Thai Rice sale to China delayed by legal limbo over 'caretaker' powers

[Old Man River]

Does someone actually feel sorry for these farmers? Aren't they the ones who tried to line their own pockets by voting for crooks?

Yes, everyone feels sorry for them. It would be nice if the govt were permitted to actually get on with shifting the rice, getting the income, paying the farmers. But no, we have a clutch of pedantic , bureaucratic obstructionists determined to block what is so clearly in the best interests of everyone.

The majority of the debt to the farmers, which needs to be paid ASAP, should have been paid prior to the protests. If paid when due, the protests would not have been an issue here.

BAAC can forgive farmers debts in interim. Will help some, but not those using moneylenders.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Thai at Heart]

Does someone actually feel sorry for these farmers? Aren't they the ones who tried to line their own pockets by voting for crooks?

Yes, everyone feels sorry for them. It would be nice if the govt were permitted to actually get on with shifting the rice, getting the income, paying the farmers. But no, we have a clutch of pedantic , bureaucratic obstructionists determined to block what is so clearly in the best interests of everyone.

So what's the excuse, for the government's failure to sell the growing stocks of rice, or pay the poor rice-farmers when due, four or five months ago before the election was called ?

No excuse, it was a very bad policy. But they should be allowed to get on with getting the best deal they can and pay the farmers. Yes, that will be at a loss to the govt...a failed policy in a very bad market for rice. But they shouldn't be cornered by bureaucrats., IMHO

There is no sale and there is no deal.

In fairness, if someone is going to incur losses deliberately on a deal I would suggest that should not be allowed to continue during a period of elections.

Just imagine if this was permitted on any other policy. The government could go on a spending spree to buy elections endlessly.

[whybother]

No. Deficits of hundreds of billions of Baht. Disastrous. Korn did improve things but not Abhisit. Korn could easily be on the verge of joining ....someone you don't like....watch this space...

How can you say Korn improved things but not Abhisit? Aren't they on the same team?

[Valentine]

No. Deficits of hundreds of billions of Baht. Disastrous. Korn did improve things but not Abhisit. Korn could easily be on the verge of joining ....someone you don't like....watch this space...

How can you say Korn improved things but not Abhisit? Aren't they on the same team?

Could be a troll post unless he can come up with some facts & figures. Also seems to imply Korn will join forces with PTP or perhaps referring to some Buri Ram connection.

[zydeco]

Jesus was right to cleanse the temple of the moneylenders. A lesson lost in history.

[SICHONSTEVE]

No. Deficits of hundreds of billions of Baht. Disastrous. Korn did improve things but not Abhisit. Korn could easily be on the verge of joining ....someone you don't like....watch this space...

How can you say Korn improved things but not Abhisit? Aren't they on the same team?

Could be a troll post unless he can come up with some facts & figures. Also seems to imply Korn will join forces with PTP or perhaps referring to some Buri Ram connection.

He couldn't join PTP if he wanted to as he is intelligent!!!

[SICHONSTEVE]

No. Deficits of hundreds of billions of Baht. Disastrous. Korn did improve things but not Abhisit. Korn could easily be on the verge of joining ....someone you don't like....watch this space...

How can you say Korn improved things but not Abhisit? Aren't they on the same team?

Just humour him!!

[Dogmatix]

The EC should not get sucked into this tangled web of thievery at the risk of being charged with malfeasance later when it turns out the rice was never shipped to China but went to Cambodia for on-shipment to Thailand and re-pledging. The caretaker government can't be trusted to sell the rice in a transparent way with all proceeds going to the famers who produced it and haven't been paid. They are too deeply embroiled in corrupt schemes to reform themselves to do even one clean deal. Even after receiving permission to go ahead the Commerce Ministry would still be told to keep the details a state secret. Hang them out to dry and let them pay the farmers from their own corrupt pockets.

[Prbkk]

No. Deficits of hundreds of billions of Baht. Disastrous. Korn did improve things but not Abhisit. Korn could easily be on the verge of joining ....someone you don't like....watch this space...

