Thai Democrats resolve to boycott February 2 election

[captspectre]

@ Maha Sarakham Marty:

What evidence would you like to see?

All of it. Any of it, even. Anyone can spout words. SHow us the money.

Lots of factual reports, as opposed to "gossip and hearsay", out there about Kornthep.

Provide the links, at least, if you can't be bothered or are unable to support your assertions otherwise.

Who are you, SebD?

I'm Sebastian Tristan Dangerfield (that weren't so hard) but I must remind you that I asked first.....and you answered a question with a question. Very naughty. Reveal yourself, as I just did.

Of the Edinburgh music scene?

what are you talking about?

[nputman]

Well good, that will mean at least a 45% gain in the effort to end corruption.

[whybother]

@ Maha Sarakham Marty:

What evidence would you like to see?

All of it. Any of it, even. Anyone can spout words. SHow us the money.

Lots of factual reports, as opposed to "gossip and hearsay", out there about Kornthep.

Provide the links, at least, if you can't be bothered or are unable to support your assertions otherwise.

Who are you, SebD?

I'm Sebastian Tristan Dangerfield (that weren't so hard) but I must remind you that I asked first.....and you answered a question with a question. Very naughty. Reveal yourself, as I just did.

Of the Edinburgh music scene?

what are you talking about?

Sebastian Dangerfield is a band from Edinburgh.

[SebD]

@ Maha Sarakham Marty:

What evidence would you like to see?

All of it. Any of it, even. Anyone can spout words. SHow us the money.

Lots of factual reports, as opposed to "gossip and hearsay", out there about Kornthep.

Provide the links, at least, if you can't be bothered or are unable to support your assertions otherwise.

Who are you, SebD?

I'm Sebastian Tristan Dangerfield (that weren't so hard) but I must remind you that I asked first.....and you answered a question with a question. Very naughty. Reveal yourself, as I just did.

Of the Edinburgh music scene?

No. I'm not musical at all. Tried playing the guitar once and can hold a tune, vocally, but that's about it.

One of my sons, on the other hand, is in two bands and sings, plays guitar (lead, rythm and base), drums (his major love), piano and keyboard, harmonica, ukelele (I think I spelled that right) and even squeezebox.

He must get it from his mother's side (she can play any tune on the piano, by ear, as soon as she hears it).

[SebD]

@ Maha Sarakham Marty:

What evidence would you like to see?

All of it. Any of it, even.

Lots of factual reports, as opposed to "gossip and hearsay", out there about Kornthep.

Provide the links, at least.

www.google.com

Search of:

Thaksin Kornthep

Reveals 230 links. Hope that gives you a good start to learning about the Thaksin years.

Yeah, I'll do that and apologise if you're PROVED correct (don't hold your breath).

[applez]

The country probably needs to go into a civil war to sort this out. It will kinda be like a reset button that will help change the status quo and the Thai mentality.

[SebD]

@ Maha Sarakham Marty:

What evidence would you like to see?

All of it. Any of it, even. Anyone can spout words. SHow us the money.

Lots of factual reports, as opposed to "gossip and hearsay", out there about Kornthep.

Provide the links, at least, if you can't be bothered or are unable to support your assertions otherwise.

Who are you, SebD?

I'm Sebastian Tristan Dangerfield (that weren't so hard) but I must remind you that I asked first.....and you answered a question with a question. Very naughty. Reveal yourself, as I just did.

As in the J.P. Donleavy character?

You have me at a disadvantage. Who is the J.P. Donleavy character?

Sebastian dangerfield is a character in "The Ginger Man". Should look him up.

I will, thanks.

I thought with a name like mine I was bloody well unique.

I do (did) have an Irish father and (having Googled it) see the book is based on an Irish character.

Always did wonder why I wasn't called Patrick or some-such.

So I was named after someone, it would appear.

I should say thanks (but I'm not sure I'm thankful) for the revelation.

Nevermind, I'll live with it.

