Are you an Atheist/Believer?

[StreetCowboy]

. Religion (of any kind) offers explanations

What does it "explain", precisely? I think it has been the scourge of civilization for the past 5000 or so years. A tool to enslave the weak and deluded and to empower the ruling elite.

There is no place for religious belief in a truly modern society, and the everchanging "gods" over the millenia and across cultural divides are more proof that it is a ridiculous belief.

Supporters of any "religion" share responsibility for the atrocities committed under the name of any other religion because they all promote the same delusional concept in different garb.

Find a clue.

I don't see the same level of bile and spleen from those on the other side.

SC

[cashpower]

Maybe you should look a little deeper then. We can start with the Inquisition and go from there if you like. Right up to catholic priests and back to the Aztecs. Thousands of years of atrocities committed in the name of one "god" or another. Foolish and dangerous nonsense all of it.

[StreetCowboy]

Maybe you should look a little deeper then. We can start with the Inquisition and go from there if you like. Right up to catholic priests and back to the Aztecs. Thousands of years of atrocities committed in the name of one "god" or another. Foolish and dangerous nonsense all of it.

All before my time. If you're going to drag up things from the Aztecs, that's a level of billious resentment that the Reverend Ian Paisley would find hard to match.

I was really meaning on this specific thread.

SC

[cashpower]

Yes, criticism of the god delusion should be confined to the context of whoever is present at a particular debate.

[Dimpys Dad]

. Religion (of any kind) offers explanations

What does it "explain", precisely? I think it has been the scourge of civilization for the past 5000 or so years. A tool to enslave the weak and deluded and to empower the ruling elite.

There is no place for religious belief in a truly modern society, and the everchanging "gods" over the millenia and across cultural divides are more proof that it is a ridiculous belief.

Supporters of any "religion" share responsibility for the atrocities committed under the name of any other religion because they all promote the same delusional concept in different garb.

Find a clue.

I didn't say the explanations were complete. I didn't say they were acceptable to everyone's mind. But everything has an explanation, or many explanations, some compatible with each other and some contradictory. Ask a question, get an explanation, right?

Are religions the only cause of man's inhumanity to man? Do you likewise condemn all secular devastations such as communism, despotism, tyranny? Why do religions bear the brunt of condemnations for wars/atrocities more so than brutalities committed by atheists?

[sirineou]

I am afraid you are preaching to the choir ,

I believe we have effectively chased the religious crowd away, they have mostly retreated ti the capitol punishment thread in the news section, where they are arguing that executing criminals is preferable to long term incarceration because it saves money

"effectively chased the religious crowd away"....not entirely. Some of us are still listening and thinking.

You cannot defeat an opponent with sarcasm and ridicule. Actually, the serious among us (both sides I presume) get tired of responding to such. There are deeper meanings and substance in the spiritual world than what has been parodied herein about religions and their faithful. Religion (of any kind) offers explanations and allows those who seek deeper meanings to search and hope. What is the substance of life? It is difficult for a spiritual seeker to accept that everything can be explained with a mathematical formula, a test tube and scientific analysis, especially when those things can measure nothing related to the spirit of man. That is because they are two separate and distinct realms.

It appears that by the comment, efforts were designed and intended to get rid of us. That's too bad. Keep the discourse substantive and debate will continue. Have we said everything there is to be said about Atheists vs Believers?

"effectively chased the religious crowd away"....not entirely. Some of us are still listening and thinking."

"Listening" , obviously. "thinking" remains to be seen

but not responding, so not in essence, but effectively chased away

"You cannot defeat an opponent with sarcasm and ridicule."

Sure I can, and I have many times, it is a time honored debating technique.

"Actually, the serious among us (both sides I presume) get tired of responding to such."

Those that are tired of ridicule should not make ridiculous statements

"There are deeper meanings and substance in the spiritual world than what has been parodied herein about religions and their faithful."

Please fill us in,

"Religion (of any kind) offers explanations and allows those who seek deeper meanings to search and hope. What is the substance of life?"

explanations that allow people to withdraw from reality and seek refuge in wishful thinking.

"It is difficult for a spiritual seeker to accept that everything can be explained with a mathematical formula, a test tube and scientific analysis, especially when those things can measure nothing related to the spirit of man. That is because they are two separate and distinct realms."

Reality is a difficult thing to accept

"It appears that by the comment, efforts were designed and intended to get rid of us. That's too bad. Keep the discourse substantive and debate will continue. Have we said everything there is to be said about Atheists vs Believers?"

