Are you an Atheist/Believer?

[boomerangutang]

I came to Thailand because 98% of the people in Thailand don't believe in god. They are Buddhists. So they don't need meds in my opinion.

Most Thais think that Buddha is God. Maybe you need the meds?

No. Buddhism doesn't include any deity to be worshiped, more of a philosophy of how to live life based on a pretty scientific approach, don't take anything on faith, just try the practices and observe the results.

Siddhartha was a human teacher, albeit a very advanced soul, but not an object of worship.

Now all the pre-Buddhist, Hindu and animist practices are all mixed in Thai culture, but what I'm saying holds for Buddhism proper.

There's a wide difference between pure Buddhism and how people (who call themselves 'Buddhists') manifest. To me, the purest type of Buddhism is Zen. A proper zen temple (Zazen) won't even have a statue of a Buddha there. The Buddha himself never talked about images of himself. Thai Buddhism (Hinayana) is heavily encumbered with relic worship - so, yes, you could say Thai Buddhists believe in God. Their God is The Buddha - regardless of what they or the sutras say. Thais are also heavily steeped in talismans, fear of ghosts, metaphysics, fear of the dark, fear of the unknown. To adhere to Thai style Buddhism is to be deeply rooted in hocus pocus, from laymen all the way up to patriarch. I'm not talking about how they would describe themselves, I'm talking about observations on how they manifests (speech and action), day to day.

[sirineou]

I believe in science and nature.

I was steeped in Christianity in late teens. Read the story of the Buddha at 20, which soaked in to me like butter in to hot bread. Then lived at a yogi community for a few years where I came to love and appreciate Hinduism. I've called myself Buddhist (in the Mahayana, not the Hinayana tradition) for forty years. However, now I realize I don't need to adhere to any belief system. Nature, the sun, science, are infiniately fascinating for me. I don't need any more lectures. I can still get high as a kite just from meditating on my own. I don't need any more dogma. Incidentally, the more I see and hear about Hinayana Buddhism as it manifests in Thailand, the more I want to keep it at arm's length. There's a new Thai temple in my village, and the noise pollution they spread for Km's around is rude. They're very imposing and garish.

I agree with you on the departure of Buddhism from it's main core, but unfortunately such is the result in any endeavour humans get involved in,

and it is wonderful that you have achieved enlightenment , But isn't that the ultimate goal Buddhism?

would you have gotten there without Buddhism?

[Neeranam]

...I think you are evaluating Thai behavior through Western eyes. They have no concept of god. It is a concept of luck or spirits; more of an animist concept than a dessert religions concept. They offer food and drink and incense to a spirit or ancestor not a single divine creator. You might say ghosts instead of god. Good and bad spirits are zipping all over Thailand but they don't bother Farang. The Farang ghosts don't come to Thailand because they don't like garlic. This was explained to me by a Thai person.

Polytheists are theists too.

I didn't know they didn't like garlic.

That's why there are more ghosts in Scotland than Italy or France.

The real reasons that farang ghosts don't come to Thailand is because they can't use airplanes.

[thailiketoo]

I believe in science and nature.

I was steeped in Christianity in late teens. Read the story of the Buddha at 20, which soaked in to me like butter in to hot bread. Then lived at a yogi community for a few years where I came to love and appreciate Hinduism. I've called myself Buddhist (in the Mahayana, not the Hinayana tradition) for forty years. However, now I realize I don't need to adhere to any belief system. Nature, the sun, science, are infiniately fascinating for me. I don't need any more lectures. I can still get high as a kite just from meditating on my own. I don't need any more dogma. Incidentally, the more I see and hear about Hinayana Buddhism as it manifests in Thailand, the more I want to keep it at arm's length. There's a new Thai temple in my village, and the noise pollution they spread for Km's around is rude. They're very imposing and garish.

You wrote, "There's a new Thai temple in my village, and the noise pollution they spread for Km's around is rude."

What is the third noble truth? I know I had it somewhere. I know it was around here, now where did it go?

Oh BTW congrats on your enlightenment.

Now where was that third........

