Democracy is not just about elections: Thai editorial

[Docno]

This is a splendid article. Indeed, democracy is different things to different people. For some, it is an event that takes place in one day every four years. For others, it is a daily expression and a daily holding to accountability. If this country is to develop - in the words of this editorial - into a mature democracy, then all the incentives to produce the opposite must be addressed by society in forums designed to bring that about peacefully and through open dialogue for the good of all.

"...all the incentives to produce the opposite must be addressed by society in forums designed to bring that about peacefully and through open dialogue for the good of all."

This sounds all very good, but what would it mean in practice? How would you concretise it?

[Issangeorge]

Kikoman, the point is with less than 95% of MPs a government cannot be formed so what's the use of spending over a billion baht for an election, when you can't form a new government?

Sent from my i-mobile IQ X using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[martin42f]

I have been reading English language comments for many years, and frankly have been ashamed or bored with most (but not all) of them. Many are long time, many time contributors aruging or trying to "one-up" each other. We are visitors to another country and tend too often to be condescending or clever in our unasked for comments or "advice" to Thais telling them how to run their own country.

BUT, the editorial on "Democracy is not just about elections" generated some very thoughtful and fascinating responses without the usual sarcastic and condescending attempts at humor or pithy ironic comments. We are all concerned with a true Thai crisis and consequences of its resolution.

Contributors, thanks for that.

[Chonburiram]

Kikoman, the point is with less than 95% of MPs a government cannot be formed so what's the use of spending over a billion baht for an election, when you can't form a new government?

Sent from my i-mobile IQ X using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Over a billion ฿ ? Now that's a good reason!... even better when you can repeat it in near future.

[retsdon]

"Will they willingly dismantle and rebuild the system they have taken years to corrupt?"

No, the system was corrupt from the start. But nobody is allowed to say so. Aside from education, a huge factor in Thailand's inability to adapt to a democratic system of government is the whole 'kreng jai' mentality. In Thailand, it's not the least uncommon to have grown adults (especially women)creeping about on their knees when bringing papers or tea or whatever to their seated bosses - I've seen it with my own eyes. And when the chap who delivers the laundry in our moo ban comes into the room I immediately cease what I'm doing and stand up, because I can't stand the sight of a grown family man deporting himself like he expected me to take a stick to him at him any second How can people who have been conditioned to such subservience bring themselves to question those above them. The answer is that they can't - and the whole system was designed that way from the get go.

[MaxLee]

In Chinese-colonized surpressed Thailand it's all about:

"You do it my way, or the highway, or get shot"

[Issangeorge]

You do have a point, look how much money the Red Shirts can make from it, after all it is the dry season in Isaan, not much rice growing going on.

Sent from my i-mobile IQ X using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[kikoman]

The Point is that, the tyranny of the minority can not be allowed by the majority, that a hand full of terrorist (simply by intimidating those voters in those provinces from casting their vote) can not keep the country from having an election .

Regardless of the fact, that the outcome might be affected, if it is affected it would be up to the court to deal with that scenario,

A vote would indicate what the majority of the voters want, even if the Democrats boycott the election, the majority of the votes would indicate what the nation desires, will show if the rich in Bangkok and the deep south boycott expresses the will of the majority (if more than 17 million 500 thousand voters vote in the upcoming election would prove it is the will of the majority!

Cheers

Your last point was pointless, if they cannot meet the rice subsidy payments how are they going to "BUY" an election!

Cheers again!

Edited January 2, 2014 by kikoman

[Ulic]

I'm one who thinks corruption at all levels is one of Thailand's biggest obstacles to democracy and faith in government. Thailand continually acknowledges this, too, but little or nothing is done about it.

Corruption will never decrease or change until the country undertakes serious, sustained efforts at high-level corruption through under-cover sting operations. They work, period.

There is little doubt in my mind at enough people could be found to do this, whether in country or Thais living, studying, or working internationally.

Until this type of crime fighting is undertaken, nothing will change.

I agree with you 100% but it must also be combined with rule of law. No use in doing the investigations and having judges

throw out cases or find the defendants not guilts when they obviously guilty because of payoffs or political favours/alliances.

Protection of newspapers and journalists, ( some whistle blower is always spilling the goods) and rule of law are cornerstones

in the struggle to end corruption and the fight never ends.

[chainarong]

There is quiet a long Que for the democracy word . China has elections , but it is not an democracy, democracy encompass all aspects of the life you live , its everyone's right to freedom , but how many really have freedom, interpretation of democracy and the learning takes century's to understand , Thailand has no democracy , what is happening on the streets of BKK would not be tolerated in a democracy , the life you live dictates that.

[lostmebike]

The PTP does not recognize the courts and the party is controlled by a terrorist/criminal from overseas. The PTP is guilty of massive fraud and corruption.

