Bequeathing condo to my son, need forex certificate

[vapianodubai]

Hi All

I own a condo in bkk, freehold, foreign quota, all ok. I also have a forex certificate

issued at the time of the purchase by the bank.

With some health problems etc, decided to put everything in order, last will with

lawyer etc.

As my son is a foreigner, we were told that he would need to buy the condo from the

estate as he needs a forex certificate to have his name on the title deed. As he will be

the executor of my estate, he then needs to buy it from himself, with crazy bank transfers

from abroad to immediately transfer back. The requirement seemed so bizarre that I

went to the Land Department with a thai friend to discuss this. We clearly explained that

we agree to pay the high transfer fees etc on the value of the condo to get it done.

Supervisor came and confirmed that yes, not possible as absolutely need a new forex

certificate for my son. They were most friendly, sorry, we got lots of smiles but no way.

The appraised tax value by the land department is 18mio, they said they would accept

a forex certificate for a little bit less, but no less than 15mio.

Please note that this is a foreigner to foreigner inheritance. I know the one year rule to

sell is not enforced but this is not a good long term solution.

Anybody knows of a way around this?

[PattayaPhom]

Its bizarre but yes he will need to transfer the value amount into Thailand. However they are companies that can arrange a valid FET without the actual need for this to be done.

[Langsuan Man]

Who was it that told you that your heir had to have a forex certificate to inherit a condo within the foreign quota ?

[vapianodubai]

Pattayaphom : Yes, I heard that also but nobody can give me names/recommendations. Any suggestion?

Langsuanman: This is the way it is, however strange. Confirmed by building manager who called the land department,

2 different thai lawyers who also called the land department and back myself with at the land department. No way

around it. And yes, i have my FETF, foreign exchange transaction form for my initial purchase and the condo is in my

name, foreign quota.

As the supervisor at the land department said, condo is like a lease until your death and then your heirs get the right

to sell it and receive the money. Yes, it was for me also a bit of a shock.

[Langsuan Man]

Thanks for the reply. Things never fail to amaze in Amazing Thailand, so Freehold isn't exactly freehold, who would have thought

[Delight]

Section 19 Aliens.docx

I attach an extract from the Condo .Act which details the imposed conditions .19/5 is relevant for this post. I have added the Juristic Person note.

The main attraction,in my opinion, for the Thai Government point of view is that it encourages foreigners to bequeath their condos to Thai nationals.

Typically a condo in a company name is seen as lower status as compared with a foreign owned.condo.

I understand that it costs less than 10K Baht to do a transfer from an existing company owner to a new company owner. . The land office is not involved.

The downside to this option is obvious i.e. Cost to set up a company-annual auditor fees -Potential lower re- sale value

However in the context of the O.P's problem the company route is do-able

[BlackJack]

your son would have a year to dispose of the said property

also setting up a company you can just change directors or share holders if you want to keep the property

but the way Thailand changes things around everything could be different when your time comes

[Paul888]

It's certainly a strange law but at least you found out this before you died and hopefully have time to make a contingency plan of some sort.

I think I would probably look at selling it and giving him the money before I died if it were me but obviously you need to consider your own situation and the market also. With the sums of money involved, I don't think I would be going down any roads that involved short cuts and shenagans with forex certificates, and I probably wouldn't trust anybody to execute the sale after I died a will for me.

Hope it all works out for you.

[bkksiam]

note that there are other discussions of this topic on thai visa (google topic and you will find them).

My understanding is that the beneficiary has 1 year to sell the property.

However, if the beneficiary wants to retain ownership and not sell then the process you describe is required.

see samuiforesale dot com

"Any foreigner who receives a condo in Thailand by inheritance must qualify for ownership under section 19 of the Condominium Act OR he must sell the unit within one year of acquisition by inheritance.

Edited January 6, 2014 by bkksiam

[bkksiam]

note that there are other discussions of this topic on thai visa (google topic and you will find them).