Could be worse I suppose. I might be called Oliver Reed and I really don't think I could live up to that legend

[brit1984]

The country probably needs to go into a civil war to sort this out. It will kinda be like a reset button that will help change the status quo and the Thai mentality.

wow, just wow... i really hope you are posting from the confines of a secure mental institution... maybe a nuclear world war and total apocalypse would be better... just in case some thais are on holiday during the civil war

[ggold]

Abhisit and the moderates lose out to the insanity that is Suthep and his backers.

As the political crisis continues to escalate its becoming obvious that Suthep will not stop until there is blood on the streets of Bangkok. There is no way the government is going to give him what he wants, the only way he can get anything like his desired unelected council is if the military conducts another coup. And the only way a coup will happen is to defuse violence street clashes that lead to bloodshed, which would give them a mandate to intervene on behalf of the Thai people.

That being said however this will be the end of the democrats as a threat to the PTP in anything resembling a "one man, one vote" election. They are plunging the country into turmoil just to spite Thaksin and his supporters.

I am no bigger fan of Thaksin than I am of Suthep and as far as I'm concerned they should find a nice quiet place in the desert outside Dubai to have it out, instead of it playing out across the streets of this country and costing the lives of innocent Thai's.

Actually IMO you are wrong! For the democrats to stand in the next election mearly gives legitimacy to PTP's ulawful,corrupt ways! It really has nothing to do with winning or losing the election. Why give legitimacy to a party that will ruin the country fiancially and politically, Because the reality is until there is a reform of Democracy there will not be Democracy and things will just continue in a circle.

To say it is the end of the political threat to PTP is just plain wrong. The Democrats aren't dissbanding as a party, so they will still be a thorn in the side of PTP. Finally PTP will find it hard to have an ellection and claim the majority of votes, to form a Government, as there is no oposition. This may actually force them to cancel the election?

"..the reality is until there is a reform of Democracy...

I'm trying to figure out what that reform might be.

Thailand's current system of Democracy hinges on the one-person-one-vote method.

Your alternative is?

There's always one trying to be a smart ass! the democratic system or the way it performs here needs reform or don't you see that?

[myluckythai]

The general hate rally cry against Thaksin reminds me of another in history - Hitler and his rally for the country to hate the Jews. Point to a scapegoat for all the country's problems and create a mob. Hate is the heart of a mob's mentality. Truly sad.

I still can't find any solid evidence of what Thaksin did wrong. Can anyone tell me?

I would commend you to invest in an education. The first step for you would be to learn how to search on the internet.

Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia.

"...He was convicted by the Supreme Court's Criminal Division for Holders of Political Positions of abusing his power to help his wife buy public land at an auction, and was sentenced to two years in jail. Various criminal charges await him if he returns to Thailand..."

He also evaded tax by fraudulent share transactions for the sale of Shincorp to another bunch of politicians in Singapore.

How did he help his wife buy public land at an auction?

Did he hold the gavel?

there are actually several ways to rig an auction. a land auction wil lnot have many everyday men coming and so it will be mostly known parties to bid.

As it is many people with big power and money , one can easliy grasp how these things can go.

1.they mighthave promised other parties that is not in their personal gain if they overbid,or otherwise maybe not in the interest of future business deals to overbid this one

2 the exact opposite, they could have made a side deal. It would be in the personal interest by a payoff, or future business interest to not overbid this one. you give me this one and you get something else for it in return which might interest you more than me. and so on..There are even more ways of course

[62strat]

At this point quick fix reforms will hardly change the electoral reality.Anything Sutep might win with powerful allies will be swept away whenever voting is allowed to resume.For most people the sides are set and no new party or third option can challedge the powers that be (at least for now) . If he has done anything at all it might be to harden the negative feelings on both sides of the polictcal divide.

Sutep will lose this battle, even if everything he wants is handed to him. His stlye of personal attacks,bluster and bullying will not be respected or accepted outside of his most loyal followers that only seem united in their hate or fear of Taksin.

[Toscano]

As I see it this could be the end of the Democratic Party . They either stood to lose the election , or in this case to cease to exist . In 2006 there were found to be TRT faults to justify cancelling the election result because the Democrats boycotted it . This time , I'm not so sure there are grounds to support a party that just says , " We can't Win , so we aren't going to play ". Perhaps other parties can fill the void ? One can also assume that DP politicians are supporting Sutheps campaign for a Peoples Council . The danger lies in that the majority of voters will not accept an appointed government . Of course Suthep wants to provoke a military intervention , but if it happened , I'm not sure what form it would take .