I think massive reform is necessary before an election and that this reform must include important steps to prevent the terrorist/criminal from controlling any political parties in the country.

Totally agree with your post but who's gonna over-see this reform? Charlem and his 'experts'?

[chiang mai]

If cannot haf election, cannot haf rovemaking.

[khunken]

A very good article.

There are two major flaws here that just about all problems are a symptom of: rule of law & the pee/nong mentality.

Corruption flows from the lack of law enforcement - from the top to the bottom.

The education system doesn't allow questioning of the teachers who are in effect petty dictators and this subservient attitude then continues throughout peoples' lives. It is built in to the social structure here which will only change when the newly educated children are allowed to question their 'superiors'. It will take a generation from when (if?) it is changed.

The lack of a real democracy here is just another symptom of the lawlessness.

[CapeCobra]

Ancient Greece granted voting rights to citizens. They had to be men, > 18, completed military service. No voting rights for women, slaves, freed slaves, metics (expats). Many authors felt that this model was unjust as there was more at stake for non-haves vs haves. Majoritarianism was not the proper solution. After a lot of unrest, Solon was the mediator between poor majority and the rich elite. Thailand needs a Solon. The Bkk elite despise a form of democracy that is called Ochlocracy, the rule of the general populace, mobile vulgus (fickle crowd, hence rule of the mob or The Tyrrany of the Majority. Some call it mobocracy. I am not taking sides.

[sfbandung]

In the absolutely unthinkable situation whereby Thailand abandons democracy, as proposed by Suthep, an alternative must be proposed. This alternative must be acceptable to the majority of Thais. Which of course Suthep's model is not. He wants power to himself because he knows best. He says. And I think genuinely believes. It frustrates the hell out of him how ignorant the majority of Thais are. These dopey northern farmers' votes are worth the same as his educated, wealthy elite.

As appalling the excesses of Thaksin were they are far more palatable than a dictatorship. Or a plutocracy, which is exactly what Suthep is proposing.

How ever much it galls him he must embark on the process of educating the electorate and gaining power legitimately.

[tingtongteesood]

The Point is that, the tyranny of the minority can not be allowed by the majority, that a hand full of terrorist (simply by intimidating those voters in those provinces from casting their vote) can not keep the country from having an election .

Regardless of the fact, that the outcome might be affected, if it is affected it would be up to the court to deal with that scenario,

A vote would indicate what the majority of the voters want, even if the Democrats boycott the election, the majority of the votes would indicate what the nation desires, will show if the rich in Bangkok and the deep south boycott expresses the will of the majority (if more than 17 million 500 thousand voters vote in the upcoming election would prove it is the will of the majority!

Cheers

Your last point was pointless, if they cannot meet the rice subsidy payments how are they going to "BUY" an election!

Cheers again!

Actually you are wrong, he point is that the system doesn't work here because it has been perverted by bad people and those you call 'terrorists' want it changed for the better. Seems you are against reforms, I wonder why...?

No point in an election before reforms as the same crap will all happen again. The country needs cleaning up. Enough of the country do not want the same crap. They may be a minority, but they are right. Just because you are in a majority, it doesn't mean you are right. Once the system has been reformed and some kinks ironed out, then it may be worth trying an election.

[tingtongteesood]

The answer is to suspend 'democracy' until they can work out how to do it properly, then try again. Let reform happen first.

[millwall_fan]

Kikoman, the point is with less than 95% of MPs a government cannot be formed so what's the use of spending over a billion baht for an election, when you can't form a new government?

Sent from my i-mobile IQ X using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

They will make up the deficit with by-elections - there will also be disqualifications and the like. A number of by-elections after the main election is normal.

[thailiketoo]

The PTP does not recognize the courts and the party is controlled by a terrorist/criminal from overseas. The PTP is guilty of massive fraud and corruption.

I think massive reform is necessary before an election and that this reform must include important steps to prevent the terrorist/criminal from controlling any political parties in the country.

I agree with you guys how about below for a start.

§ 1. Articles *** **** ****** ***** of the Constitution of the Thailand are suspended until further notice. It is therefore permissible to restrict the rights of personal freedom [habeas corpus], freedom of (opinion) expression, including the freedom of the press, the freedom to organize and assemble, the privacy of postal, telegraphic and telephonic communications. Warrants for House searches, orders for confiscations as well as restrictions on property, are also permissible beyond the legal limits otherwise prescribed.

[ianf]

In Bangkok, 167 constituency candidates have registered from 23 parties! The (68) other provinces in Thailand all favor holding an election, including the other (6) provinces in the South,

Democracy is the "Majority" voters votes dictate who is to lead Thailand after the next election.

This is based on the "one person one-vote", which is the basic principle of "Political Equality" recognized in the international community of democracies.

