UK general visitor visa for new Thai girlfriend - too soon to apply?

[ljx]

Hi all, and thanks for a really useful forum. After an extensive read of the UK Border Agency website and reading about 20 topics on here, I would still value some advice if possible.

My question:

I met a Thai lady on Koh Chang just before Christmas. I've already booked a flight to visit her over Easter (mid April) and want to help her with and sponsor a General Visitor (Visiting Friends) visa so she can visit me in the UK later this year, ideally around August for 1-3 months. If I apply in April, is it too soon to show that we have a genuine relationship?

In detail:

We've talked a lot already, and if all goes well there's a realistic prospect that we will marry and she will want to settle here. While it's too early to plan or commit to that, I would still like to see her as much as possible in 2014 so that we can get to know each other better. I visit in April, hopefully she makes an extended visit in August, and then I visit again for Christmas. After that... who knows.

Some more questions:

1. If we met at Christmas, and I visit in April, will it be too soon to convince the UKBA that we are in a genuine relationship?

2. Is it practical to make the visa application when I return to Thailand in April? I would bring all the original documentation, e.g. bank statements, but then she would need to apply quickly before the documentation ceases to be current. Do they need my passport, as obviously I can't leave this in Thailand and travel back?

3. If we wait until after my April visit, what are the practicalities of sending original documents to Thailand from the UK? I can live with sending bank statements, but do they need my original passport? Is there a reliable postal service in Thailand?

4. I plan to send her 20,000 Baht every month by Western Union. Does it help to show this?

5. Family: She has a four year old boy but she doesn't live with him; he is looked after by a close friend. I will spend 5 nights with them in April and obviously take photos etc, but probably won't get around to meeting other family members. Is this likely to be a big factor? (Note, she won't be bringing her son on her first visit to the UK.)

6. Marital status: she is currently separated from a husband who lives in Canada (she has never been there). They married in Thailand a few years ago and I don't know how soon a divorce can come through. Will this present a problem?

7. Job: she has been working at a friend's bar in Koh Chang but is looking for work on the mainland, probably as a waitress in a restaurant or similar. So I don't yet know if she can get a letter from her employer holding the job open, especially if she wants to visit me for 3 months. To be honest, it would be easy for her to leave her job and find a new job on her return, but I don't suppose the UKBA will look favourably on that plan. Has anyone managed to get a visa in such circumstances?

8. Other reasons for her to return to Thailand. Maybe she could enrol for a course that starts on her return, e.g. to study English. Would that help? Also, if I book a non-refundable flight to Thailand at Christmas to see her again, and book internal flights/hotels around Thailand for the two of us, would that evidence help to support her intention to return?

Sorry for so many questions; an answer to only some is better than no answer. Thanks.

[theoldgit]

First of all you seem to have grasped the point that it's your girlfriends application and you can do no more than assist with the preparation of the application, it's her that needs to convince the Entry Clearance Officer that her trip is genuine, affordable and, on the balance of probability, she will return home at the conclusion of her holiday, or at least leave the UK.

I have given a view on each of your points below.

1. You met the young lady just before Christmas, it seems you met in a bar. So you have known her for about a month and have probably spent a few days in her company. You intend spending some time with her, you don't say how long, in April. To be quite honest I think the ECO will take some convincing that she is a genuine visitor and that it's appropriate for you to sponsor her, that said many such applications do get approved, the time you have known the lady is only one part of the equation, but likewise many don't.

2. She could make her application in April, if granted her visa could be post dated for 90 days and would probably be issued for 6 months, she would need to specify in her application that she wanted her application post dated. If approved this would ensure her application was valid for the duration of her holiday.

3. As she can apply in April this question isn't really relevant, but she only needs to submit a copy of your passport not the original. In my experience the postal service in Thailand is pretty good, but others have had different experience, should not matter in your case though.

4. Why on earth would you want to send 20,000 Baht a month to somebody you've known for barely a month, that's probably two to three times her current salary? No, in my opinion, it wouldn't demonstrate anything to the ECO, though sudden influxes of cash of that amount would probably make them suspicious.

5. The fact she has a son, by her husband? will not factor into the equation, many Thai mothers leave their children with family or friends, as your girlfriend has done.

6. The ECO may take a view that your girlfriend's application, given that she is currently married, living apart from her husband and now has a new boyfriend who wants to take her overseas, would need to assessed with extreme caution.

7. You are correct in your view that somebody giving up their job to have an extended holiday with somebody she hardly knows isn't likely to be given a visa, the reason to return is one of the most important part of the application. I know few if any people who would consider a holiday of one to three months, what would she be doing during that time, are you at work?

8. I honestly don't think that any of these points would enhance her application.

I'm sorry if my response is full of doom and gloom, but you asked for an honest answer, but it's only my view.

To be frank I don't believe that somebody wishing to go on a holiday of one to three months in the circumstances you describe is likely to succeed, I would be delighted to be proved wrong though.

I'm sure others will give a view though.

