Democrats slam door on poll

[whybother]

Even tho I am not a fan. I think YL has handled the whole thing in a very professional manner. I applaud her for her calm approach, if it was the democrats these demonstrations would have been crushed by force, people being shot in the streets and total kaos.

Well done Yingluk and I am sure you have the backing from the vast majority of countries around the world in the way you have conducted yourself. You have been tested and pushed by rebels and responded with calm grace making them look like idiots.

The Democrats let the red shirts protest for 4 weeks. It was only after they had set up shop in Ratchaprasong, stormed parliament and Thaicom with molotov cocktails, along with the numerous grenades going off around town, that the government decided to disperse the protesters. It was only after the red shirts brought out their militia that people started dying.

[fab4]

Even tho I am not a fan. I think YL has handled the whole thing in a very professional manner. I applaud her for her calm approach, if it was the democrats these demonstrations would have been crushed by force, people being shot in the streets and total kaos.

Well done Yingluk and I am sure you have the backing from the vast majority of countries around the world in the way you have conducted yourself. You have been tested and pushed by rebels and responded with calm grace making them look like idiots.

The Democrats let the red shirts protest for 4 weeks. It was only after they had set up shop in Ratchaprasong, stormed parliament and Thaicom with molotov cocktails, along with the numerous grenades going off around town, that the government decided to disperse the protesters. It was only after the red shirts brought out their militia that people started dying.

Point of order. People started dying when abhisit and suthep sent out troops armed with live ammunition and permission to use that ammunition on the protesters despite their blatant lies at the time and for some time after.

The first person to die on April 10th was a UDD supporter at the Kok Wua intersection in the afternoon.

[whybother]

Even tho I am not a fan. I think YL has handled the whole thing in a very professional manner. I applaud her for her calm approach, if it was the democrats these demonstrations would have been crushed by force, people being shot in the streets and total kaos.

Well done Yingluk and I am sure you have the backing from the vast majority of countries around the world in the way you have conducted yourself. You have been tested and pushed by rebels and responded with calm grace making them look like idiots.

The Democrats let the red shirts protest for 4 weeks. It was only after they had set up shop in Ratchaprasong, stormed parliament and Thaicom with molotov cocktails, along with the numerous grenades going off around town, that the government decided to disperse the protesters. It was only after the red shirts brought out their militia that people started dying.

Point of order. People started dying when abhisit and suthep sent out troops armed with live ammunition and permission to use that ammunition on the protesters despite their blatant lies at the time and for some time after.

The first person to die on April 10th was a UDD supporter at the Kok Wua intersection in the afternoon.

And there is no proof how this person was killed.

Would you have suggested that the government sent in the army with riot shields against guns and grenades?

[Roadman]

Even tho I am not a fan. I think YL has handled the whole thing in a very professional manner. I applaud her for her calm approach, if it was the democrats these demonstrations would have been crushed by force, people being shot in the streets and total kaos.

Well done Yingluk and I am sure you have the backing from the vast majority of countries around the world in the way you have conducted yourself. You have been tested and pushed by rebels and responded with calm grace making them look like idiots.

Yes - situations in Thailand tend to rapidly reach critical mass whenever there's an overload of testosterone and hubris.

So a female touch makes a nice change .... although this did not apply to Maggie Thatcher, who probably had more b@lls than all of her cabinet put together ...

Yingluck hasn't handled anything at all.

The army will not shoot Suthep's peaceful protesters.If they did it would be the end of her government for sure.

It took the army 2 or 3 months to react against the red shirts who were firing all kinds of weapons at the authorities.Even then, Anupong insisted Apisit and Suthep had to assume overall command so any blame for deaths would be directed at them, not the army.

Good of you to admit the guilt and complicity of Suthep and AV in the murder of unarmed Thai citizens.

See there you lot go again making up lies and untruths.

The "blame for deaths" equates to "murder". And " the red shirts who were firing all kinds of weapons at the authorities" equates to "unarmed Thai citizens". Built on bull sh!t much the same as thai governance.

