Thai Democrats resolve to boycott February 2 election

[SebD]

Theoretically, what's so bad about "fascism?" In effect, that is how Singapore is governed. And even in Italy, Mussolini all but broke the power of the mafia--the reason they hated him so much. But forget Mussolini and Italy. Perhaps we need to stop seeing Asian adaptations of alternate political models through Western filters. "Democracy" in Thailand has morphed into the worst version imaginable of Gilded Age politics in America. It is one Western model that is not working here, for sure, filter or no filter. Too many Westerners hold on to "democracy" like some sort of mystery cult from the Roman Empire, a spiritual elixir that holds the solution for everything. I don't really think that's so.

Too many Westerners hold on to "democracy" like some sort of mystery cult from the Roman Empire,

Let me guess......You were educated after the 11-Plus "filtering" was discarded, I reckon.

I believe you'll find that the Roman Empire was not a Democracy. It was a Hereditary Autocracy (as is North Korea, today).

You really ought to use Google and Wikipedia more as it might help you distinguish between the ancient Romans and the Ancient Greeks (who are are attributed with inventing Democracy).

No cigar this time, matey.

[Maha Sarakham Marty]

Everyone rattles on here about the Democrats not upholding democracy and the law in Thailand. Do most people here believe Thailand is a democracy, and if so do the current government work in a democratic way? Its a Shinawatra dictatorship, who now have also bought some of the military. The ordinary people of Thailand deserve a better government who work for the people. Something needs to be done.

Who are you to talk about Shinawatra dictatorship maybe you do not known but they work for the people. Did you ever meet any Shinawatra's? Where do you get your ideas about them do you known anyone except me that has meet them?

I've met relatives of Kornthep Viriya, the shipping clerk who was going to testify against Shin Corp with evidence of tax evasion and false importation documents... until he was murdered.

Does that count?

[SebD]

Everyone rattles on here about the Democrats not upholding democracy and the law in Thailand. Do most people here believe Thailand is a democracy, and if so do the current government work in a democratic way? Its a Shinawatra dictatorship, who now have also bought some of the military. The ordinary people of Thailand deserve a better government who work for the people. Something needs to be done.

Who are you to talk about Shinawatra dictatorship maybe you do not known but they work for the people. Did you ever meet any Shinawatra's? Where do you get your ideas about them do you known anyone except me that has meet them?

I've met relatives of Kornthep Viriya, the shipping clerk who was going to testify against Shin Corp with evidence of tax evasion and false importation documents... until he was murdered.

Does that count?

Evidence, please.

Gossip and hearsay is not enough.

Who are you, even, Maha Sarakham Marty?

I could say I personally saw (not heard from A N Other) any one of the opposing party do pretty much anything I wanted to say.

It don't mean a thing without evidence.

[Maha Sarakham Marty]

Who else is getting tired of hearing how when anything happens - like the Dems pulling out of the election - it's Thaksin's making?

You might be getting sick of hearing it, but it doesn't mean that it isn't true. The political problems in Thailand since late 2005 have mostly been Thaksin's making.

8 years of strife and all down to Thaksin. Not even a smidgeon of involvement by the rich and famous and the anonymous? Boy it must be great to have such a simple view on life.............though on second thoughts

Bingo! My life is simple but that doesn't mean i am. Are you saying then that Thaksin is the only corrupt politician in Thailand and the root of all evil in Thailand is down to him? because that sounds pretty simplistic to me. but wait....

That's the problem when posters re-write what others post to change the meaning.

It results in people believing the false re-write.

(Refer to post # 295)

Edited December 21, 2013 by Maha Sarakham Marty

[Maha Sarakham Marty]

They stand united! So far, pretty much everything, they have planned, has worked in their favor. I think, soon it will be "Bye, Bye Miss Yingluck" or Yingluck runs out of luck

I'm not so sure. So far Yingluck and PT have played an extremely smart game, by giving in to most opposition demands. curtailing the red shirt mobsters and basically gaining the moral high ground. However I'm convinced when push come to shove, the status quo on the streets will change and the current -caretaker- government and its supporters will not stand idly by and the whole business will descend into chaos and bloodshed :-(

Sadly I think you may be correct, "The reds" have been incredibly calm despite everything Suthep has done to inflame the situation, the action of the gutless Dems may well be the catalyst to chaos.

