Are you an Atheist/Believer?

[notmyself]

Spirituality?

http://www.livescience.com/42635-esp-sixth-sense-just-vision.html

[canuckamuck]

Actually this is pretty close to what I consider to be the way it works.

Not sure about "random" though. . .

Not sure if it is random also,

so far all the evidence presented indicates that it is, but I could be wrong

It is my view that all that really exist is information, me and you and everything else are packages of information , when we discorporate , that information forms different relationships incorporating in to different forms,

Perhaps the formula of the package of information that constitutes you, is what the soul is, and since information is indestructible so is the soul, but if that's true then everything has a soul.

Now comes the crux of the problem and argument, is there an entity. actively orchestrating the mix of the information or is it a random event.

This is interesting: but I am not sure I understand exactly what you are referring to. Are you speaking of reincarnation (in a Buddhist sense) or is this just your own concept of what happens after death.

I ask because in the Buddhist ideology, the process of reincorporating is greatly affected by karma. Which in essence does seem to be a decider of good and bad. So not exactly random.

If this is your personal concept of life after death, or even just death. I do have questions about the information which you believe cannot be destroyed. On what do you base this asssumption that information cannot be destroyed?

[canuckamuck]

Actually this is pretty close to what I consider to be the way it works.

Not sure about "random" though. . .

Not sure if it is random also,

so far all the evidence presented indicates that it is, but I could be wrong

It is my view that all that really exist is information, me and you and everything else are packages of information , when we discorporate , that information forms different relationships incorporating in to different forms,

Perhaps the formula of the package of information that constitutes you, is what the soul is, and since information is indestructible so is the soul, but if that's true then everything has a soul.

Now comes the crux of the problem and argument, is there an entity. actively orchestrating the mix of the information or is it a random event.

This is interesting: but I am not sure I understand exactly what you are referring to. Are you speaking of reincarnation (in a Buddhist sense) or is this just your own concept of what happens after death.

I ask because in the Buddhist ideology, the process of reincorporating is greatly affected by karma. Which in essence does seem to be a decider of good and bad. So not exactly random.

If this is your personal concept of life after death, or even just death. I do have questions about the information which you believe cannot be destroyed. On what do you base this asssumption that information cannot be destroyed?

[sirineou]

Do you think there can be a spiritual aspect to orgasm & sexual pleasure ?

First let me say that I am not debating you. I don't know you , and I am not sure if I understand your position properly, so please don't take it personally,

Before I attempt to answer your above question please define your understanding of what spiritual means,

Dictionary says "Relating to or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things."

" Who am I ? " ...you may have never asked this question seriously but I'm sure you already take the answer for granted.

Is it your view that sex between two consenting adults is strictly for procreation?

if you do then I can offer an opposing view.

Yes of course people are having sex for many reasons... money, lust, love, ego, greed, shame, guilt, revenge, affection, kindness, escapism, fetishism, self-healing, self-harming, healing-another, hurting-another, occultism, shamanism, voodoo, procreation, recreation, etc.

"Dictionary says "Relating to or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things'

Under that definition and since no such relationship has ever being proven, and since sex is a material thing, I dont see how there could be a spiritual connection to sex.

"" Who am I ? " ...you may have never asked this question seriously but I'm sure you already take the answer for granted."

not at all , I take nothing for granted,

​Simply a clumsy attempt on my part, to relate to you, that I am not making any value judgments,

"Yes of course people are having sex for many reasons... money, lust, love, ego, greed, shame, guilt, revenge, affection, kindness, escapism, fetishism, self-healing, self-harming, healing-another, hurting-another, occultism, shamanism, voodoo, procreation, recreation, etc".

That and more,

couldn't agree with you more

So you answered your own question

Homosexuals are have sex for many of the above reasons, same as infertile couples do. Procreation is not the only reason humans have sex.

[RandomSand]

Very good. It is so !