[sirineou]

Even tho I am not a fan. I think YL has handled the whole thing in a very professional manner. I applaud her for her calm approach, if it was the democrats these demonstrations would have been crushed by force, people being shot in the streets and total kaos.

Well done Yingluk and I am sure you have the backing from the vast majority of countries around the world in the way you have conducted yourself. You have been tested and pushed by rebels and responded with calm grace making them look like idiots.

The Democrats let the red shirts protest for 4 weeks. It was only after they had set up shop in Ratchaprasong, stormed parliament and Thaicom with molotov cocktails, along with the numerous grenades going off around town, that the government decided to disperse the protesters. It was only after the red shirts brought out their militia that people started dying.

The Red shirts did not bring out the military, the military brought out the red shirts when they staged a military coup and overthrew a democratically elected government, get your history right .

[PeterSmiles]

Even tho I am not a fan. I think YL has handled the whole thing in a very professional manner. I applaud her for her calm approach, if it was the democrats these demonstrations would have been crushed by force, people being shot in the streets and total kaos.

Well done Yingluk and I am sure you have the backing from the vast majority of countries around the world in the way you have conducted yourself. You have been tested and pushed by rebels and responded with calm grace making them look like idiots.

The Democrats let the red shirts protest for 4 weeks. It was only after they had set up shop in Ratchaprasong, stormed parliament and Thaicom with molotov cocktails, along with the numerous grenades going off around town, that the government decided to disperse the protesters. It was only after the red shirts brought out their militia that people started dying.

The Red shirts did not bring out the military, the military brought out the red shirts when they staged a military coup and overthrew a democratically elected government, get your history right .

Get your history right, LOL.

There was no elected government at the time of the coup. There was a self appointed caretaker PM, who refused to write new elections

[whybother]

The Red shirts did not bring out the military, the military brought out the red shirts when they staged a military coup and overthrew a democratically elected government, get your history right .

... I think it is you that should check your Thai history.

1) There was no democratically elected government when the coup occurred in 2006. Thaksin was a care-taker PM after dissolving parliament for elections, which didn't produce a result.

2) The red shirts brought out their own armed militia 3 & 1/2 years after the coup, and 4 weeks after they started their protests in 2010 (after their failed protests in 2009).

[cocopops]

They can have their tainted one sided election.

It won't change the feeling on the streets and will almost certainly make it worse.

Dems may well have sacrificed their best chance of winning, especially with the definite votes lost from red shirts who seem to be turning, especially the ones in the swing areas, thanks to the ludicrous amnesty bill. We even have the rice growers association protesting today. Add to that the fact YL only got 49% of a popularity poll that was conducted in their most dominant provinces (isaan).

So I doubt PTP would have walked this one.

I admire the Dems for their sacrifice, it must not have been an easy decision. But they are all about reform before elections as are the majority of the population. Anyone NOT for this, you really have to question their motives.

You seem to know what you're talking about. Do you know where I can read about what the proposed reforms are? Or what the nature of them will be?

I'm completely at a loss on the issue. Is it a new kind of election system? Or a purge of officials seen to be serving something other than the country?

Or does nobody know and we're just hoping they'll be good?

Edited December 22, 2013 by cocopops

[sirineou]

The Red shirts did not bring out the military, the military brought out the red shirts when they staged a military coup and overthrew a democratically elected government, get your history right .

... I think it is you that should check your Thai history.

1) There was no democratically elected government when the coup occurred in 2006. Thaksin was a care-taker PM after dissolving parliament for elections, which didn't produce a result.

2) The red shirts brought out their own armed militia 3 & 1/2 years after the coup, and 4 weeks after they started their protests in 2010 (after their failed protests in 2009).

-4 Feb 2006 Tens of thousands of protesters gather in Bangkok for the first major demonstration demanding Thaksin’s resignation.

-24 Feb 2006 Amidst growing protests Thaksin dissolves Parliament and calls snap elections for 2 April 2006.