The catalyst to chaos was a cloned PM and the mindless PTP trying to ramrod an amnesty through.

[Maha Sarakham Marty]

The general hate rally cry against Thaksin reminds me of another in history - Hitler and his rally for the country to hate the Jews. Point to a scapegoat for all the country's problems and create a mob. Hate is the heart of a mob's mentality. Truly sad.

I still can't find any solid evidence of what Thaksin did wrong. Can anyone tell me?

I would commend you to invest in an education. The first step for you would be to learn how to search on the internet.

Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia.

"...He was convicted by the Supreme Court's Criminal Division for Holders of Political Positions of abusing his power to help his wife buy public land at an auction, and was sentenced to two years in jail. Various criminal charges await him if he returns to Thailand..."[/size]

He also evaded tax by fraudulent share transactions for the sale of Shincorp to another bunch of politicians in Singapore.[/size]

Thaksin was convicted without a trial or defense from a government destined to find fault.

Again, anyone have anything?

It might be good to begin with the truth, even if it is uncomfortable for you.

Thaksin had a trial.

Thaksin had defense attorneys representing him.

The government was his brother-in-law's.

[brit1984]

^^ it doesn't matter who you (or anyone else) believe started it - personally i blame the big bang

what matters is how to stop the chaos and achieve peace (and political stability)

a coup of the democratically elected (but corrupt) government by an unelected (and just as corrupt) lunatic will not bring peace - quite the opposite in fact

[chooka]

If Yingluk wins in a landslide then don't come crying and burning the streets Democrats.

Edited December 22, 2013 by chooka

[Bpuumike]

Stay focussed.

There is a 20 Trillion loan coming up for grabs.

Originated by whom, you should ask.

It will keep the rice farmers farming rice.

Except it won't. In my area none of the youngsters want anything to do with it and the elders are deceasing at an alarming rate.

Unfortunately I can only see problems building up.

[Maha Sarakham Marty]

Everyone rattles on here about the Democrats not upholding democracy and the law in Thailand. Do most people here believe Thailand is a democracy, and if so do the current government work in a democratic way? Its a Shinawatra dictatorship, who now have also bought some of the military. The ordinary people of Thailand deserve a better government who work for the people. Something needs to be done.

Who are you to talk about Shinawatra dictatorship maybe you do not known but they work for the people. Did you ever meet any Shinawatra's? Where do you get your ideas about them do you known anyone except me that has meet them?

I've met relatives of Kornthep Viriya, the shipping clerk who was going to testify against Shin Corp with evidence of tax evasion and false importation documents... until he was murdered.

Does that count?

Evidence, please.

Gossip and hearsay is not enough.

Who are you, even, Maha Sarakham Marty?

I could say I personally saw (not heard from A N Other) any one of the opposing party do pretty much anything I wanted to say.

It don't mean a thing without evidence.

What evidence would you like to see?

Lots of factual reports, as opposed to "gossip and hearsay", out there about Kornthep.

Who are you, SebD?

[zydeco]

Who are you to talk about Shinawatra dictatorship maybe you do not known but they work for the people. Did you ever meet any Shinawatra's? Where do you get your ideas about them do you known anyone except me that has meet them?

I've met relatives of Kornthep Viriya, the shipping clerk who was going to testify against Shin Corp with evidence of tax evasion and false importation documents... until he was murdered.

Does that count?

Evidence, please.

Gossip and hearsay is not enough.

Who are you, even, Maha Sarakham Marty?

I could say I personally saw (not heard from A N Other) any one of the opposing party do pretty much anything I wanted to say.

It don't mean a thing without evidence.

What evidence would you like to see?

Lots of factual reports, as opposed to "gossip and hearsay", out there about Kornthep.

Who are you, SebD?

He (SebD) is someone who self-admittedly receives his education from wikipedia.

