Abe's shrine visit affronts world

[Publicus]

I understand that the Shrine is intended to honor ALL of those who died in the Great East Asian War, and is not a memorial for "war criminals" at all. Some of those who died would have been "war criminals", but most were simply young men (it is mostly young men who die in all wars) being sacrificed for the political ambitions of their elders, as was the case in WW1 in Europe. A shrine in Japan is indeed suitable for the tragic loss of those who are sacrificed for the ambition and greed of the political elites. That the shrine is for ALL whose lives are lost is reminiscent of the Australian Shrine in remembrance of the Unknown Soldier.

In this spirit I think it is of value to note the PM's visit also renders a humble respect to the innocent civilians of Japan who perished in the aerial bombings during World War II.

Innocent civilians died in Europe and throughout Asia during land, sea and air military operations by all combatant forces. Those civilians of the axis countries who died or suffered are the victims of their governments' insane ideologies and aggressive ambitions in their world of 70-80 years ago.

When leaders of governments everywhere honor their military war dead and veterans they simultaneously honor the innocent civilians who were victimized.

The Yasakuni Shrine, the Hiroshima Peace Memorial and the atomic bombing peace memorial in Nagasaki are the highly visible reminders to succeeding generations everywhere of both the suffering and the consequences of irrationally following one's leaders to initiate aggressive war. It is a lesson the CCP in Beijing needs to include in its school curriculum and mass media programming in place of the belligerent and bellicose bombast it presently disseminates.

Little known to the world is the Center of the Tokyo Raid and War Damages Museum at the center of the 16 square mile area of Tokyo destroyed by a massive aerial firebombing in March, 1945, in which 100,000 civilians perished in a firestorm larger than had occurred in Dresden and which is more than either of the atom bombs killed in each attack.

Significantly, the citizen-founded Center of the Tokyo Raid Museum includes in its timeline exhibit Tokyo's 1941 attack on Pearl Harbor and examples of the Japanese government's pro-war propaganda which shows Japan's role in starting the fighting throughout the region, fighting that eventually came to the doorstep of the Japanese people themselves.

The United Nations stands strongly against the prospective use of nuclear or thermonuclear weapons of mass destruction except for possibly an instance of dire national survival. The United Nations however has neither endorsed nor condemned the use of the atom bombs by the United States in August, 1945.

Center preserves wartime memory of the Great Tokyo Air Raid

http://www.stripes.com/news/pacific/center-preserves-wartime-memory-of-the-great-tokyo-air-raid-1.221241

[PaullyW]

It was a war, and things got very ugly. All of the world's diverse peoples do not subscribe to the same measures of acceptability when it comes to inflicting maximum damage. Anyway, without being insensitive, I wish the Japanese had won Asia. Who knows? We might be living in a country full of respectable, smart, hardworking people with wonderful culture!

You'd certainly be living in a country whose xenophobia makes that of the Thais look insignificant by comparison.

And one with better everything else as well.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk

[Publicus]

It was a war, and things got very ugly. All of the world's diverse peoples do not subscribe to the same measures of acceptability when it comes to inflicting maximum damage. Anyway, without being insensitive, I wish the Japanese had won Asia. Who knows? We might be living in a country full of respectable, smart, hardworking people with wonderful culture! Alas, there were just too many Chinese. :-(

Who knows!

The world knows.

The world knows Asia would be living under a Showa dynasty that was militarist and fascist, which means we would be living and working among a local population that spent its school years marching around in uniforms and singing songs of emperor worship.

Neither did the Chinese defeat the Showa Japanese of the second world war. The allies led by the United States won the war. That's how Japan got to be a country of respectable, smart, hardworking people with their particular culture and that thing called democracy along with peace and prosperity.

The more China moves toward prosperity the less peaceful it becomes.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Publicus

[folium]

It was a war, and things got very ugly. All of the world's diverse peoples do not subscribe to the same measures of acceptability when it comes to inflicting maximum damage. Anyway, without being insensitive, I wish the Japanese had won Asia. Who knows? We might be living in a country full of respectable, smart, hardworking people with wonderful culture! Alas, there were just too many Chinese. :-(

Who knows!

The world knows.

The world knows Asia would be living under a Showa dynasty that was militarist and fascist, which means we would be living and working among a local population that spent its school years marching around in uniforms and singing songs of emperor worship.

Neither did the Chinese defeat the Showa Japanese of the second world war. The allies led by the United States won the war. That's how Japan got to be a country of respectable, smart, hardworking people with their particular culture and that thing called democracy along with peace and prosperity.

The more China moves toward prosperity the less peaceful it becomes.

I quite agree that a Japanese victory in Asia would have been an unmitigated disaster for all.

