Abe's shrine visit affronts world

[sirineou]

To those who say "Remember Hiroshima, remember Nagasaki, remember Dresden." I reply "Remember Nanking, remember Guernica, remember Coventry."

Exactly my point,plenty of blame to go around

[Jingthing]

There is no excuse for this. Japan is upsetting China on purpose, pushing their hot button on purpose, seemingly only for domestic political purposes. It is to be strongly condemned by the entire world.

[7by7]

To those who say "Remember Hiroshima, remember Nagasaki, remember Dresden." I reply "Remember Nanking, remember Guernica, remember Coventry."

Exactly my point,plenty of blame to go around

Total war, and that means bad things happen.

However, I don't think the Allies rounded people up and gassed them en masse; don't recall that they used half starved slave labour, POWs and local population, to build a railway; etc.

(Not counting the Russians, of course. We all know Stalin and Beria and their cronies were as bad, if not worse, than Hitler and Himmler and theirs.)

For Japan to have a shrine to those responsible for these crimes, let alone a modern Japanese leader visit it, is unbelievable.

Honour the war dead of both sides; but not criminals.

[sirineou]

To those who say "Remember Hiroshima, remember Nagasaki, remember Dresden." I reply "Remember Nanking, remember Guernica, remember Coventry."

Exactly my point,plenty of blame to go around

Total war, and that means bad things happen.

However, I don't think the Allies rounded people up and gassed them en masse; don't recall that they used half starved slave labour, POWs and local population, to build a railway; etc.

(Not counting the Russians, of course. We all know Stalin and Beria and their cronies were as bad, if not worse, than Hitler and Himmler and theirs.)

For Japan to have a shrine to those responsible for these crimes, let alone a modern Japanese leader visit it, is unbelievable.

Honour the war dead of both sides; but not criminals.

One mans hero is an other mans criminal

In historical maters, where it is difficult to say what actually happen

Who is to say Who is who?

[Mosha]

To those who say "Remember Hiroshima, remember Nagasaki, remember Dresden." I reply "Remember Nanking, remember Guernica, remember Coventry."

Hull

[sirineou]

There is no excuse for this. Japan is upsetting China on purpose, pushing their hot button on purpose, seemingly only for domestic political purposes. It is to be strongly condemned by the entire world.

Japan is upsetting China on purpose?

Maybe we should send China milk and cookies,I mean there they are sitting at home ,knitting doilies. bothering no one,and these rude Japanese purposely decide to upset them by visiting the shrine.

Do you guys read what you write before puling the trigger? Dont you read the news, Does the name Senkaku islands mean anything to you?

[7by7]

To those who say "Remember Hiroshima, remember Nagasaki, remember Dresden." I reply "Remember Nanking, remember Guernica, remember Coventry."

Exactly my point,plenty of blame to go around

Total war, and that means bad things happen.

However, I don't think the Allies rounded people up and gassed them en masse; don't recall that they used half starved slave labour, POWs and local population, to build a railway; etc.

(Not counting the Russians, of course. We all know Stalin and Beria and their cronies were as bad, if not worse, than Hitler and Himmler and theirs.)

For Japan to have a shrine to those responsible for these crimes, let alone a modern Japanese leader visit it, is unbelievable.

Honour the war dead of both sides; but not criminals.

One mans hero is an other mans criminal

In historical maters, where it is difficult to say what actually happen

Who is to say Who is who?

The matters we are discussing happened within the living memory of many people or, as in my case, their parents (My mother was in the army from 1940 until she left in 1944 to give birth to my brother; my father in the RAF from 1939 until de mobbed in 1946. Both volunteers.)

You may consider it difficult to say whether the perpetrators of the Holocaust were heroes or criminals; I don't.

You may consider it difficult to say whether the treatment of POWs and the people of occupied territories by the Japanese was heroic or criminal; I don't.

