Who is more corrupt?

[kikoman]

Kikoman, after Thaksin started to buy MPs he lost my support. When he first formed the Thai Rak Thai Party I supported him. I was under the false impression that because he was already so rich he wouldn't be corrupt. I am still against him, but there is no way I can support the Democratic Party who are acting like a bunch of children and as far as Suthep goes he is just a joke, but the only person who is anti Thaksin right now, so the Bangkok middle class are following him. One thing I think your daughter got wrong, although it is hardly her fault, because it Is the misinformation the Red Shirts are spreading, but the Democratic Party support the ฿30 medical plan and at no time have said they would cancel it. Sent from my i-mobile IQ X using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I never backed Thaksin, I always thought he was using the Thai people to further his own political career, that the billions of baht he should have paid in taxes would have gone a long way in helping the less advantaged of the Thai population.

The one thing I credit him for was that he was the one that helped the less affluent folks in Thailand by addressing their basic human needs as equal citizens of Thailand, that no other politician recognized before in this country. He gave them a piece of the Thai pie, which the rich objected too, as to costly a program.

The long line of his relatives that where placed into important political offices, his brother-in-law and his sister were PMs, that Yingluck tried to push the amnesty bill, so that Thaksin can come home without servings his 2 years in prison.

Then the Democratic party members supposedly left the party to lead the demonstration against Yingluck because of her backing the amnesty bill, all well and good, then they started taking over state property and calling for reform in government.

Then they came out backing a "non-elected" peoples government, and vowed to topple the elected government and a series of act aimed at ending the rule of democracy in Thailand, that is when I started to question why would I support the rich over the village people that I personally know and love.

I saw my daughters support for Yinglucks government and our family meeting, In last weeks Bangkok post. Suthep was quoted as specifically targeting populous programs that must be dealt with, Again last week in the Bangkok post was what they expect to happen between now and the next election in about 18 months, that no populous programs could be legislated.

I do not care what your explanation of what the Democratic party embraces, That party must state publicly that they back the programs in question, that any elected government will honor the 30 baht medical plan, period! Till they do that I will only consider my complete backing of my family allegiance to the present government based on the democratic principles of "Majority Rule" and advise them to address the actions of the amnesty bill, that no person convicted by a Thai court can receive amnesty.

When I look at the political motive behind the demonstrators to grab political power, without an election, I fully back the Democratic process for Thailand.

Yingluck politic looks better every day! As I do not have any say in what happens in Thailand, I do not have the right to vote or become involved, I can only support my families decision to back the Democratic process in Thailand!

cheers

Edited December 22, 2013 by kikoman

[txp158]

"Democracy is all about the majority rules, Being against a free election, is a dictatorship!"

Democracy is a system that ensures the government is responsible to both the public and individual alike. Majority rule is the way of choosing. They are not the same thing. That's why a democratic constitution has two parts. The first one being its domain which is about what the public collectively can or can't vote for. For instance, can the public vote to remove all of your belongings and wealth despite the fact that you've done nothing wrong? The second part is the method of which the decision will be made. You've spoken well about the second part of democratic constitution but completely disregard the most of important aspect of a democratic government. When the majority can do just about anything by disregarding good moral and judgement and simply because they claim they are elected, is it so much different from dictatorship? In this regard, you simply change from a single into group-based dictator.

If democracy is identical to election, then the term democracy is no longer needed. Why don't you just call it an election based government?

[Kudel]

I have been coming to Thailand for 28 years and following the politics for that long. In the early days before internet I would drive 45kms every week to get a copy of the Saturday Bangkok Post. I was living in Thailand during the 91 coup and the 92 slaughter, and then when I returned to my home country I read the Post everyday on the internet. I have now lived here for the past 10 years. During the past 28 years I have never seen anyone more corrupt than Thaksin and his cronies. From the beginning of the Thai Rak Thai Party, there was corruption, when Thaksin paid MPs from other parties to join his. Then he put his assets in his maid's and chauffeur's name to conceal them. It it was not for the vote of one dubious judge Thaksin would have been banned from office shortly after he became PM on corruption charges. So don't try to say that others are more corrupt than Thaksin. Sure he has helped the poor from Isaan more than any other PM, but that does not excuse his corruption. The middle-class of Bangkok are getting sick of paying for this corrupt government and thus the demonstrations. This protest seems like a true peoples movement. Unlike the Yellow Shirts that were mostly financed by the Manger Newspaper Group, and the Redshirt Protest that was financed by Thaksin, this protest seems to be financed by the people. On Friday during their protest march they raised around ฿8million in donations from fellow protesters and others. These protesters aren't being paid, on the contrary they are paying. Sent from my i-mobile IQ X using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

You really drove 45 km to buy a crap newspaper and still you have a very narrow minded look of youre suroundings after so many years sad very sad.And a few flaws in youre story also fella.

It was the only really good newspaper then. I read it religiously as did most foreigners at that time, their sports coverage was good .There was no cable..

I felt I posted a fair review of what has happened. At the time, back in the 80s, it was hard to get any info about Thailand and the Bangkok Post was the only English newspaper available. At least I made an effort to find out all I could about Thailand. If there are some faults in my story please point them out, I am by no means perfect, and am always trying to increase my knowledge.

Sent from my i-mobile IQ X using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

There is huge inequality here. The rich treat the poor badly.

There is a lot of sympathy for the red shirts objectives but they need to dis engage from taksin.

I'm with issangeorge in regards the first impression of taksin. The country was very depressed after the Asian crisis, chuan lekpai was a definition of inertia, taksin came across as a can do rich guy. He was what the country needed. Then he over reached himself, corruption became untenable.

He has totally miscalculated almost at every step..

I would also like to know the flaws in issangeorge post as I was here at the time..you must remember We hardly saw any farangs and I lived in a soi off Ekkamsi at the time? Information in English was very limited.

