people pulling his strings are willing to risk all (read my earlier posts) because the prize is so big.

Who specifically are the "people pulling his strings"?

some of the people behind the 2006 coup, that's what yellow shirts and people from Bangkoks' middle class say, this was all planned out half year ago, I was told about the coming uprising in August.

Who told you what in August?

and, again, who specifically are you and bobmac referring to?

[Maha Sarakham Marty]

Suthep has played his hand.

The Dems don't want an election because they know they can't win it.

Therefore he wants chaos.

The people pulling his strings are willing to risk all (read my earlier posts) because the prize is so big.

A totalitarian state run paying lip service to monarchy, the establishment back in control.

Big business won't care, tourists don't care as long as there is some signs of stability.

But of course there are the people, who won't stand for this.

So we need to have a revolution and sort out these elites once and for all.

As I stated earlier, we are witnessing the death rattle of the establishment, who won't go down without a fight but it's too late, you can't put the genie back in the bottle.

The military needs to be careful, the USA won't accept any more coups which put these bastards back into power.

So just as the establishment yielded power to the people in most western democracies, so they will yield here too.

No, if there's a death rattle, it's the death rattle of a corrupt government that wants so much to continue stealing. The smart thing for them to do was to compromise and to work together with the opposition and impliment some reforms. Now, look at what has happened. It's going to be 2006 all over again. You think the USA cares if there's a coup. They'll do their usual doublespeak about supporting democracy blah blah blah then it's business as usual. 2006 is the perfect example. Any sanctions by the Americans or anyone else for that better?

The yellows are just Bangkok public servants

Bangkok has 200,000 public servants?!?!

That sounds plausible. As plausible as the rest of your rant.

[sjaak327]

Of course it is more than that. Of course how effective has the opposition been, and how can the opposition ever hope to beat the PT when they don't even field candidates in an election.

Reform in a democratic system can only be done when those reforms have a clear electoral mandate, not the way it was done in 2007 when the abolished 1999 constitution was replaced with a less democratic one by a militairy government in a take it or leave it vote.

Why are the democrats hell bend on circumventing the democratic system, instead of using the system to their advantage, and why have they yet to figure out that Thaksin's popularity isn't rooted in vote buying, and that their actions (boycotting elections, trying to ride on a coup) are only making things worse.

Contrary to their own belief, the Thai electorate isn't stupid nor is it uneducated.

Reform is needed in many "democratic" countries where certain parties continue to get majorities. Zimbabwe is an example.

I have no knowledge about Zimbabwe, what I do know is that for democracy to work, one needs to respect the outcome of elections. I know in Thailand this seems to be a novel concept, but don't think for one minute that the people not respecting the outcome have the interest of Thailand as a society on their agenda. They only want their hands in the cooky jar. This is the bottom line, and again, I can't believe "educated" people can defend what the "democrats" have been trying to pull for the last 7 years. They are without a doubt just as crooked and corrupt as Thaksin.

The gross neglect of a large percentage of the Thai population has to stop. Thaksin isn't the issue here, he is just a guy who got lucky, the larger issue is the neglect of these people, that is the only advantage he has, take that away and he is history. The democrats still lack the imagination and wits to realise this.

The fun thing is. The democrats are so useless, even Chuwit's dog would beat them in an election !

[Maha Sarakham Marty]

Instead of boycotting and protesting why don't the opposition mount a campaign to gain popularity in rural areas- it may take them longer to gain power but they will have done so legitimately instead of relying on an army to put them in power. Changing government through violence and disorder is just another manifestation of corruption.

Ironically, "violence and disorder" by red shirts is exactly what the Dems faced when they previously attempted what you suggest, "campaign to gain popularity in rural areas" of Isaan.

Do you have any other suggestions on how they should deal with that?

[SebD]

Abhisit and the moderates lose out to the insanity that is Suthep and his backers.

As the political crisis continues to escalate its becoming obvious that Suthep will not stop until there is blood on the streets of Bangkok. There is no way the government is going to give him what he wants, the only way he can get anything like his desired unelected council is if the military conducts another coup. And the only way a coup will happen is to defuse violence street clashes that lead to bloodshed, which would give them a mandate to intervene on behalf of the Thai people.

That being said however this will be the end of the democrats as a threat to the PTP in anything resembling a "one man, one vote" election. They are plunging the country into turmoil just to spite Thaksin and his supporters.