Maybe you should read The Railway Man by Eric Lomax or, if that's too difficult, go and see the recently released film based upon it.

There are, of course, many other books written by ex prisoners of the Japanese and other victims of both them and the Nazis.

Edited December 31, 2013 by 7by7

[sirineou]

The matters we are discussing happened within the living memory of many people or, as in my case, their parents (My mother was in the army from 1940 until she left in 1944 to give birth to my brother; my father in the RAF from 1939 until de mobbed in 1946. Both volunteers.)

You may consider it difficult to say whether the perpetrators of the Holocaust were heroes or criminals; I don't.

You may consider it difficult to say whether the treatment of POWs and the people of occupied territories by the Japanese was heroic or criminal; I don't.

Maybe you should read The Railway Man by Eric Lomax or, if that's too difficult, go and see the recently released film based upon it.

There are, of course, many other books written by ex prisoners of the Japanese and other victims of both them and the Nazis.

Ok so now we are back on square 1

Now I will again list some of the atrocities our side committed ...............

does this Thread sound like "Groundhog Day"to you, or is it just me.

They honor People we consider War criminals

we honor people they consider War criminals

and the beat goes on

jai Yen yen , get over it.

[Jingthing]

There is no excuse for this. Japan is upsetting China on purpose, pushing their hot button on purpose, seemingly only for domestic political purposes. It is to be strongly condemned by the entire world.

Japan is upsetting China on purpose?

Maybe we should send China milk and cookies,I mean there they are sitting at home ,knitting doilies. bothering no one,and these rude Japanese purposely decide to upset them by visiting the shrine.

Do you guys read what you write before puling the trigger? Dont you read the news, Does the name Senkaku islands mean anything to you?

Yes, of course they are.

The visit to this inflammatory shrine that Japan knows will freak out China, and rightly so, is totally unnecessary. Thus. on purpose.

[Scott]

This thread is about Abe's visit to the Japanese shrine. It's not about the US, The UK or anybody else. Enough obfuscation and deflection.

Stay on topic.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies deleted.

[Publicus]

The Chinese and the Japanese have been hating and killing one another for more than 2000 years - their ferocity makes the blood thirsty Europeans of the past 2000 years look like Cub Scouts. Unlike the United States and its World War II allies, the Chinese can't get over the past or get past the past

Each side instead is handling the past rather badly.

Japanese textbooks brazenly, boldly, consistently whitewash. CCP textbooks wrongly and wrongfully teach to all mainland generations that the Japanese continue to be the fascist militarists they have not been since 1945.

While the CCP for 30 years under Mao specialized in mass murdering their own people, the Japanese were democratically, peacefully and peaceably constructing a prosperous economy and society that successfully integrated itself into the world of nations and the established international order of peace, prosperity, the rule of law.

PM Shinzo Abe has travelled the Indo-Pacific strategic region advocating a "Democracy Diamond" from Japan to Hawaii on to Australia, on to India, back up again through Asean and Taiwan, South Korea. That sounds to me exactly what the times call for.

Beijing however is now establishing an East China Sea Air Defense Identification Zone which so far has been ignored by international aircraft and sea gulls alike. Beijing has announced it will establish an ADIZ over the South China Sea over which it has defied the UN International Convention on the Law of the Sea by wildly claiming sovereignty over almost all of it.

The war was a long time ago to be holding perpetual grudges that bring on cries of vengeance and of old scores to be settled. Asean countries, the United States and the World War II allies have got over it. Now it's time for the Chinese to get over their biggest hurdle in all of this - themselves.

[folium]

The Chinese and the Japanese have been hating and killing one another for more than 2000 years - their ferocity makes the blood thirsty Europeans of the past 2000 years look like Cub Scouts. Unlike the United States and its World War II allies, the Chinese can't get over the past or get past the past

Each side instead is handling the past rather badly.

