Thaksin Returns As Pm

[sriracha john]

For him it is a fight or flight situation for post politics survival.

He has so much on the line, FAR more so than anyone else involved in the dispute. His family's fortune far exceeds anyone else's involved in the dispute. His leadership of the Nation and his place in his history upon which he puts so much emphasis would end in disgrace.

Given his history of fighting whether it's being responsible for stuffing dissentors into the backs of trucks to suffocate or murdering a civil rights lawyer, clearly his tactics involve snuffing out the lives of those that oppose him.

Edited June 11, 2006 by sriracha john

[ColPyat]

What are the reasons to call Chamlong a thug? He's rather Mahatma Gandhi of Thai politics.

The comparism with Mahatma Gandhi stops at Chamlong having been a politician and a career soldier, involved in the Vietnam war, involved at least in one military coup that resulted in a bloody massaker, involved having been part of the process of arming civil defense groups resulting in countless deaths committed by death squads during the communist insurgency. He has always been at the extreme right fringe of Thailand's checkered democracy movement.

His smile and asceticism does make good PR though, i have to admit. But please don't confuse Chamlong's carefully nurtured pubic image with reality.

I remember Ghandi having fasted to near death, and called off all protests when his actions resulted in the death of people. Chamlong though supported Thaksin during the drug war, which killed several thousand Thais, and explained the deaths of '92 as regrettable but still worth of the achievements.

Not exactly similar to Mahatma Ghandi.

[John K]

For him it is a fight or flight situation for post politics survival.

He has so much on the line, FAR more so than anyone else involved in the dispute. His family's fortune far exceeds anyone else's involved in the dispute. His leadership of the Nation and his place in his history upon which he puts so much emphasis would end in disgrace.

Given his history of fighting whether it's being responsible for stuffing dissentors into the backs of trucks to suffocate or murdering a civil rights lawyer, clearly his tactics involve snuffing out the lives of those that oppose him.

Is that not what cancer does?

[sriracha john]

everybody in politics is corrupt in some way, its foolish to focus so much on thaksin. so many people on this board are so cynical that objectivity fails them.

What's wrong with focusing on the worst offender... the biggest abuser of corruption... the man at the top of the vast majority of it?

[sriracha john]

For him it is a fight or flight situation for post politics survival.

He has so much on the line, FAR more so than anyone else involved in the dispute. His family's fortune far exceeds anyone else's involved in the dispute. His leadership of the Nation and his place in his history upon which he puts so much emphasis would end in disgrace.

Given his history of fighting whether it's being responsible for stuffing dissentors into the backs of trucks to suffocate or murdering a civil rights lawyer, clearly his tactics involve snuffing out the lives of those that oppose him.

Is that not what cancer does?

Indeed it does... as the instigator and overseer of such atrocities including the death war disguised as a Drug War, he must shoulder the overwhelming majority of the responsibility, so much so that anyone associated with him, not matter how remotely, is only on the fringe of that responsibility.

It was his idea, his direction, his orders that led to the deaths of over 2500 Thais... no matter how some of the revisionists on this board want to portray it.

He wants all the privileges of his office... and then some, but not be held responsible for any of his actions.

Edited June 11, 2006 by sriracha john

[ColPyat]

Indeed it does... as the instigator and overseer of such atrocities including the death war disguised as a Drug War, he must shoulder the overwhelming majority of the responsibility, so much so that anyone associated with him, not matter how remotely, is only on the fringe of that responsibility.

That's great. Following the line of this logic, we should now stop with the trials related to the crimes against humanity regarding the Balkan as Milosevic the instigator is dead, and we should release all the already convicted lower charges as they were "only on the fringes of that responsibility".

Why the endless debate about the trials in Cambodia? Pol Pot the instigator is dead already.

Whatever - the debate about the drugwar deaths, Tak Bai and other human rights violations that happened under Thaksin's government is utterly useless anyhow, as the vast majority of Thais have supported those incidents, and still see nothing wrong with them, including the PAD supporters.