[sirineou]

Not sure if it is random also,

so far all the evidence presented indicates that it is, but I could be wrong

It is my view that all that really exist is information, me and you and everything else are packages of information , when we discorporate , that information forms different relationships incorporating in to different forms,

Perhaps the formula of the package of information that constitutes you, is what the soul is, and since information is indestructible so is the soul, but if that's true then everything has a soul.

Now comes the crux of the problem and argument, is there an entity. actively orchestrating the mix of the information or is it a random event.

This is interesting: but I am not sure I understand exactly what you are referring to. Are you speaking of reincarnation (in a Buddhist sense) or is this just your own concept of what happens after death.

I ask because in the Buddhist ideology, the process of reincorporating is greatly affected by karma. Which in essence does seem to be a decider of good and bad. So not exactly random.

If this is your personal concept of life after death, or even just death. I do have questions about the information which you believe cannot be destroyed. On what do you base this asssumption that information cannot be destroyed?

Preservation of information is not my own theory . there is a wide field of research on that subject.

so let me try to explain

all that information is , are all the possible combinations a system can take to produce a specific affect

what ever happens to the system, the possibilities will always exist .

An oversimplification, but for that you must take my word, because a full explanation requires physics that are simply beyond my ability to explain, or even to fully understand.

So here is an example as it pertains to black holes

"There are two main principles in play:

• Quantum determinism means that given a present wave function, its future changes are uniquely determined by the evolution operator.

• Reversibility refers to the fact that the evolution operator has an inverse, meaning that the past wave functions are similarly unique.

The combination of the two means that information must always be preserved.

Starting in the mid-1970s, Stephen Hawking and Jacob Bekenstein put forward theoretical arguments based on general relativity and quantum field theory that appeared to be inconsistent with information conservation. Specifically, Hawking's calculations^[3] indicated that black hole evaporation via Hawking radiation does not preserve information. Today, many physicists believe that the holographic principle (specifically the AdS/CFT duality) demonstrates that Hawking's conclusion was incorrect, and that information is in fact preserved.^[4] In 2004 Hawking himself conceded a bet he had made, agreeing that black hole evaporation does in fact preserve information."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_information_paradox

So it has being agreed, and Hawking has paid up on his bet that, even black holes could not destroy information

As far as Buddhism is concerned I agree that if correct, recombination would not be a random affect, But Buddhism as far as I know is a Philosophy and not a science, No claims that Buddhism makes as it pertains to reincarnation, have being scientifically proven.

Edited January 22, 2014 by sirineou

[Nowhereman60]

I believe in one being. Me and only me, I could not give a crap about anyone else or any other God. It's stupid to believe their is a heaven or hell. Any type of afterlife is only a foolish idea.

[canuckamuck]

What is this desire to say "I believe this... Therefore what you believe is stupid"? Is it a defense mechanism?

[canuckamuck]

Double post

Edited January 22, 2014 by canuckamuck

[canuckamuck]

Not sure if it is random also,

so far all the evidence presented indicates that it is, but I could be wrong

It is my view that all that really exist is information, me and you and everything else are packages of information , when we discorporate , that information forms different relationships incorporating in to different forms,

Perhaps the formula of the package of information that constitutes you, is what the soul is, and since information is indestructible so is the soul, but if that's true then everything has a soul.

Now comes the crux of the problem and argument, is there an entity. actively orchestrating the mix of the information or is it a random event.

This is interesting: but I am not sure I understand exactly what you are referring to. Are you speaking of reincarnation (in a Buddhist sense) or is this just your own concept of what happens after death.

I ask because in the Buddhist ideology, the process of reincorporating is greatly affected by karma. Which in essence does seem to be a decider of good and bad. So not exactly random.

If this is your personal concept of life after death, or even just death. I do have questions about the information which you believe cannot be destroyed. On what do you base this asssumption that information cannot be destroyed?