My understanding is that the beneficiary has 1 year to sell the property.

However, if the beneficiary wants to retain ownership and not sell then the process you describe is required. Am I wrong?

[Cbr150r]

My research shows the same, either sell within one year or transfer the money into Thailand (and basically buy from yourself). The thing I haven't been able to confirm is if one can then immediately transfer the cash back out. Does anyone know if this is possible and provide a few details about the requirements of this immediate outgoing transfer?

[bkksiam]

My research shows the same, either sell within one year or transfer the money into Thailand (and basically buy from yourself). The thing I haven't been able to confirm is if one can then immediately transfer the cash back out. Does anyone know if this is possible and provide a few details about the requirements of this immediate outgoing transfer?

see thaivisa forum

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/641790-bequeathing-a-condo-is-there-a-cheaper-way/page-2

Posted 2013-05-25 11:49:14

"I believe that there is a way to avoid the issue of inheritance. You can go to the Land Registry Office, while you are still alive, and for a fee have anyone you want added to the ownership of the condo. I think that the fee is about 10,000 baht. The only catch is that the person you want to add must accompany you to the Land Registry Office."

[Delight]

My research shows the same, either sell within one year or transfer the money into Thailand (and basically buy from yourself). The thing I haven't been able to confirm is if one can then immediately transfer the cash back out. Does anyone know if this is possible and provide a few details about the requirements of this immediate outgoing transfer?

The FET certificate is a declaration that money was brought into Thailand.The land office only need to see this cert.

After the'transfer in' the money can be 'transferred out .The bank has all the evidence that it needs to provide this service. It is possible that a FET can be obtained after the money has returned. Check with the bank. All you need is the certificate,

If the condo is sold in the future the bank will only require a 'Bill of Sale'. This is issued by the land office. Given that this document is available then the proceeds from the sale can be transferred out-if required

Edited January 6, 2014 by Delight

[bkksiam]

My research shows the same, either sell within one year or transfer the money into Thailand (and basically buy from yourself). The thing I haven't been able to confirm is if one can then immediately transfer the cash back out. Does anyone know if this is possible and provide a few details about the requirements of this immediate outgoing transfer?

The FET certificate is a declaration that money was brought into Thailand.The land office only need to see this cert.

After the'transfer in' the money can be 'transferred out .The bank has all the evidence that it needs to provide this service. It is possible that a FET can be obtained after the money has returned. Check with the bank. All you need is the certificate,

If the condo is sold in the future the bank will only require a 'Bill of Sale'. This is issued by the land office. Given that this document is available then the proceeds from the sale can be transferred out-if required

Keep in mind that there can be a loss of money in transferring in/out since buying and selling currency rates are never the same. So you would need to time the transfers carefully, watch the rates and transfer in/out on days when the rates are in your favour.

[Jingthing]

This is pretty shocking information.

Maybe I'm not understanding this.

If the heir doesn't have the cash to purchase this asset he supposedly got for free, then he can't own it, yes?

But the heir can sell the asset within a year.

What happens to the asset if the heir does not buy or sell?

Who owns it then?

Can the heir just live in the condo indefinitely without being on the title, understanding without the name on the title, it could never be sold?

[Delight]

This is pretty shocking information.

Maybe I'm not understanding this.

If the heir doesn't have the cash to purchase this asset he supposedly got for free, then he can't own it, yes?

But the heir can sell the asset within a year.

What happens to the asset if the heir does not buy or sell?

Who owns it then?

Can the heir just live in the condo indefinitely without being on the title, understanding without the name on the title, it could never be sold?

All Wills in Thailand go to the court.The court official will declare ,if appropriate ,that the beneficiary now owns the condo. However it cannot be registered in his/her name until the land office is satisfied.

The beneficiary can sell it -and has one year to achieve this.

If this sale is not achieved -then the land office will sell it. They receive a percentage for their trouble.

They have no interest in obtaining a fair price.