Probably not the same as last time , Tanks in Bangkok would hardly serve to quell the uprising in the north and northeast . There is no way out of this impasse , if I were the general commanding the army , I would order the general election to go ahead , police the polling stations , ensure that an election result was achieved , take necessary steps to insure that a government was formed and not interfered with . Thailand is a developing country with imperfections like endemic corruption , that are not going to be stamped out in a month , a year or a generation . A Peoples Council will merely confine those enjoying the ( Corrupt ) pickings to a priviledged few who are deemed to be above the law .

Thailand needs a government to encourage trade , make the country prosperous , internal discontent is of lesser importance . As I read , the Democrat Party lost power in 1992 because of Suthep's corruption , so why should he be resurected " Whiter than White " to stamp out the evils of Thailand . Thaksin had his faults , perhaps too harsh in the south , questionable re drug dealers killed , feathered his own nest , why else do Thais become politicians . Thaksin was very good at foreign relations , encourage foreign trade and investement . I believe that Thailand prospered under Thaksin rule and that is more important than all the internal squables and disagreements as now .

[Toscano]

62strat

An Excellent post , brief and to the point !!!

[Netizen]

The general hate rally cry against Thaksin reminds me of another in history - Hitler and his rally for the country to hate the Jews. Point to a scapegoat for all the country's problems and create a mob. Hate is the heart of a mob's mentality. Truly sad.

I still can't find any solid evidence of what Thaksin did wrong. Can anyone tell me?

I would commend you to invest in an education. The first step for you would be to learn how to search on the internet.

Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia.

"...He was convicted by the Supreme Court's Criminal Division for Holders of Political Positions of abusing his power to help his wife buy public land at an auction, and was sentenced to two years in jail. Various criminal charges await him if he returns to Thailand..."

He also evaded tax by fraudulent share transactions for the sale of Shincorp to another bunch of politicians in Singapore.

How did he help his wife buy public land at an auction?

Did he hold the gavel?

there are actually several ways to rig an auction. a land auction wil lnot have many everyday men coming and so it will be mostly known parties to bid.

As it is many people with big power and money , one can easliy grasp how these things can go.

1.they mighthave promised other parties that is not in their personal gain if they overbid,or otherwise maybe not in the interest of future business deals to overbid this one

2 the exact opposite, they could have made a side deal. It would be in the personal interest by a payoff, or future business interest to not overbid this one. you give me this one and you get something else for it in return which might interest you more than me. and so on..There are even more ways of course

All that dukebowling does is pout. Nothing of substances emerges from it's North end.

You are all missing the point about the land transaction. It is generally accepted principle of corruption avoidance in honest democratic societies that political leaders and their family and people acting for them should not enter into contracts with the government.

The judges of the Supreme court found Thaksin guilty and he had no grounds for appeal. Thaksin is a convicted criminal. Even his cronies cannot overturn that conviction.

For gods sake! " illegally concealing billions of baht of his wealth by transferring ownership of Shin Corp. shares to his drivers and maids, without their knowledge". Youve got to be kidding that transferring billions of baht of shares to chauffer and maid without their knowledge was an "honest" "mistake". This only happens in fantasy land.

In the regard to the share transactions, why did Thaksin engage in such an elaborate scam if all his actions were legal without the benefit of the scam; and without the benefit of Thaksin's secret tax haven corporations?

I rest my case. See below from Wikipedia:

"...Thaksin was charged with illegally concealing billions of baht of his wealth by transferring ownership of Shin Corp. shares to his drivers and maids, without their knowledge. Thaksin tearfully told the Constitutional Court that it was an honest mistake before the Court acquitted him on the charges..."