[sirineou]

...I think you are evaluating Thai behavior through Western eyes. They have no concept of god. It is a concept of luck or spirits; more of an animist concept than a dessert religions concept. They offer food and drink and incense to a spirit or ancestor not a single divine creator. You might say ghosts instead of god. Good and bad spirits are zipping all over Thailand but they don't bother Farang. The Farang ghosts don't come to Thailand because they don't like garlic. This was explained to me by a Thai person.

Polytheists are theists too.

I didn't know they didn't like garlic.

That's why there are more ghosts in Scotland than Italy or France.

The real reasons that farang ghosts don't come to Thailand is because they can't use airplanes.

And that's where you are wrong my friend

[StreetCowboy]

I believe in science and nature.

I was steeped in Christianity in late teens. Read the story of the Buddha at 20, which soaked in to me like butter in to hot bread. Then lived at a yogi community for a few years where I came to love and appreciate Hinduism. I've called myself Buddhist (in the Mahayana, not the Hinayana tradition) for forty years. However, now I realize I don't need to adhere to any belief system. Nature, the sun, science, are infiniately fascinating for me. I don't need any more lectures. I can still get high as a kite just from meditating on my own. I don't need any more dogma. Incidentally, the more I see and hear about Hinayana Buddhism as it manifests in Thailand, the more I want to keep it at arm's length. There's a new Thai temple in my village, and the noise pollution they spread for Km's around is rude. They're very imposing and garish.

You wrote, "There's a new Thai temple in my village, and the noise pollution they spread for Km's around is rude."

What is the third noble truth? I know I had it somewhere. I know it was around here, now where did it go?

Oh BTW congrats on your enlightenment.

Now where was that third........

Who said he was enlightened?

I think he said he was happy within himself, but obviously he still seems to have some trials and tribulations to overcome and rise above with this mortal coil - I am sure that we all do.

I get annoyed at the noise generated by my neighbours' religious observances, and also by the haphazard parking of people attending church service next door to the Duke and Duchess pub, but even if you complain, no one listens, so you might as well not bother

SC

[Neeranam]

I believe in science and nature.

I was steeped in Christianity in late teens. Read the story of the Buddha at 20, which soaked in to me like butter in to hot bread. Then lived at a yogi community for a few years where I came to love and appreciate Hinduism. I've called myself Buddhist (in the Mahayana, not the Hinayana tradition) for forty years. However, now I realize I don't need to adhere to any belief system. Nature, the sun, science, are infiniately fascinating for me. I don't need any more lectures. I can still get high as a kite just from meditating on my own. I don't need any more dogma. Incidentally, the more I see and hear about Hinayana Buddhism as it manifests in Thailand, the more I want to keep it at arm's length. There's a new Thai temple in my village, and the noise pollution they spread for Km's around is rude. They're very imposing and garish.

Firstly, The Buddhsim practised in Thailand is Theravada which is different to Hinayana. Hinayana is rather derogatory IMHO, meaning the lesser type compared to Mahayana.

They are very different, I spent a few months in India studying Mahayana Buddhism.

There were things I didn't particularly like about Mahayana practices in the community but I never criticized them as those more enlightened that I never and I was a guest.

I'd say Mahayana was more garish - all those illustrations of hell and all the tantric stuff I saw in the Tibetean Mahayana. Also all the different Gods.

Edited January 18, 2014 by Neeranam

[thailiketoo]

I believe in science and nature.

I was steeped in Christianity in late teens. Read the story of the Buddha at 20, which soaked in to me like butter in to hot bread. Then lived at a yogi community for a few years where I came to love and appreciate Hinduism. I've called myself Buddhist (in the Mahayana, not the Hinayana tradition) for forty years. However, now I realize I don't need to adhere to any belief system. Nature, the sun, science, are infiniately fascinating for me. I don't need any more lectures. I can still get high as a kite just from meditating on my own. I don't need any more dogma. Incidentally, the more I see and hear about Hinayana Buddhism as it manifests in Thailand, the more I want to keep it at arm's length. There's a new Thai temple in my village, and the noise pollution they spread for Km's around is rude. They're very imposing and garish.

You wrote, "There's a new Thai temple in my village, and the noise pollution they spread for Km's around is rude."