China fought Japan from 1931 to late 1941, only aided by Nazi Germany and the Soviets. Post Pearl Harbor things changed but China's contribution to the allied cause should not be overlooked, particularly when the KMT were fighting both the Japanese and Mao.

Japan's capitulation was a combination of the US atomic attacks plus the stunning victory by the Soviets in Manchuria (still studied as a copybook example of aggressive attacking strategy in military academies from Surrey to Kansas).

"the more China moves towards prosperity the less peaceful it becomes" is sadly total nonsense.

Since 1949 armed conflicts involving China have been as follows:

1950 Invasion of Tibet

1950-53 Korean War

1962 Sino-Indian War

1967 Chola Incident with India

1969 Border war with Soviets

1974 Seizure of Paracel islands

1979 Sino-Vietnam War

1988 Seizure of Johnson Atoll, Spratlys

Since 1988 have Chinese forces fired a shot in anger?

GDP per capita in current US$

1960 $92 GDP per capita

1988 $281

2012 $6091

Looks like a decided negative correlation between increased wealth in China and propensity to wage war.

[taotoo]

All of the world's diverse peoples do not subscribe to the same measures of acceptability when it comes to inflicting maximum damage.

This is absolutely wrong, and the cause of many of the world's problems. We are all the same however much we like to think we are better than others. In certain circumstances I would torture you to death and you would do the same to me.

[PaullyW]

All of the world's diverse peoples do not subscribe to the same measures of acceptability when it comes to inflicting maximum damage.

This is absolutely wrong, and the cause of many of the world's problems. We are all the same however much we like to think we are better than others. In certain circumstances I would torture you to death and you would do the same to me.

You missed my point. What I mean, for example, is that not all countries find torture acceptable.

You, being, say, an American, might torture me and think it is acceptable given the circumstances. I, as a Swede, may torture you in the exact same way, and find that it was unacceptable and be weighed down with great guilt.

[Credo]

It was a war, and things got very ugly. All of the world's diverse peoples do not subscribe to the same measures of acceptability when it comes to inflicting maximum damage. Anyway, without being insensitive, I wish the Japanese had won Asia. Who knows? We might be living in a country full of respectable, smart, hardworking people with wonderful culture! Alas, there were just too many Chinese. :-(

Who knows!

The world knows.

The world knows Asia would be living under a Showa dynasty that was militarist and fascist, which means we would be living and working among a local population that spent its school years marching around in uniforms and singing songs of emperor worship.

Neither did the Chinese defeat the Showa Japanese of the second world war. The allies led by the United States won the war. That's how Japan got to be a country of respectable, smart, hardworking people with their particular culture and that thing called democracy along with peace and prosperity.

The more China moves toward prosperity the less peaceful it becomes.

I quite agree that a Japanese victory in Asia would have been an unmitigated disaster for all.

China fought Japan from 1931 to late 1941, only aided by Nazi Germany and the Soviets. Post Pearl Harbor things changed but China's contribution to the allied cause should not be overlooked, particularly when the KMT were fighting both the Japanese and Mao.

Japan's capitulation was a combination of the US atomic attacks plus the stunning victory by the Soviets in Manchuria (still studied as a copybook example of aggressive attacking strategy in military academies from Surrey to Kansas).

"the more China moves towards prosperity the less peaceful it becomes" is sadly total nonsense.

Since 1949 armed conflicts involving China have been as follows:

1950 Invasion of Tibet

1950-53 Korean War

1962 Sino-Indian War

1967 Chola Incident with India

1969 Border war with Soviets

1974 Seizure of Paracel islands

1979 Sino-Vietnam War

1988 Seizure of Johnson Atoll, Spratlys

Since 1988 have Chinese forces fired a shot in anger?

GDP per capita in current US$

1960 $92 GDP per capita

1988 $281

2012 $6091

Looks like a decided negative correlation between increased wealth in China and propensity to wage war.

I think you are well off the mark on that one, Folium. The Chinese are certainly getting very aggressive and it doesn't require 'firing a shot' to be so.

[folium]

It was a war, and things got very ugly. All of the world's diverse peoples do not subscribe to the same measures of acceptability when it comes to inflicting maximum damage. Anyway, without being insensitive, I wish the Japanese had won Asia. Who knows? We might be living in a country full of respectable, smart, hardworking people with wonderful culture! Alas, there were just too many Chinese. :-(

Who knows!

The world knows.

The world knows Asia would be living under a Showa dynasty that was militarist and fascist, which means we would be living and working among a local population that spent its school years marching around in uniforms and singing songs of emperor worship.

