Special Report: A nation at the crossroads

[Smokemachine]

Wonder how many of the posters here, posting burning posts to defend "their" side here, were actually politically active in their homecountries??

Or too much time on their hands here??

Do you know when a person is pointing out at others with his index finger, his other three fingers are pointing him back.

[h90]

This is a good article, that summarizes many salient points. Indeed, corrupt practices have become so endemic that it is not surprising that the very nature of democracy has been affected. Reform's sweeping objective is to truly tackle corruption. For those who very much want the status quo of corruption to remain in place, however, will use every tactic at their disposal to do so. One of those tactics has been to wrap the whole protest movement around Suthep. This is not about Suthep. It is about Thaksin. If you stop anyone on the street, they will all - unanimously identify Thaksin. He has become the symbol of all that is corrupt in this administration. Yet you take Thaksin away, and still many corrupt practices remain in place. When a platform for reform has finally been established, all parties - including Pheu Thai must be involved. The greatest mistake any reforms could make would be to exclude Pheu Thai. That would merely cement the conflict. Similarly, not only the Democratic party must not be excluded, but neither all parties and people from all walks of life. As the political conflict has been centered on two particular parties, neither should have majority sway in the new reform. A proposal brought forth recently by a group of business leaders - whereby Pheu Thai and the Democratic party would compose just one-third each of a coalition of reform partners, together with other non-partisan sectors of society - has the greater potential of uniting the country. So two things must be avoided. No one must be excluded from the process, yet no one party should exercise a monopoly. And that would inspire greater public confidence and trust in politics.

Wrong on so many grounds (though I agree Suthep is not the central issue) though no doubt meant sincerely.

1.No evidence that corruption is worse now than at any time in the last 20 years.Suthep himself however is a notoriously venal and corrupt figure.

2.Reform's primary idea is not to tackle corruption but to ensure Thai people cannot choose leaders at a general election.

3.The protest is not "about Thaksin" though he is the symbol of what the unelected elites, Suthep's Southerners and urban Sino Thai middle class hate.The real reasons are more complex.

4.Since Thaksin is still the most popular Thai politician I doubt whether the unanimous disapproval you suggest of the man on the street is true.

5.You are hopelessly incorrect to think an undemocratic praesidium of approved political hacks and non elected "good people" would improve the position.It would have the opposite effect.

1) Everyone who lives in Thailand knows that the corruption is worse than ever before

2) It tackle the Shinawatra systeme, vote buying and corruption and want to bring MORE democracy and of course general elections in approx. 1 year.

3) Which unelected elites??? Bangkok middle class and Southern Rubber farmer are the unelected elites???

4) Popular or not is not important, he is a criminal on the run.....also Hitler was the most popular politician, still he wasn't good for the country.

5) They should stay for 1 year with the sole purpose to prepare elections.....not much harm they can do. Beside the undemocratic Surayud government was the least corrupt and one of the best one in the last 15 or so years.

[Roadman]

This is a good article, that summarizes many salient points. Indeed, corrupt practices have become so endemic that it is not surprising that the very nature of democracy has been affected. Reform's sweeping objective is to truly tackle corruption. For those who very much want the status quo of corruption to remain in place, however, will use every tactic at their disposal to do so. One of those tactics has been to wrap the whole protest movement around Suthep. This is not about Suthep. It is about Thaksin. If you stop anyone on the street, they will all - unanimously identify Thaksin. He has become the symbol of all that is corrupt in this administration. Yet you take Thaksin away, and still many corrupt practices remain in place. When a platform for reform has finally been established, all parties - including Pheu Thai must be involved. The greatest mistake any reforms could make would be to exclude Pheu Thai. That would merely cement the conflict. Similarly, not only the Democratic party must not be excluded, but neither all parties and people from all walks of life. As the political conflict has been centered on two particular parties, neither should have majority sway in the new reform. A proposal brought forth recently by a group of business leaders - whereby Pheu Thai and the Democratic party would compose just one-third each of a coalition of reform partners, together with other non-partisan sectors of society - has the greater potential of uniting the country. So two things must be avoided. No one must be excluded from the process, yet no one party should exercise a monopoly. And that would inspire greater public confidence and trust in politics.

Wrong on so many grounds (though I agree Suthep is not the central issue) though no doubt meant sincerely.

1.No evidence that corruption is worse now than at any time in the last 20 years.Suthep himself however is a notoriously venal and corrupt figure.