We personally may be disgusted and horrified by these incidents, it may be against all our moral and ethical standards. But as long as Chamlong in one of the speaches during the demonstrations openly praised Thaksin as a great PM during the first four years of his rule (during which ALL of those human rights violations happened) your view concerning these human rights violations is absolutely irrelevant.

And even worse for you - given their documented personal history, the ones you appearantly support with such fervour may turn out, regarding the issue of human rights, not be one bit better than the one you seem to hate with a passion.

But why let logic and objectivity interfere with perception?

[jdinasia]

first ... it wasn't Sondi's war on drugs ... or Chamlong's ...

and like you said ... they MAY turn out ... (as opposed to HAVE turned out)

But why let logic and objectivity interfere with perception

We deal with the situations in front of us ... not your hypotheticals ... and we deal with the people responsible ... not those you want to paint with that brush because they were not vocally opposed ....

Assuming all your he's vindictive etc etc etc stuff regarduing the guy you like so much ... why would ANYONE speak out against something that would perhaps get them killed ... as opposed to just in trouble?

NOT to mention ... well we shouldn't HAVE to mention .... Sondi and Chamlong are NOT STANDING for office!

Edited June 11, 2006 by jdinasia

[John K]

EC chairman calls for cooperation

Election Commission chairman Vasana Puemlarp has invited leaders or representative of 34 political parties to a meeting to seek their cooperation on updating their memberships, an official said yesterday.

Meanwhile, former Chat Thai MP for Chanthaburi Khomkhai Pollabutr has moved to the Democrat Party ahead of today's deadline for potential parliamentary candidates to change parties.

Khomkhai is the wife of Democrat deputy leader Alongkorn Pollabutr.

Alongkorn, who is in charge of Democrat MPs for the Central region, said yesterday Khomkai had spoken with Chat Thai leader Banharn Silpa-archa, who told her that she and her husband should be in the same political party.

A number of other MPs had gone over to the Democrats but did not want to reveal their moves until the day before the deadline, Alongkorn said.

A Chat Thai Party source said the party's former MP for Ratchaburi, Vijai Wattanaprasit, had moved to the Pracharaj Party while others had joined Thai Rak Thai.

Politicians who want to switch parties for the general election scheduled for October 15 must be members of their new party by today under the 90-day membership requirement.

The EC official, who asked not to be named, said Vasana would ask the 34 parties to a meeting before the end of the month to update their membership information. This would be binding on the October 15 election.

The official said Vasana wanted to prevent a repeat of allegations that small parties collaborated with corrupt officials to alter their membership data.

It was alleged that this was done to allow unqualified members to stand in certain electorates to help members of a "large party" avoid the legal complications arising from being sole candidates.

The law requires sole candidates to receive 20 per cent of the vote in a constituency, which a number failed to do in the April 2 election.

Atthayuth Butrsripoom,

Yossawadee Hongthong

The Nation

[ColPyat]

first ... it wasn't Sondi's war on drugs ... or Chamlong's ...

and like you said ... they MAY turn out ... (as opposed to HAVE turned out)

But why let logic and objectivity interfere with perception

We deal with the situations in front of us ... not your hypotheticals ... and we deal with the people responsible ... not those you want to paint with that brush because they were not vocally opposed ....

Assuming all your he's vindictive etc etc etc stuff regarduing the guy you like so much ... why would ANYONE speak out against something that would perhaps get them killed ... as opposed to just in trouble?

Alright, i'll give it a try...

1) i don't like Thaksin.

2) he is vindictive, there are clear precedents.

3) denouncing the drugwar killings will hardly get the PAD into any more trouble than they are already, after having Thaksin publicly titled with almost every insult Thai language can come up with, including comparing him to Hitler. And the worst possible accusation in Thailand - accusing him of attempting to overthrow the monarchy.

4) we don't deal with "hypotheticals" - in particular Chamlong has not exactly what you would call a clean record regarding human rights violations (the '76 coup, his involvement in arming the village defense forces, etc.)

