Permanent residency - What's the latest news? Is it worth applying for?

[cnx37]

I have read about permanent residency requirements & past experiences in application - somewhat misleading, frustrating & time-consuming? I am 65yo & have had a retirement visa for 10+ years. It is becoming a small headache doing the 3 month visit & annual renewal (mainly remembering not to be late - a clean slate so far).

However, it seems that permanent residency success is a challenge & very time consuming.

I have the $$$, time in Thailand, type O visa, contribution to the community, acquaintances being reputable Thai citizens etc but -

(a) marriage situation - it seems that you must have a registered marriage? I am not legally married.

( be fluent in Thai - speaking, writing & reading. I can speak small-talk only - Phom ruk kuhn etc

These (& others things ??) are my challenges.

Can all interviews etc be conducted in Chiang Mai or must I travel to BKK?

I applied for a retirement visa without assistance but this appears to be a far greater challenge. If applicable, do you have any recommendations for lawyers who have quality experience in this area (CNX)? Estimate of fees for lawyer?

Where do I stand? Is it worth the effort? It is not that bad! My lady does the 3 month visit on my behalf & the queue service for this year's renewal in January 2014 was exceptional.

[yankee99]

Without out a job its a no go....

[beano2274]

With a retirement visa or extension you cannot apply for Permanent Residence.

[cnx37]

Thanks guys! I spoke with BKK & CNX lawyers re this topic. No mention of work requirement! I guess I will miss out on the fun of application for PR now.

[gamini]

Not worth the effort at your age. Also you would have to pay tax on all money you bring into Thailand. Retirement visa is so easy and inexpensive, You can post your 90 reports or have anyone do them for you

[Travel Dude]

Don't go for PR. It has absolutely no advantage for you. You even can't get a VAT refund at the airport anymore. I paid about 250.000 to get it and it has no advantage worth to mention. Stick with the retirement visa.

[Daniel Boon]

and the retirement visa costs?

[ubonjoe]

and the retirement visa costs?

In reality there is no retirement visa other than a OA long stay visa that you obtain at an embassy or consulate in your home country. The cost for it is the equivalent of 5000 baht. this gives a one year entry.

Non immigrant O visas based upon being 50 or over cost 2000 baht for a single entry and 5000 baht for a multiple entry visa. Each entry is 90 days.

One year extensions of stay based upon retirement cost 1900 baht immigration.

[mimi9000]

all incorrect answers i see.

You people are starting to act like foreigner who believe anything you hear from a grapevine.

For info, should check only with Thai Embassy.

Only they have the answers.

[Mario2008]

all incorrect answers i see.

You people are starting to act like foreigner who believe anything you hear from a grapevine.

For info, should check only with Thai Embassy.

Only they have the answers.

Thai embassies don't have anything to do with permanent residency.

[p_brownstone]

all incorrect answers i see.

You people are starting to act like foreigner who believe anything you hear from a grapevine.

For info, should check only with Thai Embassy.

Only they have the answers.

Would you like to correct the "incorrect" answers then Mimi - since you clearly think you know better?

Patrick

[Suradit69]

all incorrect answers i see.

You people are starting to act like foreigner who believe anything you hear from a grapevine.

For info, should check only with Thai Embassy.

Only they have the answers.

If only they have the answers, how can you know all the answers here are wrong?

Aside from the matter of visas, most everything else discussed would fall under the Immigrations Bureau, not Thai embassies.

[cnx37]

Now it seems that there are a number of opposing views! I have read other websites & they conflict too. One subscriber to Thaivisa indicated that he had applied for one & the legal costs were THB250k. He has been there, done that. He does not recommend it - few benefits & a number of disadvantages. It seems that Immigration (BKK) deserve another call or just forget it! At my age, it is not viable - financially. It is just convenient - no more dates to remember.

If BKK Immigration are helpful I will relate same to you guys.

Travel Dude - please resolve this matter - you have been there!

PS: I have another post seeking recommendations for valuation of expensive jewelery in Chiang Mai (certified valuation or a quality opinion) - very quiet!

Edited January 13, 2014 by cnx37

[ubonjoe]

Have a look here for info on requirements to get PR. http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/base.php?page=residence

[cnx37]

My LIMITED "understanding" is that we all know a little but few know sufficient!