To answer the question in youre last paragraph wich is almost an answer its self information in English was very limited at the time,and we al know wich family's own both English newspapers so how can one claim that corruption is much worse now then so many years ago when only reading the bkk post ,sorry i dont buy that.

[Roadman]

I have been coming to Thailand for 28 years and following the politics for that long. In the early days before internet I would drive 45kms every week to get a copy of the Saturday Bangkok Post. I was living in Thailand during the 91 coup and the 92 slaughter, and then when I returned to my home country I read the Post everyday on the internet. I have now lived here for the past 10 years. During the past 28 years I have never seen anyone more corrupt than Thaksin and his cronies. From the beginning of the Thai Rak Thai Party, there was corruption, when Thaksin paid MPs from other parties to join his. Then he put his assets in his maid's and chauffeur's name to conceal them. It it was not for the vote of one dubious judge Thaksin would have been banned from office shortly after he became PM on corruption charges. So don't try to say that others are more corrupt than Thaksin. Sure he has helped the poor from Isaan more than any other PM, but that does not excuse his corruption. The middle-class of Bangkok are getting sick of paying for this corrupt government and thus the demonstrations. This protest seems like a true peoples movement. Unlike the Yellow Shirts that were mostly financed by the Manger Newspaper Group, and the Redshirt Protest that was financed by Thaksin, this protest seems to be financed by the people. On Friday during their protest march they raised around ฿8million in donations from fellow protesters and others. These protesters aren't being paid, on the contrary they are paying. Sent from my i-mobile IQ X using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Good post and spot on.

[kikoman]

"Democracy is all about the majority rules, Being against a free election, is a dictatorship!"

Democracy is a system that ensures the government is responsible to both the public and individual alike. Majority rule is the way of choosing. They are not the same thing. That's why a democratic constitution has two parts. The first one being its domain which is about what the public collectively can or can't vote for. For instance, can the public vote to remove all of your belongings and wealth despite the fact that you've done nothing wrong? The second part is the method of which the decision will be made. You've spoken well about the second part of democratic constitution but completely disregard the most of important aspect of a democratic government. When the majority can do just about anything by disregarding good moral and judgement and simply because they claim they are elected, is it so much different from dictatorship? In this regard, you simply change from a single into group-based dictator.

If democracy is identical to election, then the term democracy is no longer needed. Why don't you just call it an election based government?

You may call it what ever you want!

I grew up in a democracy, The avenue for electing its leaders is based on the election process and everyone must accept the results of the Majority, hence the term Majority Rule.,

Our democracy is governed by a rule of checks and balances, between the three branches of government , Executive, Legislative and the Judicial, as this is not a thread about the make up of the democratic process, but how it is being circumvented by the demonstrator in Bangkok.

I am calling it what it is a Democracy, that demands its leaders by pick through the election process in accordance with the Constitution of Thailand!

Cheers

[txp158]

"Democracy is all about the majority rules, Being against a free election, is a dictatorship!"

Democracy is a system that ensures the government is responsible to both the public and individual alike. Majority rule is the way of choosing. They are not the same thing. That's why a democratic constitution has two parts. The first one being its domain which is about what the public collectively can or can't vote for. For instance, can the public vote to remove all of your belongings and wealth despite the fact that you've done nothing wrong? The second part is the method of which the decision will be made. You've spoken well about the second part of democratic constitution but completely disregard the most of important aspect of a democratic government. When the majority can do just about anything by disregarding good moral and judgement and simply because they claim they are elected, is it so much different from dictatorship? In this regard, you simply change from a single into group-based dictator.

If democracy is identical to election, then the term democracy is no longer needed. Why don't you just call it an election based government?

You may call it what ever you want!

I grew up in a democracy, The avenue for electing its leaders is based on the election process and everyone must accept the results of the Majority, hence the term Majority Rule.,

Our democracy is governed by a rule of checks and balances, between the three branches of government , Executive, Legislative and the Judicial, as this is not a thread about the make up of the democratic process, but how it is being circumvented by the demonstrator in Bangkok.

I am calling it what it is a Democracy, that demands its leaders by pick through the election process in accordance with the Constitution of Thailand!

Cheers

I did not know that the demonstrators do not want an election. I know that they do not want an election now but after the reform of the constitution.

If what you are saying is true, would you be so kind as to show me your reference.

Edited December 22, 2013 by txp158

[Roadman]

Kikoman, after Thaksin started to buy MPs he lost my support. When he first formed the Thai Rak Thai Party I supported him. I was under the false impression that because he was already so rich he wouldn't be corrupt. I am still against him, but there is no way I can support the Democratic Party who are acting like a bunch of children and as far as Suthep goes he is just a joke, but the only person who is anti Thaksin right now, so the Bangkok middle class are following him. One thing I think your daughter got wrong, although it is hardly her fault, because it Is the misinformation the Red Shirts are spreading, but the Democratic Party support the ฿30 medical plan and at no time have said they would cancel it. Sent from my i-mobile IQ X using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I never backed Thaksin, I always thought he was using the Thai people to further his own political career, that the billions of baht he should have paid in taxes would have gone a long way in helping the less advantaged of the Thai population.

The one thing I credit him for was that he was the one that helped the less affluent folks in Thailand by addressing their basic human needs as equal citizens of Thailand, that no other politician recognized before in this country. He gave them a piece of the Thai pie, which the rich objected too, as to costly a program.

The long line of his relatives that where placed into important political offices, his brother-in-law and his sister were PMs, that Yingluck tried to push the amnesty bill, so that Thaksin can come home without servings his 2 years in prison.

Then the Democratic party members supposedly left the party to lead the demonstration against Yingluck because of her backing the amnesty bill, all well and good, then they started taking over state property and calling for reform in government.

Then they came out backing a "non-elected" peoples government, and vowed to topple the elected government and a series of act aimed at ending the rule of democracy in Thailand, that is when I started to question why would I support the rich over the village people that I personally know and love.