Edited December 22, 2013 by Netizen

[Toscano]

Myluckythai

The land that Thaksin's wife purchase had already failed to sell , I believe at an open auction . The land was subsequently offered for sale by secret

tender , whereby intersted individuals may write in making an offer for the property . It is unlikely that in such circumstances that there would be any

collusion to keep the price low , followed by a subsequent share out . Mrs Shinawatra paid just short of the original asking price , so could not be said

to have bought a bargain . There is a law in Thailand that husbands have to confirm the wife's purchase . Thaksin did this , but in his position of

Prime Minister , he broke a law that prohibits government ministers from confirming the purchase . In other countries wives can buy what they like if they have the money . In this case the law has been abused from both sides . When Suthep talks about reform , it will not have the least effect unless it

covers in depth every aspect and department including the judiciary . If Thais wanted to send Thaksin to prison , this was not the right case to do it on .

[Netizen]

Myluckythai

The land that Thaksin's wife purchase had already failed to sell , I believe at an open auction . The land was subsequently offered for sale by secret

tender , whereby intersted individuals may write in making an offer for the property . It is unlikely that in such circumstances that there would be any

collusion to keep the price low , followed by a subsequent share out . Mrs Shinawatra paid just short of the original asking price , so could not be said

to have bought a bargain . There is a law in Thailand that husbands have to confirm the wife's purchase . Thaksin did this , but in his position of

Prime Minister , he broke a law that prohibits government ministers from confirming the purchase . In other countries wives can buy what they like if they have the money . In this case the law has been abused from both sides . When Suthep talks about reform , it will not have the least effect unless it

covers in depth every aspect and department including the judiciary . If Thais wanted to send Thaksin to prison , this was not the right case to do it on .

I don't agree that "In other countries wives can buy what they like if they have the money".

Thaksin's wife probably got a nod and a wink and bid information from some government official. But again it's the principle of avoidance of the appearance of corruption that is at issue here.

The general principle in honest democratic society is that family, associates and parties acting on behalf of the leaders of governments are constrained from contracting with the government. Otherwise corruption or the presumption of corruption could prevail.

There is also the principle that land that Thaksin desired miraculously and suddenly became available at the whim of some mysterious government official who decided it should be liberated from public ownership.

Remember that Al Capone was imprisoned for tax evasion when he was actually guilty of more heinous crimes; countless murders. While on that subject, Thaksin also had the deaths of many people on his hands including the missing muslim lawyer.

Edited December 22, 2013 by Netizen

[Time Traveller]

Then why does that lot call themselves DEMOCRATS?

Democrat was a typo. They meant to call themselves the Demo-rats,

Edited December 22, 2013 by Time Traveller

[Ricardo]

suthep is a lunatic - as is anyone who follows him, excluding those who just want to party and eat free food (which admittedly might be most of them)

forcing out the democratically elected government (1 year before an election is due) and showing complete disregard for the electorate by refusing to even participate in the democratic process, with no care for the inevitable riots (and deaths) that will follow when the red-shirt fanatics (spurred on by anger created by suthep's actions and rhetoric) come to fight for democracy.... this is lunacy

i agree suthep does not hold all the power in the democrat party but you must be in a parallel universe if you think the others are not corrupt (and have not been "rumbled")

as i see it korn and abhisit are just about the only well-educated, intelligent, reasonable AND clean senior members (on either side), and the sooner they stand up and bring the opposition (and thai politics in general) into the 21st century the better

"1 year before an election is due"

Just to point out that the PTP-led coalition-government still had 19 months to run, before an election would have been due in July-2015, not "1 year".

On your last point, I'd agree that Korn & Abhisit are relatively clean, and ought now perhaps to consider forming a new cleaner political party, ditto all those genuine for-the-poor Red-Shirts/UDD who aren't taking the Thaksin-shilling, the sooner the political-dinosaurs exit the stage the better, preferably taking Thaksin & Suthep with them.

But it won't happen.

[CMBob]

So then you might as well live on the Mars. The current government just deliberately lost 12 billion USD just to stay popular in the rural Thailand and you talk about the reality. They blew massive hole in Thai economy which is already causing all sorts of problems. But hey, let's talk about your anonymous friends and what they say.