I am no bigger fan of Thaksin than I am of Suthep and as far as I'm concerned they should find a nice quiet place in the desert outside Dubai to have it out, instead of it playing out across the streets of this country and costing the lives of innocent Thai's.

Actually IMO you are wrong! For the democrats to stand in the next election mearly gives legitimacy to PTP's ulawful,corrupt ways! It really has nothing to do with winning or losing the election. Why give legitimacy to a party that will ruin the country fiancially and politically, Because the reality is until there is a reform of Democracy there will not be Democracy and things will just continue in a circle.

To say it is the end of the political threat to PTP is just plain wrong. The Democrats aren't dissbanding as a party, so they will still be a thorn in the side of PTP. Finally PTP will find it hard to have an ellection and claim the majority of votes, to form a Government, as there is no oposition. This may actually force them to cancel the election?

"..the reality is until there is a reform of Democracy...

I'm trying to figure out what that reform might be.

Thailand's current system of Democracy hinges on the one-person-one-vote method.

Your alternative is?

No it doesn't.

It hinges on one person, one person method.

No it doesn't. Errrm....I think you'll find it does. (Which somewhat trashes anything and every ignorant other thing else you may say, doesn't it?).

It hinges on one person, one person method. I won't even pretend to know what that means.

Keep spouting though (this is fun).

[SebD]

Abhisit and the moderates lose out to the insanity that is Suthep and his backers.

As the political crisis continues to escalate its becoming obvious that Suthep will not stop until there is blood on the streets of Bangkok. There is no way the government is going to give him what he wants, the only way he can get anything like his desired unelected council is if the military conducts another coup. And the only way a coup will happen is to defuse violence street clashes that lead to bloodshed, which would give them a mandate to intervene on behalf of the Thai people.

That being said however this will be the end of the democrats as a threat to the PTP in anything resembling a "one man, one vote" election. They are plunging the country into turmoil just to spite Thaksin and his supporters.

I am no bigger fan of Thaksin than I am of Suthep and as far as I'm concerned they should find a nice quiet place in the desert outside Dubai to have it out, instead of it playing out across the streets of this country and costing the lives of innocent Thai's.

Actually IMO you are wrong! For the democrats to stand in the next election mearly gives legitimacy to PTP's ulawful,corrupt ways! It really has nothing to do with winning or losing the election. Why give legitimacy to a party that will ruin the country fiancially and politically, Because the reality is until there is a reform of Democracy there will not be Democracy and things will just continue in a circle.

To say it is the end of the political threat to PTP is just plain wrong. The Democrats aren't dissbanding as a party, so they will still be a thorn in the side of PTP. Finally PTP will find it hard to have an ellection and claim the majority of votes, to form a Government, as there is no oposition. This may actually force them to cancel the election?

"..the reality is until there is a reform of Democracy...

I'm trying to figure out what that reform might be.

Thailand's current system of Democracy hinges on the one-person-one-vote method.

Your alternative is?

One person one vote, but only if those persons can be relied upon to vote the way Suthep and mates say they should. Anyone else doesn't get a vote.

One person one vote, but only if those persons can be relied upon to vote the way Suthep and mates say they should. Anyone else doesn't get a vote.

Now you're talking.

"The Democratic Party" philosophy, in a nutshell.

Their (and your) slogan should read "Only OUR votes count. Only we can rule. A New Democracy for All".

You and your ilk make my skin crawl.

[zydeco]

Theoretically, what's so bad about "fascism?" In effect, that is how Singapore is governed. And even in Italy, Mussolini all but broke the power of the mafia--the reason they hated him so much. But forget Mussolini and Italy. Perhaps we need to stop seeing Asian adaptations of alternate political models through Western filters. "Democracy" in Thailand has morphed into the worst version imaginable of Gilded Age politics in America. It is one Western model that is not working here, for sure, filter or no filter. Too many Westerners hold on to "democracy" like some sort of mystery cult from the Roman Empire, a spiritual elixir that holds the solution for everything. I don't really think that's so.

[diehard60]

Well this is good news. They have just killed themselves in any election coming in the future. This was not the way to do it. Now we might see more blood in the streets like three years ago. It is bad but will happen. But on a good note the baht is going down to where it should be.