2.Reform's primary idea is not to tackle corruption but to ensure Thai people cannot choose leaders at a general election.

3.The protest is not "about Thaksin" though he is the symbol of what the unelected elites, Suthep's Southerners and urban Sino Thai middle class hate.The real reasons are more complex.

4.Since Thaksin is still the most popular Thai politician I doubt whether the unanimous disapproval you suggest of the man on the street is true.

5.You are hopelessly incorrect to think an undemocratic praesidium of approved political hacks and non elected "good people" would improve the position.It would have the opposite effect.

1) Everyone who lives in Thailand knows that the corruption is worse than ever before

2) It tackle the Shinawatra systeme, vote buying and corruption and want to bring MORE democracy and of course general elections in approx. 1 year.

3) Which unelected elites??? Bangkok middle class and Southern Rubber farmer are the unelected elites???

4) Popular or not is not important, he is a criminal on the run.....also Hitler was the most popular politician, still he wasn't good for the country.

5) They should stay for 1 year with the sole purpose to prepare elections.....not much harm they can do. Beside the undemocratic Surayud government was the least corrupt and one of the best one in the last 15 or so years.

Five relevant and correct responses h90...well done.

[monkeycountry]

what is truly "Amazing" is some Thais (and some TVF posters) really think democracy is not 'worth it' and should not be given to those 'poor farmers'

let's reiterate - the only way for us to know how many Thais support Dear Leader Suthep is to have an... wait for it.... drum roll... ELECTION

but he doesn't want that - i mean why rely on democracy when you can just take over?

I am one of those TVF posters. While I support elections, I think there should be voter restrictions in countries where the population is as uneducated as in Thailand.

The reason we do not let children decide on most issues, is because they do not yet know what is best for them - and others. This is also the case for many adults.

Everyone should of course have the opportunity to vote, but perhaps people should meet some criteria other than being over 18 in order to vote. Perhaps a national test on some general knowledge would be the answer. Everyone can then study a bit in order to pass the test, and then vote.

As it is, any idiot could win a Thai election simply by promising to borrow a ton of money and distribute the money evenly to all Thais, therefore traditional democracy is not a good solution for Thailand.

Further, I am no fan of Suthep, and don't want him as either MP or PM. However I do support his attempt at getting rid of the Shinawatras. The PTP can stay, they can even stay in power for all I care, just without the Shinawatras.

Edited January 5, 2014 by monkeycountry

[catweazle]

For the past 23 years that I am living here, I can't remember this country ever not standing at a crossroads. Trying to get this country out of its conditioned conservative agrypnocoma is like trying to fit an F1 engine into an oxcart...

Edited January 5, 2014 by catweazle

[Old Man River]

A nation does not make a better democracy by abandoning democracy.

Some tell that idiot Suthep this. But of course you know he would not understand it because he is an X democrat.

Someone did obviously as Suthep never wanted to abandoning democracy. Actually he want to end vote buying.

No you are completely wrong.In fact Suthep does not say very much about vote buying - and the well educated Democrats (Abhisit,Korn etc) scarcely refer to it at all at all.The reason for this is that the overwhelming evidence is that recent elections in Thailand have been fair and reasonably well conducted.More specifically it has been demonstrated while vote buying does exist, it has not had an impact on the election outcome.Very recently Chis Baker and Acharn Pasuk wrote an article demolishing the vote buying myths propagated by many.

The argument that Suthep does put forward is a different concept of vote buying, namely populism.By this he and his folllowers mean persuading uneducated and uninformed people to vote for politicians who promise education,healthcare, cheap credit etc.This has the merit of some logic as opposed the nonsense you spout out.But it too is wrong because it overlooks the reality that in all democracies people vote for policies which they think will improve their lives.If the Democrats and Suthep concentrated on abuses of populism (such as the rice support scheme) they would have much more credibility.

On your comments on vote buying I agree. The fact is, all parties buy votes in Thailand. These protests aren't about vote buying, nor in my opinion are they solely about populist policies either. Rather, they are about the level of corruption being allowed within the populist policies.

All Thai's are used to some amount of corruption as they have grown up with it. Depending how you term it, campaign fund raisers and political donations with subsequent cabinet positions and appointments in my home country could be viewed similarly, if one wanted to use the most strictest of definitions.

However, in Thailand, the amount of corruption is being viewed as over the top, which is somewhat understandable given a convicted felon is trying to keep control from another country. The alleged amounts are now above normally expected thresholds. Combine this with the alleged mismanagement of the populist programs and the heavy taxation which will be required (VAT will have to rise this year), and the situation gives Suthep a ready made protest group.