I saw my daughters support for Yinglucks government and our family meeting, In last weeks Bangkok post. Suthep was quoted as specifically targeting populous programs that must be dealt with, Again last week in the Bangkok post was what they expect to happen between now and the next election in about 18 months, that no populous programs could be legislated.

I do not care what your explanation of what the Democratic party embraces, That party must state publicly that they back the programs in question, that any elected government will honor the 30 baht medical plan, period! Till they do that I will only consider my complete backing of my family allegiance to the present government based on the democratic principles of "Majority Rule" and advise them to address the actions of the amnesty bill, that no person convicted by a Thai court can receive amnesty.

When I look at the political motive behind the demonstrators to grab political power, without an election, I fully back the Democratic process for Thailand.

Yingluck politic looks better every day! As I do not have any say in what happens in Thailand, I do not have the right to vote or become involved, I can only support my families decision to back the Democratic process in Thailand!

cheers

I think you are a bit confused. Thaksin brought in the Baht 30 medical plan, when the Democrats came to power they made it free. When the Thaksin proxies came back to power the 30 Baht fee was re instated.

Also I have no time for Suthep nor Thaksin, nor any other of the corrupt and incompetent idiots that are dragging Thailand down, but democracy does not start and end at winning an election. It also includes governing within and to the laws and constitution something that Thaksins proxy governments are becoming increasingly lawless to.

Strange that you request that the Dems must state publicly what there platforms are, where as Yingluck as the American native Indian would say "speaks with forked tongue" and has shown that time and again since in power and still is right up until the day before her latest reform proposal.

My daughter (step) is also an Isaan lass. Raised through all her teen years through high school and university in the country that endlessly sits as 1st or 1st equal in democratic application, equality and least corruption. That life style experience seems to have allowed her and her friends (also a large group of Isaan lass's) also busy with their degrees the flexibility to see Thailand for what it is - an out of control corrupt mess whether that be at the hand of Thaksin or whoever. And the opinion of her and her friends that I really value in relation to the people that are demonstrating in Bangkok is that they are not the rich elite as is being wrongly portraited but the middle class thai's who are just absolutely p!ssed off with the increasing levels of corruption and lawlessness again whether that be at Thaksins or Sutheps or who evers hands.

[TheFishman1]

I have been coming to Thailand for 28 years and following the politics for that long. In the early days before internet I would drive 45kms every week to get a copy of the Saturday Bangkok Post. I was living in Thailand during the 91 coup and the 92 slaughter, and then when I returned to my home country I read the Post everyday on the internet. I have now lived here for the past 10 years. During the past 28 years I have never seen anyone more corrupt than Thaksin and his cronies. From the beginning of the Thai Rak Thai Party, there was corruption, when Thaksin paid MPs from other parties to join his. Then he put his assets in his maid's and chauffeur's name to conceal them. It it was not for the vote of one dubious judge Thaksin would have been banned from office shortly after he became PM on corruption charges. So don't try to say that others are more corrupt than Thaksin. Sure he has helped the poor from Isaan more than any other PM, but that does not excuse his corruption. The middle-class of Bangkok are getting sick of paying for this corrupt government and thus the demonstrations. This protest seems like a true peoples movement. Unlike the Yellow Shirts that were mostly financed by the Manger Newspaper Group, and the Redshirt Protest that was financed by Thaksin, this protest seems to be financed by the people. On Friday during their protest march they raised around ฿8million in donations from fellow protesters and others. These protesters aren't being paid, on the contrary they are paying. Sent from my i-mobile IQ X using Thaivisa Con of Police in CM nect Thailand mobile app

I totally agree Thaksin is a Billionaire like Chief Police in CM was he getting a big piece of ever thing coming into the country that was part of the things coming in from neighboring country's, was his hands into everything or I guess in Thailand Billionaire are just like everyday Thais. I love the part on CNN new where his sister said she speaks to him ever day probably

about the weather what a joke . How many Thais living in a different country gets there Passport delivered to them what a joke. They need to clean house. Just my 2 cents

[benalibina]

Kikoman, after Thaksin started to buy MPs he lost my support. When he first formed the Thai Rak Thai Party I supported him. I was under the false impression that because he was already so rich he wouldn't be corrupt. I am still against him, but there is no way I can support the Democratic Party who are acting like a bunch of children and as far as Suthep goes he is just a joke, but the only person who is anti Thaksin right now, so the Bangkok middle class are following him. One thing I think your daughter got wrong, although it is hardly her fault, because it Is the misinformation the Red Shirts are spreading, but the Democratic Party support the ฿30 medical plan and at no time have said they would cancel it. Sent from my i-mobile IQ X using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I never backed Thaksin, I always thought he was using the Thai people to further his own political career, that the billions of baht he should have paid in taxes would have gone a long way in helping the less advantaged of the Thai population.

The one thing I credit him for was that he was the one that helped the less affluent folks in Thailand by addressing their basic human needs as equal citizens of Thailand, that no other politician recognized before in this country. He gave them a piece of the Thai pie, which the rich objected too, as to costly a program.

The long line of his relatives that where placed into important political offices, his brother-in-law and his sister were PMs, that Yingluck tried to push the amnesty bill, so that Thaksin can come home without servings his 2 years in prison.

Then the Democratic party members supposedly left the party to lead the demonstration against Yingluck because of her backing the amnesty bill, all well and good, then they started taking over state property and calling for reform in government.

Then they came out backing a "non-elected" peoples government, and vowed to topple the elected government and a series of act aimed at ending the rule of democracy in Thailand, that is when I started to question why would I support the rich over the village people that I personally know and love.

I saw my daughters support for Yinglucks government and our family meeting, In last weeks Bangkok post. Suthep was quoted as specifically targeting populous programs that must be dealt with, Again last week in the Bangkok post was what they expect to happen between now and the next election in about 18 months, that no populous programs could be legislated.