-13 Mar 2006 Protesters march on Government House, Thaksins office, and vow to stay camped out until he resigns. -2 Apr 2006 Elections are boycotted by the opposition. TRT party wins 57 percent of votes but unopposed TRT candidates for 38 seats fail to get the necessary quorum of 20% of eligible votes, preventing parliament from opening. -4 Apr 2006 After an audience with King Bhumibol and under increasing pressure, Thaksin announces that he would not accept the post of Prime Minister after the Parliament reconvenes but that he would continue to be Caretaker Prime Minister until his successor is elected by the Parliament.

-Apr-May 2006 Thaksin takes a seven-week break from politics, but returns as caretaker Prime Minister and struggles to schedule a new election over increasing legal challenges.

-8 May 2006 The Constitution Court invalidates the results of the April elections and calls for new elections.

-30 May 2006 The Cabinet endorses an Election Commission proposal to hold a new round of elections on 15 October 2006.

-24 Aug 2006 Thaksin accuses several army officers of plotting to kill him after police find a car containing bomb-making materials near his house.

-19 Sep 2006 Military launches a coup detat while Thaksin is in New York at the UN General Assembly. Lead by General Sonthi Boonyaratglin, the coup leaders brand themselves the Council for Democratic Reform (CDR), suspend the constitution, and dissolve the Cabinet, both houses of Parliament, and the Constitutional Court. Coup leaders later refer to themselves as the Council for National Security (CNS)

Edited December 22, 2013 by sirineou

[pedro01]

The democrats should run, drop Abhisit and field an intelligent woman for PM.

A woman that would stand up and ask Yingluck for a live on TV debate.

Abhisit is a dead duck candidate now,

[whybother]

The Red shirts did not bring out the military, the military brought out the red shirts when they staged a military coup and overthrew a democratically elected government, get your history right .

... I think it is you that should check your Thai history.

1) There was no democratically elected government when the coup occurred in 2006. Thaksin was a care-taker PM after dissolving parliament for elections, which didn't produce a result.

2) The red shirts brought out their own armed militia 3 & 1/2 years after the coup, and 4 weeks after they started their protests in 2010 (after their failed protests in 2009).

-4 Feb 2006 Tens of thousands of protesters gather in Bangkok for the first major demonstration demanding Thaksin’s resignation.

-24 Feb 2006 Amidst growing protests Thaksin dissolves Parliament and calls snap elections for 2 April 2006.

-13 Mar 2006 Protesters march on Government House, Thaksins office, and vow to stay camped out until he resigns. -2 Apr 2006 Elections are boycotted by the opposition. TRT party wins 57 percent of votes but unopposed TRT candidates for 38 seats fail to get the necessary quorum of 20% of eligible votes, preventing parliament from opening. -4 Apr 2006 After an audience with King Bhumibol and under increasing pressure, Thaksin announces that he would not accept the post of Prime Minister after the Parliament reconvenes but that he would continue to be Caretaker Prime Minister until his successor is elected by the Parliament.

-Apr-May 2006 Thaksin takes a seven-week break from politics, but returns as caretaker Prime Minister and struggles to schedule a new election over increasing legal challenges.

-8 May 2006 The Constitution Court invalidates the results of the April elections and calls for new elections.

-30 May 2006 The Cabinet endorses an Election Commission proposal to hold a new round of elections on 15 October 2006.

-24 Aug 2006 Thaksin accuses several army officers of plotting to kill him after police find a car containing bomb-making materials near his house.

-19 Sep 2006 Military launches a coup detat while Thaksin is in New York at the UN General Assembly. Lead by General Sonthi Boonyaratglin, the coup leaders brand themselves the Council for Democratic Reform (CDR), suspend the constitution, and dissolve the Cabinet, both houses of Parliament, and the Constitutional Court. Coup leaders later refer to themselves as the Council for National Security (CNS)

Thank you for confirming that there was no elected government when the coup occurred.

[jackrich]

It makes perfect sense for Democrats to not join the election.

It is after all a matter for grown-ups, not kids.