How can you say Korn improved things but not Abhisit? Aren't they on the same team?

Just humour him!!

Check back in February 16th and see what structure is in place ...I might be wrong

[SICHONSTEVE]

No. Deficits of hundreds of billions of Baht. Disastrous. Korn did improve things but not Abhisit. Korn could easily be on the verge of joining ....someone you don't like....watch this space...

How can you say Korn improved things but not Abhisit? Aren't they on the same team?

Just humour him!!

Check back in February 16th and see what structure is in place ...I might be wrong

You usually are.

[Crushdepth]

The next fake G2G rice deal is held up?

[Prbkk]

I don't like these shadowy schemes either...rice, cars. Even less when they lead to debt. But i feel very strongly that the farmers went into this scheme in good faith and must be paid. I am sure they will be paid. One can only hope that the economic development and increasing propsperity in Isaan will be on stronger foundations over the next decade.

[Cuchulainn]

Yes, the farmers entered this scam (sorry, .....deal) in good faith, but they were dealing with vicious, corrupt ,republican vermin

[SICHONSTEVE]

I don't like these shadowy schemes either...rice, cars. Even less when they lead to debt. But i feel very strongly that the farmers went into this scheme in good faith and must be paid. I am sure they will be paid. One can only hope that the economic development and increasing propsperity in Isaan will be on stronger foundations over the next decade.

So you don't like any of the PTP parties schemes then by the sound of it and admit that they are shadowy.

Then you say that the farmers entered into the scam in good faith and must be paid - fair enough, but what you fail to realise is that the government didn't enter into this scheme in good faith and won't be able to pay them out!!

You still support this government though!! The mind boggles at the sheer lunacy of it all .

With the Isaanites (or whatever you wish to call them) suffer any more of these idiots ripping them off then the future will look more like the 'dark ages' to them as they scrape a livelihood in the forest!!!

[Prbkk]

I don't like these shadowy schemes either...rice, cars. Even less when they lead to debt. But i feel very strongly that the farmers went into this scheme in good faith and must be paid. I am sure they will be paid. One can only hope that the economic development and increasing propsperity in Isaan will be on stronger foundations over the next decade.

So you don't like any of the PTP parties schemes then by the sound of it and admit that they are shadowy.

Then you say that the farmers entered into the scam in good faith and must be paid - fair enough, but what you fail to realise is that the government didn't enter into this scheme in good faith and won't be able to pay them out!!

You still support this government though!! The mind boggles at the sheer lunacy of it all:clap2: .

With the Isaanites (or whatever you wish to call them) suffer any more of these idiots ripping them off then the future will look more like the 'dark ages' to them as they scrape a livelihood in the forest!!!

On the contrary: Thailand's dependence on rice will decline but Isaan will become an industrial and logistics hub for Thailand. The future is very bright indeed. Of course that will not happen under the old gang, with their vested interest in repression and poverty...but, correct, I'm not supporting that. The old guard is not coming back

[JesseFrank]

No. Deficits of hundreds of billions of Baht. Disastrous. Korn did improve things but not Abhisit. Korn could easily be on the verge of joining ....someone you don't like....watch this space...

How can you say Korn improved things but not Abhisit? Aren't they on the same team?

Just humour him!!

Check back in February 16th and see what structure is in place ...I might be wrong

What is special about February 16th ? Why particular that date ?

[Prbkk]

nothing specific... just my estimate and opinon

[SICHONSTEVE]

I don't like these shadowy schemes either...rice, cars. Even less when they lead to debt. But i feel very strongly that the farmers went into this scheme in good faith and must be paid. I am sure they will be paid. One can only hope that the economic development and increasing propsperity in Isaan will be on stronger foundations over the next decade.

So you don't like any of the PTP parties schemes then by the sound of it and admit that they are shadowy.

Then you say that the farmers entered into the scam in good faith and must be paid - fair enough, but what you fail to realise is that the government didn't enter into this scheme in good faith and won't be able to pay them out!!

You still support this government though!! The mind boggles at the sheer lunacy of it all:clap2: .