Not at all,

No intelligent design here,

We like you here, and we wish you come back.

Perhaps maybe when you are all done thinking.

[cashpower]

Of course religion is not the only cause of atrocities. Just the overwhelming and most significant cause.

The reason for the condemnation is the fact that atrocities committed under the name of religion (delusion) were/are avoidable.

[canman]

Just because we can't prove either; doesn't mean one is true and the other false.

?

It a binary question. There either is or there is not

Maybe not. Possibly there is a Schrodinger's cat type of god. At the end he only exists for those who look?

[sirineou]

. Religion (of any kind) offers explanations

What does it "explain", precisely? I think it has been the scourge of civilization for the past 5000 or so years. A tool to enslave the weak and deluded and to empower the ruling elite.

There is no place for religious belief in a truly modern society, and the everchanging "gods" over the millenia and across cultural divides are more proof that it is a ridiculous belief.

Supporters of any "religion" share responsibility for the atrocities committed under the name of any other religion because they all promote the same delusional concept in different garb.

Find a clue.

I didn't say the explanations were complete. I didn't say they were acceptable to everyone's mind. But everything has an explanation, or many explanations, some compatible with each other and some contradictory. Ask a question, get an explanation, right?

Are religions the only cause of man's inhumanity to man? Do you likewise condemn all secular devastations such as communism, despotism, tyranny? Why do religions bear the brunt of condemnations for wars/atrocities more so than brutalities committed by atheists?

does everything have more than one explanation?

please please provide some examples

Is religion the only cause of mans inhumanity to man? NO not by a long shot, but a strong competitor.

Do we condemn tyranny under totalitarian systems? Very strongly

"Why do religions bear the brunt of condemnations for wars/atrocities more so than brutalities committed by atheists?"

In this thread because this is a thread about religion.

In general because Atrocities motivated by religion , were motivated by religion

Where crimes committed by Atheists (Non religious people) was not motivated by their Non religiosity.

as there are many crimes committed daily by religious people that are not motivated by their religion, and we don't blame religion for those.

If you can name a crime committed by an Atheist because of their Atheism I would be the first to condemn it .

Edited January 19, 2014 by sirineou

[sirineou]

Just because we can't prove either; doesn't mean one is true and the other false.

?

It a binary question. There either is or there is not

Maybe not. Possibly there is a was a type of god. At the end he only exists for those who look?

or doesn't exist for those who look,

Perhaps the result is affected by how good you look

[IMA_FARANG]

Back in the days there were two groups in Liverpool (I believe) called the Mods and the Rockers.

They were supposed enemies.

John Lennon was asked by a (brainless) reporter the question, "Are you a Mod or a Rocker?"

John's answer was, "None of them, I'm, a Mocker".

I don't see that answer in your (brainless) poll .... but if it is those two choices then I say like Lennon did,

"None of them, I'm a Mocker."

[Dimpys Dad]

I am afraid you are preaching to the choir ,

I believe we have effectively chased the religious crowd away, they have mostly retreated ti the capitol punishment thread in the news section, where they are arguing that executing criminals is preferable to long term incarceration because it saves money

"effectively chased the religious crowd away"....not entirely. Some of us are still listening and thinking.

You cannot defeat an opponent with sarcasm and ridicule. Actually, the serious among us (both sides I presume) get tired of responding to such. There are deeper meanings and substance in the spiritual world than what has been parodied herein about religions and their faithful. Religion (of any kind) offers explanations and allows those who seek deeper meanings to search and hope. What is the substance of life? It is difficult for a spiritual seeker to accept that everything can be explained with a mathematical formula, a test tube and scientific analysis, especially when those things can measure nothing related to the spirit of man. That is because they are two separate and distinct realms.

It appears that by the comment, efforts were designed and intended to get rid of us. That's too bad. Keep the discourse substantive and debate will continue. Have we said everything there is to be said about Atheists vs Believers?

"effectively chased the religious crowd away"....not entirely. Some of us are still listening and thinking."

"Listening" , obviously. "thinking" remains to be seen

but not responding, so not in essence, but effectively chased away

"You cannot defeat an opponent with sarcasm and ridicule."

Sure I can, and I have many times, it is a time honored debating technique.

"Actually, the serious among us (both sides I presume) get tired of responding to such."

Those that are tired of ridicule should not make ridiculous statements

"There are deeper meanings and substance in the spiritual world than what has been parodied herein about religions and their faithful."

Please fill us in,

"Religion (of any kind) offers explanations and allows those who seek deeper meanings to search and hope. What is the substance of life?"

explanations that allow people to withdraw from reality and seek refuge in wishful thinking.