[jackrich]

19 Sep 2006 Military launches a coup detat while Thaksin is in New York at the UN General Assembly. Lead by General Sonthi Boonyaratglin, the coup leaders brand themselves the Council for Democratic Reform (CDR), suspend the constitution, and dissolve the Cabinet, both houses of Parliament, and the Constitutional Court. Coup leaders later refer to themselves as the Council for National Security (CNS)

So, it's been over 7 years since the Democrats came to power under the "Council for Democratic Reform".

Why didn't they push through those reforms in over 7 years?

Why are they only pushing for it when they're not in power but when they come to power, they do nothing?

They've used the "Reform" excuse 7 years ago and have done nothing. They use it again now and again will do nothing.

It's just an excuse for a power grab, nothing else.

[whybother]

19 Sep 2006 Military launches a coup detat while Thaksin is in New York at the UN General Assembly. Lead by General Sonthi Boonyaratglin, the coup leaders brand themselves the Council for Democratic Reform (CDR), suspend the constitution, and dissolve the Cabinet, both houses of Parliament, and the Constitutional Court. Coup leaders later refer to themselves as the Council for National Security (CNS)

So, it's been over 7 years since the Democrats came to power under the "Council for Democratic Reform".

Why didn't they push through those reforms in over 7 years?

Why are they only pushing for it when they're not in power but when they come to power, they do nothing?

They've used the "Reform" excuse 7 years ago and have done nothing. They use it again now and again will do nothing.

It's just an excuse for a power grab, nothing else.

You've completely lost it. (Actually, I don't think you ever had it to lose.)

The Democrats weren't in power 7 years ago.

[jackrich]

19 Sep 2006 Military launches a coup detat while Thaksin is in New York at the UN General Assembly. Lead by General Sonthi Boonyaratglin, the coup leaders brand themselves the Council for Democratic Reform (CDR), suspend the constitution, and dissolve the Cabinet, both houses of Parliament, and the Constitutional Court. Coup leaders later refer to themselves as the Council for National Security (CNS)

So, it's been over 7 years since the Democrats came to power under the "Council for Democratic Reform".

Why didn't they push through those reforms in over 7 years?

Why are they only pushing for it when they're not in power but when they come to power, they do nothing?

They've used the "Reform" excuse 7 years ago and have done nothing. They use it again now and again will do nothing.

It's just an excuse for a power grab, nothing else.

You've completely lost it. (Actually, I don't think you ever had it to lose.)

The Democrats weren't in power 7 years ago.

I'm curious, why do you find it necessary to insult me?

You're right, they were not in power 7 years ago, they were brought to power 7 years ago thanks to the coup. Thanks for fixing that little detail for me, but ignoring the fact that they didn't push for any reforms while in office and did absolutely nothing.

[whybother]

19 Sep 2006 Military launches a coup detat while Thaksin is in New York at the UN General Assembly. Lead by General Sonthi Boonyaratglin, the coup leaders brand themselves the Council for Democratic Reform (CDR), suspend the constitution, and dissolve the Cabinet, both houses of Parliament, and the Constitutional Court. Coup leaders later refer to themselves as the Council for National Security (CNS)

So, it's been over 7 years since the Democrats came to power under the "Council for Democratic Reform".

Why didn't they push through those reforms in over 7 years?

Why are they only pushing for it when they're not in power but when they come to power, they do nothing?

They've used the "Reform" excuse 7 years ago and have done nothing. They use it again now and again will do nothing.

It's just an excuse for a power grab, nothing else.

You've completely lost it. (Actually, I don't think you ever had it to lose.)

The Democrats weren't in power 7 years ago.

I'm curious, why do you find it necessary to insult me?

You're right, they were not in power 7 years ago, they were brought to power 7 years ago thanks to the coup. Thanks for fixing that little detail for me, but ignoring the fact that they didn't push for any reforms while in office and did absolutely nothing.

No. They weren't in power 7 years ago. They were in power at the end of 2008, which is 5 years ago.

The military junta was in power in 2006, followed by Surayud who was appointed, then Samak in 2007, Somchai in 2008, and Abhisit at the end of 2008.

You really need to do some research. There are so many things that you get wrong.

Sent from my phone ...