Should an election be rejected for the 35 million Thai's that cast votes in the 2011 Election because * (8) Southern provinces are forcefully interfering with the citizens to intimidate those voters from exercising their right to vote?

If Suthep count of (6) Million person protester attended his rally in Bangkok, not the few 100,000 estimated by the media, and he has a huge backing in the other provinces, if Thai's are in fact upset with "corruption" and corruption has been a problem in Thailand decades prior to the 2001 election of Thaksin Shinawatra. Any and all forms of corruption must be included in these reforms, including corruption and nepotism in the country that favor the rich.

It is very important to the continuation of Democracy in Thailand that the vote must be held despite the objections of the (8) provinces, because if Suthep and the Democrats are successful in stopping the wish of the majority of the country from holding an election based on the Royal decree and the Thai constitution it would spell the end of participatory democracy in Thailand, if they can do it any other group will be able to repeat the process!

Cheers

A rather naive version of democracy. Makes you laugh really.

[h90]

The elections cost a few billions (it was published somewhere, unbelievable expensive), I am sure for every spent Baht to private companies there will be kickback.

[The Fatman]

The PTP does not recognize the courts and the party is controlled by a terrorist/criminal from overseas

Mr Suthep, is worse - take my word for it. He does not want an election - he wants to be appointed and his first act would be to bring about laws prohibiting exactly what it is he is doing right now!!!! This man is worse than Hitler because Hitler won an election.

I think you will find with over 95% of the parliament that a quorum exists and the parliament is valid.

[hellodolly]

In Bangkok, 167 constituency candidates have registered from 23 parties! The (68) other provinces in Thailand all favor holding an election, including the other (6) provinces in the South,

Democracy is the "Majority" voters votes dictate who is to lead Thailand after the next election.

This is based on the "one person one-vote", which is the basic principle of "Political Equality" recognized in the international community of democracies.

Should an election be rejected for the 35 million Thai's that cast votes in the 2011 Election because * (8) Southern provinces are forcefully interfering with the citizens to intimidate those voters from exercising their right to vote?

If Suthep count of (6) Million person protester attended his rally in Bangkok, not the few 100,000 estimated by the media, and he has a huge backing in the other provinces, if Thai's are in fact upset with "corruption" and corruption has been a problem in Thailand decades prior to the 2001 election of Thaksin Shinawatra. Any and all forms of corruption must be included in these reforms, including corruption and nepotism in the country that favor the rich.

It is very important to the continuation of Democracy in Thailand that the vote must be held despite the objections of the (8) provinces, because if Suthep and the Democrats are successful in stopping the wish of the majority of the country from holding an election based on the Royal decree and the Thai constitution it would spell the end of participatory democracy in Thailand, if they can do it any other group will be able to repeat the process!

Cheers

one person one-vote"

So what does that mean 52% of the voters said they did not want Thaksin. So what good was one person one vote.?

It is time for all the Constitutional and Democracy be put on hold and a look taken at what Thailand has and what it needs. An election with no reform will just continue to prolong the problem.

As it is now to push for a vote with no reform is to just say that every thing is OK in Thailand.

It is only natural for the various parties to say they can best lead the country but when the people say what is being done is wrong it is time to listen to them. Make no mistake about it. This was started by people with no political association. It was started by people who were tired of the corruption in the government. It was well on it's way when it received the approval of the Democrats.

They tried to help the government to avoid this crisis but the house would not listen they insisted on White washing Thaksin. They set up a council to stop corruption and under it's leadership corruption increased from 65% corrupt to 67% corrupt. http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/results/

The people of Thailand deserve better. They deserve to be told the truth how much money is going into the politicians pockets billions of baht. They deserve to be given an education so they can understand that. The Education issue is one all past governments have been guilty of not providing. Most of them think of corruption as giving the BIB 200 baht to avoid a 400 baht fine. They have no idea of what is really going on at the government level.

It is time for a change like him or not Suthep is calling for what is best for Thailand. If he benefits from it so what Thailand will still be a better country. If he gets nothing for it so what Thailand will still be a better country.

Keep your eye on the ball. The ball is being a country that has a government working for all Thais no matter what their social or financial status is.

[stoneyboy]

If Farang TV members were able to stand or vote the turn out would be massive.

Edited January 2, 2014 by stoneyboy

[falangadang]

"I just read that over 28 constituencies have no registered candidates"

I wonder if that will place them in a more advantageous position than those who do have representation?

They'll have to put a stop to that as if it catches on that people are better off without party reps then they could abolish government entirely!

[thailiketoo]

Wasn't it about voting directly for legislation rather than for people or some such? I don't recall exactly and am loathe to research but I believe the assembly was all citizens who chose to attend a session and was restricted by definition of citizenship.