I suspect that this has never actually happened.

If the stated owner dies outside Thailand with no Thai Will-then the property is in no man's land -legally speaking.

In which case there is no power in Thailand to stop a relative from claiming use of the property. All that is required is that the maintenance fees are paid.The condo can never be sold.

Clearly if this relative is known to the condo management -then things will be easier. All that the condo require is the fees.

This latter process will not work if several relatives make a claim

[Jingthing]

Still very confused.

So if an heir actually wants to live in the condo and doesn't have the cash to buy it, then they are better off not exercising a will if there is a will?!?

In the case of the heir exercising the will and not buying it, and not selling it, assuming then the land office sells it cheaply, but then the heir is definitely due the proceeds of the sale, minus commission?

More practically because living in a condo you don't actually own sounds dicey in the LONG TERM, sounds like the most practical thing is for heirs to just exercise the will and then SELL.

In that case, would Thai banks allow EXPORT of those funds as the heir would have no foreign exchange document?

Edited January 6, 2014 by Jingthing

[Delight]

Still very confused.

So if an heir actually wants to live in the condo and doesn't have the cash to buy it, then they are better off not exercising a will if there is a will?!?

In the case of the heir exercising the will and not buying it, and not selling it, assuming then the land office sells it cheaply, but then the heir is definitely due the proceeds of the sale, minus commission?

More practically because living in a condo you don't actually own sounds dicey in the LONG TERM, sounds like the most practical thing is for heirs to just exercise the will and then SELL.

In that case, would Thai banks allow EXPORT of those funds as the heir would have no foreign exchange document?

My post was simply to suggest options in the context of the O.P.

I can only repeat.-the heir does not buy the bequeathed condo. He /she simply bring funds into Thailand.

If the outcome of a Thai Will is a sale of the condo-then the land office will issue a 'Bill of Sale' This document authorises the bank to repatriate funds. This information was supplied to me by my bank.

All the foreigners that I know -who own property -plan to leave their assets to a Thai National -Wife or Girlfriend. This includes me.

[PattayaPhom]

PM sent;)

Sent from my ST27a using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Cbr150r]

My research shows the same, either sell within one year or transfer the money into Thailand (and basically buy from yourself). The thing I haven't been able to confirm is if one can then immediately transfer the cash back out. Does anyone know if this is possible and provide a few details about the requirements of this immediate outgoing transfer?

The FET certificate is a declaration that money was brought into Thailand.The land office only need to see this cert.

After the'transfer in' the money can be 'transferred out .The bank has all the evidence that it needs to provide this service. It is possible that a FET can be obtained after the money has returned. Check with the bank. All you need is the certificate,

If the condo is sold in the future the bank will only require a 'Bill of Sale'. This is issued by the land office. Given that this document is available then the proceeds from the sale can be transferred out-if required

Keep in mind that there can be a loss of money in transferring in/out since buying and selling currency rates are never the same. So you would need to time the transfers carefully, watch the rates and transfer in/out on days when the rates are in your favour.

Thank you Delight. I'll speak to my bank at some point and confirm if they are on the same page as your bank.

And thanks for your contribution bkksiam

[Jingthing]

Still very confused.

So if an heir actually wants to live in the condo and doesn't have the cash to buy it, then they are better off not exercising a will if there is a will?!?

In the case of the heir exercising the will and not buying it, and not selling it, assuming then the land office sells it cheaply, but then the heir is definitely due the proceeds of the sale, minus commission?

More practically because living in a condo you don't actually own sounds dicey in the LONG TERM, sounds like the most practical thing is for heirs to just exercise the will and then SELL.

In that case, would Thai banks allow EXPORT of those funds as the heir would have no foreign exchange document?

My post was simply to suggest options in the context of the O.P.

I can only repeat.-the heir does not buy the bequeathed condo. He /she simply bring funds into Thailand.