First, you do show your bias a bit by using the word "deliberately", don't you? I'm not sure how much they have lost or will lose on the rice scheme (presuming that's what you're talking about) but when was any government program anywhere designed to make money? Every government that I've ever known everywhere (not just Thailand) starts programs that benefit its supporters - that's rather normal in the world.

You almost sound like the Republicans in the US who constantly rail against every social program designed to help the poor. Given that in both the west and in Thailand for the last 30+ years the poor have been getting poorer and the rich have been getting richer, I don't see anything wrong with more programs that "lose" money to those less fortunate. The rich will still get the lion's share in any event.

[Bluespunk]

Then why does that lot call themselves DEMOCRATS?

Democrat was a typo. They meant to call themselves the Demo-rats,

You know, I don't think they did.

[dukebowling]

The general hate rally cry against Thaksin reminds me of another in history - Hitler and his rally for the country to hate the Jews. Point to a scapegoat for all the country's problems and create a mob. Hate is the heart of a mob's mentality. Truly sad.

I still can't find any solid evidence of what Thaksin did wrong. Can anyone tell me?

It seems you haven't even bothered looking if you can't find anything.

Great answer.

[dukebowling]

Theoretically, what's so bad about "fascism?" In effect, that is how Singapore is governed. And even in Italy, Mussolini all but broke the power of the mafia--the reason they hated him so much. But forget Mussolini and Italy. Perhaps we need to stop seeing Asian adaptations of alternate political models through Western filters. "Democracy" in Thailand has morphed into the worst version imaginable of Gilded Age politics in America. It is one Western model that is not working here, for sure, filter or no filter. Too many Westerners hold on to "democracy" like some sort of mystery cult from the Roman Empire, a spiritual elixir that holds the solution for everything. I don't really think that's so.

Democracy is not meant to be efficient, it's meant to be fair.

[dukebowling]

All that dukebowling does is pout. Nothing of substances emerges from it's North end.

You are all missing the point about the land transaction. It is generally accepted principle of corruption avoidance in honest democratic societies that political leaders and their family and people acting for them should not enter into contracts with the government.

The judges of the Supreme court found Thaksin guilty and he had no grounds for appeal. Thaksin is a convicted criminal. Even his cronies cannot overturn that conviction.

For gods sake! " illegally concealing billions of baht of his wealth by transferring ownership of Shin Corp. shares to his drivers and maids, without their knowledge". Youve got to be kidding that transferring billions of baht of shares to chauffer and maid without their knowledge was an "honest" "mistake". This only happens in fantasy land.

In the regard to the share transactions, why did Thaksin engage in such an elaborate scam if all his actions were legal without the benefit of the scam; and without the benefit of Thaksin's secret tax haven corporations?

I rest my case. See below from Wikipedia:

"...Thaksin was charged with illegally concealing billions of baht of his wealth by transferring ownership of Shin Corp. shares to his drivers and maids, without their knowledge. Thaksin tearfully told the Constitutional Court that it was an honest mistake before the Court acquitted him on the charges..."

I think I struck a nerve. Are you ok? Relax and don't take the truth so personal. Edited December 22, 2013 by dukebowling

[dukebowling]

Thaksin was convicted without a trial or defense from a government destined to find fault. What was the crime? His wife bought an auctioned property. Did he threaten others not to bid? No exact detail anywhere.

Evading taxes did not exist because there was no tax on capital gains at that time. The tax evasion accusation is just that with no legal ramifications. Also at the time, it was legal for foreign investors to hold 49% of a Thai company. This was passed during his regime but proposed earlier in 2001. Many accusations that this was wrong must not be confused with the legality.

Again, anyone have anything?

Without a trial? Do you seriously believe that?

Prior to January 2006, foreign ownership of telecommunications companies in Thailand was limited to 25%. Thaksin changed that to 49% so that he could sell his company to the Singaporeans.

If that isn't conflict of interest, I don't know what is.

The proposal to have owners own up to 49% of telecommunications company was proposed in 2001 - Thaksin just got it passed. It was time for Thailand to step up and stop this us against you idea and think of the country as part of the world. I don't get this selling off Thailand idea. It's just forward thinking typical in most countries. Foreign owners still can't own more than half so what is the big deal?