With the Isaanites (or whatever you wish to call them) suffer any more of these idiots ripping them off then the future will look more like the 'dark ages' to them as they scrape a livelihood in the forest!!!

On the contrary: Thailand's dependence on rice will decline but Isaan will become an industrial and logistics hub for Thailand. The future is very bright indeed. Of course that will not happen under the old gang, with their vested interest in repression and poverty...but, correct, I'm not supporting that. The old guard is not coming back

You really think so - is this going to happen overnight?

What makes you so sure the future is so bright?

If the Democrats vested interests are in repression and poverty then why did they implement several policies that actually benefitted the poor and vulnerable such as abolishing Thaksin's 30 baht healthcare scheme, allowing free use of electricity, lowering taxes on farmers with smaller plots of land, placing the oil price ceiling at 'no more' than 30 baht/litre, as well as providing free schooling for 15 years rather than 12 etc:

What did Yingluck do when she usurped power? she abolished most of these policies BECAUSE they weren't her brother's ideas, the price of oil and rice went up, she forced them to pay for their electricity and reintroduced Thaksin's 30 baht health scheme!!!!

So much for the caring PTP party - they develop policies to aid rampant corruption because that's what they excel at!!!

[SICHONSTEVE]

nothing specific... just my estimate and opinon

yours or the soothsayers that Yingluck listens to!!

[EyesWideOpen]

I don't like these shadowy schemes either...rice, cars. Even less when they lead to debt. But i feel very strongly that the farmers went into this scheme in good faith and must be paid. I am sure they will be paid. One can only hope that the economic development and increasing propsperity in Isaan will be on stronger foundations over the next decade.

So you don't like any of the PTP parties schemes then by the sound of it and admit that they are shadowy.

Then you say that the farmers entered into the scam in good faith and must be paid - fair enough, but what you fail to realise is that the government didn't enter into this scheme in good faith and won't be able to pay them out!!

You still support this government though!! The mind boggles at the sheer lunacy of it all:clap2: .

With the Isaanites (or whatever you wish to call them) suffer any more of these idiots ripping them off then the future will look more like the 'dark ages' to them as they scrape a livelihood in the forest!!!

On the contrary: Thailand's dependence on rice will decline but Isaan will become an industrial and logistics hub for Thailand. The future is very bright indeed. Of course that will not happen under the old gang, with their vested interest in repression and poverty...but, correct, I'm not supporting that. The old guard is not coming back

Without education, Isan is not going to become an industrial hub.....

[SICHONSTEVE]

I don't like these shadowy schemes either...rice, cars. Even less when they lead to debt. But i feel very strongly that the farmers went into this scheme in good faith and must be paid. I am sure they will be paid. One can only hope that the economic development and increasing propsperity in Isaan will be on stronger foundations over the next decade.

So you don't like any of the PTP parties schemes then by the sound of it and admit that they are shadowy.

Then you say that the farmers entered into the scam in good faith and must be paid - fair enough, but what you fail to realise is that the government didn't enter into this scheme in good faith and won't be able to pay them out!!

You still support this government though!! The mind boggles at the sheer lunacy of it all:clap2: .

With the Isaanites (or whatever you wish to call them) suffer any more of these idiots ripping them off then the future will look more like the 'dark ages' to them as they scrape a livelihood in the forest!!!

On the contrary: Thailand's dependence on rice will decline but Isaan will become an industrial and logistics hub for Thailand. The future is very bright indeed. Of course that will not happen under the old gang, with their vested interest in repression and poverty...but, correct, I'm not supporting that. The old guard is not coming back

Without education, Isan is not going to become an industrial hub.....

...and they wouldn't know what education is even if it slapped them in the face - so no hub here I'm afraid!!!

[Neurath]

Not sure but I think this is what has happened:

1. PTP promises to pay THB15,000 per ton should it win government

2. Government to purchase harvest directly

3. How much the government is acutually going to end up paying will depend on harvest size and world rice price

4. Government thinks that by witholding rice from world market will increase price.

5. Promise of 15,000 per ton increases production in Thailand hence increases the amount owed by government

6. Increased production in Vietnam etc leads to stagnant/lower than expected world price meaning govenment cannot sell without incurring increased losses.