What is the third noble truth? I know I had it somewhere. I know it was around here, now where did it go?

Oh BTW congrats on your enlightenment.

Now where was that third........

Who said he was enlightened?

I think he said he was happy within himself, but obviously he still seems to have some trials and tribulations to overcome and rise above with this mortal coil - I am sure that we all do.

I get annoyed at the noise generated by my neighbours' religious observances, and also by the haphazard parking of people attending church service next door to the Duke and Duchess pub, but even if you complain, no one listens, so you might as well not bother

SC

You wrote, "Who said he was enlightened?" Sirineou post #843

[StreetCowboy]

I believe in science and nature.

I was steeped in Christianity in late teens. Read the story of the Buddha at 20, which soaked in to me like butter in to hot bread. Then lived at a yogi community for a few years where I came to love and appreciate Hinduism. I've called myself Buddhist (in the Mahayana, not the Hinayana tradition) for forty years. However, now I realize I don't need to adhere to any belief system. Nature, the sun, science, are infiniately fascinating for me. I don't need any more lectures. I can still get high as a kite just from meditating on my own. I don't need any more dogma. Incidentally, the more I see and hear about Hinayana Buddhism as it manifests in Thailand, the more I want to keep it at arm's length. There's a new Thai temple in my village, and the noise pollution they spread for Km's around is rude. They're very imposing and garish.

You wrote, "There's a new Thai temple in my village, and the noise pollution they spread for Km's around is rude."

What is the third noble truth? I know I had it somewhere. I know it was around here, now where did it go?

Oh BTW congrats on your enlightenment.

Now where was that third........

Who said he was enlightened?

I think he said he was happy within himself, but obviously he still seems to have some trials and tribulations to overcome and rise above with this mortal coil - I am sure that we all do.

I get annoyed at the noise generated by my neighbours' religious observances, and also by the haphazard parking of people attending church service next door to the Duke and Duchess pub, but even if you complain, no one listens, so you might as well not bother

SC

You wrote, "Who said he was enlightened?" Sirineou post #843

I am not sure that I have a great deal of faith in his spiritual wisdom and judgement regarding who is, or is not, truely enlightened.

SC

Edited January 18, 2014 by StreetCowboy

[sirineou]

I believe in science and nature.

I was steeped in Christianity in late teens. Read the story of the Buddha at 20, which soaked in to me like butter in to hot bread. Then lived at a yogi community for a few years where I came to love and appreciate Hinduism. I've called myself Buddhist (in the Mahayana, not the Hinayana tradition) for forty years. However, now I realize I don't need to adhere to any belief system. Nature, the sun, science, are infiniately fascinating for me. I don't need any more lectures. I can still get high as a kite just from meditating on my own. I don't need any more dogma. Incidentally, the more I see and hear about Hinayana Buddhism as it manifests in Thailand, the more I want to keep it at arm's length. There's a new Thai temple in my village, and the noise pollution they spread for Km's around is rude. They're very imposing and garish.

You wrote, "There's a new Thai temple in my village, and the noise pollution they spread for Km's around is rude."

What is the third noble truth? I know I had it somewhere. I know it was around here, now where did it go?

Oh BTW congrats on your enlightenment.

Now where was that third........

Who said he was enlightened?

I think he said he was happy within himself, but obviously he still seems to have some trials and tribulations to overcome and rise above with this mortal coil - I am sure that we all do.

I get annoyed at the noise generated by my neighbours' religious observances, and also by the haphazard parking of people attending church service next door to the Duke and Duchess pub, but even if you complain, no one listens, so you might as well not bother

SC

You wrote, "Who said he was enlightened?" Sirineou post #843

And if I say it, it must be so

[thailiketoo]

You wrote, "There's a new Thai temple in my village, and the noise pollution they spread for Km's around is rude."

What is the third noble truth? I know I had it somewhere. I know it was around here, now where did it go?

Oh BTW congrats on your enlightenment.

Now where was that third........

Who said he was enlightened?

I think he said he was happy within himself, but obviously he still seems to have some trials and tribulations to overcome and rise above with this mortal coil - I am sure that we all do.