I do not care what your explanation of what the Democratic party embraces, That party must state publicly that they back the programs in question, that any elected government will honor the 30 baht medical plan, period! Till they do that I will only consider my complete backing of my family allegiance to the present government based on the democratic principles of "Majority Rule" and advise them to address the actions of the amnesty bill, that no person convicted by a Thai court can receive amnesty.

When I look at the political motive behind the demonstrators to grab political power, without an election, I fully back the Democratic process for Thailand.

Yingluck politic looks better every day! As I do not have any say in what happens in Thailand, I do not have the right to vote or become involved, I can only support my families decision to back the Democratic process in Thailand!

cheers

I think you are a bit confused. Thaksin brought in the Baht 30 medical plan, when the Democrats came to power they made it free. When the Thaksin proxies came back to power the 30 Baht fee was re instated.

Also I have no time for Suthep nor Thaksin, nor any other of the corrupt and incompetent idiots that are dragging Thailand down, but democracy does not start and end at winning an election. It also includes governing within and to the laws and constitution something that Thaksins proxy governments are becoming increasingly lawless to.

Strange that you request that the Dems must state publicly what there platforms are, where as Yingluck as the American native Indian would say "speaks with forked tongue" and has shown that time and again since in power and still is right up until the day before her latest reform proposal.

My daughter (step) is also an Isaan lass. Raised through all her teen years through high school and university in the country that endlessly sits as 1st or 1st equal in democratic application, equality and least corruption. That life style experience seems to have allowed her and her friends (also a large group of Isaan lass's) also busy with their degrees the flexibility to see Thailand for what it is - an out of control corrupt mess whether that be at the hand of Thaksin or whoever. And the opinion of her and her friends that I really value in relation to the people that are demonstrating in Bangkok is that they are not the rich elite as is being wrongly portraited but the middle class thai's who are just absolutely p!ssed off with the increasing levels of corruption and lawlessness again whether that be at Thaksins or Sutheps or who evers hands.

In 2006, a couple of months before Thaksin was ousted while in New York, i spoke with an elderly guy. He said it has all gone out of control with corruption and people feared their governmentjobs so had to keep quiet. They were part of the old clicque. The guy said everything should go back to normal.....i.e. beneficiary for the old clicque. The Issaan lasses which u refer to are to be praised for their opnions but the middle classes protesting in bkk are in it only for themselves. Change wont come by them....the children of the Issaan lasses ......or grandchildren.....most likely can bring the change. What i personally dont understand is, they have a revered monarch....setting examples all his life......still nothing changes......human nature......?? Self ??

[kikoman]

txp 158

All you need to do is type into internet search,

"Why Bangkok protesters do not want a 2-2-2014 National election?"

Take your pick of references as available on the web,

Best to search why Suthep states election would not be held until a year to a !8 months, during that time the country will be overseen by his appointed "Peoples Counsel", with Suthep as Secretary General, (he would be running the country)!

The Documentation is in the National news, I have Bangkok Post, e-news on my computer, it is in there.During the last week!

Also the Democratic Party will boycott the election!

Its there just as easy for you to search for it as me.

Cheers

[kikoman]

txp 158

Just a recommendation, to read the article titled "Chiang Mai Reds vow support for US Ambassador" As demonstrators demonstrated at the US embassy demanding US Ambassador be removed, because she expressed support for the February 2, 2014 election and threaten to forcefully enter the US Embassy. in the Thailand News forum of TV forum!

Cheers

[GrantSmith]

Voltaire said "The problem with common sense is; it's not very common"

If history has taught us anything; it's that anything is possible.

Thaksin will be back he will receive a pardon or be granted amnesty. The scenario is far from over the yellow shirts will devolve and the country will go on as usual; but for this to happen there has to be a catalyst and that catalyst is waiting in the corner.

Thaksin back by virtue of amnesty or Royal pardon?

In which paranormal world are purportedly living in?

Not sure if it's your auto correct playing up or not, but it's "expatriates" not "ex patriots" - it gives a totally different meaning.

But having "resided" here for 30 years, you'd already know the difference. Been there, done that et al?

You were right to quote Voltaire though, common sense and all that..

[kikoman]

Kikoman, after Thaksin started to buy MPs he lost my support. When he first formed the Thai Rak Thai Party I supported him. I was under the false impression that because he was already so rich he wouldn't be corrupt. I am still against him, but there is no way I can support the Democratic Party who are acting like a bunch of children and as far as Suthep goes he is just a joke, but the only person who is anti Thaksin right now, so the Bangkok middle class are following him. One thing I think your daughter got wrong, although it is hardly her fault, because it Is the misinformation the Red Shirts are spreading, but the Democratic Party support the ฿30 medical plan and at no time have said they would cancel it. Sent from my i-mobile IQ X using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I never backed Thaksin, I always thought he was using the Thai people to further his own political career, that the billions of baht he should have paid in taxes would have gone a long way in helping the less advantaged of the Thai population.

The one thing I credit him for was that he was the one that helped the less affluent folks in Thailand by addressing their basic human needs as equal citizens of Thailand, that no other politician recognized before in this country. He gave them a piece of the Thai pie, which the rich objected too, as to costly a program.

The long line of his relatives that where placed into important political offices, his brother-in-law and his sister were PMs, that Yingluck tried to push the amnesty bill, so that Thaksin can come home without servings his 2 years in prison.

Then the Democratic party members supposedly left the party to lead the demonstration against Yingluck because of her backing the amnesty bill, all well and good, then they started taking over state property and calling for reform in government.

Then they came out backing a "non-elected" peoples government, and vowed to topple the elected government and a series of act aimed at ending the rule of democracy in Thailand, that is when I started to question why would I support the rich over the village people that I personally know and love.