"It is difficult for a spiritual seeker to accept that everything can be explained with a mathematical formula, a test tube and scientific analysis, especially when those things can measure nothing related to the spirit of man. That is because they are two separate and distinct realms."

Reality is a difficult thing to accept

"It appears that by the comment, efforts were designed and intended to get rid of us. That's too bad. Keep the discourse substantive and debate will continue. Have we said everything there is to be said about Atheists vs Believers?"

Not at all,

No intelligent design here,

We like you here, and we wish you come back.

Perhaps maybe when you are all done thinking.

Yes still here, glad you like us. Hopefully will never be done thinking. I'm sorry you don't yet realize we think.

"There are deeper meanings and substance in the spiritual world than what has been parodied herein about religions and their faithful."

Please fill us in,

I don't have all the answers because I am a seeker and, yes, a thinker. Not a gunslinger

Glad you asked: Jesus said he was the way, the truth and the life.

The way - follow him, salvation in eternity depends on him

The truth - he didn't lie to us

The life - he lives with God, he is God

These are pretty simple right? Then why do people have such a hard time with it? I "think" it is because they don't want to give up themselves - one verse says "Be still and know that I am God".

Don't know a lot about what Buddha taught but in practice as I understand Buddhism, it is supposed to lead one to inner peace and peace toward everything around you.

In the Psalms it says to "Turn from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it". Seems compatible to me.

In John, Jesus says "Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid." He isn't giving us turmoil. Peace is from God, turmoil is from this world.

You said: "It is difficult for a spiritual seeker to accept that everything can be explained with a mathematical formula, a test tube and scientific analysis, especially when those things can measure nothing related to the spirit of man. That is because they are two separate and distinct realms."

Reality is a difficult thing to accept

So is the spiritual realm, evidently.

Thanks sirineou. We shall carry on with pleasure.

[cashpower]

Glad you asked: Jesus said he was the way, the truth and the life.

The way - follow him, salvation in eternity depends on him

The truth - he didn't lie to us

The life - he lives with God, he is God

These are pretty simple right? Then why do people have such a hard time with it? I "think" it is because they don't want to give up themselves - one verse says "Be still and know that I am God".

oh what rubbish. jesus didnt say that at all. some nutjob said it 1500 years later after 1500 years of Chinese whispers and distortion.

Across the millenia mankind has followed thousands of religions and worshipped tens of thousands of "gods". Yet for all those gods in all those years you have proof of none. nothing. nada.

just blind faith in the various claims made by ignorant charlatans with no understanding of science.

wake up and smell the bullshit

[Dimpys Dad]

Glad you asked: Jesus said he was the way, the truth and the life.

The way - follow him, salvation in eternity depends on him

The truth - he didn't lie to us

The life - he lives with God, he is God

These are pretty simple right? Then why do people have such a hard time with it? I "think" it is because they don't want to give up themselves - one verse says "Be still and know that I am God".

oh what rubbish. jesus didnt say that at all. some nutjob said it 1500 years later after 1500 years of Chinese whispers and distortion.

Across the millenia mankind has followed thousands of religions and worshipped tens of thousands of "gods". Yet for all those gods in all those years you have proof of none. nothing. nada.

just blind faith in the various claims made by ignorant charlatans with no understanding of science.

wake up and smell the bullshit

John, a contemporary and one of the apostles who was with Jesus, wrote down what he said.

[cashpower]

John, a contemporary and one of the apostles who was with Jesus, wrote down what he said.

And you state this with full knowledge of the fact that no person/scientist/archaeologist has ever been able to confirm and/or prove that the "gospel of john" was written by the "apostle john"?

you are either a liar or a fool.

and if you believe these god fairytales you are already a fool

[wym]

Of course religion is not the only cause of atrocities. Just the overwhelming and most significant cause.

The reason for the condemnation is the fact that atrocities committed under the name of religion (delusion) were/are avoidable.

I would claim that greed for riches and power have caused far more evil in the world than religion, but it's true that religion has been used as a cover for those more fundamental causes many times.

However nationalism has IMO been involved also far more than religion as well.

I don't see that fact being used as an excuse for railing against any of those other causes.

Fact is there are some (IMO inconsequential) positives within all of those as well, just as there is for religion.

Calling someone a fool for beliefs you consider false is not conducive to an enlightening nor interesting conversation on the issues.

I myself, although a "believer" according to atheists am very much a heretic according to the faithful followers of any organized religion.