Regardng eligibility - ONE of the following is required -

Investment category - B10m recently. If you arrived some time ago it is B3m - there are listed avenues for investment of funds

or

Earn at least B80k/mth (single) - B30k/mth (married) - for 2 consequtive years - lodge income tax return with annual income of B100k - why single people need to earn more baffles me!

or

Expert - Bachelor degree or higher - hold position relevant for 3 years - no disadvantage to Thai citizens

or

Humanity reasons - married, children or parents are Thai - support provider - 5 or more years

or

Others - "up to them"

Application fee - B7600 - non-refundable

After approval - B95700 - married

After approval - B191400 ??? - single

On the web -

Thai Laws - I tried to "Chat" - no response

Thaivisa50 - Can own land - I don't think so! - Thai citizenship for children

Expatforum - information quite clear

Thailandvisa - ???

JusLaws & Consult - good details

Thai Consulate Vancouver - good

There have been references to contact -

Thai Consulate

Thai Immigration - 02 287 3117

B of I (Thailand) - tel 02 553 8382

My best pick is -

Immigration Division 1 - Sub-Division 1

Immigration Bureau (Room 301) Soi Suan Plu (BKK)

Tel: 02 287 3117 - I found the line "Engaged" on numerous occasions - you need time & patience!

There was a link to Thai Police - result - "OOPS"

Then there is the language requirement - I did read that Grade 6 level @ primary school was required & that tests were applied during interview - speaking, reading & writing - a challenge for many of us? In your application, you need to display your contribution to Thai society, details of reputable Thai citizens (2) you know, medical certificate - other - see website - there is a checklist. I read one article of an applicant's personal experience at interview - very informative.

I tried telephoning - 1111 - disconnected

I tried one fo numerous mobile numbers provided - no answer.

It was suggested that you contact the Thai Embassy in your home country. I did not avail myself of this option - after hours!

I have been told that you must be legally married to a Thai citizen - I am unsure on this one. I doubt it as there are different application fees - married v single.

BENEFITS:

a) No need to bring $$$ into Thailand for property acquisition - so what - you have your $$$ here anyway

Gives "permanency" re residency - BIG PLUS!

c) No more trips to Immigration Office - BIG PLUS!

d) No need for work permit ??? - quite unsure on this one - so check it out!

e) House book entry

f) You can be a director of a Thai company

g) Other - I forgot!

DISADVANTAGES:

Subject to Thai income tax on $$$ (if you have $$$ in a Thai bank, there is a withholding tax @ 15% flat - no threshold!

SUMMARY

Contact Thai Immigration - 02 287 3117

Contact Thai Consulate in your home country

Is it worth it? Up to you!

I hold NO responsibility for any inaccuracies above - confusing/misleading?

[mrfaroukh]

You don't have to extend your retirement visa every 3 months, only report where you are. You can post the form to them. Hope one day the immigration will do it online process , so we can do it from the comfort of our home. Cheers til then.

And PR not worth it, I also read about it. Too much hastel

[Travel Dude]

CNX... to be able to get PR you need to have 3 years of consecutive stay in Thailand. You also need a company to sponsor you. The PR file is about 6 inches thick. If you are married to a Thai the fee you mentioned is correct. The single status fee you mentioned is also correct. But you need to add several other costs for translations, facilitation, start up fee of almost 8.000 etc... hence it cost me about 250 k.

Advantage: you can buy a condo with money that does not need to come from abroad.

NO you can not buy land.

YES you still need a work permit and the jobs available are only those as authorized to foreigners.

You need an endorsement/multiple entry visa at currently 3900 per year if you plan to travel abroad.

Save yourself all the trouble of all interviews, language tests, multiple documents, fingerprinting, stress, high fees and no guarantee etc... (Due to changes in government it took me 5 years and I was decently sponsored).

I would not do it again and if I would have known I would not have done it. Simply Too expensive for what you get compared to other options.

This is just my opinion after having gone through it, living and working here.

[THAIJAMES]

CNX... to be able to get PR you need to have 3 years of consecutive stay in Thailand. You also need a company to sponsor you. The PR file is about 6 inches thick. If you are married to a Thai the fee you mentioned is correct. The single status fee you mentioned is also correct. But you need to add several other costs for translations, facilitation, start up fee of almost 8.000 etc... hence it cost me about 250 k.

Advantage: you can buy a condo with money that does not need to come from abroad.

NO you can not buy land.

YES you still need a work permit and the jobs available are only those as authorized to foreigners.

You need an endorsement/multiple entry visa at currently 3900 per year if you plan to travel abroad.