I saw my daughters support for Yinglucks government and our family meeting, In last weeks Bangkok post. Suthep was quoted as specifically targeting populous programs that must be dealt with, Again last week in the Bangkok post was what they expect to happen between now and the next election in about 18 months, that no populous programs could be legislated.

I do not care what your explanation of what the Democratic party embraces, That party must state publicly that they back the programs in question, that any elected government will honor the 30 baht medical plan, period! Till they do that I will only consider my complete backing of my family allegiance to the present government based on the democratic principles of "Majority Rule" and advise them to address the actions of the amnesty bill, that no person convicted by a Thai court can receive amnesty.

When I look at the political motive behind the demonstrators to grab political power, without an election, I fully back the Democratic process for Thailand.

Yingluck politic looks better every day! As I do not have any say in what happens in Thailand, I do not have the right to vote or become involved, I can only support my families decision to back the Democratic process in Thailand!

cheers

I think you are a bit confused. Thaksin brought in the Baht 30 medical plan, when the Democrats came to power they made it free. When the Thaksin proxies came back to power the 30 Baht fee was re instated.

Also I have no time for Suthep nor Thaksin, nor any other of the corrupt and incompetent idiots that are dragging Thailand down, but democracy does not start and end at winning an election. It also includes governing within and to the laws and constitution something that Thaksins proxy governments are becoming increasingly lawless to.

Strange that you request that the Dems must state publicly what there platforms are, where as Yingluck as the American native Indian would say "speaks with forked tongue" and has shown that time and again since in power and still is right up until the day before her latest reform proposal.

My daughter (step) is also an Isaan lass. Raised through all her teen years through high school and university in the country that endlessly sits as 1st or 1st equal in democratic application, equality and least corruption. That life style experience seems to have allowed her and her friends (also a large group of Isaan lass's) also busy with their degrees the flexibility to see Thailand for what it is - an out of control corrupt mess whether that be at the hand of Thaksin or whoever. And the opinion of her and her friends that I really value in relation to the people that are demonstrating in Bangkok is that they are not the rich elite as is being wrongly portraited but the middle class thai's who are just absolutely p!ssed off with the increasing levels of corruption and lawlessness again whether that be at Thaksins or Sutheps or who evers hands.

Not in the least, Your explanation is an example of your confusion.

There was a free income based (Free in theory) program that was suppose to cover the income eligible poor population (30% of Thailand's population) It was under funded as the government paid 250 baht for registered eligible poor person, it never worked because of the lack of government funding,

Thaksin implemented the 30 baht medical insurance plan, funded by 1,200 baht per resident in the Provence plus a 30 baht fee per visit, that insurance covered the 50% of the uninsured Thai population and also incorporated the (Medical welfare free program) eligible population, so the 30 baht plan covers 80% of the residents of Thailand. The program covers half of the uninsured Thai population that were not covered under the (Free Welfare) medical program.

The basic function of a Democracy is a free open election to elect its leaders, the country then comes together and supports the winner of the election, Majority Rule, as most expats were raise under a democratic system, they are well informed about how a democracy works, No need to discuss that system.

As the 2-2-14 election follows the requirements of the current Thai constitution, it is completely legal as called by the PM.

Some Children are not taught to make their own decision, which our daughter has always been allow to, But my wife, my mother-in-law, my wife's uncle and the vast majority of the village support the present government and the election.

The people in Bangkok protesting, are the rich, and influential families of the ruling elite, how many middle class families can afford to donate the amount of cash donated during the march!

Edited December 22, 2013 by kikoman

[benalibina]

Kikoman, after Thaksin started to buy MPs he lost my support. When he first formed the Thai Rak Thai Party I supported him. I was under the false impression that because he was already so rich he wouldn't be corrupt. I am still against him, but there is no way I can support the Democratic Party who are acting like a bunch of children and as far as Suthep goes he is just a joke, but the only person who is anti Thaksin right now, so the Bangkok middle class are following him. One thing I think your daughter got wrong, although it is hardly her fault, because it Is the misinformation the Red Shirts are spreading, but the Democratic Party support the ฿30 medical plan and at no time have said they would cancel it. Sent from my i-mobile IQ X using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I never backed Thaksin, I always thought he was using the Thai people to further his own political career, that the billions of baht he should have paid in taxes would have gone a long way in helping the less advantaged of the Thai population.

The one thing I credit him for was that he was the one that helped the less affluent folks in Thailand by addressing their basic human needs as equal citizens of Thailand, that no other politician recognized before in this country. He gave them a piece of the Thai pie, which the rich objected too, as to costly a program.

The long line of his relatives that where placed into important political offices, his brother-in-law and his sister were PMs, that Yingluck tried to push the amnesty bill, so that Thaksin can come home without servings his 2 years in prison.

Then the Democratic party members supposedly left the party to lead the demonstration against Yingluck because of her backing the amnesty bill, all well and good, then they started taking over state property and calling for reform in government.

Then they came out backing a "non-elected" peoples government, and vowed to topple the elected government and a series of act aimed at ending the rule of democracy in Thailand, that is when I started to question why would I support the rich over the village people that I personally know and love.

I saw my daughters support for Yinglucks government and our family meeting, In last weeks Bangkok post. Suthep was quoted as specifically targeting populous programs that must be dealt with, Again last week in the Bangkok post was what they expect to happen between now and the next election in about 18 months, that no populous programs could be legislated.

I do not care what your explanation of what the Democratic party embraces, That party must state publicly that they back the programs in question, that any elected government will honor the 30 baht medical plan, period! Till they do that I will only consider my complete backing of my family allegiance to the present government based on the democratic principles of "Majority Rule" and advise them to address the actions of the amnesty bill, that no person convicted by a Thai court can receive amnesty.

When I look at the political motive behind the demonstrators to grab political power, without an election, I fully back the Democratic process for Thailand.