7. Members of government/beauracracy import rice from Burma/Cambodia and, pretending that it's Thai rice, get paid the 15,000 that should have been for Thai farmers

8. Goverment now cannot sell the rice stock without reducing world prices and so increasing losses incurred. Must pretend that it can be swapped for high speed trains etc.

So the government will have to pay the farmers. They'll have to sell the rice mountain at a considerable loss and the loss will have to made up by government recipts (taxes) elsewhere.

In short a very effective way to transfer wealth to the farmers and to the pockets of some members of the current government.

[Thai at Heart]

I don't like these shadowy schemes either...rice, cars. Even less when they lead to debt. But i feel very strongly that the farmers went into this scheme in good faith and must be paid. I am sure they will be paid. One can only hope that the economic development and increasing propsperity in Isaan will be on stronger foundations over the next decade.

So you don't like any of the PTP parties schemes then by the sound of it and admit that they are shadowy.

Then you say that the farmers entered into the scam in good faith and must be paid - fair enough, but what you fail to realise is that the government didn't enter into this scheme in good faith and won't be able to pay them out!!

You still support this government though!! The mind boggles at the sheer lunacy of it all:clap2: .

With the Isaanites (or whatever you wish to call them) suffer any more of these idiots ripping them off then the future will look more like the 'dark ages' to them as they scrape a livelihood in the forest!!!

On the contrary: Thailand's dependence on rice will decline but Isaan will become an industrial and logistics hub for Thailand. The future is very bright indeed. Of course that will not happen under the old gang, with their vested interest in repression and poverty...but, correct, I'm not supporting that. The old guard is not coming back

Without education, Isan is not going to become an industrial hub.....

You forget to notice that a huge amount of the people employed in the eastern seaboard and other light and heavy industries are from isaan?

You ever driven up 304 at new year or songkran?

[Crushdepth]

I don't like these shadowy schemes either...rice, cars. Even less when they lead to debt. But i feel very strongly that the farmers went into this scheme in good faith and must be paid. I am sure they will be paid. One can only hope that the economic development and increasing propsperity in Isaan will be on stronger foundations over the next decade.

So you don't like any of the PTP parties schemes then by the sound of it and admit that they are shadowy.

Then you say that the farmers entered into the scam in good faith and must be paid - fair enough, but what you fail to realise is that the government didn't enter into this scheme in good faith and won't be able to pay them out!!

You still support this government though!! The mind boggles at the sheer lunacy of it all:clap2: .

With the Isaanites (or whatever you wish to call them) suffer any more of these idiots ripping them off then the future will look more like the 'dark ages' to them as they scrape a livelihood in the forest!!!

On the contrary: Thailand's dependence on rice will decline but Isaan will become an industrial and logistics hub for Thailand. The future is very bright indeed. Of course that will not happen under the old gang, with their vested interest in repression and poverty...but, correct, I'm not supporting that. The old guard is not coming back

Labour costs are far cheaper in all neighbouring countries with the possible exception of Malaysia, and the work ethic stronger.

Could work if the government would get stuck into training and education, but what are the chances of that?

[Thaddeus]

Not sure but I think this is what has happened:

1. PTP promises to pay THB15,000 per ton should it win government

2. Government to purchase harvest directly

3. How much the government is acutually going to end up paying will depend on harvest size and world rice price

4. Government thinks that by witholding rice from world market will increase price.

5. Promise of 15,000 per ton increases production in Thailand hence increases the amount owed by government

6. Increased production in Vietnam etc leads to stagnant/lower than expected world price meaning govenment cannot sell without incurring increased losses.

7. Members of government/beauracracy import rice from Burma/Cambodia and, pretending that it's Thai rice, get paid the 15,000 that should have been for Thai farmers

8. Goverment now cannot sell the rice stock without reducing world prices and so increasing losses incurred. Must pretend that it can be swapped for high speed trains etc.

So the government will have to pay the farmers. They'll have to sell the rice mountain at a considerable loss and the loss will have to made up by government recipts (taxes) elsewhere.