If the outcome of a Thai Will is a sale of the condo-then the land office will issue a 'Bill of Sale' This document authorises the bank to repatriate funds. This information was supplied to me by my bank.

All the foreigners that I know -who own property -plan to leave their assets to a Thai National -Wife or Girlfriend. This includes me.

Thanks for that, I'm afraid I still don't get this.

Suppose a condo if willed to a foreigner.

Suppose the condo was originally purchased for 3 million baht with a current value of 5 million baht.

You are saying the heir doesn't need to "buy" the condo but DOES need to transfer in (and out) an amount of money similar to the purchase of the condo, or not?

So in this case, how much approximately would the heir need to send to Thailand? And then they just send it out again?

Is that right?

Assuming I've got this (still not clear) if the heir doesn't have that large amount of money to play with, then they can never get their name on the title of the condo, correct?

Sorry if I'm slow about this. I really want to understand. Yes, this is matter of relevance to me, not an academic question.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Jingthing

[Delight]

Still very confused.

So if an heir actually wants to live in the condo and doesn't have the cash to buy it, then they are better off not exercising a will if there is a will?!?

In the case of the heir exercising the will and not buying it, and not selling it, assuming then the land office sells it cheaply, but then the heir is definitely due the proceeds of the sale, minus commission?

More practically because living in a condo you don't actually own sounds dicey in the LONG TERM, sounds like the most practical thing is for heirs to just exercise the will and then SELL.

In that case, would Thai banks allow EXPORT of those funds as the heir would have no foreign exchange document?

My post was simply to suggest options in the context of the O.P.

I can only repeat.-the heir does not buy the bequeathed condo. He /she simply bring funds into Thailand.

If the outcome of a Thai Will is a sale of the condo-then the land office will issue a 'Bill of Sale' This document authorises the bank to repatriate funds. This information was supplied to me by my bank.

All the foreigners that I know -who own property -plan to leave their assets to a Thai National -Wife or Girlfriend. This includes me.

Thanks for that, I'm afraid I still don't get this.

Suppose a condo if willed to a foreigner.

Suppose the condo was originally purchased for 3 million baht with a current value of 5 million baht.

You are saying the heir doesn't need to "buy" the condo but DOES need to transfer in (and out) an amount of money similar to the purchase of the condo, or not?

So in this case, how much approximately would the heir need to send to Thailand? And then they just send it out again?

Is that right?

Assuming I've got this (still not clear) if the heir doesn't have that large amount of money to play with, then they can never get their name on the title of the condo, correct?

Sorry if I'm slow about this. I really want to understand. Yes, this is matter of relevance to me, not an academic question.

The Land office has an appraised value of every property. A FET (Foreign Exchange Transfer) certificate has to be presented to the land office by the heir. The value on the FET should be at least this appraised value.The appraised value has nothing to do with the market value.

Money has to be transferred in (by the heir) for the sole purpose of obtaining the FET. When that has been obtained then I can see no reason to retain these funds in Thailand. That said it would probably be wise to repatriate the funds after the transfer has been completed.

No FET then no name transfer-as the O.P has discovered -hence his post -seeking info.on options.

The heir is allowed to sell the property -without the FET. If this is not achieved within 12 months ,then the land office will sell it for the heir. I assume that the property will go to auction. Thailand is not user friendly with respect to bequeathing properties.

So if you intend to bequeath a property to a foreigner then it is best to be organised ahead of time.

If you have a serious need -may I suggest that you summarize all the options that this post has generated - and submit

[Jingthing]

Thanks for that.

This language is still a bit fancy to me because this news remains shocking.

An heir of such a condo if he does not possess the money amount of the appraised value of the inherited condo to transfer to Thailand can not possibly get that condo in his name. Ever.

So if your heir doesn't have piles of cash, you're kind of creating a burden by willing a condo to such an heir, yes?

[Delight]

Thanks for that.

This language is still a bit fancy to me because this news remains shocking.