Save yourself all the trouble of all interviews, language tests, multiple documents, fingerprinting, stress, high fees and no guarantee etc... (Due to changes in government it took me 5 years and I was decently sponsored).

I would not do it again and if I would have known I would not have done it. Simply Too expensive for what you get compared to other options.

This is just my opinion after having gone through it, living and working here.

I agree it was a lot of stress and probably not worth the effort, I applied in 2007 and still waiting for the interior minister to sign my application. With the current turmoil that could be another 6 years!

On the other hand I enjoy free automatic renewal of my visa while waiting for approval. I guess another 6 years of free visas would make up for all the time and effort.

[cnx37]

Travel Dude

Thanks - I agree with you 100%! Enough is enough.

Last time I went to the Immigration Office for my annual extension (OA), it was a dream run. With the new online queing system, rather than wait 3-4 hours, I was being interviewed prior to my scheduled appointment time! I got there early - waited 15 min for my name to be called. The whole interview was 10-15 min - just checking documentation. I waited 10 min for my updated passport. It was a full-house at CNX (standing room only) but this new system worked beautifully.

The biggest problem is booking the appointment online. You cannot book more than 100 days out. I leave that in the capable hands of my spouse. You need to be quick!

SUMMARY: I am a happy chappy just the way it is!

Edited January 13, 2014 by cnx37

[Arkady]

Not worth the effort at your age. Also you would have to pay tax on all money you bring into Thailand. Retirement visa is so easy and inexpensive, You can post your 90 reports or have anyone do them for you

Your tax status as a PR is no different from any other foreigner or Thai who spends over 180 days a year in Thailand. You don't need a Thai wife but you do need to have been working legally for 3 complete calendar years and applications are only accepted in December which means you have to have been working for 4 years. It may take several years to process the application.

[scorecard]

Now it seems that there are a number of opposing views! I have read other websites & they conflict too. One subscriber to Thaivisa indicated that he had applied for one & the legal costs were THB250k. He has been there, done that. He does not recommend it - few benefits & a number of disadvantages. It seems that Immigration (BKK) deserve another call or just forget it! At my age, it is not viable - financially. It is just convenient - no more dates to remember.

If BKK Immigration are helpful I will relate same to you guys.

Travel Dude - please resolve this matter - you have been there!

PS: I have another post seeking recommendations for valuation of expensive jewelery in Chiang Mai (certified valuation or a quality opinion) - very quiet!

I have PR, got it some 18 years ago.

Advantages: all in the eye of the holder, for me it's the security of not wondering / worrying whether my next one year / whatever visa might be rejected / might be complex / difficult because of some new regulation, etc.

I have adult children and several grandchildren born her, being with them until I die without visa complications is very important to me. i), simply to be with my loving family. ii). I'm now quite old and I need their care. PR gives me peace on mind on these points. As said, the advantages are in the eye of the holder.

When I applied the regulations concerned stated that you could apply if you had work permits (copies) covering a total of at least the last three years and could provided documents to prove your personal taxes in Thailand had been officially finalized for the same three years, at least.

In reality at that time, immigration would not accept applications unless you could provide all of the above covering at least the last 7 years.

18 years ago around 99% of applications were rejected. There was an annual quota per country but in reality the quota were not filled. I know the annual quota for my old country was, at that time was 50. I heard later (from my agent) that I was the only person who got it from my country for that year.

From anecdotal comments it seems it's still something similar today.

Costs:

1. Non refundable application fee (I don't know what it is today, when I did it 18 years ago the fee was 2,000Baht)

2. Agents fee, if you use an agent (cost - case by case. I used an agent, cost me 5,000Baht, 18 years ago).

3. Smoothing fees - who knows, case by case, maybe nil.

4. Costs of getting numerous documents translated into Thai and stamped at your own embassy.

5. Costs of getting a police statement from your own country saying that you don't have a criminal record.

6. The ultimate fee when / if it's granted:

4.a. If your married, last I heard, the fee was about 90,000Baht (18 years ago it was around 20,000Baht)

4.b. If your single, last I heard it's around 200,000BAht (18 years ago it was 50,000Baht)

Note:

1. Many folks have the idea that if your married / have kids then you have a better chance of getting PR compared to single people. 18 years back my agent (new to this activity) asked this question to the senior immigration captain in charge of PR applications at Soi Suan Plu. His answer: the application is about the individual concerned, married / kids has no bearing whatever. Maybe that's changed, somehow I doubt it.

2. If you get it, the approval letter is signed by a very senior government official, my letter was signed by General Prem.