[Bluespunk]

Theoretically, what's so bad about "fascism?" In effect, that is how Singapore is governed. And even in Italy, Mussolini all but broke the power of the mafia--the reason they hated him so much. But forget Mussolini and Italy. Perhaps we need to stop seeing Asian adaptations of alternate political models through Western filters. "Democracy" in Thailand has morphed into the worst version imaginable of Gilded Age politics in America. It is one Western model that is not working here, for sure, filter or no filter. Too many Westerners hold on to "democracy" like some sort of mystery cult from the Roman Empire, a spiritual elixir that holds the solution for everything. I don't really think that's so.

What's wrong with fascism? Hmm, tough one, let me think.

How about, everything?

P.S. democracy came from Greece, fascism from the Roman Empire. One encapsulates freedom of thought, the will of the people, theatre, political philosophy and scientific thought that explored the world around them. The other was a genocidal, empire building military machine that exterminated all who opposed them.

On the other hand both supported slavery.

Edited December 22, 2013 by Bluespunk

[Bluespunk]

If Yingluk wins in a landslide then don't come crying and burning the streets Democrats.

Won't happen, the reds have a monopoly on burning stuff down. Copywrite protected as well I'm led to believe.

Edited December 22, 2013 by Bluespunk

[zydeco]

Theoretically, what's so bad about "fascism?" In effect, that is how Singapore is governed. And even in Italy, Mussolini all but broke the power of the mafia--the reason they hated him so much. But forget Mussolini and Italy. Perhaps we need to stop seeing Asian adaptations of alternate political models through Western filters. "Democracy" in Thailand has morphed into the worst version imaginable of Gilded Age politics in America. It is one Western model that is not working here, for sure, filter or no filter. Too many Westerners hold on to "democracy" like some sort of mystery cult from the Roman Empire, a spiritual elixir that holds the solution for everything. I don't really think that's so.

What's wrong with fascism? Hmm, tough one, let me think.

How about, everything?

P.S. democracy came from Greece, fascism from the Roman Empire. One encapsulates freedom of thought, the will of the people, theatre, political philosophy and scientific thought that explored the world around them. The other was a genocidal, empire building military machine that exterminated all who opposed them.

On the other hand both supported slavery.

Simplistic. All sorts of belief cults (aka Mystery Cults) operated in Rome. And, btw, Athens also built an expansionistic, warlike empire. For that matter, so did democratic Britain and the US. The former was noted for its acts of slaughter, exploitation and murder throughout Africa and the Indian subcontinent. Meanwhile, the Native Americans rapid dwindling came about in no small part due to the ethics and morality imbued in American democracy. Rome lasted a thousand years (nearly two thousand if you include Byzantium) and provided the foundation for the civilization of the West.

[tartempion]

Will Thai people grow up some day?

Don't count on it

[Bluespunk]

Theoretically, what's so bad about "fascism?" In effect, that is how Singapore is governed. And even in Italy, Mussolini all but broke the power of the mafia--the reason they hated him so much. But forget Mussolini and Italy. Perhaps we need to stop seeing Asian adaptations of alternate political models through Western filters. "Democracy" in Thailand has morphed into the worst version imaginable of Gilded Age politics in America. It is one Western model that is not working here, for sure, filter or no filter. Too many Westerners hold on to "democracy" like some sort of mystery cult from the Roman Empire, a spiritual elixir that holds the solution for everything. I don't really think that's so.

What's wrong with fascism? Hmm, tough one, let me think.

How about, everything?

P.S. democracy came from Greece, fascism from the Roman Empire. One encapsulates freedom of thought, the will of the people, theatre, political philosophy and scientific thought that explored the world around them. The other was a genocidal, empire building military machine that exterminated all who opposed them.

On the other hand both supported slavery.

Simplistic. All sorts of belief cults (aka Mystery Cults) operated in Rome. And, btw, Athens also built an expansionistic, warlike empire. For that matter, so did democratic Britain and the US. The former was noted for its acts of slaughter, exploitation and murder throughout Africa and the Indian subcontinent. Meanwhile, the Native Americans rapid dwindling came about in no small part due to the ethics and morality imbued in American democracy. Rome lasted a thousand years (nearly two thousand if you include Byzantium) and provided the foundation for the civilization of the West.