[ljx]

@theoldgit thanks very much indeed for such a detailed reply. Yes, honest too, but it's easier to change my plans now than in a few months' time. I'll just follow up some of the points:

1. Plan B is for me to visit Thailand again in August for 10-14 nights... and by the way, I will be visiting for 2 weeks in April. So I guess after a second visit in August, the situation looks better... but what if she applies in April anyway and gets refused? Does the refusal make the next application also more likely to be refused?

4. I guess it's very much 'at my own risk' if I agree to send money to a lady I've recently met, as I know there are a lot of horror stories out there surrounding this. I'm trying to be careful in this respect. As far as the visa application goes, the money is to help her support her family and I want to make an honest visa application, but is there a better way of handing this?

5. The son is from a previous partner, but it does seem hard to find anything not job related as a reason to return to Thailand.

6. I might have to wait for a divoce to go through in that case, although I have no idea how long that takes. They married in Thailand a few years ago.

7. She would be staying with me while I work for some of the time, perhaps taking 2 weeks off in total. If we scale this ambition down and she comes for two weeks, with a letter from her employer saying the job is open, is this one of the main things that will improve her chances? Also, if successful and she only stays the two weeks, does that make a subsequent visa for a longer visit more likely to be approved?

Sorry for so many follow-up questions, and again frank honesty is fine. Thanks!

[theoldgit]

1. All applications are treated on their own merits, just because a previous application has been refused it doesn't mean that a subsequent application would be. If her application was refused, and it might not be, she would be given reasons for the refusal, these reasons would need to be addressed in any subsequent application. Well in excess 90% of visit visas are approved.

4. Indeed, I'm not being judgemental and as they say in Thailand "up to you", but you need to ask why would you want to send £370 a month, multiples of her current wage, to somebody overseas. She doesn't live with her child, she works, why would she need that much cash, who came up with the figure?

5. Yes spot on, she really does need a reason to return and that's what the ECO will be looking for, job, business or other long term commitments.

6. I'm not saying that she will need to wait for a divorce, but she is married, it looks like another guy is the father of her child, and now you're on the scene, put yourself in the position of the ECO, what decision would you make?

7. Again put yourself in the shoes of the ECO, how many people do you know that have holidays of that length? consider your girlfriend, she would be in the UK, thousands of miles away from friends and family and out of her comfort zone, what would she do when you are at work? A history of complying with the visa rules does help future applications, but as I say all applications are treated on their merits so future in applications the ECO would still need to be convinced that the application is genuine, affordable and the applicant is likely to return.

At the end of the day it's your decision and what ever you decide I wish you well, I'm to a certain extent playing devils advocate.

[ljx]

Again, thanks for all the thoughts and advice. Forgive my ignorance but what does ECO stand for?

Anyway, I might be tempted to go through the application process in April, if a negative outcome doesn't prejudice future applications. It would be for a 2 week visit in that case as this seems more realistic. The application fee for a general visitor is low enough to risk losing and I'll make it clear to my girlfriend that it might not succeed first time.

Another angle I could consider is to use an agency to help with the application. A friend of mine who has a Thai wife living in the UK has mentioned this, and my girlfriend has heard of people paying 20,000 Baht and managing to get a visa. Personally I'm sceptical though, I don't see how they can know more than one can learn from doing thorough research online, including this forum I even wonder if using an agency might look bad on the application.

If we get lucky and they grant a visa valid for 6 or even 3 months, I might be tempted to increase the plans to a 1 month stay. Or, should I resist such temptation in order to make things better with future applications?

Possibly off-topic, but on the subject of money... she used to get 30,000 Baht/month from her husband. She gives 10,000 to the lady who looks after her son, 3,000 to her father and also needs to pay 5,000/quarter for her son's school fees. I could just about afford to give her 30,000 but wanted to make sure she is careful with money and maintains a job. Obviously this whole arrangement depends on me believing what she says, but I find her to be very honest and genuine compared to many people I've met, in Thailand and elsewhere. Also, we talk daily, sometimes for 2-3 hours, and I've asked her a lot of questions. I'm being a bit 'high maintenance' myself to make it hard for her to mess around. She understands that not everyone who asks for money is honest and knows that some ladies manage to get money from more than one Western man, so she has been patient and willing to do everything possible to earn my trust. If things start to go sour then I'm not afraid to end it.

The way I look at it is, if things work out I'll be glad I helped out from the start... and if they don't, I can afford to lose that money over a number of months up to maybe a year, and it's no worse than having a high maintenance girlfriend in London who expects to be dined at places like Gauchos every other week! Btw this isn't meant to sound defensive, just making a case to see how it stands up to the "devil's advocate" scrutiny.

Cheers.

[CharlieH]

ECO is Entry Clearance Officer. The person who decides whether the vis is granted or not. All visitor visa are issued at 6 months duration ( in most cases). That doesnt mean they should stay for 6 months but stay as stated on the application form as it can influence further visas if you dont.

Personally, reading your post, you are moving way too fast and heading for a fall.

But thats just my opinion.

Edited January 21, 2014 by CharlieH

[theoldgit]

As Charlie says, Entry Clearance Officer, it's the first sentence of my initial response. I will have a look at your other points when I get home.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Jay Sata]

I am sure you are fond of this lady but you face a few obstacles. The Old Git makes some excellent points.