I get annoyed at the noise generated by my neighbours' religious observances, and also by the haphazard parking of people attending church service next door to the Duke and Duchess pub, but even if you complain, no one listens, so you might as well not bother

SC

You wrote, "Who said he was enlightened?" Sirineou post #843

I wouldn't rely on him for financial advice, and I am not sure that I have a great deal of faith in his spiritual wisdom either

He seems OK to me. For spiritual wisdom that is. I mean what's the choice? You are obviously not there. Aren't you still hung up on creator myths?

[StreetCowboy]

...You wrote, "Who said he was enlightened?" Sirineou post #843

I wouldn't rely on him for financial advice, and I am not sure that I have a great deal of faith in his spiritual wisdom either

He seems OK to me. For spiritual wisdom that is. I mean what's the choice? You are obviously not there. Aren't you still hung up on creator myths?

Well, you follow whomever you choose. Personally, I prefer to make up my own mind.

SC

[thailiketoo]

...You wrote, "Who said he was enlightened?" Sirineou post #843

I wouldn't rely on him for financial advice, and I am not sure that I have a great deal of faith in his spiritual wisdom either

He seems OK to me. For spiritual wisdom that is. I mean what's the choice? You are obviously not there. Aren't you still hung up on creator myths?

Well, you follow whomever you choose. Personally, I prefer to make up my own mind.

SC

I tried to tell that lady up there I was god because my dog thought so but she wasn't having any of it. I sure hope the guy is enlightened after 40 years of practice, I was good for 40 days and 40 nights then I pooped out and went and had a beer.

I guess we should ask him. If you are reading this Mr (I get high when I meditate man) have you reached enlightenment like sirineou says or not like Cowboy contends?

Edited January 18, 2014 by thailiketoo

[sirineou]

I believe in science and nature.

I was steeped in Christianity in late teens. Read the story of the Buddha at 20, which soaked in to me like butter in to hot bread. Then lived at a yogi community for a few years where I came to love and appreciate Hinduism. I've called myself Buddhist (in the Mahayana, not the Hinayana tradition) for forty years. However, now I realize I don't need to adhere to any belief system. Nature, the sun, science, are infiniately fascinating for me. I don't need any more lectures. I can still get high as a kite just from meditating on my own. I don't need any more dogma. Incidentally, the more I see and hear about Hinayana Buddhism as it manifests in Thailand, the more I want to keep it at arm's length. There's a new Thai temple in my village, and the noise pollution they spread for Km's around is rude. They're very imposing and garish.

I agree with you on the departure of Buddhism from it's main core, but unfortunately such is the result in any endeavour humans get involved in,

and it is wonderful that you have achieved enlightenment , But isn't that the ultimate goal Buddhism?

would you have gotten there without Buddhism?

A little tongue in Cheek reply on my part that missed it's mark

I should have said achieved a degree of enlightenment, I am sure anyone that has achieved enlightenment would not be posting in this forum

So a Buddhist walks up to a Hot dog vendor and says

Make me one with everything

pays with a twenty dollar bill and waits for his change

But the vendor does not give him any change

Where is my change asks the Buddhist

to which the vendor replies

Change come from within

Boomerangutang is right to look with in him self for enlightenment, after all he is the only one who truly exists, everything else is a construct of his imagination. as he is a construct of my imagination,

I imagined him enlighten . or partially enlightened, but only he knows what he is.

I only know what my limited senses convey to me.

[sirineou]

I've called myself Buddhist (in the Mahayana, not the Hinayana tradition) for forty years. .

Neither the Mahayana nor the Hinayana traditions offer the true path to enlightenment

Enlightenment can best be achieved by following the Thai visa forum threefold path

first you must achieve 3,000 or more posts

then you must become a holy moderator

and only upon transcending to Global moderation can you achieve Nirvana.

Now you must repeat the following Mantra

"Try to snatch this argument from my post reply grasshopper

555555, haaaa you can't

you are an idiot "

If you repeat this mantra 3,000 times you will complete the first portion of the three fold path towards TVF nirvana

[notmyself]

every one is a believer, no one goes through life in utter disbelief doubting everything,

The problem is how you form your beliefs

do you do it based on supporting evidence or do you do it based on faith.