Yes it did and it provided the foundation for all the empire building crimes you list. Yep the Greeks built an empire and in the case of Alexander in a quite brutal manner. They, however did not espouse genocide as a policy, the Romans did and frequently acted upon it, as have fascist and the nationalistic, jingoistic western empire builders who followed them.

Suthep represents these poisonous values and any regime following his elitist schemes will be as bad as anything the thaksin dynasty represents.

[bobmac10]

The yellow shirts were manipulated by the same people who are now running Suthep.

They don't care what they have to destroy to regain control.

That's why they won't go to the people in an election.

Your horse is dead, stop flogging it.

Yes once again, it's the faceless and nameless 'ammarts' that are running the show behind the scenes, manipulating events trying to regain control blah blah blah.

Who's the one flogging a dead horse?

As you would be aware, there are restrictions about what we are allowed to discuss on this forum.

However, why don't you skip the bar today and go find a good bookshop and invest in a volume on Thai history for the past 200 years.

Until you are able to raise the level of your argument above denial, I cannot continue this discussion with you.

[SebD]

@ Maha Sarakham Marty:

What evidence would you like to see?

All of it. Any of it, even. Anyone can spout words. SHow us the money.

Lots of factual reports, as opposed to "gossip and hearsay", out there about Kornthep.

Provide the links, at least, if you can't be bothered or are unable to support your assertions otherwise.

Who are you, SebD?

I'm Sebastian Tristan Dangerfield (that weren't so hard) but I must remind you that I asked first.....and you answered a question with a question. Very naughty. Reveal yourself, as I just did.

Edited December 22, 2013 by SebD

[zydeco]

@ Zydeco:

What evidence would you like to see?

All of it. Any of it, even. Anyone can spout words. SHow us the money.

Lots of factual reports, as opposed to "gossip and hearsay", out there about Kornthep.

Provide the links, at least, if you can't be bothered or are unable to support your assertions otherwise.

Who are you, SebD?

I'm Sebastian Tristan Dangerfield (that weren't so hard) but I must remind you that I asked first.....and you answered a question with a question. Very naughty. Reveal yourself, as I just did.

I believe all those questions were posed to you by Maha, not me. Please sharpen your reading skills to the point that you can at least identify which posters are writing what.

[TerraPosse]

Of course it is more than that. Of course how effective has the opposition been, and how can the opposition ever hope to beat the PT when they don't even field candidates in an election.

Reform in a democratic system can only be done when those reforms have a clear electoral mandate, not the way it was done in 2007 when the abolished 1999 constitution was replaced with a less democratic one by a militairy government in a take it or leave it vote.

Why are the democrats hell bend on circumventing the democratic system, instead of using the system to their advantage, and why have they yet to figure out that Thaksin's popularity isn't rooted in vote buying, and that their actions (boycotting elections, trying to ride on a coup) are only making things worse.

Contrary to their own belief, the Thai electorate isn't stupid nor is it uneducated.

Reform is needed in many "democratic" countries where certain parties continue to get majorities. Zimbabwe is an example.

Are you seriously insinuating that the continuous success that parties related in some form to the Shinawatras enjoyed at the ballot box in free elections in Thailand is in any form comparable to the terror unleashed by ZANU(PF) in the run up to elections to maintain Mugabes hold onto power in Zimbabwe? Seriously?!

I've lived several years in Zimbabwe and Thailand. I met frail old Mugabe twice. I have witnessed elections in Zimbabwe and in Thailand and it's like day and night, chalk and cheese. Zimbabwe is a one party state in all but name. The armed forces have on more than one occasion announced that an election victory by the MDC (or any other opposition) will not be acceptable to them (ok granted, that does sound exactly like the democrats in Thailand). Fancy finding out how the impoverished electorate gets treated by the powers that be in Zimbabwe? I suggest reading "The Fear" by Peter Godwin. Friends of mine were arrested and/or tortured simply for being members/supporters of the opposition. Zimbabwe doesn't need just reforms. It needs a revolution (unlikely, still) or a biological solution (more likely by the day) followed by some serious upheavel.