Preservation of information is not my own theory . there is a wide field of research on that subject.

so let me try to explain

all that information is , are all the possible combinations a system can take to produce a specific affect

what ever happens to the system, the possibilities will always exist .

An oversimplification, but for that you must take my word, because a full explanation requires physics that are simply beyond my ability to explain, or even to fully understand.

So here is an example as it pertains to black holes

"There are two main principles in play:

• Quantum determinism means that given a present wave function, its future changes are uniquely determined by the evolution operator.

• Reversibility refers to the fact that the evolution operator has an inverse, meaning that the past wave functions are similarly unique.

The combination of the two means that information must always be preserved.

Starting in the mid-1970s, Stephen Hawking and Jacob Bekenstein put forward theoretical arguments based on general relativity and quantum field theory that appeared to be inconsistent with information conservation. Specifically, Hawking's calculations^[3] indicated that black hole evaporation via Hawking radiation does not preserve information. Today, many physicists believe that the holographic principle (specifically the AdS/CFT duality) demonstrates that Hawking's conclusion was incorrect, and that information is in fact preserved.^[4] In 2004 Hawking himself conceded a bet he had made, agreeing that black hole evaporation does in fact preserve information."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_information_paradox

So it has being agreed, and Hawking has paid up on his bet that, even black holes could not destroy information

As far as Buddhism is concerned I agree that if correct, recombination would not be a random affect, But Buddhism as far as I know is a Philosophy and not a science, No claims that Buddhism makes as it pertains to reincarnation, have being scientifically proven.

Ok I get your drift and I see a connection to the " the universe and all the energy are one, therefore the universe is god and we are all part of god, concept". Not saying that is what you believe. About information not ever being destroyed, I think that is contextual. Historical information (knowledge) can certainly be lost.

[RandomSand]

black hole

Are black holes dimensionally symmetrical like the the way the sun gives off light or dimensionally planar like a spot light ?

[RandomSand]

Wow ! straight forward path to enlightenment. One page on wikipedia. The practice even originated in Thailand !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhammakaya_meditation

[sirineou]

. Historical information (knowledge) can certainly be lost.

Only to you,

and by that I don't mean you, thought to you also.

I think it is a bit Hubristic to assume that since the information is no longer available to humans at this time , it is lost for ever, it is never lost, it is simply not available to you at this time.

It is still there waiting to be rediscovered.

I

[wym]

Is it your view that sex between two consenting adults is strictly for procreation?

if you do then I can offer an opposing view.

Yes of course people are having sex for many reasons... money, lust, love, ego, greed, shame, guilt, revenge, affection, kindness, escapism, fetishism, self-healing, self-harming, healing-another, hurting-another, occultism, shamanism, voodoo, procreation, recreation, etc.

Spiritual growth, intentional advancement of intimacy in a relationship and most of all for me, SPORT, pretty much my only form of physical exercise, happens to be a fun one that I enjoy unlike others.

[wym]

Ok I get your drift and I see a connection to the " the universe and all the energy are one, therefore the universe is god and we are all part of god, concept". Not saying that is what you believe. About information not ever being destroyed, I think that is contextual. Historical information (knowledge) can certainly be lost.

Only if you believe in Time as we perceive it. Doesn't actually exist from a more objective POV.

[sirineou]

black hole

Are black holes dimensionally symmetrical like the the way the sun gives off light or dimensionally planar like a spot light ?

I will admite I don't understand your question.are you asking me to explain the internal structure of a black hole?

I will certainly not do that,

Firstly black holes are not really holes, they are the opposite of holes, a hole is the absence of something and black holes are full of something

second black holes are not really black, I know that this has being the prevailing theory in the past but new research indicates that do to the "Hawking radiation affect at the event horizon Black holes can be visible.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/under-the-microscope-are-black-holes-really-black-2096673.html

But I don't know what the structure of black holes has to do with the price of the tea in china?