I am afraid the word has being usurped by the organised religion community and now has loaded connotations,

Hence the title of this thread.

our beliefs are based on evidence, but since our knowledge is limited so are our beliefs tempered by the limitations of our knowledge, as our knowledge increases we adjust our beliefs accordingly

when we were children be believed in a lot of things, now we know better.

incremental advancements in knowledge adjust our beliefs incrementally

IMHO I don't believe we will ever know all there is to know, so there will always be room for adjustment in our beliefs.

Dogmatic organised or even disorganised religion attempts to short circuit this process of rational development of beliefs , and replace it with faith.

I would not myself have worded it in that way but agree with what you say nevertheless.

We all have beliefs because we have to have them in order to consider the future. I cannot prove that the Sun will rise in a few hours time but I have every reason to believe it will do so because of other factors (read PROOF) such as it has done do throughout my entire life and that of others. 'faith' is a subset of belief in that it is specifically a belief without reason.

Those of a theistic bent simply don't understand the difference between belief and faith and for the most part as you can see on this thread any understanding what 'atheist' or 'atheism' means.

Someone says that an intervening entity which they call a god exists which makes them a theist. I say I do not believe what they say so am an atheist. I do not say there IS no entity because I cannot prove there is not one but I say I do not believe your claim that there is one. Hence Colin, Russell's teapot et al. This whole BS idea comes directly from a theist's mind in that they cannot fathom how someone cannot have some form of irrational belief.... so you believe in nothing they say. This, my dear friends, is what theistic belief brings you.

[RandomSand]

Good job this thread isn't about Jesus.

[notmyself]

Good job this thread isn't about Jesus.

That would be off topic.

Tell you what though.... Some of the posts on this topic have been exceedingly well argued/ presented. Kudos to fellow members.

[sirineou]

Good job this thread isn't about Jesus.

Dont even go there

Nice guy Great hair!!

I am sure he is turning over in his grave when he hears what people do in his name.

[sirineou]

Sorry duplicate post

So let's use this opportunity for a brief musical interlude.

Edited January 18, 2014 by sirineou

[drx13]

On a personal note I was "educated" as a Catholic and as early as 10 years old saw how ridiculous the whole concept was

Awesome. Must be amazing to be this wise. Surely you must have published some sort of pamphlet by age 11 exposing the whole religious thing as a scam aimed at manipulating the feeble minded? Good thing you saw right through it!

Yes, thank you.Same as Richard Dawkins although he was 11 years old.and at a Protestant school.

Limbo ? Purgatory ? Only Catholics allowed in Heaven, Confess all your sins and they are all forgiven for a few Hail Marys, Extreme Unction ? Nowadays some priests using the confessional to probe the sexuality of potential victims. I imagine even younger children are now belying Augustine's "Give me the child and I will give you the man"

I worked on the LHC and the topic of this thread was rarely mentioned, if it was, it was in reference to the "God Helmet" used in neuroscience which indicated different brain functions in believers. Even Professor Richard Dawkins was tested.

Edited January 18, 2014 by drx13

[notmyself]

If the thread degenerates into just vids without any real argument or position to speak of then it would be a crying shame though that would be IMO.

Without going back to a couple of earlier posts regarding inculcation I can at least add this.....

Still, nothing to speak of regarding it. Fellow member Wym mentioned it but otherwise nothing at all.

[boomerangutang]

I believe in science and nature.

I was steeped in Christianity in late teens. Read the story of the Buddha at 20, which soaked in to me like butter in to hot bread. Then lived at a yogi community for a few years where I came to love and appreciate Hinduism. I've called myself Buddhist (in the Mahayana, not the Hinayana tradition) for forty years. However, now I realize I don't need to adhere to any belief system. Nature, the sun, science, are infiniately fascinating for me. I don't need any more lectures. I can still get high as a kite just from meditating on my own. I don't need any more dogma. Incidentally, the more I see and hear about Hinayana Buddhism as it manifests in Thailand, the more I want to keep it at arm's length. There's a new Thai temple in my village, and the noise pollution they spread for Km's around is rude. They're very imposing and garish.