In short a very effective way to transfer wealth to the farmers and to the pockets of some members of the current government.

Almost right, if you changed the word farmers into millers and poo yais, it would have been spot on.

[easybullet3]

Well SOMEONE has done OK out of this SCAM .... And it AINT the Farmer ......

i dont know the full story,,

but it seems strange that china would need to buy rice !!!!

[Ricardo]

Not sure but I think this is what has happened:

1. PTP promises to pay THB15,000 per ton should it win government

2. Government to purchase harvest directly

3. How much the government is acutually going to end up paying will depend on harvest size and world rice price

4. Government thinks that by witholding rice from world market will increase price.

5. Promise of 15,000 per ton increases production in Thailand hence increases the amount owed by government

6. Increased production in Vietnam etc leads to stagnant/lower than expected world price meaning govenment cannot sell without incurring increased losses.

7. Members of government/beauracracy import rice from Burma/Cambodia and, pretending that it's Thai rice, get paid the 15,000 that should have been for Thai farmers

8. Goverment now cannot sell the rice stock without reducing world prices and so increasing losses incurred. Must pretend that it can be swapped for high speed trains etc.

So the government will have to pay the farmers. They'll have to sell the rice mountain at a considerable loss and the loss will have to made up by government recipts (taxes) elsewhere.

In short a very effective way to transfer wealth to the farmers and to the pockets of some members of the current government.

"the loss will have to be made up by government receipts (taxes) elsewhere."

Except that, as recent experience has shown, the massive losses on this scheme have been financed by borrowing instead, and I suspect that the repayments will be covered by further borrowing, under the flood-control scheme & the dodgy-50-year-infrastructure scheme, repayments out-of-income will be made tomorrow (and tomorrow never comes) under Thaksin/PTP.

One positive note, the recent fall in the value of the Baht does increase the Baht-value of the exports, when achieved, so mitigates the depressed world market prices to a degree.

"a very effective way to transfer wealth to ... some members of the current government"

With a good knowledge of the (secret/confidential) actual stocks held & prices paid, and of short/medium-term Thai-government-policy, it should also be possible to make a fortune by futures-speculating in rice-contracts, were one some shady business-type located somewhere offshore.

[kimamey]

However much has gone missing from the rice scheme, much of it has filtered down to the farmers. The Isaan is booming, largely as a result of it. Now that the baht has weakened and the rice is saleable on the open market, 'Legal Experts' (read Ruling Elite) will decide if the government can sign a long term contract with China. Jealousy of the farmers will probably mean they wont allow it. They'd rather see the government embarrassed by stockpiles that were caused by their own insistence on a strong baht!

Issan is booming --you said, WHERE ?? Much of the money has filtered down to the farmer which farmer, certainly not the little farm man that voted for PTP.

Maybe you are getting mixed up with the giant farmer that has-the big business ones that have benefitted along with the other pilferers.

Isaan is booming everywhere.

Isaan now has the highest GDP growth in the whole of Thailand. Land prices and house prices are rising fastest in Isaan.

Why do you think the Bangkok elite are jealous ?

This is not a rice scam, it is a rice subsidy. Channeling money to the poor by way of giving them a higher price for their rice. All very simple and subsidies are not illegal. Most governments all over the world use subsidies for various things to keep the masses happy where needed.

I don't know if it's true but I heard it's the rich in Bangkok who are buying the land in Isaan which is putting up the prices. Whether this will have a long term beneficial effect is another matter.

There could be an improvement for some farmers who are getting higher prices but how long will it last. The government has already tried once to cut back on the scheme but had to back of because of protests. There may also be an increase in loans taken out by farmers based on the expectation of continued higher income.

Edited January 20, 2014 by kimamey

[kimamey]

This lack of funds to buy the rice vote up north is the chum in the water that is smelled by the opposition. A golden chance to prove to the Issan voters exactly what kind of duplicitous slime they have been voting for. All the promises were kept over the years by financial legerdemain and trickery, but now the bottom line has good deeply red and those in Issan not deeply red are beginning to realise the reality not the rosy pictures painted by the propaganda machine.