Yingluck politic looks better every day! As I do not have any say in what happens in Thailand, I do not have the right to vote or become involved, I can only support my families decision to back the Democratic process in Thailand!

cheers

I think you are a bit confused. Thaksin brought in the Baht 30 medical plan, when the Democrats came to power they made it free. When the Thaksin proxies came back to power the 30 Baht fee was re instated.

Also I have no time for Suthep nor Thaksin, nor any other of the corrupt and incompetent idiots that are dragging Thailand down, but democracy does not start and end at winning an election. It also includes governing within and to the laws and constitution something that Thaksins proxy governments are becoming increasingly lawless to.

Strange that you request that the Dems must state publicly what there platforms are, where as Yingluck as the American native Indian would say "speaks with forked tongue" and has shown that time and again since in power and still is right up until the day before her latest reform proposal.

My daughter (step) is also an Isaan lass. Raised through all her teen years through high school and university in the country that endlessly sits as 1st or 1st equal in democratic application, equality and least corruption. That life style experience seems to have allowed her and her friends (also a large group of Isaan lass's) also busy with their degrees the flexibility to see Thailand for what it is - an out of control corrupt mess whether that be at the hand of Thaksin or whoever. And the opinion of her and her friends that I really value in relation to the people that are demonstrating in Bangkok is that they are not the rich elite as is being wrongly portraited but the middle class thai's who are just absolutely p!ssed off with the increasing levels of corruption and lawlessness again whether that be at Thaksins or Sutheps or who evers hands.

Not in the least, Your explanation is an example of your confusion.

There was a free income based (Free in theory) program that was suppose to cover the income eligible poor population (30% of Thailand's population) It was under funded as the government paid 250 baht for registered eligible poor person, it never worked because of the lack of government funding,

Thaksin implemented the 30 baht medical insurance plan, funded by 1,200 baht per resident in the Provence plus a 30 baht fee per visit, that insurance covered the 50% of the uninsured Thai population and also incorporated the (Medical welfare free program) eligible population, so the 30 baht plan covers 80% of the residents of Thailand. The program covers half of the uninsured Thai population that were not covered under the (Free Welfare) medical program.

The basic function of a Democracy is a free open election to elect its leaders, the country then comes together and supports the winner of the election, Majority Rule, as most expats were raise under a democratic system, they are well informed about how a democracy works, No need to discuss that system.

As the 2-2-14 election follows the requirements of the current Thai constitution, it is completely legal as called by the PM.

Some Children are not taught to make their own decision, which our daughter has always been allow to, But my wife, my mother-in-law, my wife's uncle and the vast majority of the village support the present government and the election.

The people in Bangkok protesting, are the rich, and influential families of the ruling elite, how many middle class families can afford to donate the amount of cash donated during the march!

So you mean that in 2010 it was different ? This on your last sentence. Pfffffff

[khunpa]

Thailand is a country were voters and demonstrations can be arranged, if the price is right. That is not democracy and it will never be, as long as the population is divided into "The Elite" (The Super Rich and Powerful) and "The Rest" - and common (poor) people can be bought to have a specific opinion.

A true democracy requires not only a very low corruption level, but also that the population is socially balanced - both on a financial and educational level. Thailand is very far from that. So I doubt it really will make any difference who leads... The Elite will run the show and do it based on personal interests and greed.

Just like the rest of the world is run... :-)

Edited December 22, 2013 by khunpa

[geronimo]

All politicians are corrupt. most do nothing for the country, while gorging themselves. Thaksin gave something to the country and I think his downfall was trying to legalise the three and two digit lottery. Imagine the powerful people that would lose out if that happened!

[kikoman]

Thailand is a country were voters and demonstrations can be arranged, if the price is right. That is not democracy and it will never be, as long as the population is divided into "The Elite" (The Super Rich and Powerful) and "The Rest" - and common (poor) people can be bought to have a specific opinion.

A true democracy requires not only a very low corruption level, but also that the population is socially balanced - both on a financial and educational level. Thailand is very far from that. So I doubt it really will make any difference who leads... The Elite will run the show and do it based on personal interests and greed.

Just like the rest of the world is run... :-)

I live in a village where those common people back the current elected government and the election process, You as most Holier than thou Falangs, harbor a very low opinion of Thai's, and your defense of the riches grab for power, that a few hundred Baht can buy the undying support.of the Poor and rural residents of Thailand.

In the elections I have witnessed is that all political parties participate in vote buying, yet you all act as if corruption and vote buying in Thailand began with the election victory of Thaksin Shinawatra, you are wrong.

The rich and old power structure, have been unable to win an election in 20 years, before Thaksin was elected PM, He has only done one thing different than previous political parties and that was champion programs that helped the majority common resident.in Thailand, Re: gave them a piece of the pie, that is what started the unwavering support for his style of politics.

Cheers

Edited December 23, 2013 by kikoman

[GuestHouse]

If the question is, which party is more corrupt then we need to examine the corruption (and the parties).

We know that in both parties there is a base level of corruption that might be best described as the snouts of the politicians and their families hog feasting in the national coffers.

The only difference Thailand sees between the political parties at this level is who's snouts are in the trough.

Its not as simple as one party or the other because politicians themselves will switch allegiance after an election, make their own private deal with the political elite to get their own snout in the trough and secure the feasting of their new found political allies.

A westerner viewing politics might expect fundamental differences in the parties, different views of how the nation is run. That difference does not exist in Thailand ~ The political space in which even the politicians can and do act is limited. Why, how and by whom is another discussion.

What Thaksin recognized and what he made very smart personal political use of is the fact that the Thai people have been long schooled in deference and the belief that they need a good person to look after them. This might be at the very local level, it might be at a more national level. Taksin instigated populist policies with his name firmly attached to buy himself in to the position of that good man with national funds.

Where the polices corrupt? No you could not say they in themselves were corrupt, though the later rice policies have been a disastrous mistake and their is corruption in the implementation of all the populist policies.