I agree with you on the departure of Buddhism from it's main core, but unfortunately such is the result in any endeavour humans get involved in,and it is wonderful that you have achieved enlightenment , But isn't that the ultimate goal Buddhism? would you have gotten there without Buddhism?

I didn't use the word 'enlightened' - I said 'high as a kite.' Not necessarily synonymous. Buddhism has helped with my spiritual development. However, it's debatable whether it's helped more than R&R, nature, and mind-expanding drugs.

[boomerangutang]

I believe in science and nature.

I was steeped in Christianity in late teens. Read the story of the Buddha at 20, which soaked in to me like butter in to hot bread. Then lived at a yogi community for a few years where I came to love and appreciate Hinduism. I've called myself Buddhist (in the Mahayana, not the Hinayana tradition) for forty years. However, now I realize I don't need to adhere to any belief system. Nature, the sun, science, are infiniately fascinating for me. I don't need any more lectures. I can still get high as a kite just from meditating on my own. I don't need any more dogma. Incidentally, the more I see and hear about Hinayana Buddhism as it manifests in Thailand, the more I want to keep it at arm's length. There's a new Thai temple in my village, and the noise pollution they spread for Km's around is rude. They're very imposing and garish.

Firstly, The Buddhsim practised in Thailand is Theravada which is different to Hinayana. Hinayana is rather derogatory IMHO, meaning the lesser type compared to Mahayana. They are very different, I spent a few months in India studying Mahayana Buddhism.

There were things I didn't particularly like about Mahayana practices in the community but I never criticized them as those more enlightened that I never and I was a guest. I'd say Mahayana was more garish - all those illustrations of hell and all the tantric stuff I saw in the Tibetean Mahayana. Also all the different Gods.

Both major types of Buddhism mentioned are rife with add-ons. Wherever religion goes, it embraces certain aspects of whatever belief-systems preceded it. Same with Christianity (allowing hula dances in Hawaii, for example). It's the nature of religion, like any organized belief system, to become more orthodox as time slides by. Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha wouldn't recognize, and certainly wouldn't approve of the grotesque manifestations of Christianity, Islam and Buddhism that have developed since their respective demises.

I'm at a stage where I generally accept and even revel in all the weird manifestations of religious belief systems - in a similar way that I might revel in a Childrens' carnival. Where I draw the line, is where there is harm done. I'm even more concerned about harm to the environment (and other species) - than harm done to people. Religions do a lot of harm.

[sirineou]

I believe in science and nature.

I was steeped in Christianity in late teens. Read the story of the Buddha at 20, which soaked in to me like butter in to hot bread. Then lived at a yogi community for a few years where I came to love and appreciate Hinduism. I've called myself Buddhist (in the Mahayana, not the Hinayana tradition) for forty years. However, now I realize I don't need to adhere to any belief system. Nature, the sun, science, are infiniately fascinating for me. I don't need any more lectures. I can still get high as a kite just from meditating on my own. I don't need any more dogma. Incidentally, the more I see and hear about Hinayana Buddhism as it manifests in Thailand, the more I want to keep it at arm's length. There's a new Thai temple in my village, and the noise pollution they spread for Km's around is rude. They're very imposing and garish.

I agree with you on the departure of Buddhism from it's main core, but unfortunately such is the result in any endeavour humans get involved in,and it is wonderful that you have achieved enlightenment , But isn't that the ultimate goal Buddhism? would you have gotten there without Buddhism?

I didn't use the word 'enlightened' - I said 'high as a kite.' Not necessarily synonymous. Buddhism has helped with my spiritual development. However, it's debatable whether it's helped more than R&R, nature, and mind-expanding drugs.

No you didn't , I did, I should had said "a level of enlightenment" but I didn't

Now in my next life I shall come back as a lowly bug

and it's all your fault How do you feel about that..

while you were sleeping, we have being busy little beavers,

If you read further on the thread you will see that I clear this point up

or attempt to

and also attempt a bit of humor

[drx13]

Priest to dying atheist, "Will you not renounce the devil ?"