I think it very unlikely that any of Jesus' contemporaries accurately recorded his words verbatim. However I think it is very likely that the gist of a lot of the meaning this wise man meant to convey has been preserved.

It is just a pity that so few people that call themselves Christian actually try to incorporate his advice into their daily lives.

[thailiketoo]

Of course religion is not the only cause of atrocities. Just the overwhelming and most significant cause.

The reason for the condemnation is the fact that atrocities committed under the name of religion (delusion) were/are avoidable.

I would claim that greed for riches and power have caused far more evil in the world than religion, but it's true that religion has been used as a cover for those more fundamental causes many times.

However nationalism has IMO been involved also far more than religion as well.

I don't see that fact being used as an excuse for railing against any of those other causes.

Fact is there are some (IMO inconsequential) positives within all of those as well, just as there is for religion.

Calling someone a fool for beliefs you consider false is not conducive to an enlightening nor interesting conversation on the issues.

I myself, although a "believer" according to atheists am very much a heretic according to the faithful followers of any organized religion.

I think it very unlikely that any of Jesus' contemporaries accurately recorded his words verbatim. However I think it is very likely that the gist of a lot of the meaning this wise man meant to convey has been preserved.

It is just a pity that so few people that call themselves Christian actually try to incorporate his advice into their daily lives.

I would hesitate to call people fools. Although Kurt Vonnegut said about Cat's Cradle, " Anyone unable to understand how useful religion can be founded on lies will not understand this book either.” And I really liked the book. So much that when hospitals ask me for my religion I put down Bokononism.

So I wouldn't call people fools. I would call them fog bound children or stuppas.

[cashpower]

Calling someone a fool for beliefs you consider false is not conducive to an enlightening nor interesting conversation on the issues.

Enlightening conversation? With people who believe in magic men in the sky? Are you serious?

So where do you draw the line for foolish beliefs? Leprechauns? Pixies? Santa Claus?

This is the 21st century, the enlightened people have moved on from ascribing natural phenomena to voodoo. I suggest you do the same

[thailiketoo]

Calling someone a fool for beliefs you consider false is not conducive to an enlightening nor interesting conversation on the issues.

Enlightening conversation? With people who believe in magic men in the sky? Are you serious?

So where do you draw the line for foolish beliefs? Leprechauns? Pixies? Santa Claus?

This is the 21st century, the enlightened people have moved on from ascribing natural phenomena to voodoo. I suggest you do the same

You are asking people who believe in magic and men in the sky where to draw the line?

[StreetCowboy]

Calling someone a fool for beliefs you consider false is not conducive to an enlightening nor interesting conversation on the issues.

Enlightening conversation? With people who believe in magic men in the sky? Are you serious?

So where do you draw the line for foolish beliefs? Leprechauns? Pixies? Santa Claus?

This is the 21st century, the enlightened people have moved on from ascribing natural phenomena to voodoo. I suggest you do the same

You apparently disbelieve in a different God from me. I don't know anyone amongst the religious people that i know who subscribe to God being an old white fellow with a grey beard and a bath towel. Like the Muslims, most of the religious people I know subscribe to the view that any graven image will not do God justice

SC

[cashpower]

@thailiketoo

good point.

Edited January 19, 2014 by cashpower

[thailiketoo]

You apparently disbelieve in a different God from me. I don't know anyone amongst the religious people that i know who subscribe to God being an old white fellow with a grey beard and a bath towel. Like the Muslims, most of the religious people I know subscribe to the view that any graven image will not do God justice

SC

Would you agree that my conception of God is just as valid and logical and reasonable as yours? If not why?

[cashpower]

You apparently disbelieve in a different God from me. I don't know anyone amongst the religious people that i know who subscribe to God being an old white fellow with a grey beard and a bath towel. Like the Muslims, most of the religious people I know subscribe to the view that any graven image will not do God justice

SC

apparently you havent seen any of those images of the chap on the crucifix whose buddy (or some other chap claiming to be his buddy) professed: John 10:30, “I and the Father are one."

But it does all get a bit confusing

[sirineou]

Of course religion is not the only cause of atrocities. Just the overwhelming and most significant cause.

The reason for the condemnation is the fact that atrocities committed under the name of religion (delusion) were/are avoidable.

I would claim that greed for riches and power have caused far more evil in the world than religion, but it's true that religion has been used as a cover for those more fundamental causes many times.

However nationalism has IMO been involved also far more than religion as well.

I don't see that fact being used as an excuse for railing against any of those other causes.