The problem arises that the policies and the Thaksin political use of these polices has corrupted the political process - not the politicians and policies but the whole relationship between voter and government. It is no longer vote for the government it is vote for or against Thaksin.

The people in the villages understand they are voting for Thaksin, they understand he looks after them.

The urban middle class (not the rich and powerful elite but ordinary urban middle class Thais) understand the corruption of the political process, they understand the economic and social damage and they very much understand the challenge of a Thaksin (Shinawatra) dynasty - it is this latter point that has the attention of the elites.

The forthcoming election is not a fare and free election, the result has already been bought.

Its been bought with public money and it is being daily secured with the appointment of political supporters to positions of local influence, be that heads of civil servant departments, heads of university departments, heads of police.

The game at play is not who is going to win the next election, the game is who is going to take control over the Thai political scene for the coming generation or longer.

[GuestHouse]

The answer to the problems of ordinary Thai people is not Phua Thai nor is it the democrats. These parties are not acting for the good of ordinary people, Phua Thai the party of the red shirts chooses to leave Red shirt supporters in prison as pawns to be played to get an amnesty they say they want for all, but they actually want for one man.

An amnesty for all except that one man would sail through parliament - it is never taken up.

The Democrats have yet to find an answer to the PT Thaksin Popularism meanwhile the PT swiftly cut the Red Shirts out of a place at the political table when they took power (a few token seats to buy off the masses).

This constant battle between exactly the same political faces is not going to change until grass roots Thai political movements present and elect their own leaders.

Otherwise the game shall continue as ever.

The inevitable change to the Thai political scene is coming - Unless things change soon, unless Thai political movements can put up parties who actually do represent the people then the future of Thai politics is not going to be free and open elections. Its going to be a single party, single family political machine running the country of the type, form and methods we might see in other 'Democratic nations around Asia'.

It is for this reason the protest leaders have been calling for reform of laws which they know those other Asian political machines have used to control public debate and decent. They know they are not fighting for the next election.

The corruption of snouts in the public coffers is small beer, almost indistinguishable between the parties.

The corruption at play right now and at the heart of the conflict in Thailand is the corruption to take political control of this nation for decades to come.

Edited December 23, 2013 by GuestHouse

[In Search of Space]

What's with the 'COMMON MAN' Doesn't that just perpetuate societal divisions, which really are much less obvious in Thailand than the UK or many western countries.

I think it is far more obvious here in Thailand, just translate common man for poor man. Corruption on both sides of the political arena together petty corruption at police and local government level needs to be eradicated before this country can feel its full potential. But it has to the the Thais who make those changes and it will take several generations.

[kikoman]

Who is Suthep Thaugsuban?

a quick run down!

!. a long time member of the Affluent ruling elite!

2, Shrimp farm and palm oil magnate, net worth (2010) B140 million.

3. Career politician has held a seat in the parliament since 1979. for 34 years

4. Cabinet positions held, once Communication minister, twice Deputy Agriculture Minister,

5.2010 Deputy Prime Minister.

Allegations of Corruption.

1. In 1995, a scandal involving Suthep's land reform program caused Prime Minister Chuan Leekpai to dissolve the House rather than face a no-confidence vote, Suthep was alleged to have given land rights to the wealthy under a reform scheme meant for the poor. Suthep denied the charges, but resigned.

2. in 2010 Suthep as Deputy Prime Minister authorized a crackdown by security forces that left downtown Bangkok in flames and scores of red-shirt dead.

Along with the former Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva, Suthep faces murder charge over the 2010 crackdown,

The 1997 "People reform constitution" constitutional rewrite was designed for far reaching reforms to the country's Democratic system development.

The 2001 election was the first election held under the new Reform Constitution, results Thaksin S. was elected PM by the biggest landslide vote in Thai History.

Thaksin new face to Thai politics, Suthep same old song, different dance!

Cheers

[Heng]

They are all corrupt. It's a romanticizing it a bit to say that intelligence is more entrenched in the commoners though.

:-)

[Issangeorge]

Kikoman, Thaksin was a newer face than Suthep, but he had been around as a politician since 1992/3. He was a minister in the government during the 1997 economic collapse and was in a position to know that the ฿ was going to be devalued before it happened. Many people believe he took full advantage of this and shipped millions of ฿ out of the country at ฿25 to the US$. This may or may not be true, but it has always been a mystery that while his assets were frozen in Thailand he managed to come up with enough money to buy Manchester City plus a business jet and many other things. If he had assets outside of Thailand they should have been declared but never were. At the time he started the Thai Rak Thai Party, MPs commonly jumped from one party to another on a regular bases. The MPs were voted in not because of what they represented, but because of their connections in their local areas. This was especially true for the North and North East. The new constitution of 1997 had rules to prevent this party jumping. However these rules did not take effect until after the 2001 election. Thaksin took full advantage of this by buying MPs. He would pay the elected MPs in the North and North East, who got elected all the time no matter which party they ran under. Thaksin paid these members to switch parties and run under his party. After the 2001 election the rules of the 1997 constitution took effect and it became much harder for MPs to switch parties. So now Thaksin had his bought and paid for MPs. They most likely would have been reelected anyway, but to make sure, Thaksin promised all sorts of populous programs that would appeal to the country folk, but would be paid for by the city folk. These programs also appealed to the city folk, so the 2001 election Thaksin won a lot of seats in Bangkok as well. It then turned out that he was corrupt from the start and had concealed a lot of his assets. He was charged but by a vote of 5 to 4 he was found not guilty because the judges said he made an honest mistake. One of those five judges later said that he felt Thaksin was guilty, but because he won the election he voted not guilty. (We can probably blame all the problems today on that one judge). After Thaksin became PM he then started to twist every rule he could to eliminate as many of the checks and balances in the 1997 constitution as he could. His corruption continued and one thing he did was allow a government entity to sell land to his wife. At the time the legal experts, the papers, the opposition, and many others told him this was against the constitution, but by that time Thaksin thought he was above the law (after all he was cleared of his first corruption charge, where he knew he was clearly guilty). It turned out that selling that land was what he got charged with and found guilty and sentenced to two years in jail. By the 2005 election the Bangkok people were less enamored with him and he did not do nearly as well in Bangkok as the time before. He still did well in the North and North East. Then in late 2005/6 he changed the telecommunication laws so that he could sell Shin Corporation to the Singaporeans. He did this and twisted some rules so he did not have to pay any tax. That is when the yellow shirts came out and then the Bangkok elites staged a coup. Sure Thaksin helped the rural poor, and I can understand why they vote for him and if I had a vote in this election perhaps I would vote for him too. However he is no more democratic than Suthep and as far as corruption goes, Suthep is a petty thief compared to Thaksin. Remember Hitler was democratically elected also.