Japanese textbooks brazenly, boldly, consistently whitewash. CCP textbooks wrongly and wrongfully teach to all mainland generations that the Japanese continue to be the fascist militarists they have not been since 1945.

While the CCP for 30 years under Mao specialized in mass murdering their own people, the Japanese were democratically, peacefully and peaceably constructing a prosperous economy and society that successfully integrated itself into the world of nations and the established international order of peace, prosperity, the rule of law.

PM Shinzo Abe has travelled the Indo-Pacific strategic region advocating a "Democracy Diamond" from Japan to Hawaii on to Australia, on to India, back up again through Asean and Taiwan, South Korea. That sounds to me exactly what the times call for.

Beijing however is now establishing an East China Sea Air Defense Identification Zone which so far has been ignored by international aircraft and sea gulls alike. Beijing has announced it will establish an ADIZ over the South China Sea over which it has defied the UN International Convention on the Law of the Sea by wildly claiming sovereignty over almost all of it.

The war was a long time ago to be holding perpetual grudges that bring on cries of vengeance and of old scores to be settled. Asean countries, the United States and the World War II allies have got over it. Now it's time for the Chinese to get over their biggest hurdle in all of this - themselves.

Sadly your sinophobic agenda misses a key element re Abe's recent visit to the Yasukuni shrine.

Not only is this a blatant attempt to rally nationalistic support within Japan and piss off the Chinese, but it has also succeeded in massively upsetting an already poor relationship with S. Korea. See below:

http://www.voanews.com/content/south-korea-lawmakers-condemn-japan-war-shrine-visit/1820568.html

Having the 2 key E. Asian allies at loggerheads hardly helps the US, hence the State Dept's comment that Abe's visit was a "disappointment", ie a total pain in the backside.

All in all not Japan's finest moment....

Edited December 31, 2013 by folium

[Publicus]

It's New Year's Day as I write and one of my New Year's Resolutions that I actually do keep and honor each year is to ignore egocentric pests while simultaneously being keen to be aware of stalkers.

[geriatrickid]

During WW2 there were many "Class A " war criminals on all sides,

Their position in History is dependent on who is writing it

I can't think of any. Did the allies conduct experiments on humans? Were there killing fields or gas chambers? Perhaps the Russians were brutal, but I can see why they would be slightly psycho considering what germans' scorched earth strategy.

Edited January 1, 2014 by geriatrickid

[Ulysses G.]

I can't think of any.

Me either.

[Scott]

Post deleted.

[folium]

During WW2 there were many "Class A " war criminals on all sides,

Their position in History is dependent on who is writing it

I can't think of any. Did the allies conduct experiments on humans? Were there killing fields or gas chambers? Perhaps the Russians were brutal, but I can see why they would be slightly psycho considering what germans' scorched earth strategy.

Just to clarify the point about Class A, B, C War Criminals as classified by the IMTFE.

Class A were those who "participated in a joint conspiracy to start and wage war", and were brought against those in positions of national authority/power

Class B crimes were reserved for those who committed "conventional" atrocities or crimes against humanity

Class C crimes were reserved for those in "the planning, ordering, authorization, or failure to prevent such transgressions at higher levels in the command structure."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Military_Tribunal_for_the_Far_EastOn

"Only" 28 political and military leaders were charged as Class A offenders, compared to almost 6000 Class B and C offenders.

Therefore you could argue that there were potentially Class A types on all sides. Mercifully there were few Class B types among the Allies.

Less cheerful, and a classic example of realpolitik, was the treatment of Shiro Ishii and others from the biological weapons testing Unit 731. While the Soviets wanted to try Ishii the US cut him and his colleagues an immunity deal in return for the biological weapons data that had been derived from experiments on mainly Chinese POWs. As such testing was a tad difficult to do in the US, such high grade data was deemed worthy of sparing a bunch of war criminals for. There is some evidence that Ishii even worked for a while in the US on the American biological weapons programme.