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[jpinx]

no better than Bangladesh

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-25602436#sa-ns_mchannel=rss&ns_source=PublicRSS20-sa

[jayboy]

1) Everyone who lives in Thailand knows that the corruption is worse than ever before

2) It tackle the Shinawatra systeme, vote buying and corruption and want to bring MORE democracy and of course general elections in approx. 1 year.

3) Which unelected elites??? Bangkok middle class and Southern Rubber farmer are the unelected elites???

4) Popular or not is not important, he is a criminal on the run.....also Hitler was the most popular politician, still he wasn't good for the country.

5) They should stay for 1 year with the sole purpose to prepare elections.....not much harm they can do. Beside the undemocratic Surayud government was the least corrupt and one of the best one in the last 15 or so years.

Again more nonsense, though certainly quite widely shared.Dealing with your points in turn.

1) Corruption is and was a problem in Thailand.However by some criteria Transparency International (the leading authority on the matter) believes it is less prevalent now than hitherto.There is no evidence to suggest it is worse than before.

2) The protests may be against the "Shinawatra system", but that is just another way of saying the Democrats are unable to persuade enough Thais to vote for them.They would be better advised to improve their policies, dismiss its incompetent leadership and recruit more ordinary Thais as members.In that way they might be able to compete with the "Shinawatra system".It has already been explained to you that vote buying had nothing to do with the electoral performance of the Thaksin associated parties.If what you mean is that the protests are against populist policies (improving the lives of less privileged Thais), then be honest enough to say so.Anti populism in itself is not something to be ashamed of - the Tea Party in the US had much the same view about tax payers subsidising the less well off.However it is odd that the Democrats copied Thaksin's populist policies at the last election.

3) You fail to grasp the point.Of course the urban middle class and Southerners are not unelected elites: they are merely the useful idiots.The current battle is one conducted at a higher level.

4) I made no comment on the significance of Thaksin's great popularity, nor do I disagree that popularity in itself conveys no moral stature.I mentioned it only to demonstrate your claim there was unanimous disapproval of him was untrue.

5) You skip over the horrors of Suthep's proposed praesidium and the damage it would do.Frankly your crude melange of fantasy, lies, propaganda and stupidity was beginning to annoy me.However I then noticed your comment about the virtues of the Surayud government (the laziest, most incompetent and derided administration in half a century) so finally understood you were only having a laugh.Nice one.

[chainarong]

Thailand is not at the cross roads , Thailand is at the "Y" junction, however the road leading from the V part leads to no where. End of story>-----

[jackrich]

Suthep is trying to grab power, nothing else.

He was vice-PM during the Abhisit period and together they did absolutely no changes to the system they call broken and corrupt now. If they would have changed it while they were in power and had an absolute majority in parliament, they wouldn't need to complain now.

Why did they not change it back then? And what kind of assurance is there that they will indeed change it this time and not just shovel money into their pockets again during the entire "people's council" period?

Bullshit.

[beautifulthailand99]

A nation does not make a better democracy by abandoning democracy.

Some tell that idiot Suthep this. But of course you know he would not understand it because he is an X democrat.

No he believes in a newly discovered 'Absolute Democracy' which should be added to the thread on unique Thai inventions.

[harada]

For the past 23 years that I am living here, I can't remember this country ever not standing at a crossroads. Trying to get this country out of its conditioned conservative agrypnocoma is like trying to fit an F1 engine into an oxcart...

Ive got a couple of years up on you catweasle and I totally agree,I think same same sums it up pretty well,but I still love the place.

[winstonc]

Wonder how many of the posters here, posting burning posts to defend "their" side here, were actually politically active in their homecountries??

Or too much time on their hands here??

yes i was active us postman supported the mineworkers nottingham and kent/then the printworkers at wapping.when that cu-nt murdoch banned unions..whats your excuse and dont make up porkies..ucw nw2 branch..london.cricklewood ..where the goodies were from

[Sydebolle]

Well, and in 28 days the new government is elected - how swell!

[Old Man River]

1) Everyone who lives in Thailand knows that the corruption is worse than ever before

2) It tackle the Shinawatra systeme, vote buying and corruption and want to bring MORE democracy and of course general elections in approx. 1 year.

3) Which unelected elites??? Bangkok middle class and Southern Rubber farmer are the unelected elites???