Sent from my i-mobile IQ X using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Edited December 23, 2013 by Issangeorge

[gawisemi]

Another fool believing and propagating the myth that Thaksin Shinawatra came from a peasant Thai family.

Or is it that YOU are the fool who has totally misread the original post?

It is not mentioned anywhere that Thaksin came from a poor family.

[GuestHouse]

I having lived in Thailand for over a decade, never thought very highly of Thaksin or his political machine the Democrats were given power without an election. Being from a rice growing village, Thaksin is held in very high esteem by the rice farmers of the village. When my university educated daughter posted on Facebook backing Yingluck, I decide to sit down with her to see why she felt that way ,

Hats off to your daughter, she seems to have remarkable powers of persuasion, your subsequent posts indicate you've been completely covered to the cause.

[kikoman]

I am not here to defend the actions of Thaskin S., I have clearly stated my personal distaste for Him and his politics, what has changed my mind, was my family Loyalties to the present government and the Democratic process, the fact that I personally have witnessed political parties come to my home for the specific purpose to attempt to buy votes. All major political parties in Thailand does it.

What has really opened my eyes to what is happening, the attempted take over of the government by the old affluent power brokers of the past, that have not won an election in 20 years, trying to take over an elected government to placed a non elected one in its place. Also the many anti-government Farang posting on TV that those that favor the democratic process, and the elected government, are uneducated, misinformed, and not worthy of expressing a right to cast a proper vote. That their vote is easily brought by B 200.

Those people have never experienced the rural support for the present government, That will not sit idoly by and let the politics of old take away from them their right to share the riches of the Thai economy. Make no mistake the reason they have not gone to Bangkok already is they realize the powerful backing Suthep has of high ranking generals, that if there is a violent confrontation to the present demonstrators, the military will intervene and will once again result in a non-elected member of the Democrats to again be appointed to head the government.

All that needs to be done is that Yingluck not step down, and even if the election is stopped, by the actions of the '"brownshirts" there would not be a power vacuum that Suthep could exploit.

The demonstrators have been trying to force a violent reaction, re; the threat of occupying the American embassy, the demonstration at Yinglucks home, the intimidation of the news media.

As the military has recently said they are quite disturbed by the rumbling they are hearing from the provinces and the continued disruption in the city of Bangkok.

The more I hear of the great Reformer Suthep, who has been part of the government for 34 years, and was never a reformer prior to December 2013.

The better Yingluck looks, as the better road for Thailand to follow!!

Cheers

Edited December 24, 2013 by kikoman

[Briggsy]

The original question, "Who is more corrupt?" needs to look more at functioning government institutions, particularly the police and the courts. Anyone who believes that elections held every 5 years are the be all and end all of democracy is totally wrong. Democracy cannot work without a whole range of functioning public institutions. These are an integral part of ruling a country.

So who has done more to build or emasculate government institiutions in Thailand?

This is one way to look at the question.

[GuestHouse]

Kilkom, I agree entirely with what you have said regarding the move to bring in an unelected government. It's a threat to democracy and indeed piece within Thailand.

However, this does not make an endorsement for the PT.

Bought votes and a corrupted political system are not democracy.

Thailand is facing the prospect of single party (single family) rule.

The fight for democracy is not simply one of combatting moves for an unelected government it is also one of fighting against the whole sale purchase of Thailand's political system by a convicted criminal.

Unelected governments are not the answer to this, nor is any policy the Democrats have been able to come up with.

But to claim the PT, the puppet PM or her brother at the other end of her strings are defending democracy is to fall into the trap of believing an election bought with gross miss direction of public funds is democracy.

It is not. It is the self same control of the masses by a paid up member of Thailand's elite that the PT say they are fighting.

Visit Singapore or Malaysia and see what Thaksin has in mind for Thailand - Single party police states using suppression of press, media and the right of free expression to squash all opposition.

Edited December 24, 2013 by GuestHouse

[kikoman]

"The trap of believing an election brought with the gross miss direction of public funds is Democracy"

So when does the "gross miss direction of public funds" began? The 30 Baht Medical coverage that benefits millions of the Citizens of Thailand or laws that aid the top 1% of Thailand's affluent citizens???

Does this mean that any public funds earmarked to help a large segment of Thailand's population, is not a function allowed under a Democracy?

[geriatrickid]

The original question, "Who is more corrupt?" needs to look more at functioning government institutions, particularly the police and the courts. Anyone who believes that elections held every 5 years are the be all and end all of democracy is totally wrong. Democracy cannot work without a whole range of functioning public institutions. These are an integral part of ruling a country.

So who has done more to build or emasculate government institiutions in Thailand?

This is one way to look at the question.

An attempt to answer the emasculation question could result in serious repercussions. One day,we will be able to have an open discussion. Until then, I direct your attention to the criminal charges filed against a Thai local newspaper that reported on the Rohingya issue for a current example of the problem. The journalists are being pursued by the Royal Thai Navy for their use of a Reuters news story that the RTN does not approve of.