The tea we are talking about in this thread is religion, and we are moving dangerously far from that subject

If you can demonstrate how Black holes relate to religion I am willing to discuss that line of inquiry.

otherwise let's bet back on track

[canuckamuck]

. Historical information (knowledge) can certainly be lost.

Only to you,

and by that I don't mean you, thought to you also.

I think it is a bit Hubristic to assume that since the information is no longer available to humans at this time , it is lost for ever, it is never lost, it is simply not available to you at this time.

It is still there waiting to be rediscovered.

I

I can agree with that.

[RandomSand]

Yes, of course we can relate black holes to god. It might seem far off but these matters are complicated and takes much discussion to get there.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/BH_LMC.png

I'm confused because this picture depicts a two dimensional hole. I always thought that a black hole was a imploding compression of spacetime, to a centre point, from all outer directions symmetrically spherical.

Can you clarify ?

Edited January 22, 2014 by RandomSand

[sirineou]

Ok I get your drift and I see a connection to the " the universe and all the energy are one, therefore the universe is god and we are all part of god, concept". Not saying that is what you believe. About information not ever being destroyed, I think that is contextual. Historical information (knowledge) can certainly be lost.

Only if you believe in Time as we perceive it. Doesn't actually exist from a more objective POV.

Very perceptive of you

Imagine time as if each instance was a snapshot ,we move from snap shot to snapshot in a forward direction, and there are reasons why only forward , too complex to go int now.

just because we left the previous snapshot it does not mean that it no longer exists, it only means that it does not exist from out point of view.

which brings as back to the information preservation theory.

Plenty of information on the internet, and some interesting documentarys on Youtube

Here is one by Physicist Brian Green

http://youtu.be/4BjGWLJNPcA

[RandomSand]

TIME:

You have a piece of dough on a table. Let's call the dough "reality". The dough is in the form of the present. You shape the dough and create another "reality". Does the past "reality" still exist? NO! the only true reality is the current expression of the dough... which is formed from the previous expression of the dough. And the future? Just shape the dough some more and the you'll get there.

The past is not real and does not exist.

The future is not real and does not exist.

Only the present is real.

How any person can come up with bizarre arguments suggesting otherwise is beyond me.

[sirineou]

Yes, of course we can relate black holes to god. It might seem far off but these matters are complicated and takes much discussion to get there.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/BH_LMC.png

I'm confused because this picture depicts a two dimensional hole. I always thought that a black hole was a imploding compression of spacetime, to a centre point, from all outer directions symmetrically spherical.

Can you clarify ?

I don't believe this to be a real picture of a black hole

Did you read the article I send you a link of? it explains things much better than I can

here is a link to some real pictures, notice that none of them is really black

http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=121315.

That's because as matter falls in to a black hole , it is heated up through friction ,between the different particles, (an over simplification)

and these particles begin to glow . Things falling in to a black hole do not fall in straight but in a spiral configuration , forming an accretion disk ,before they reach the event horizon. the angular momentum of such matter can be such that escape velocity can be achieved.(again an over simplification) but that's how I understand it.

perhaps some one with better understanding can set me straight.

[RandomSand]

I only want to know if it's spherical or disc shaped.

It it disc shaped then?

[sirineou]

I only want to know if it's spherical or disc shaped.

It it disc shaped then?

Don't be lazy. Google the question

Black holes are 4 dimensional, 3 dimensions in space and one in time

I like this much more when we were beating up on Christians

Edited January 22, 2014 by sirineou

[sirineou]

TIME:

You have a piece of dough on a table. Let's call the dough "reality". The dough is in the form of the present. You shape the dough and create another "reality". Does the past "reality" still exist? NO! the only true reality is the current expression of the dough... which is formed from the previous expression of the dough. And the future? Just shape the dough some more and the you'll get there.

The past is not real and does not exist.

The future is not real and does not exist.

Only the present is real.

How any person can come up with bizarre arguments suggesting otherwise is beyond me.