Neither did the Chinese defeat the Showa Japanese of the second world war. The allies led by the United States won the war. That's how Japan got to be a country of respectable, smart, hardworking people with their particular culture and that thing called democracy along with peace and prosperity.

The more China moves toward prosperity the less peaceful it becomes.

I quite agree that a Japanese victory in Asia would have been an unmitigated disaster for all.

China fought Japan from 1931 to late 1941, only aided by Nazi Germany and the Soviets. Post Pearl Harbor things changed but China's contribution to the allied cause should not be overlooked, particularly when the KMT were fighting both the Japanese and Mao.

Japan's capitulation was a combination of the US atomic attacks plus the stunning victory by the Soviets in Manchuria (still studied as a copybook example of aggressive attacking strategy in military academies from Surrey to Kansas).

"the more China moves towards prosperity the less peaceful it becomes" is sadly total nonsense.

Since 1949 armed conflicts involving China have been as follows:

1950 Invasion of Tibet

1950-53 Korean War

1962 Sino-Indian War

1967 Chola Incident with India

1969 Border war with Soviets

1974 Seizure of Paracel islands

1979 Sino-Vietnam War

1988 Seizure of Johnson Atoll, Spratlys

Since 1988 have Chinese forces fired a shot in anger?

GDP per capita in current US$

1960 $92 GDP per capita

1988 $281

2012 $6091

Looks like a decided negative correlation between increased wealth in China and propensity to wage war.

I think you are well off the mark on that one, Folium. The Chinese are certainly getting very aggressive and it doesn't require 'firing a shot' to be so.

Unless it is all a classic game of bluff. Why should the Chinese actually want to instigate a full-blown war now with either its neighbours or the US? Who would benefit? Who would suffer? China had little to lose pre-1988, today?

I would argue that what we are seeing in the East and South China Sea is classic posturing by a nation that wants to be taken seriously, but does not have the hard- or soft-ware to deliver on its bluster, and all concerned know that actual fighting would be utterly counterproductive; politically, credibility-wise and most importantly economically.

Rather like Abe's visit to unhelpful shrines, how much is for domestic consumption and how much of China's willy-waving by air, sea and space is little more than exactly that?

The concern of course is the law of unforeseen consequences when rash decisions result in disastrous retorts and everything snowballs. Hopefully in the centenary year of the 1914 tragedy nations have hoisted this classic lesson....

China's wealth is a result of its entry into the global economic system, underpinned by trade and capital flows. Conflict would undermine and fundamentally prejudice the advances it has made. China is now in an economic embrace with the global economic system it cannot afford to unravel, nor would the world in general benefit from its unravelling.

Edited January 2, 2014 by folium

[Scott]

I think what we are seeing is a threat that is starting to get off-topic. This thread is about Abe's visit to the shrine and Japan.

Any discussion of China needs to be in the context of the current situation with Japan and more specifically about the impact of this particular action by the PM.

[CBR250]

The allies led by the United States won the war. That's how Japan got to be a country of respectable, smart, hardworking people with their particular culture and that thing called democracy along with peace and prosperity.

I am sure Macarthur and the post-war US administration made a massive contribution to modern Japan. Certainly my Japanese friends think so. But I believe that the Japanese people were an incredibly clever and hard working people long before the war. The speed with which they developed into a significant industrial power by 1940 from a medieval society less than a century earlier was phenomenal. The extent of organization of society generally, and trade in particular, during the Edo period (1600-1850) is another indicator that the Japanese cultural ingenuity pre-dates US and European influence.

[Publicus]

The poster wrote:

The speed with which they developed into a significant industrial power by 1940 from a medieval society less than a century earlier was phenomenal

You of course reference the Meiji Restoration that as you know began in 1867 and which adopted some excellent models to revolutionize Japan.

Meiji Japan adopted the French and also the German systems of education, modeled its new Navy after the British and its new Army after the Prussians, recognized religious freedom, stripped the feudal lords of their lands, introduced democracy and a Western approach to parliamentary constitutionalism and cast out the samuri, among other radical changes to include moving the capital to Tokyo.

The Japanese modernized by their own work and their own genius, having chosen excellent models to use as reference points. It's unfortunate the changes didn't prevent an early Showa dynasty militarism and fascism by the outbreak of a great war in Europe.

Current PM Shinzo Abe is presently making the rounds in Africa, presenting a $14 billion package to various African nations with the goal and purpose of reviving Japan's global footprint after a succession of brief and undistinguished premierships in Tokyo. Abe is a good representative of Japan, having visited all ten Asean countries last year.

Abe has visited almost every country of the East Asia and South Asia regions except Beijing which announced after the Shrine visit that Abe is unwelcome. The Boyz in Beijing really have to get over themselves and get a life.