While Japan today is indeed a modern, relatively democratic nation, as a previous poster has noted while Germans have an acute knowledge and regret for WW2 period actions, such feelings and understanding are largely absent in today's Japan. This is largely a function of conscious decisions by the Japanese state in terms of the education system. See below:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21226068

Given the fact that China suffered 14 years of murderous conflict with Japan, 1931-45, and it is likely that the Japanese killed more civilians than the Nazis, it is not too difficult to see that the lack of contrition is a cause of huge friction in the region. S.Korea was also hideously treated under Japanese colonial rule and the issue of "comfort women" (aka slavery and sexual exploitation) rankles still.

[Sing_Sling]

Abe's shrine visit affronts world China

Speak for yourself.

Japan committed the most appalling atrocities in WW11. Yet, they escaped the level of trials and punishment meted out to their Nazi allies.

Japan has never recognized these crimes, or shown anywhere near the same level of contrition as Germany. Nor has it paid for the crimes or returned the billions looted.

Read the "Rape of Nanking" or any accounts of how they treated POW's and civilians, especially ethnic Chinese, in occupied countries.

Germany wasn't allowed shrines to its war criminals - but imagine the reaction if Chancellor Merkel visited something similar.

How has japan never recognised their war crimes? Perhaps a bit of historical research wold help

if the japanese won there would be no chinese in asia that is for sure , singapore govt says they only killed 50,000 chinese in singapore but the death toll is as high as 250k . the Americans were very lax on the Japanese. remember this they still did not surrender even after 2 nuclear bombs were dropped truman had to keep on bombing them. they are lucky the Americans did not go in and commit a complete genocide on japan and repopulate the island nation.who would have stopped them in 1945 and 46 but like most Japanese they are ungrateful for there fate

There would be no Chinese in Asia? What a brilliant start to your post, only to be followed by more of the same.

Thank you

[Sing_Sling]

Abe's shrine visit affronts world China

It is offensive to any nation that suffered at the hands of the Japanese war criminals whom Abe worships.

It is an affront to the Australian, Dutch, Canadian, UK and USA POWs.

The Koreans are quite upset.

My family lived in occupied China and witnessed Japanese atrocities. I am disgusted that a Japanese PM would pay homage to war criminals.

What would your reaction be if Merkel went to pray at the memorials to Himmler, Goebbels, Rosenberg et al?

She wouldn't because she's a responsible world leader and a decent human being.

The Chinese have the higher moral ground on this issue.

No, it is offensive to you and individuals

I don't think the problem is honoring the war dead. It's honoring war criminals in particular.

He wasn't honouring war criminals in particular. He was honouring the war dead

[sirineou]

During WW2 there were many "Class A " war criminals on all sides,

Their position in History is dependent on who is writing it

I can't think of any. Did the allies conduct experiments on humans? Were there killing fields or gas chambers? Perhaps the Russians were brutal, but I can see why they would be slightly psycho considering what germans' scorched earth strategy.

Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden.

lets not even go to the mass extermination committed by allied Russian forces. because according to Geriatric those were excuse do to the "German scorched earth policy"

Let the Japanese mourn their war dead, much in the same way we mourn ours, History long after it is written by those who have a vested interest in the narrative, will determine who was wrong or who was right

or possible,that all involved were wrong.

As this Tread is now occupied by the armies of the absurd, I will now haltingly retreat to the land of reason, and much to my regret abandon my few valiant brothers in arms to fight this fight on their own

As the great Monty Python said " RUN AWAY, RUN AWAY, RUN AWAY,)

[Ulysses G.]

None of those were war crimes. That was how everyone fought back in those days. Purposely raping, torturing and starving their enemies, like the axis forces did, went far beyond bombing the enemy indiscriminately.

Edited January 1, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[sirineou]

None of those were war crimes. That was how everyone fought back in those days. Purposely raping, torturing and starving their enemies, like the axis forces did, went far beyond bombing the enemy indiscriminately.