An heir of such a condo if he does not possess the money amount of the appraised value of the inherited condo to transfer to Thailand can not possibly get that condo in his name. Ever.

So if your heir doesn't have piles of cash, you're kind of creating a burden by willing a condo to such an heir, yes?

No FET no name transfer.

In practice most if not all condo -in this circumstance-are simply sold within the 12 months period.

The heir will have to visit Thailand probably more than once . It is only a burden if the heir cannot find the time. In which case he/she should be able to give Power of Attorney to his /her trusted representative.

The heir should always be a winner.

The 12 month rule is appropriate -in my opinion -otherwise bequeathed condos which are ignored still continue to attract costs-which overtime will be a burden for the paying co -owners. Condos can only be sold if they are debt free.

I am aware of several condos where the foreign registered owner died outside Thailand leaving no Thai will. They just sit there-potentially up to 10 years attracting costs -with no chance (legally speaking ) of generating any income.

I am advised that after 10 years they can be sold. This may or may not be true

Edited January 8, 2014 by Delight

[kotsak]

If I am not mistaken the same applies in the case where a Thai person buys a condo under his/her name and later decides to add his/her foreign spouse as a co-owner. The foreigner has to show the importerd dough otherwise it can't be done. In simple words, for a foreigner to own a condo in any way, i.e direct purchase, gift, inheritance, etc, he needs to show that he has imported money. Mind boggling but TIT.

[Delight]

If I am not mistaken the same applies in the case where a Thai person buys a condo under his/her name and later decides to add his/her foreign spouse as a co-owner. The foreigner has to show the importerd dough otherwise it can't be done. In simple words, for a foreigner to own a condo in any way, i.e direct purchase, gift, inheritance, etc, he needs to show that he has imported money. Mind boggling but TIT.

In the case of the name of the foreign spouse being added as a co -owner-this could be a good move since if she pre deceases him then he has some claim on the property. If not her family will probably get the lot -and insist that he leaves just taking his clothes.

[Langsuan Man]

Not to muck up an already mucked up thread, but, the original Foreign Exchange Certificate is attached to the Chanote at the Land Office, all you get back once the transfer is made is a copy of the FET and an original Chanote. (there are two created) The original FET and the second Chanote becomes part of the permanent file for the property at the Land Office

It is done this way so that the Land Office has a permanent record of who has owned the property since it was first registered at the Land Office

[rak sa_ngop]

One solution that is suggested in this thread is adding the name of the heir to the chanote as a co-owner.

In the event of the owner dying the owner's half the the property can be willed to the heir.

In the event of the co-owner dying the family of the co-owner (or others if so willed by the co-owner) might be able to claim half the property. However maybe this could be circumvented if the co-owner leaves a reciprocal will themselves.

So the question I have is can a co-owner's name (of a foreigner and not necessarily family) be added to a chanote title at a later date without producing an additional FET? Has anybody done this?

A previous reply suggests that this can be done for 10,000 baht. But can anybody confirm that they have done this successfully.

The only risk in the above arrangement that I can see would be the possibility of the co-owner subsequently writing a new will bequeathing his share of a condo to another party.

This topic of bequeathing a condo to a non-Thai friend is directly relevant to my situation so any helpful advice/experience would be greatly appreciated.

[Delight]

Chapter 2 Section 12 of the Condo Act reads:

Section 12. The ownership of the apartment is indivisible.

i.e the ownership cannot be divided.

At least one apartment in the condo where I live has 2 names (one Thai -One Foreign) on the Condo Title Deed . It is allocated in the Thai 51%.

This appears to be in conflict with Section 12. Why did the land office allow it to happen?

The law is very specific -'Ownership cannot be divided'

[FiftyTwo]

Forget the lawyers.

Go along to local Amphur office register a will using their forms leaving him everything and naming him as executor.

Costs about 30bht.

He doesn't even need to transfer the title after your death, as executor, up to him when (or if) he processes the property transfer.