[sirineou]

Thank you for confirming that there was no elected government when the coup occurred.

You don't get it, do you

He was caretaker minister not because of his good looks but because he was democratically elected, forced to resign, and through the provisions set in the constitution was appointed caretaker pending elections that his party might had won again. The outcome of which we never enjoyed do to his illegal undemocratic removal and suspension of the democratic process,by a military coup.

How such behavior can be supported by people who comes from countries with a long democratic tradition is beyond me, Which brings me to my original point ,

people can be easily manipulated, a democratic system can only thrive only in a system of strong independent institutions that provide a system of check an balances and can buffer the volatility of the human element.

iMO Thailand does not have this institutions,and is not ready for democracy.

No. They weren't in power 7 years ago.They were in power at the end of 2008, which is 5 years ago. ( the democrats)

Ok his name was not Jim it was Jimmy

So why did they not implement these reforms then

Edited December 22, 2013 by sirineou

[jackrich]

Okay, so the Democrats were in power for 3 years and pushed through absolutely no reforms. What makes you think that they can achieve it, or are even willing to achieve it, in 18 months now?

You can twist the numbers but you can't twist the fact that they did absolutely nothing while in power to bring about any kind of reform.

It's been 7 years since the military overthrew an elected government and established a "Council for Reform", yet in these 7 years, of which 3 of them were under absolute Democrat party majority in parliament, the Democrat party has made absolutely no reforms.

Edited December 22, 2013 by jackrich

[retsdon]

Suthep and the body politic of established power - whose face the Democrat party is - are using the same game plan as last time. And it'll work in the short term because it's not that difficult to make a country ungovernable when the forces of law and order connive in the business. But it might be that this time around the people who are being disenfranchised by this nonsense won't wait five years before organizing a fight-back. For better or worse the genie of democracy is out of the bottle now, and the people of the provinces won't be so easily cowed. So the only way to effectively quell democratic aspirations and demands would be through massive repression. For Thailand, nothing looks good in the near future. It seems to be a choice between a massive fight or a regime of door knocks in the night and disappearances.

So why didn't the Democrats just wait for elections and take on the PTP politically? They have the funding and influence to have organized a massive campaign and with the government mis-spending, the rice subsidy debacle, etc, etc, the PTP was handing them ammunition hand over fist. They would have had their best chance of winning an election in 20 years. The only conclusion to be drawn is that the Democrats and the people behind them have no real interest in democracy except as window dressing for control by a ruling oligarchy, and now that they see an opportunity to do away with universal franchise altogether, they're grabbing it with both hands. Which, despite the claims of representing 'educated' people, puts them very far away indeed from the philosophical and moral principles which I was educated in.

[blaze]

Suthep and the body politic of established power - whose face the Democrat party is - are using the same game plan as last time. And it'll work in the short term because it's not that difficult to make a country ungovernable when the forces of law and order connive in the business. But it might be that this time around the people who are being disenfranchised by this nonsense won't wait five years before organizing a fight-back. For better or worse the genie of democracy is out of the bottle now, and the people of the provinces won't be so easily cowed. So the only way to effectively quell democratic aspirations and demands would be through massive repression. For Thailand, nothing looks good in the near future. It seems to be a choice between a massive fight or a regime of door knocks in the night and disappearances.

So why didn't the Democrats just wait for elections and take on the PTP politically? They have the funding and influence to have organized a massive campaign and with the government mis-spending, the rice subsidy debacle, etc, etc, the PTP was handing them ammunition hand over fist. They would have had their best chance of winning an election in 20 years. The only conclusion to be drawn is that the Democrats and the people behind them have no real interest in democracy except as window dressing for control by a ruling oligarchy, and now that they see an opportunity to do away with universal franchise altogether, they're grabbing it with both hands. Which, despite the claims of representing 'educated' people, puts them very far away indeed from the philosophical and moral principles which I was educated in.

Excellent reading of the situation. Perhaps the best that has shown up in the last few weeks.

Recommend this post to all regardless of sympathy.

I'm sure the poster would welcome reasoned debate.- but at least give it a read.