Yes dropping atomic bombs on civilian populations was the norm

[Sing_Sling]

None of those were war crimes. That was how everyone fought back in those days. Purposely raping, torturing and starving their enemies, like the axis forces did, went far beyond bombing the enemy indiscriminately.

You mean like the British in South Africa? Concentration camps . . . nice British invention

None of those were war crimes. That was how everyone fought back in those days. Purposely raping, torturing and starving their enemies, like the axis forces did, went far beyond bombing the enemy indiscriminately.

Yes dropping atomic bombs on civilian populations was the norm alt=whistling.gif pagespeed_url_hash=3700464609>

Well, to the victor the spoils . . . and the justification for atrocities . . . and re-writing history

[Publicus]

None of those were war crimes. That was how everyone fought back in those days. Purposely raping, torturing and starving their enemies, like the axis forces did, went far beyond bombing the enemy indiscriminately.

Yes dropping atomic bombs on civilian populations was the norm

[CBR250]

I understand that the Shrine is intended to honor ALL of those who died in the Great East Asian War, and is not a memorial for "war criminals" at all. Some of those who died would have been "war criminals", but most were simply young men (it is mostly young men who die in all wars) being sacrificed for the political ambitions of their elders, as was the case in WW1 in Europe. A shrine in Japan is indeed suitable for the tragic loss of those who are sacrificed for the ambition and greed of the political elites. That the shrine is for ALL whose lives are lost is reminiscent of the Australian Shrine in remembrance of the Unknown Soldier.

[Ulysses G.]

None of those were war crimes. That was how everyone fought back in those days. Purposely raping, torturing and starving their enemies, like the axis forces did, went far beyond bombing the enemy indiscriminately.

Yes dropping atomic bombs on civilian populations was the norm:whistling:

Bombing enemy cities indiscriminately was the norm. Using one big bomb instead of thousands of small ones does not a "war crime" make.

[sirineou]

I understand that the Shrine is intended to honor ALL of those who died in the Great East Asian War, and is not a memorial for "war criminals" at all. Some of those who died would have been "war criminals", but most were simply young men (it is mostly young men who die in all wars) being sacrificed for the political ambitions of their elders, as was the case in WW1 in Europe. A shrine in Japan is indeed suitable for the tragic loss of those who are sacrificed for the ambition and greed of the political elites. That the shrine is for ALL whose lives are lost is reminiscent of the Australian Shrine in remembrance of the Unknown Soldier.

We have being warned about straying off topic , yet you insist

If you are interested in the new topic you wish to discus I suggest you study the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907

[Sing_Sling]

I understand that the Shrine is intended to honor ALL of those who died in the Great East Asian War, and is not a memorial for "war criminals" at all. Some of those who died would have been "war criminals", but most were simply young men (it is mostly young men who die in all wars) being sacrificed for the political ambitions of their elders, as was the case in WW1 in Europe. A shrine in Japan is indeed suitable for the tragic loss of those who are sacrificed for the ambition and greed of the political elites. That the shrine is for ALL whose lives are lost is reminiscent of the Australian Shrine in remembrance of the Unknown Soldier.

We have being warned about straying off topic , yet you insist

If you are interested in the new topic you wish to discus I suggest you study the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907

Quite . . . so, you have studied the whole conventions? 1899 and 1907? It would be far easier for the readers here were you to post the relevant passages. I am only guessing here but you may be the only on on this form who has studied the Hague conventions of 1899 and 1907

I eagerly await your response as there are very, very many chapters and ranging in topics from prize courts to the recovery of contract debts.

[chuckd]

Famous last words:

As this Tread is now occupied by the armies of the absurd, I will now haltingly retreat to the land of reason, and much to my regret abandon my few valiant brothers in arms to fight this fight on their own

As the great Monty Python said " RUN AWAY, RUN AWAY, RUN AWAY,)