5) Chamlong has praised Thaksin's rule of the first 4 years, and those years included gross human rights violations, actually, ALL of the ones Thaksin has committed during his rule.

The PAD stands for many things, but i am afraid that it is wishful thinking that the PAD as a movement represents a democratic, humanistic and developing force in Thailand.

Personal agendas, past histories and present behavior contradict this positive view.

I hope the PAD is a spent force (even though i don't believe it), and we can move on here to the next elections without any more disturbances, so that we can get a functioning government again, and start the long process of national reconciliation.

[jdinasia]

geeze ... again ... THEY are not running for office .........

but don't let reality intrude on your personal grievances ....

[ColPyat]

geeze ... again ... THEY are not running for office .........

but don't let reality intrude on your personal grievances ....

Ehem... I don't believe that i have mentioned that the PAD is running for office.

[lukamar]

geeze ... again ... THEY are not running for office .........

You don't have to be a political party and you don't have to run for office to press a political agenda. No matter how you wrap it up and deliver the message - PAD is pushing a political agenda.

[sriracha john]

Indeed it does... as the instigator and overseer of such atrocities including the death war disguised as a Drug War, he must shoulder the overwhelming majority of the responsibility, so much so that anyone associated with him, not matter how remotely, is only on the fringe of that responsibility.

That's great. Following the line of this logic, we should now stop with the trials related to the crimes against humanity regarding the Balkan as Milosevic the instigator is dead, and we should release all the already convicted lower charges as they were "only on the fringes of that responsibility".

Why the endless debate about the trials in Cambodia? Pol Pot the instigator is dead already.

Whatever - the debate about the drugwar deaths, Tak Bai and other human rights violations that happened under Thaksin's government is utterly useless anyhow, as the vast majority of Thais have supported those incidents, and still see nothing wrong with them, including the PAD supporters.

We personally may be disgusted and horrified by these incidents, it may be against all our moral and ethical standards. But as long as Chamlong in one of the speaches during the demonstrations openly praised Thaksin as a great PM during the first four years of his rule (during which ALL of those human rights violations happened) your view concerning these human rights violations is absolutely irrelevant.

And even worse for you - given their documented personal history, the ones you appearantly support with such fervour may turn out, regarding the issue of human rights, not be one bit better than the one you seem to hate with a passion.

But why let logic and objectivity interfere with perception?

Actually, if you follow my logic, I'm merely proposing that any prosecutions START with Thaksin...

Once he's jailed or dead, then by all means, start with his underlings...

Simple, really.

[Martin]

In post #458, from 'John K', there is a press report of some MPs changing party.

But not a word on what those parties stand for.

To me, this is a graphic illustration of how far political awareness has to develop in the electorate, and in those it elects to be its representatives, in the system of representative democracy.

Those who returned from studies in the West, with heady ideas about democracy/equality/rule-of-law, and instigated the coup of 1932 have a lot to answer for, in that they never spelt out (didn't realise?) that people have an enormous job of learning to do, if they are to 'marry' a previous acceptance of hierarchically-organised power to an acceptance of representative-democracy making the power decisions.

And when I look at schooling, both in the state and the private schools and universities, I begin to despair of that learning ever being achieved, without lots more shenanigans (like this ousting of Thasksin) starting more and more people to think about their society and how to run it.

[John K]

Martin

One thing you missed that I hoped someone would catch. There are people joining the TRT. It raises the question; is the fate of the TRT decided already and we are just posting in this thread to some elaborate facade, or are they that out of touch with happenings in Bangkok?

[Martin]

I noticed that some MPs had moved to TRT, but just didn't know what to make of it!!!

"Political party" here doesn't seem to tie in, in any way, with the conceptions about it that I developed as a lad.

Then, we knew what 'we' stood for, and what 'they' (our political opponents) stood for.

And skulduggery only went as far as tricks like phoning up for one of the opponents' cars to take one of 'our' aged voters to the polling station.

(We were taught, however, to be clear about the difference between 'your political opponent' and 'your political enemy'. The latter would be in your own party!)