4) Popular or not is not important, he is a criminal on the run.....also Hitler was the most popular politician, still he wasn't good for the country.

5) They should stay for 1 year with the sole purpose to prepare elections.....not much harm they can do. Beside the undemocratic Surayud government was the least corrupt and one of the best one in the last 15 or so years.

Again more nonsense, though certainly quite widely shared.Dealing with your points in turn.

1) Corruption is and was a problem in Thailand.However by some criteria Transparency International (the leading authority on the matter) believes it is less prevalent now than hitherto.There is no evidence to suggest it is worse than before

.

I am not trying to wade into your disagreement with someone else, but, as you are probably aware, Transparency International bases it's Corruption Index on perceptions of people in international organizations outside of Thailand.

In addition, even if you wanted to argue that it is the best unbiased international view we have, you should know that even Transparency International views that corruption in Thailand is worse in 2013 compared to 2012.

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[GazR]

Beyond all the bluff and bluster of political rhetoric that far too many posters here take at face value, is the reality that both protaganists are willing to engage in some reforms, but neither wants the other to dominate it and both would like to control the outcome themselves. Recent history strongly suggests that a fresh mandate would mainly serve to entrench the current parliamentary dictatorship which would once again shelve any serious reforms and carry on the self-enrichment of the ruling clique which is currently leading the country to rack and ruin. Not that Suthep's old mates did much different: As in the wake of the 1997 crisis, there is more than enough blame to go around. The way out is for one of the protagonists to fully back the binding tri-partite negotiation process proposed by the TDRI, but how many posters have really thought about that? Not many, I'd wager.

[jayboy]

I am not trying to wade into your disagreement with someone else, but, as you are probably aware, Transparency International bases it's Corruption Index on perceptions of people in international organizations outside of Thailand.

In addition, even if you wanted to argue that it is the best unbiased international view we have, you should know that even Transparency International views that corruption in Thailand is worse in 2013 compared to 2012.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Thanks for the background.You will appreciate however that I am not arguing about the level of corruption.Indeed my contention is that the current standoff is not really about corruption at all.

[Colabamumbai]

At this point in history I am glad that I am not a citizen of Thailand, having to make a choice.

[mrtoad]

Lets face it, Thaksin and his cronies are allegedly corrupt. Not surprising considering that hie controls a part, whilst he a convicted criminal fugitive is on the run. The Dems, well again they have their fair share of dubious characters as well, but it is the floaters (nice name for. A turd) like Bhanran, Sanoh, Chalerm, Chichob etc which make the whole thing a joke.

Lifetime bans for all of these lot and their families,along with a proper drafting of a constitution independent people is what is needed.

Three years of an interim Army government is better than this shower of shit.

[Just1Voice]

AMAZING FARANG!

I'm amazed at the number of "educated farang" on TVF who can't even spell the man's name right. It's T H A K S I N, and not T A K S I N.

Taksin was the 1st King of Thonburi. "He was a leader in the liberation of Siam from Burmese occupation after the Second Fall of Ayutthaya in 1767, and the subsequent unification of Siam after it fell under various warlords. He established the city Thonburi as the new capital, as the city Ayutthaya had been almost completely destroyed by the invaders. His reign was characterized by numerous wars, fought to repel new Burmese invasions and to subjugate the northern Thai kingdom of Lanna, the Laotian principalities, and a threatening Cambodia. He was executed and succeeded by his long-time friend King Buddha Yodfa Chulaloke who then created the Chakri dynasty and the Rattanakosin Kingdom." (Wikipedia)

Come on, people show your education and intelligence, not your stupidity over and over.

[binjalin]

300 people let white balloons go today in BKK to protest FOR an election

According to Khun Suthep's Accounting Dept. it was 300,000 people

[MikeOboe57]

300 people let white balloons go today in BKK to protest FOR an election

According to Khun Suthep's Accounting Dept. it was 300,000 people

300, what a massive turnout, I am thoroughly impressed. They weren´t the former PTP MPs by any chance?

[Thailand]

300 people let white balloons go today in BKK to protest FOR an election

According to Khun Suthep's Accounting Dept. it was 300,000 people

300, what a massive turnout, I am thoroughly impressed. They weren´t the former PTP MPs by any chance?

Wasn't the ex elected Democrats there were not enough of them !

[ianf]

A nation does not make a better democracy by abandoning democracy.