Edited December 22, 2013 by blaze

[Smokemachine]

Anyone saw today BangkokPost news?

It reported Jatuporn warned the millitary not to stage a coup as promised earlier.

"Maybe they think they can defeat the Thaksin regime by not competing in the election," he added.

Finally he admitted it's all about the Thaksin regime=TS dictatorship.

[blaze]

Perhaps you have never lived in a dicatorship.

Had you, you might have noticed that protesters are shot on sight-- that the government not only doesn't call elections in a month- but doesn't call them ever.

You would know that in a dictatorship anyone (like you) who disagrees with the gov't risks the knock on the door.

And rubber bullets, tear gas are for pussies.

This is no dictatorship.

but wait....

[retsdon]

Anyone saw today BangkokPost news?

It reported Jatuporn warned the millitary not to stage a coup as promised earlier.

"Maybe they think they can defeat the Thaksin regime by not competing in the election," he added.

Finally he admitted it's all about the Thaksin regime=TS dictatorship.

Jatuporn was speaking English?

[Jay Sata]

If I was running the Democrats I'd want to step back and let Yingluck, Thaksin and their friends pick up the wreckage from their failed policies.

No money to pay the farmers for the rice that can't be sold and I suspect no funds to pay the red shirts.

The good news is the baht is heading back to 70 as the birds come home to roost.

Thailand will end up as a basket case like Greece and Spain when the tourist money heads to unspoilt Burma with its huge Andaman coastline.

[sirineou]

If I was running the Democrats I'd want to step back and let Yingluck, Thaksin and their friends pick up the wreckage from their failed policies.

No money to pay the farmers for the rice that can't be sold and I suspect no funds to pay the red shirts.

The good news is the baht is heading back to 70 as the birds come home to roost.

Thailand will end up as a basket case like Greece and Spain when the tourist money heads to unspoilt Burma with its huge Andaman coastline.

That is the democratic way,

You win a term, are given an opportunity to govern and at the end of this therm ,based on the merits of your performance you are either re-elected or cast in the dust bin of history .Unfortunately the so called democrats fear a different future and are attempting to change it by force.

[Smokemachine]

Anyone saw today BangkokPost news?

It reported Jatuporn warned the millitary not to stage a coup as promised earlier.

"Maybe they think they can defeat the Thaksin regime by not competing in the election," he added.

Finally he admitted it's all about the Thaksin regime=TS dictatorship.

Jatuporn was speaking English?

Are you seriously asking me this question?

Ans: No.

-_-''

[blaze]

Then 'regime' is perhaps a loose translation of his exact words?

[Jay Sata]

But Thaksin has used the old Chinese Thai route to get to a point where he owns and runs Thailand.

In every part of Thailand you'll find the business sector is run by old Chinese Thai families.

Walk down a street anywhere in Thailand and look above the door or business plate and see the Chinese script.

If you want to see where a Chinese owned business is look above the door in Chinese New Year and see the lanterns

The same applies to all parts of the local and national government.

In English terms we'd call it the 'Old Boys Network'.

The farmers of Issan are just pawns in a political game.

Thailand is a big façade with nothing behind it. No great mineral wealth or manufacturing that can not be moved to a cheaper labour source such as Burma where cheap labour is already imported via the black market.

Thai's brag about never being invaded but just like WW2 with the Japanese Thailand has been invaded for over a 100 years by Chinese traders who will move on when the proverbial hits the fan.

As for the tourist trade well Burma has more unspoilt beaches and cleaner seas than Thailand and lots of temples.

Edited December 22, 2013 by Jay Sata

[moradave]

I would like to hear people's views on Abhisit's quote, "the democratic process has been distorted."

What does that mean to people?

well it clearly means "we will lose - so we won't take part - so there!" and that's all it means as if they thought they could/would win their constant whining would miraculously cease

Yet, they took part in the 2007 and 2011 elections when they didn't have much chance. Try again.

Yes, we screwed up in those elections, so let's don't make that mistake again.

[Jay Sata]

Put it another way..they did not pay enough bribes.