[John K]

I noticed that some MPs had moved to TRT, but just didn't know what to make of it!!!

"Political party" here doesn't seem to tie in, in any way, with the conceptions about it that I developed as a lad.

Then, we knew what 'we' stood for, and what 'they' (our political opponents) stood for.

And skulduggery only went as far as tricks like phoning up for one of the opponents' cars to take one of 'our' aged voters to the polling station.

(We were taught, however, to be clear about the difference between 'your political opponent' and 'your political enemy'. The latter would be in your own party!)

One of the clues I would look for is just how cocky and arrogant Thaksin acts in the coming days after the King’s celebration. If I had the chance to observe him in person I could do a body language read and come up with some sort of reality. But for the moment I would guess some mention of serious health problems to and about key people in the legal process have been made by him or an associate.

But again this is speculation based on his personal history, and may be totally wrong. But it provides food for thought.

Edited June 12, 2006 by john Krukowski

[Plus]

PAD is pushing a political agenda.

Their demand was single-minded - remove Thaksin from political system for alleged corruption. PAD has been quiet for over a month now because their main aspiration has been nearly fulfilled. Where's political agenda in this? If you really see it, please tell us what it is.

The comparism with Mahatma Gandhi stops at Chamlong having been a politician and a career soldier, involved in the Vietnam war, involved at least in one military coup that resulted in a bloody massaker, involved having been part of the process of arming civil defense groups resulting in countless deaths committed by death squads during the communist insurgency. He has always been at the extreme right fringe of Thailand's checkered democracy movement.

Colpyat, your personal hatred for Chamlong is clouding your judgement. His comparison with Mahatma Gandhi starts with leading peaceful protests against unjustice - in 1992, and this year again. Peaceful sit-in protests against Beer Chang listing also more Gandi like than right-wing extremism. You, of course, choose to overlook similarities and focus on differences instead. And when you can't find any, you make them up.

What is that coup that resulter in bloody massacre you are talking about?

If you refer to 1992, it's amazing to see how you blame the deaths not on the generals who ordered to open fire on unarmed protestors but on Chamlong who was already in jail at that time. Were the deaths unlimately worth it? People who died for their country are considered heroes everywhere in the world.

What are the anti-communist death squads Chamlong helped to organise? Wasn't it Thai army that fought communist insurgency? Wasn't he a high -ranking officer in the Thai army?

And the drug war - we've been there countless times. You can't find any evidence of Chamlong supporting it, only inferences "he praised Thaksin so he must have approved". You don't know what exactly he thought about it and what he thought of drug suspects killings, and why he didn't protest publicly.

[John K]

Yes PAD has been quiet mostly because the legal process has started and their cases have merit. All they should be doing now is finding more examples to add evidence. If they want to rally again they can but at this point all it can hope to do is remind the judges of the weight that rests on their shoulders.

Thaksin wont go voluntarily because he is sure to risk jail time and be parted from his fortune. Plus in his mind he still has to write the law that absolves him of what he did. He does rely on making his actions legal. All the wonderful trademarks of a dictator.

Edited June 12, 2006 by john Krukowski

[hammered]

Sometimes it seems that we on this board debate who will win only. Maybe we should remember that in Thailand situations usually end in compromise whether negotiated or forced. maybe there will be no outright winner but a situation where there are also no outright losers.

[lukamar]

Sometimes it seems that we on this board debate who will win only. Maybe we should remember that in Thailand situations usually end in compromise whether negotiated or forced. maybe there will be no outright winner but a situation where there are also no outright losers.

Some sort of compromise, with no clear winner or looser, may well be the best alternative. The people who need to win, no matter what we think here, are the Thai people, who do not need their country polarized more than it is already.

[hammered]

Sometimes it seems that we on this board debate who will win only. Maybe we should remember that in Thailand situations usually end in compromise whether negotiated or forced. maybe there will be no outright winner but a situation where there are also no outright losers.