No you don't shape the dough , the dough shapes you

[boomerangutang]

God exists only because people, as a species, want there to be a higher authority, someone/something that's creating and manipulating everything, including emotions. God differs from nature, in that God has intent (He's angry, He's benevolent, He's judgemental, ad nauseum), whereas in nature, things unfold in natural ways. A severe storm is not 'angry' or 'vengeful' ....instead it happens as the result of natural phenomena. God fearing people can't see that. They need to personify/personalize phenomena. When birds are chirping around you while you're sitting in a park, they're not singing lovely songs in praise of you or for your benefit - they're doing their bird thing - mating calls, alarm calls, whatever. They don't even notice people except to the extent you might be a threat or giving them food.

I agree with you that God exists but disagree with your reasoning as why he/she exists.

I'd like to ask an Atheist what they think of Buddhism and in particular what H.H the Dalai Lama says. Do you think you are wiser than a being who has been incarnated 14 times?

Are we going to have a pissing contest to see who thinks they've been incarnated the most times? Being incarnated, in Buddhist belief system, means having to come back - to do it right (attain enlightenment) a final time. I'm friends with a Tibetan Rinpoche whose lineage can be traced further back than the Dalai Lama's. Does that make him wiser than the D.L?

WHat on earth would you and a Tibetan Rinpoche have in common?

Do you claim to have no soul?

I shouldn't feed a troll post, but here goes......

Rinpoche Lama Tarchin and I are friends. Do I have to qualify that to you or anyone? As for the 'soul' question. I've been told I have a lot of soul, particularly when I sing old Motown songs. If you're asking about 'soul' in a spiritual context, I'll have to say I'm an animal, and have no more and no less of whatever you want to describe as 'soul', than marmots, whales, grasshoppers or leeches. An animal is conceived, it strives to survive, it may procreate, then it dies. If you want to burnish one particular species (humans) with superior attributes, you can busy yourself with that. But be careful with the pedestals you put humans on. There are some grave drawbacks. No other animal causes as much harm to its own species and to other species. We are the most polluting, the most wicked species, ever. By having big complicated brains, we are also, by far, the most self-debilitating animals ever. If in doubt, take a look at a psychiatrists' lexicon sometime. Or read the headlines of any newspaper on any day.

[boomerangutang]

If there is a God, particularly one that creates and controls everything, He/She sure is a sicko. Look around and see the mess that humans are doing to themselves (individually and as a group) and the harm humans are doing to other species and the planet. If a God made this happen, He/She sure has a wicked sense of humor.

[canuckamuck]

If there is a God, particularly one that creates and controls everything, He/She sure is a sicko. Look around and see the mess that humans are doing to themselves (individually and as a group) and the harm humans are doing to other species and the planet. If a God made this happen, He/She sure has a wicked sense of humor.

I see this lot. People say that God must be cruel because of terrible things that humans encounter and do to each other.

This is because you have a personal concept of, if there is a God this is what He must be like, instead of researching, what believers consider to be, God's own words on the subject.

*My point of view comes from the Judeo –Christian camp. Your mileage may vary.

God does not inflict pain and suffering, but He does allow it. This is the reality of the fallen earth. He created a perfect earth, but it was corrupted through man’s sin. Our brief residence on this planet is our opportunity to choose perfection (not to be perfect but to seek it). On the other hand, we are completely free to pursue whatever we desire to do. The corrupted state of humanity is a reflection of the heart of man, not the heart of God. What we choose to reflects what we believe.

Fortunately our time here is insignificant compared to eternity and we are given the choice to continue our existence in either corruption or perfection. The price of admission (to perfection) is to believe God is who He says He is.

God allowed for evil, sickness, death, to be a possibility because without this possibility, the choice between good and evil is not a valid choice. How can a being believe in God if there is no choice to not believe in God? How can you choose life if there is no death? It seems fair to me. It’s about free will and what you do with it. Light has no meaning without darkness.