[Maha Sarakham Marty]

Who else is getting tired of hearing how when anything happens - like the Dems pulling out of the election - it's Thaksin's making?

You might be getting sick of hearing it, but it doesn't mean that it isn't true. The political problems in Thailand since late 2005 have mostly been Thaksin's making.

8 years of strife and all down to Thaksin. Not even a smidgeon of involvement by the rich and famous and the anonymous? Boy it must be great to have such a simple view on life.............though on second thoughts

Realizing it's a struggle for you, but "mostly" and "all" are not synonyms.

Might be best if you don't replace a word with another word, of your own choosing, that doesn't mean the same.

[SebD]

Theoretically, what's so bad about "fascism?" In effect, that is how Singapore is governed. And even in Italy, Mussolini all but broke the power of the mafia--the reason they hated him so much. But forget Mussolini and Italy. Perhaps we need to stop seeing Asian adaptations of alternate political models through Western filters. "Democracy" in Thailand has morphed into the worst version imaginable of Gilded Age politics in America. It is one Western model that is not working here, for sure, filter or no filter. Too many Westerners hold on to "democracy" like some sort of mystery cult from the Roman Empire, a spiritual elixir that holds the solution for everything. I don't really think that's so.

What are you even talking about?

Do you even know, yourself?

Fascism (Or ANY dictatorship, for that matter) is preferable to majority rule?

The school bully is always right and always gets what he wants and looks after his spies/lieutenants and vice versa. That surely IS a "mafia".

All pretty cool until, rather than others, it's YOU who becomes a target of the bully.

Is that really what you are promoting for Thailand?

[HerIndoors]

In 'normal' democracies, the losing party sits down and works out why the masses have not voted for them and then make changes to policies. Not so the Democrats.... haven't won an election in years but still stubornly cling to the idea that the masses 'just keep voting for the wrong party' and continue with the same same. Einstein once said that stupidity is continuing to do the same thing but expecting different results. The Democrats had the chance to reform when last in power but chose to do nothing. As a consequence they have all but given tacit approval for the corruption that is the Thaksin regime room to move and grow. So now, in another blindingly brilliant act of political stupidity, they will take their bat and ball and go home. In universities around the world, when studying Political Science 101, there is a general concensus of opinion as to what counts as democracy WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THAILAND.

There will never be any true reform (at least not in my lifetime) as long as the feudal / patronage system so deeply entrenched in the Thai character and system exists. Survey after survey of Thai opinion confirms that coruption is tolerated... so what do they expect?

Anyway, this is their country to stuff up as they see fit.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[Maha Sarakham Marty]

Every 5 years the Dem Party would find the village and say "vote for us it will be better next time" so the village people did and nothing changed. Off they went to Bangkok never to be seen for another 5 years. Along came Thaksin "Vote for me it will be different next time" so in 2001 they give the new guy a try. The guy delivered his 30 baht health care and ever since he has been the messiah of the millions. Its not that Thaksin gave them alot its just that the DEms gave them nothing for 60 years. The treatment by the so called elites of poor people in Thailand will never be forgotten and it is inconceivable to think that the fact they are totally unelectable will ever change.

These few people cannot just dismiss 15,000,000 voters like it was the 1950's. If they remove the government of choice there can be only bloodshed but if civil war is the way forward we cannot stop it. Only hope the right people cop the bullets and not the foot soldiers on both sides. A little bit of Nicolae Causcescu...round the back for certain individuals

Nice little red shirt bed time story. Do you realise that the Democrats have only been in power for 9 years in total?

Of course he doesn't.

That's not in the script he's reciting.

[Maha Sarakham Marty]

I do wonder if so many farang hate Thaksin because he closed the bars at 2:00 am?

You'd do well to keep wondering if you think that is the reason.

[Maha Sarakham Marty]

Since they will only get 25% of the vote anyway , who cares if they boycott it or not.

Suthep is not interested in Democracy or the electorate, only in his own personal gain.

Il Duce of Bangkok - he makes less sense that Oswald Mosely did back in the 40s, rants and gesticulates more than Mussolini and makes as much sense as a chocolate ashtray.

The other side are no better but at least Yingluck is easy on the eye...........

I'm curious about the source for your figure of "only 25% of the vote" ?

Wikipedia gives the Dems 35.15% in 2011 and 39.63% in December-2007.

Facts are the strong suit of the Thaksin script reciters.