Fact is there are some (IMO inconsequential) positives within all of those as well, just as there is for religion.

Calling someone a fool for beliefs you consider false is not conducive to an enlightening nor interesting conversation on the issues.

I myself, although a "believer" according to atheists am very much a heretic according to the faithful followers of any organized religion.

I think it very unlikely that any of Jesus' contemporaries accurately recorded his words verbatim. However I think it is very likely that the gist of a lot of the meaning this wise man meant to convey has been preserved.

It is just a pity that so few people that call themselves Christian actually try to incorporate his advice into their daily lives.

If some one engages in foolish activities one might be considered foolish.

Calling such man a fool is also foolish and anyone doing that better be prepared to include him self under such title.

There is no man alive who has not engaged in foolish behaviour at one or an other time, I my self chief among them,

Yet I would not consider my self a fool.

Calling anyone a fool accomplishes nothing other than to stifle the conversation. It is counter productive

It is more productive to engage such person in conversation, and trough the Socratic method lead such person to the realisation that such behaviour is foolish, That way maybe both could learn something.

Human Hubris takes many forms, Nationalism is one of them, there are many others, I am sure you all can think of a few,

Religion can and is used as a tool by some who themselves might not even be religious them selves, but harness the power of blind faith to get others to do things,that they would otherwise not ever even dream of doing.

Religion is an enabler. and id very very dangerous. It has some positive attributes, but all of these atributes can be accomplished by other less dangerous means.

[cashpower]

If some one engages in foolish activities one might be considered foolish.

Calling such man a fool is also foolish and anyone doing that better be prepared to include him self under such title.

.

That's just PC bullshit. Sometimes it is more beneficial to call a spade a bloody spade. Thousands of years of history demonstrate that it is almost pointless trying to instil common sense or reasoning into the brainwashed masses who continue to assert their belief in a jazzed up version of the tooth fairy.

[wym]

@thailiketoo

good point.

cashpower, please do me a favor and don't express agreement with anything I say, no matter how obviously true.

I don't think I could stand the shame of being associated with the persona you've constructed here.

I concede its possible I'd actually like and respect "the man behind the curtain", but from here how would I know?

[cashpower]

@thailiketoo

good point.

cashpower, please do me a favor and don't express agreement with anything I say, no matter how obviously true.

I don't think I could stand the shame of being associated with the persona you've constructed here.

I concede its possible I'd actually like and respect "the man behind the curtain", but from here how would I know?

Your ego has misled you. I was agreeing with another poster.

In any case the feeling is mutual as far as shame goes, but I dont think I would either like or respect you from what I have read so far. You portray yourself as someone who exploits vulnerable women and think everyone else wants to know what you did with your dick the night before.

Edited January 19, 2014 by cashpower

[boomerangutang]

There are deeper meanings and substance in the spiritual world than what has been parodied herein about religions and their faithful. Religion (of any kind) offers explanations and allows those who seek deeper meanings to search and hope. What is the substance of life? It is difficult for a spiritual seeker to accept that everything can be explained with a mathematical formula, a test tube and scientific analysis, especially when those things can measure nothing related to the spirit of man. That is because they are two separate and distinct realms.

It appears that by the comment, efforts were designed and intended to get rid of us. That's too bad. Keep the discourse substantive and debate will continue. Have we said everything there is to be said about Atheists vs Believers?

Spirituality and religion are as different as whole wheat bread and Hostess cupcakes. I agree, however, that nearly all people need and seek direction in such matters. However, direction (from others or from a Holy Book) is not always necessary, particularly for those who have experienced/experimented for decades with spiritual concepts. Here's a comparison: The US Olympic team has try-outs for the fastest swimmers to qualify for the team. Every swimmer is expected to have top-notch coaches and practice in swimming pools for many years. Along comes a Hawaiian who has never had a coach and never been in a swimming pool, but who smokes the competition because he/she has surfed since childhood. Edited January 19, 2014 by boomerangutang

[pastafarian]

Interesting piece from today's Independent about an atheist ex-muslim.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/allah-vs-atheism-leaving-islam-was-the-hardest-thing-ive-done-9069598.html

[StreetCowboy]

You apparently disbelieve in a different God from me. I don't know anyone amongst the religious people that i know who subscribe to God being an old white fellow with a grey beard and a bath towel. Like the Muslims, most of the religious people I know subscribe to the view that any graven image will not do God justice

SC

Would you agree that my conception of God is just as valid and logical and reasonable as yours? If not why?

I don't think I would comment on the validity, logic or reason of another's conception of God.