Atheist, "Now is not the time to be making new enemies"

Edited January 19, 2014 by drx13

[drx13]

There are many genuine scientific studies on the efficacy of prayer. One I particularly recall was prayers for the terminally ill.

The usual scientific methods were applied, most members in this thread don't need chapter and verse and lecture on stats.

The outcome was that, those being prayed for, and knew it, died sooner. (Of course all died eventually).

The relgious dismissed the study, of course they would have jumped all over it, if it found anything +ve.

They could have argued that they were given a quicker trip to heaven and reduced suffering but never thought of it.

MyThesis on the "Effectiveness of Irrigation of the Common Cabbage with Holy Water"..also found no benefits, but did not

engender much interest.

BTW Love the vids, The Monty Python one sent Malcolm Muggeridge into an apoplexy, campaigning that children never be allowed to see it (Debate with a bemused "Monty")

.

Edited January 19, 2014 by drx13

[sirineou]

There are many genuine scientific studies on the efficacy of prayer. One I particularly recall was prayers for the terminally ill.

The usual scientific methods were applied, most members in this thread don't need chapter and verse and lecture on stats.

The outcome was that, those being prayed for, and knew it, died sooner. (Of course all died eventually).

The relgious dismissed the study, of course they would have jumped all over it, if it found anything +ve.

They could have argued that they were given a quicker trip to heaven and reduced suffering but never thought of it.

MyThesis on the "Effectiveness of Irrigation of the Common Cabbage with Holy Water"..also found no benefits, but did not

engender much interest.

BTW Love the vids, The Monty Python one sent Malcolm Muggeridge into an apoplexy, campaigning that children never be allowed to see it (Debate with a bemused "Monty")

.

I am afraid you are preaching to the choir ,

I believe we have effectively chased the religious crowd away, they have mostly retreated ti the capitol punishment thread in the news section, where they are arguing that executing criminals is preferable to long term incarceration because it saves money

[Dimpys Dad]

There are many genuine scientific studies on the efficacy of prayer. One I particularly recall was prayers for the terminally ill.

The usual scientific methods were applied, most members in this thread don't need chapter and verse and lecture on stats.

The outcome was that, those being prayed for, and knew it, died sooner. (Of course all died eventually).

The relgious dismissed the study, of course they would have jumped all over it, if it found anything +ve.

They could have argued that they were given a quicker trip to heaven and reduced suffering but never thought of it.

MyThesis on the "Effectiveness of Irrigation of the Common Cabbage with Holy Water"..also found no benefits, but did not

engender much interest.

BTW Love the vids, The Monty Python one sent Malcolm Muggeridge into an apoplexy, campaigning that children never be allowed to see it (Debate with a bemused "Monty")

.

I am afraid you are preaching to the choir ,

I believe we have effectively chased the religious crowd away, they have mostly retreated ti the capitol punishment thread in the news section, where they are arguing that executing criminals is preferable to long term incarceration because it saves money

"effectively chased the religious crowd away"....not entirely. Some of us are still listening and thinking.

You cannot defeat an opponent with sarcasm and ridicule. Actually, the serious among us (both sides I presume) get tired of responding to such. There are deeper meanings and substance in the spiritual world than what has been parodied herein about religions and their faithful. Religion (of any kind) offers explanations and allows those who seek deeper meanings to search and hope. What is the substance of life? It is difficult for a spiritual seeker to accept that everything can be explained with a mathematical formula, a test tube and scientific analysis, especially when those things can measure nothing related to the spirit of man. That is because they are two separate and distinct realms.

It appears that by the comment, efforts were designed and intended to get rid of us. That's too bad. Keep the discourse substantive and debate will continue. Have we said everything there is to be said about Atheists vs Believers?

[cashpower]

. Religion (of any kind) offers explanations

What does it "explain", precisely? I think it has been the scourge of civilization for the past 5000 or so years. A tool to enslave the weak and deluded and to empower the ruling elite.

There is no place for religious belief in a truly modern society, and the everchanging "gods" over the millenia and across cultural divides are more proof that it is a ridiculous belief.

Supporters of any "religion" share responsibility for the atrocities committed under the name of any other religion because they all promote the same delusional concept in different garb.

Find a clue.