Elections in Thailand by comparison, corruption aside and even with its 'vote buying' (since all parties engage in it from personal observations, it maintains a level playing field and yes, the democrats are doing it too), are a walk in the park and only marginally less free and fair than elections in a lot of western democracies and lot more so than in surrounding SE Asian countries (*cough* Cambodia *cough*). Reforms, if this was really the motivation, could be carried out in the existing democratic framework in Thailand despite its warts, corruption and institutional weaknesses if there was a political will for reforms and a majority amongst the people. And there is one way to find out...

Next time try and be smarter when choosing a 'blood-thirsty dictatorship/regime' to whip up some emotive equivalence to your favourite pet 'Shin' voodoo doll. After all, this is the intertubes and you will be found out wanting.

[SebD]

@ Zydeco:

He (SebD) is someone who self-admittedly receives his education from wikipedia.

No. You really ought to pay more attention and absorb that which you read. I suggested the poster consult Google and Wikipedia. I never said I needed to.

And what's wrong with Wikipedia, anyway, except a "chortle-chortle populist view that it is somehow below pretty much everyone's knowledge on any given subject. It's rally quite tiresome and speaks volumes more about the denigrators of Wikipedia than it can evr justifiably say about the service, itself.

You'll be beating up on someone/something else, without a right of reply, next.

[Bluespunk]

@ Maha Sarakham Marty:

What evidence would you like to see?

All of it. Any of it, even. Anyone can spout words. SHow us the money.

Lots of factual reports, as opposed to "gossip and hearsay", out there about Kornthep.

Provide the links, at least, if you can't be bothered or are unable to support your assertions otherwise.

Who are you, SebD?

I'm Sebastian Tristan Dangerfield (that weren't so hard) but I must remind you that I asked first.....and you answered a question with a question. Very naughty. Reveal yourself, as I just did.

As in the J.P. Donleavy character?

[MaiChai]

^^ it doesn't matter who you (or anyone else) believe started it - personally i blame the big bang

what matters is how to stop the chaos and achieve peace (and political stability)

a coup of the democratically elected (but corrupt) government by an unelected (and just as corrupt) lunatic will not bring peace - quite the opposite in fact

Why do you describe him as a lunatic? He is certainly good at getting alot of people out to protest. I would not describe him as insane though.

Regarding his corruptness; yes he was involved in some corruption before, but i dont see Suthep and his family dominating the Democrat party. He just one of a number of MPs (or should i say was).

If PT win the next election, then nothing has changed and we still have a Taksin run country. Do you think that is the way forward? We would see more checks and balances removed, the press muzzled (like before when Taksin was threatening them), no working opposition in government, no one opposing the Shinawatras (either bought or intimidated ). It would be worse that what we have experienced so far.

Taksin was the only politician who did not step down when he was rumbled for corruption. There is an understanding in Thai politics that when you have had your fill at the trough of corruption and been rumbled, you step down and someone else moves in. Taksin refused to follow this and would not relinquish power.

[SebD]

@ Zydeco:

What evidence would you like to see?

All of it. Any of it, even. Anyone can spout words. SHow us the money.

Lots of factual reports, as opposed to "gossip and hearsay", out there about Kornthep.

Provide the links, at least, if you can't be bothered or are unable to support your assertions otherwise.

Who are you, SebD?

I'm Sebastian Tristan Dangerfield (that weren't so hard) but I must remind you that I asked first.....and you answered a question with a question. Very naughty. Reveal yourself, as I just did.

I believe all those questions were posed to you by Maha, not me. Please sharpen your reading skills to the point that you can at least identify which posters are writing what.

My eyes are old.

My brain is weary.

But you're a piece of cake, nonetheless.

[SebD]

@ Maha Sarakham Marty:

What evidence would you like to see?

All of it. Any of it, even. Anyone can spout words. SHow us the money.

Lots of factual reports, as opposed to "gossip and hearsay", out there about Kornthep.

Provide the links, at least, if you can't be bothered or are unable to support your assertions otherwise.