Some tell that idiot Suthep this. But of course you know he would not understand it because he is an X democrat.

f democracy here means a one party taksin state where his government can legalise all his crimes by amnesty and openly say they wont accept decision of courts then ill welcome anything that gets rid of him.

Remember Hitler Mugabwie Saddam and rest were all elected so if someone had stopped them in time a lot of lives would have been saved and a lot of misery avoided

You would just let Taksin continue and then in a few years wring your hands in despair at seeing Thailand become a one party police Taksin state

Thats funny because Suthep is acting far far more right wing than Thaksin ever has... great choice these two...... not

There is no evidence for this misconception of yours. Strange conclusion to draw????

[Old Man River]

I am not trying to wade into your disagreement with someone else, but, as you are probably aware, Transparency International bases it's Corruption Index on perceptions of people in international organizations outside of Thailand.

In addition, even if you wanted to argue that it is the best unbiased international view we have, you should know that even Transparency International views that corruption in Thailand is worse in 2013 compared to 2012.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Thanks for the background.You will appreciate however that I am not arguing about the level of corruption.Indeed my contention is that the current standoff is not really about corruption at all.

Got it. I agree.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[metisdead]

Off topic posts and replies have been removed.

[binjalin]

300 people let white balloons go today in BKK to protest FOR an election

According to Khun Suthep's Accounting Dept. it was 300,000 people

300, what a massive turnout, I am thoroughly impressed. They weren´t the former PTP MPs by any chance?

no,no it was 300,000

[fab4]

A nation does not make a better democracy by abandoning democracy.

Some tell that idiot Suthep this. But of course you know he would not understand it because he is an X democrat.

f democracy here means a one party taksin state where his government can legalise all his crimes by amnesty and openly say they wont accept decision of courts then ill welcome anything that gets rid of him.

Remember Hitler Mugabwie Saddam and rest were all elected so if someone had stopped them in time a lot of lives would have been saved and a lot of misery avoided

You would just let Taksin continue and then in a few years wring your hands in despair at seeing Thailand become a one party police Taksin state

I think we all remember Hitler, Saddam etc... I think about them every single day when I see Suthep on stage.

If you let Suthep continiue, in a few years Thailand will not become a one party politics , but just a one man dictatorship.

And if PTP have their way you could well find Thaiiand still becomes a one man dictatorship.

So perhaps the question is not about democracy, but rather. Who do you want to be the dictator?

How will this happen, you must know otherwise you wouldn't post it. Please tell me how a functioning democracy which elects its leaders through an election and with the King as the Head of State becomes a dictatorship? Barring a coup of course.

[dukebowling]

The real problem and deep rooted source of corruption is the Constitutional Court and blatent disregard of it's own constitution.

Suthep and the PDRC are the ones in clear violation of Article 68 but the Constitutional Court and its hidden agenda decided they weren't. The Court also abused it's power by arbitrarily ruling on the constitutional amendment to change the Senate where it has no constitutional power in the amendment process.

These absurd Constitutional Court actions have contributed to political chaos and put the PM and Parliament in a difficult position where they have to object the the rulings if they want to abide by the democratic system in place. It is their responsibility and duty to uphold the constitution.

How can Thailand trust a Court that does not follow the democratic laws of the land and make unilateral decisions with regard to government policies it has no power to make.

I'm surprised the government does not make a bigger deal about the obvious misinterpretation of the constitution and uncover the real agenda behind the court's motivation to break the law.

Edited January 5, 2014 by dukebowling

[binjalin]

A nation does not make a better democracy by abandoning democracy.

Some tell that idiot Suthep this. But of course you know he would not understand it because he is an X democrat.

f democracy here means a one party taksin state where his government can legalise all his crimes by amnesty and openly say they wont accept decision of courts then ill welcome anything that gets rid of him.

Remember Hitler Mugabwie Saddam and rest were all elected so if someone had stopped them in time a lot of lives would have been saved and a lot of misery avoided

You would just let Taksin continue and then in a few years wring your hands in despair at seeing Thailand become a one party police Taksin state

Thats funny because Suthep is acting far far more right wing than Thaksin ever has... great choice these two...... not

There is no evidence for this misconception of yours. Strange conclusion to draw????

what's strange about the conclusion?

an attempted coup? seizing buildings? commenting the poor are to 'stupid' to vote? wanting an UN-ELECTED council? against democratic elections? it's a 'no brainer' that Suthep makes Genghis Kahn look like a liberal

Edited January 5, 2014 by binjalin