I'm afraid I'm with Charlie and his opinion.

Edited January 21, 2014 by Jay Sata

[theoldgit]

Another angle I could consider is to use an agency to help with the application. A friend of mine who has a Thai wife living in the UK has mentioned this, and my girlfriend has heard of people paying 20,000 Baht and managing to get a visa. Personally I'm sceptical though, I don't see how they can know more than one can learn from doing thorough research online, including this forum I even wonder if using an agency might look bad on the application.

If we get lucky and they grant a visa valid for 6 or even 3 months, I might be tempted to increase the plans to a 1 month stay. Or, should I resist such temptation in order to make things better with future applications?

Possibly off-topic, but on the subject of money... she used to get 30,000 Baht/month from her husband. She gives 10,000 to the lady who looks after her son, 3,000 to her father and also needs to pay 5,000/quarter for her son's school fees. I could just about afford to give her 30,000 but wanted to make sure she is careful with money and maintains a job. Obviously this whole arrangement depends on me believing what she says, but I find her to be very honest and genuine compared to many people I've met, in Thailand and elsewhere. Also, we talk daily, sometimes for 2-3 hours, and I've asked her a lot of questions. I'm being a bit 'high maintenance' myself to make it hard for her to mess around. She understands that not everyone who asks for money is honest and knows that some ladies manage to get money from more than one Western man, so she has been patient and willing to do everything possible to earn my trust. If things start to go sour then I'm not afraid to end it.

If you are considering using an agent then do some research, maybe the guy who sponsors this forum, don't be suckered in by someone who will guarantee a visa for 20,000 Baht, nobody can guarantee a visa, and the forum sponsor will tell you just that.

Nothing illegal against extending the length of the stay, but it could cause a problem in future applications and it could even cause a problem when entering the UK, remember possession of a visa doesn't guarantee admission.

The money thing is up to you, don't want to sound harsh, it's none of my business and I'm probably wrong but it does sound as if your young lady has found a cash cow.

Whatever you both decide, I hope it turns out for you both.

[RAZZELL]

20,000 baht a month? In Koh Chang? Are you nuts?

Can I ask the OP how many times have you been to Thailand?

RAZZ

[bobrussell]

Not trying to be too judgemental but I would be pretty careful. Take your time, travel to her, get to know her first! Average salary in Thailand (tradingeconomics.com/thailand/wages)is about 12000 baht a month so parting with 20K so early on is a bit steep!

Take care!

[Jay Sata]

Another good idea is to turn up a week before you've told her you are returning.

I guess we are not giving you the advice you wanted?

[ljx]

Again, thanks to The Old Git and all for replying, and I don't mind the honesty.

This was my first time in Thailand, and I know that no amount of reading things online before/during/after my trip can substitute for experience. There's no denying that from a financial point of view, I am taking a risk.

Other than that, I really just want to make sure that I can see the lady a few times, and that she can visit me, to give us a chance to get to know each other more. Her seeing my country, culture, house, friends etc. will help a lot with that - for her, but also for me as I will be watching keenly to see how she interacts. If things aren't going well I won't deny it, and won't be afraid to end the relationship. Yet I am happy to be a step ahead on the practical side; if a visa is granted and by then the relationship is over, well I prefer that to the other way around.

The idea of arriving early to catch her out is valid, and has crossed my mind. Nevertheless, while I need to ask a lot of questions and scrutinise her at this stage, I think such a move would engender too great a level of mistrust within both of us, leading to problems in the relationship later on.

On a more practical note, I guess nobody has a definitive answer here, but do people feel that using a reputable agency to help with the visa process will [a] improve the odds of success or at least make the process noticeably easier?

[theoldgit]

On a more practical note, I guess nobody has a definitive answer here, but do people feel that using a reputable agency to help with the visa process will [a] improve the odds of success or at least make the process noticeably easier?

In my view, and it's no more than that, using a reputable agent will not improve the odds of success, the evidence is what it is, but it could ensure the application contains all the elements the ECO is looking for to be satisfied.

A reputable agent will not take on the application, or your money, if he feels it's likely to fail.

[RAZZELL]

Mate - let me say this once.

Slow Down!

Go back to see her again. And no matter what "spin" people like to put on it - "bargirls" are still prostitutes

Unless she was the cashier....who are usually worse!

RAZZ

Edited January 22, 2014 by RAZZELL

[Jay Sata]

I think alarm bells would be ringing with me over the short marriage she had to the Canadian who never got her a visa for that country.

It takes more than a couple of weeks in a warm climate to get to know someone.

So I don't yet know if she can get a letter from her employer holding the job open, especially if she wants to visit me for 3 months.

A letter for such a job in Thailand would be near worthless.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Jay Sata

[howerde]

If using an agent, make sure you use an ,oisc, registered agent, they are regulated, so there is a complaints procedure if needed. and check their details against registered agents, remember anyone can just set themselves up as an agent. and claim to be registered.

Edited January 22, 2014 by howerde