Who are you, SebD?

I'm Sebastian Tristan Dangerfield (that weren't so hard) but I must remind you that I asked first.....and you answered a question with a question. Very naughty. Reveal yourself, as I just did.

As in the J.P. Donleavy character?

You have me at a disadvantage. Who is the J.P. Donleavy character?

[whybother]

@ Maha Sarakham Marty:

What evidence would you like to see?

All of it. Any of it, even. Anyone can spout words. SHow us the money.

Lots of factual reports, as opposed to "gossip and hearsay", out there about Kornthep.

Provide the links, at least, if you can't be bothered or are unable to support your assertions otherwise.

Who are you, SebD?

I'm Sebastian Tristan Dangerfield (that weren't so hard) but I must remind you that I asked first.....and you answered a question with a question. Very naughty. Reveal yourself, as I just did.

Of the Edinburgh music scene?

[Bluespunk]

@ Maha Sarakham Marty:

What evidence would you like to see?

All of it. Any of it, even. Anyone can spout words. SHow us the money.

Lots of factual reports, as opposed to "gossip and hearsay", out there about Kornthep.

Provide the links, at least, if you can't be bothered or are unable to support your assertions otherwise.

Who are you, SebD?

I'm Sebastian Tristan Dangerfield (that weren't so hard) but I must remind you that I asked first.....and you answered a question with a question. Very naughty. Reveal yourself, as I just did.

As in the J.P. Donleavy character?

You have me at a disadvantage. Who is the J.P. Donleavy character?

Sebastian dangerfield is a character in "The Ginger Man". Should look him up.

[Maha Sarakham Marty]

@ Maha Sarakham Marty:

What evidence would you like to see?

All of it. Any of it, even.

Lots of factual reports, as opposed to "gossip and hearsay", out there about Kornthep.

Provide the links, at least.

www.google.com

Search of:

Thaksin Kornthep

Reveals 230 links. Hope that gives you a good start to learning about the Thaksin years.

Edited December 22, 2013 by Maha Sarakham Marty

[captspectre]

Then why does that lot call themselves DEMOCRATS?

the same thing happened in the U.S. election when the head cockroach was elected! the stupid people sat out the election because they did not "like" the ohter canidate! now they are paying for it!

[brit1984]

^^ it doesn't matter who you (or anyone else) believe started it - personally i blame the big bang

what matters is how to stop the chaos and achieve peace (and political stability)

a coup of the democratically elected (but corrupt) government by an unelected (and just as corrupt) lunatic will not bring peace - quite the opposite in fact

Why do you describe him as a lunatic? He is certainly good at getting alot of people out to protest. I would not describe him as insane though.

Regarding his corruptness; yes he was involved in some corruption before, but i dont see Suthep and his family dominating the Democrat party. He just one of a number of MPs (or should i say was).

If PT win the next election, then nothing has changed and we still have a Taksin run country. Do you think that is the way forward? We would see more checks and balances removed, the press muzzled (like before when Taksin was threatening them), no working opposition in government, no one opposing the Shinawatras (either bought or intimidated ). It would be worse that what we have experienced so far.

Taksin was the only politician who did not step down when he was rumbled for corruption. There is an understanding in Thai politics that when you have had your fill at the trough of corruption and been rumbled, you step down and someone else moves in. Taksin refused to follow this and would not relinquish power.

suthep is a lunatic - as is anyone who follows him, excluding those who just want to party and eat free food (which admittedly might be most of them)

forcing out the democratically elected government (1 year before an election is due) and showing complete disregard for the electorate by refusing to even participate in the democratic process, with no care for the inevitable riots (and deaths) that will follow when the red-shirt fanatics (spurred on by anger created by suthep's actions and rhetoric) come to fight for democracy.... this is lunacy

i agree suthep does not hold all the power in the democrat party but you must be in a parallel universe if you think the others are not corrupt (and have not been "rumbled")

as i see it korn and abhisit are just about the only well-educated, intelligent, reasonable AND clean senior members (on either side), and the sooner they stand up and bring the opposition (and thai politics in general) into the 21st century the better