So now we get a do or die rally to remove the PTP puppets from the controls,

and prevent them 'Taking from Somchai to pay Boonchaing'...

This goes two ways in my opinion :

Way 1, a clean and non-corrupt opposition party who are seen as supremely Democratic and not at all biased to Palm Oil and Rubber in the south, whose leaders have not been exposed to lots of land scandals and palm oil scandals and all sorts, whose leaders have not been charged with murder for sending the Army in with live ammo to kill protestors, rises up and is seen by Isaan as the saviours.

Way 2, Isaan folk see the delays as all being caused by self serving, corrupt, anti-Democracy, poll boycotters who have sold their souls to the Amart time and time again. They blame everything on these people and come out and strongly vote for PTP.

Given the parties that do not want elections it seems that Way 2 is the way. If Way 1 was the way the Dems would not be having a boycott.

As for the rice payment protests, there has to be some, for if there were no protests there would be no resentment to lead to way 1 or way 2.

Its also great future PR for PTP if they win the election. They can say with no rice payments and rice farmers having protests they still won the election, which proves the rice subsidy is not a vote buying tool. Thanks Suthep

The trouble for the Democrat Party is that they must find a way to delay the election, for if they believe Way 1 is happening they need to reset the election process back to Day 1 so they can now sign up for the election, now that their friends have blocked out all ways to payments to the farmers and made payment to the farmers late.

So the friends of the Democrat Party will be pushing for reset, or delay and reset, so they can now all sign up to contest the election. But of course, the Constitution does not allow for a delay and PTP are following the rules. Whooops............

Just my opinion on things.

I would agree that there is corruption on the part of the Democrats and this is one of the things holding back Abhisit as he appears at least to be a bit more honest there are a couple of problems with your theories.

Abhisit and Suthep have been charged with murder they haven't been tried and convicted. I've mentioned on numerous occasions with , as far as I know no contradiction, that the evidence so far shows that the fault lies not with the orders given to the army but with their failure to abide by those ROE. This would mean that the PTP who promised justice for those killed are, instead of going after those responsible are using those deaths to attack Abhisit and Suthep for political reasons and it would seem as a lever to get support for the amnesty for Thaksin.

Don't forget that Thaksin has had to apologise before for giving a speech focused on him whilst forgetting those that supported him. The amnesty bill which looked to most people to be an attempt by the 'it's not all about Thaksin party' to be all about Thaksin is what brought about these protests. There was a definite split which anti government movement tried to take advantage of because the amnesty included Abhisit and Suthep as a way to get Thaksin covered and this angered many red shirts. Whether the government supporters know this or are just listening to what they're told I don't know but I'd be surprised if many of them know what the ROE were at the time.

The other point is that the Democrats have boycotted this election not all elections. They want reforms first then elections. I don't know if this is the right way to go about it or if their reforms will improve things but tie will tell I suppose.

[kimamey]

Country loss on state vs. tax payer money from this idiotic scheme

870.280.000.000 Baht (gone)

Does Suthep know this? Why is this not on Thai TV? Headlines in all newspapers? Why aren't the populace taking to the streets in protest ....oh.

There are no figures released, a lot of the data is not in public view.

Therefore your claims on figures are misleading in my opinion.

You cannot claim to know how much of a deficit the scheme has run, so please, clearly state the figure is just your fantasy opinion only. And the money is not lost, it has not disappeared. You mean only to say the scheme has run at a loss as the money has been distributed across rice farmers, millers, dealers etc............ so the money is not LOST as you claim, its not vanished.

You're correct that the loss can't be calculated without the figures and the government has said this themselves and that the figures won't be available until the end of the scheme but there were figures given by a woman who was moved from her post. There have also been government ministers who, despite this have given figures which they claim are more accurate and of course the claim that it isn't running at a loss which would make the whole exercise pointless if it were true.

The problem seems to be the government can't seem to get its lies and misinformation straight before some idiot decides they like the sound of their own voice and does exactly what you correctly claim is impossible.