Some sort of compromise, with no clear winner or looser, may well be the best alternative. The people who need to win, no matter what we think here, are the Thai people, who do not need their country polarized more than it is already.

Agree with that. It will not be easy. Try to think of the name of a potential PM who would be respected in every region and thereby be able to start reconcilliation?

[sriracha john]

David Beckham. He seems to be fairly well liked across all regions of Thailand.

*lightening the mood... temporarily... until the bigger, more somber news hits later this week or next...*

[hammered]

David Beckham. He seems to be fairly well liked across all regions of Thailand.

*lightening the mood... temporarily... until the bigger, more somber news hits later this week or next...*

Quality idea. He'll probably be retiring as England captain soon too.

[ColPyat]

Colpyat, your personal hatred for Chamlong is clouding your judgement.

What is that coup that resulter in bloody massacre you are talking about?

What are the anti-communist death squads Chamlong helped to organise? Wasn't it Thai army that fought communist insurgency? Wasn't he a high -ranking officer in the Thai army?

Not personal hatred, but reading up on his personal history.

The coup i refer to is the '76 coup. Chamlong was a founding member of the 'Young Turks', and according to his own words he "he did not disobey orders that led to the overthrow of the elected civilian government on 6. Oktober 1976", as in his opinion the post '73 civilian governments led Thailand too far to the left.

Not only the Thai Army fought Communist insurgents. There were the 'village self-defense corps', the 'Village Scouts' (Look Sueah Chao Ban), the 'Krating Daeng' (An extreme right wing organisation made up of soldiers and civilians).

Interesting to note there is that many death squads during the drugwar were comprised of veterans of similar death squads of the Communist insurgency aera, who have emploeyed similar tactics in the drgwar killings as the used during the Communist insurgency.

[ovenman]

Thaksin wont go voluntarily because he is sure to risk jail time and be parted from his fortune.

No doubt that avoiding prison time or having even a single satang of his fortune confiscated is what now keeps him in the game. I'm sure he could leave Thailand tomorrow and hole up forever somewhere like the UK, US, Canada, etc. but the last thing that Mr. Big would want is to be some rich nobody in any of those places.

[John K]

Thaksin wont go voluntarily because he is sure to risk jail time and be parted from his fortune.

No doubt that avoiding prison time or having even a single satang of his fortune confiscated is what now keeps him in the game. I'm sure he could leave Thailand tomorrow and hole up forever somewhere like the UK, US, Canada, etc. but the last thing that Mr. Big would want is to be some rich nobody in any of those places.

I don’t think he would go there. Too many laws that can send him back to Thailand. Someplace in South America would be more hospitable. He may even be semi protected by drug lords for knocking out competition. He may feel right at home there.

[jdinasia]

Strangely again ... this thread isn't about Chamlong ...

and since Chamlong and Sondi are not running for office they are kinda moot ...

(though I think all of Chamlong's behaviour cited was Pre-Santi Asoke)

We will all know so much more on Friday ... so I guess this is all space filler!)

Edited June 12, 2006 by jdinasia

[sriracha john]

Thaksin wont go voluntarily because he is sure to risk jail time and be parted from his fortune.

No doubt that avoiding prison time or having even a single satang of his fortune confiscated is what now keeps him in the game. I'm sure he could leave Thailand tomorrow and hole up forever somewhere like the UK, US, Canada, etc. but the last thing that Mr. Big would want is to be some rich nobody in any of those places.

I don’t think he would go there. Too many laws that can send him back to Thailand. Someplace in South America would be more hospitable. He may even be semi protected by drug lords for knocking out competition. He may feel right at home there.

Actually, there is very good precedence for the U.S., and more specifically Hawaii, that would be suitable to accept him. Another man with a very similar outlook on life and was in the very same position was allowed to go there and stayed as long as he lived without ever being sent anywhere until he died.

Imelda sings to her dying husband Ferdinand in Hawaii (PBS)

[John K]

I think there are some new laws on the book now after 9-11. But no doubt Thaksin would have a go at changing them.