I now expect a flurry of posts saying things like if God is perfect why didn’t He… How could He…

and of course the obligatory bashing and name calling.

Yes Sirineou you may continue to beat up Christians, since that is what this thread is about for you.

[partington]

*My point of view comes from the Judeo –Christian camp. Your mileage may vary.

God does not inflict pain and suffering, but He does allow it. This is the reality of the fallen earth. He created a perfect earth, but it was corrupted through man’s sin.

God allowed for evil, sickness, death, to be a possibility because without this possibility, the choice between good and evil is not a valid choice. How can a being believe in God if there is no choice to not believe in God? How can you choose life if there is no death? It seems fair to me. It’s about free will and what you do with it. Light has no meaning without darkness.

I have a genuine difficulty in understanding what you are claiming about the universe and God here.

You say: "He created a perfect earth, but it was corrupted through man’s sin". Presumably by 'perfect earth' you mean in this earth there was no death, no evil and no sickness?

But then you say "God allowed for evil, sickness, death, to be a possibility because without this possibility, the choice between good and evil is not a valid choice. How can a being believe in God if there is no choice to not believe in God? How can you choose life if there is no death? "

But this is how you describe the condition of the earth that God initially created - no death, no disease - you say it was perfect. So why would God initially make an earth where a valid choice was not possible?

And how was man, despite living in this pre-corrupted perfect earth, actually able to make a valid choice between good and evil, choosing evil, and so causing the corruption that I imagine brought into existence all the imperfections we now encounter like cancer, tsunamis, plague, parasitic worms that live in your lungs, and so on?

It doesn't make sense! Either it is possible to make the choice in a perfect world, or the world needs to be imperfect to enable the choice, but it can't be both!

[canuckamuck]

I have a genuine difficulty in understanding what you are claiming about the universe and God here.

You say: "He created a perfect earth, but it was corrupted through man’s sin". Presumably by 'perfect earth' you mean in this earth there was no death, no evil and no sickness?

But then you say "God allowed for evil, sickness, death, to be a possibility because without this possibility, the choice between good and evil is not a valid choice. How can a being believe in God if there is no choice to not believe in God? How can you choose life if there is no death? "

But this is how you describe the condition of the earth that God initially created - no death, no disease - you say it was perfect. So why would God initially make an earth where a valid choice was not possible?

And how was man, despite living in this pre-corrupted perfect earth, actually able to make a valid choice between good and evil, choosing evil, and so causing the corruption that I imagine brought into existence all the imperfections we now encounter like cancer, tsunamis, plague, parasitic worms that live in your lungs, and so on?

It doesn't make sense! Either it is possible to make the choice in a perfect world, or the world needs to be imperfect to enable the choice, but it can't be both!

It was perfect with no sickness or death as you say.

And there was a valid choice available. There was always a choice, just not always a state of corruption. They had to choose to obey the only rule, which was not to eat from a certain tree. Disobedience was a choice and the penalty of that choice was the corruption of creation and death. Any break from perfection is a total break from perfection.

Whether or not man sinned there had to be two options available because of the necessity of free will.

[thailiketoo]

"Apologetics" is derived from the Greek root word apologia. In ancient Greece it referred to a formal defense of a belief, an explanation or argument for one’s philosophy or religion. The word occurs several times in the New Testament, including sections of the Gospels, seeking to persuade unbelievers of the truth claims of the Church, especially the unique nature of the person and work of Jesus Christ. Religious people get degrees in the above and study it for their entire lives.

Charles Rice, professor of the jurisprudence of St. Thomas Aquinas for the last twenty years at Notre Dame Law School, presents a very readable book on the natural law as seen through the teachings of Aquinas and their foundations in reason and Revelation. Reflecting on the most persistent questions 50 Questions on the Natural Law: What It is and Why We Need It.

What I'm getting at here is most people discussing this stuff have at least 3 advanced degrees in religion and or philosophy among other things.

Edited January 22, 2014 by thailiketoo