Any benefit Thaksin received was not illegal. He just then used the law change to conduct a transaction. I would also think that an expert in telecommunications would reform that industry properly and bring in outside money so the industry could boom the way it did. Thailand has cutting edge technology and competition from this now.

Thaksin did benefit from this boom as did all telecommunication companies in same proportion.

[whybother]

The proposal to have owners own up to 49% of telecommunications company was proposed in 2001 - Thaksin just got it passed. It was time for Thailand to step up and stop this us against you idea and think of the country as part of the world. I don't get this selling off Thailand idea. It's just forward thinking typical in most countries. Foreign owners still can't own more than half so what is the big deal?

Any benefit Thaksin received was not illegal. He just then used the law change to conduct a transaction. I would also think that an expert in telecommunications would reform that industry properly and bring in outside money so the industry could boom the way it did. Thailand has cutting edge technology and competition from this now.

Thaksin did benefit from this boom as did all telecommunication companies in same proportion.

There may have been a proposal in 2001, but the current act was actually passed in November 2001 without 49% ownership (and that is when Thaksin was in government).

It's not the issue of selling of national assets, it's the issue of conflict of interest. Thaksin got the law changed which he gained a huge benefit from.

[spectrumisgreen]

Abhisit and the moderates lose out to the insanity that is Suthep and his backers.

As the political crisis continues to escalate its becoming obvious that Suthep will not stop until there is blood on the streets of Bangkok. There is no way the government is going to give him what he wants, the only way he can get anything like his desired unelected council is if the military conducts another coup. And the only way a coup will happen is to defuse violence street clashes that lead to bloodshed, which would give them a mandate to intervene on behalf of the Thai people.

That being said however this will be the end of the democrats as a threat to the PTP in anything resembling a "one man, one vote" election. They are plunging the country into turmoil just to spite Thaksin and his supporters.

I am no bigger fan of Thaksin than I am of Suthep and as far as I'm concerned they should find a nice quiet place in the desert outside Dubai to have it out, instead of it playing out across the streets of this country and costing the lives of innocent Thai's.

Do calm down.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Calm down? Hardly a rant is it? In fact, I think this is the most sensible, considered post I've read on TV about what's really going on...

[jackrich]

Why didn't the Democrats push for reforms when they were in power under Abhisit and Suthep?

[JJttttt1]

Theoretically, what's so bad about "fascism?" In effect, that is how Singapore is governed. And even in Italy, Mussolini all but broke the power of the mafia--the reason they hated him so much. But forget Mussolini and Italy. Perhaps we need to stop seeing Asian adaptations of alternate political models through Western filters. "Democracy" in Thailand has morphed into the worst version imaginable of Gilded Age politics in America. It is one Western model that is not working here, for sure, filter or no filter. Too many Westerners hold on to "democracy" like some sort of mystery cult from the Roman Empire, a spiritual elixir that holds the solution for everything. I don't really think that's so.

Democracy is not meant to be efficient, it's meant to be fair.

So democratic regimes will be sooner or later overruned my less "fair" but more effective regimes.

the choice is equality in poverty or inequality in richness. Soviet Union, China and others gave an answer to this question already but leftist just can't accept the truth which goes against their worldview. So all of these US and West Europe college professors keep manufacturing millions and millions of leftism adepts, who do not bother to review ideas that have been embedded in them.

they just can't accept the truth that people are not equal: everybody has diffident heredity, education, IQ, physical abilities etc. Denying the truth will always lead to a society failure and chaos.

"These are realities that, if you do not accept, will lead to frustration because you will be spending money on wrong assumptions and the results cannot follow."

said Lee Quan Yew, the most ingenious politician of modern world.

All Western World rests on a foundation of false idea.

[whybother]

Why didn't the Democrats push for reforms when they were in power under Abhisit and Suthep?

They did. They even made some changes.

[philw]

Why didn't the Democrats push for reforms when they were in power under Abhisit and Suthep?

Thank you for the obvious question.

'

I guess the answer is it did not suit their purpose at the time...........