Edited January 14, 2014 by scorecard

[stbkk]

its a pretty subjective judgment as to if it is worth while or not.

In purely financial terms, certainly not.
- Even doing all of the work yourself (which I did, and its pretty straghtforward, if time-consuming) there are a lot of costs for translations, time etc.
- Then when finished and approved the re-entry permits are actually more expensive than for non-PR's. Of course if you do not ever leave the country you don't need one.
- And also there is the big cost of the PR itself, which is the best part of 100k even if you are married.

However, the other side is the peace of mind factor.
- No more contact with immigration for 90 days reporting etc.
- No more exposure to changes in rules for extensions etc. E.g. increases in retirement extension amounts, requirements for marriage visa etc.
- While they have tightened the criteria for application and approval over the years, once granted thats it.
- Security of stay. I was previously on an extension linked to my work permit, so if I had lost my job would have had to leave the country the same day! Now It has no impact at all, I do not have to worry about showing income or money in the bank for extensions etc.

it was a lot of effort, and a long wait, but on balance I think I would still do it again, just for the peace of mind factor.

Edited January 14, 2014 by stbkk

[yankee99]

If your married is there a reason to get PR if you are allowed dual citizenship? I would think it better to just go for full citizenship...

[stbkk]

You are right, if you are married to a Thai you can go straght for citizenship.

But I understand you have to provide a letter announcing your intention to renounce your original citizenship when granted Thai citizenship. I personally am not prepared to do that, although obviously thats a personal choice.

[ghworker2010]

they make it so hard for us farang

[Mario2008]

Such letter is required, but it is only an intention. You do not have to actually renounce your citizenship. So if you qualify apply now, before they change the rules to that you have to actually renounce your nationality.

[JHenry]

Remember that for the retirement visa you have to keep 800K in your bank account to the rest of your life. This money do not belong to you anymore, but they, of course, will go to your wife or kids or others depending on your will. Now compare this with 90K for PR. For someone it probably makes sense to spend those 710K while you are among the living and do not walk to the immigration every 90 days, but for some it is ok to keep it forever in the bank and the immigration office could be fun too. Your choice. But you have to apply for PR while working here at least 3 years having a salary at least 80K per month. All the retirees -forget about it. Married to Thai? Lived here 2X years, does not matter. Work. Earn.

[Mario2008]

Married to a Thai makes the fee for PR 90K, otherwise it is double the price.

Actualy the rules do allow to apply for PR based on your Thai spouses income, (although i don't know of anyone that was approved based on the income of his Thai wife). The income requirement is also lower.

And as has been mentione, being married to a Thai national allows you to apply for Thai nationality directly.

So marriage does count.

[Tomtomtom69]

You are right, if you are married to a Thai you can go straght for citizenship.

But I understand you have to provide a letter announcing your intention to renounce your original citizenship when granted Thai citizenship. I personally am not prepared to do that, although obviously thats a personal choice.

I haven't heard that one. Rather, I've been told you should not try to present yourself as a foreign citizen anymore when in Thailand and any attempt to do so would be an infringement upon the rights and obligations as a Thai citizen. On the other hand, strangely Thailand does not have a law that says a citizen of Thailand that is also a citizen of another country must use their Thai passport to enter the country. Basically a dual citizen could their other citizenship to enter Thailand and then be subject to the same laws that govern other foreigners and be prepared to pay an overstay fine if they "overstay" yet they are due to their Thai citizenship allowed to stay permanently!

[Arkady]

A good friend just called me in some distress, saying that he is seriously considering leaving Thailand due to unexpected visa problems. He and his foreign wife have been happily retired in Thailand for nearly 10 years. On a recent visit to their home country the Thai Embassy surprised them by telling them they could no longer issue them new visas, although they have obtained them there for several years, and told them to go to Immigration in Bkk. Before they could get back to Thailand their visas had expired and they were forced to enter on tourist visas. Immigration has told him that he can only get a 90 day extension because his visa was broken and rejected his wife's application because the joint bank account they have shown for the 800k for the last 9 years is no longer acceptable, although he has certified retired income for himself, so is not using the bank account for his application. He tried to open a new bank account for her but was told by the bank that was not possible without a 1 year visa. Finally he pleaded with someone he knew in another bank to open an account for her but I still don't know, if Immigration will accept an unseasoned account.

This and many similar stories are the main reason I am happy to have PR. When I applied PR was also the only route to Thai citizenship which I have applied for.