Well you were born a citizen or a slave. And died as such. Rule was by oligarchs. It was not a "nice" situation at all. But the actual Democracy part, was the belief that all citizens had a solemn duty to attend public Debates, and to voice their opinions. To not attend public Debates made you an "idiot" which is our word descended from the Ancient Greek word <from wiki> idiōtēs ("person lacking professional skill", "a private citizen", "individual") which was a terrible insult because you were a private citizen, rather than a citizen who was very active in the public sphere, especially public Debate.

Debate is the essence and backbone of true democracy. You can judge a failed democracy by how little Debate is held, on a public and state level. Everything else is just trimmings and frills.

REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY. A form of government where the powers of the sovereignty are delegated to a body of men, elected from time to time, who exercise them for the benefit of the whole nation.

Yunia when is your dictionary coming out? Where can we buy it?

[Ulic]

Both sides are equally corrupt. Neither side has the moral high ground. The reason to have the election is

to uphold the principles of democracy. When you vote there are two options, vote for your country or vote

for yourself. In Thailand 70% of the population believe corruption is OK as long as it benefits them.

So nobody should expect big changes until the quality of education goes up. A class on ethics every

every year after age 8 would probably be helpful. That said I understand Suthep received some of

his education abroad and it did not help with his ethics and integrity. He probably skipped those classes.

[kikoman]

In Bangkok, 167 constituency candidates have registered from 23 parties! The (68) other provinces in Thailand all favor holding an election, including the other (6) provinces in the South,

Democracy is the "Majority" voters votes dictate who is to lead Thailand after the next election.

This is based on the "one person one-vote", which is the basic principle of "Political Equality" recognized in the international community of democracies.

Should an election be rejected for the 35 million Thai's that cast votes in the 2011 Election because * (8) Southern provinces are forcefully interfering with the citizens to intimidate those voters from exercising their right to vote?

If Suthep count of (6) Million person protester attended his rally in Bangkok, not the few 100,000 estimated by the media, and he has a huge backing in the other provinces, if Thai's are in fact upset with "corruption" and corruption has been a problem in Thailand decades prior to the 2001 election of Thaksin Shinawatra. Any and all forms of corruption must be included in these reforms, including corruption and nepotism in the country that favor the rich.

It is very important to the continuation of Democracy in Thailand that the vote must be held despite the objections of the (8) provinces, because if Suthep and the Democrats are successful in stopping the wish of the majority of the country from holding an election based on the Royal decree and the Thai constitution it would spell the end of participatory democracy in Thailand, if they can do it any other group will be able to repeat the process!

Cheers

A rather naive version of democracy. Makes you laugh really.

You must be from cold war Russia, Apartheid South Africa, or Afghanistan, please enlighten me to what your "un-naive version" of democracy is. By your one-line response indicates, you know absolutely nothing about Democracy or how it functions.

If you are able too, explain your version!

Cheers

[rebelplatoon]

Not with the way it's set up:

Some people don't seem to understand why the Democrats and yellow shirts do NOT WANT elections right now. It is NOT because Suthep wants to control anything else but the WAY elections are being held. During the Mr. "T" regime the constituencies have been altered to fit the TRT party. Very large constituencies with large numbers of voters would give one party only one seat (These they changed and were Democratic strongholds) much smaller constituencies, with much fewer people were divided up in several constituencies with one seat each. This means that even when people did not vote a 100% for the TRT they would still have a "glorious victory" over the Democrats. It was all made to match the TRT.

In numbers: The TRT and Dems had respectively: 15,744,190 and 11,433,762 people vote for them. A difference in % of the population of resp. (TRT, Dems) 48.41% and 35.15%. (say 13%) This was NOT reflected in the seats in Parliament by the self dividing rule of the TRT who changed the constituencies. (TRT/ Dems) 265 seats against 159 seats or in seats 106 (!!). If this had been in the range of anything like 225 to 196 this would have been a fair and acceptable result. (the difference being about 13%) or in seats 29. Read that again: The difference in what would have been an acceptable and fair divide in seats was 29 but it became 106 !!! Spread the word on this so silly people that do not want to understand what's really going on will see that this is NOT a democratic process. This would have allowed (just an example) the Democrats to team up with some other parties and still form a Government. Besides in the opposition it would have given them lots more control.

NOW do we understand why this system is unacceptable and nothing near free and fair elections? I do not like Suthep but most certainly am not in favour of the "Shin Clan" the Chinese have ruled Thailand long enough....

Mind you, I do not agree with an interim Government and all that, unless it would be an agreed upon (by both parties) Business Government to boost the country back on the map first. But that would demand restraint, patience and understanding. Values that are the foundation of Buddhism, but are hard to be found in politricks.

[oneday]

Waste of time and money.

The cycle will continue.