Buying land with Thai GF with a mortgage over the property, possible?

[RigPig]

This was posted by me in another thread, but I never received a reply so I decided to ask the question directly. If it is is feasible why is it not heard of more?

I have bad subtle changes to the original post to bring it into context, and to save re-writing it.

Now when using the term "mortgage", I am thinking more along the lines of the BF (prospective husband) being "the bank" (for want of a better description). I am not discussing an Ursfruct, Lease or Companies (although the mortgage principal could be applied to a company type set up) as I think they have already been covered sufficiently. I do however think that a person may be able to instigate something along these lines..... as long as the Fiance is willing, It will I think give him an idea of her "true intentions" either way, should he decide to go down this path, if it is possible.

This is also designed to be a question, as well as another (possible) scenario around this persisting problem we farangs have here in Thailand. I am not looking at methods of breaking the law here, merely a method of "protecting" oneself or "insuring" oneself against the future. With some of the "investments" we make here, thinking about the long term, things can change as stated many times before. However we are all getting older and our ability to recover from a traumatic change of circumstances may be more difficult as time goes on.

I am fairly sure these scenarios would have to be instigated BEFORE a legal marriage is performed.

There are 2 possible ways of going around this I think, depending upon the relationship and the intentions of the BF (or farang in the relationship).

1/ If your intention is to protect your entire investment.

2/ If the intention is to protect your rights as a cohabitant and 50/50 partner (as in what I think would be construed as a "normal" marital relationship).

I make this distinction because some of us are "happier" to split the difference, but it is sometimes difficult to walk away from everything. If you are happy to walk away from everything then this is not an issue being discussed here. I am also assuming the ultimate objective is legal marriage, but in any long term relationship there would be some "protection" and it would still give a couple something to build together. How it is shared is up to the individual couple. We all know it is illegal for a foreigner to own land here, but a house can be owned which is situated on a property.

With the first item, I am not sure this is possible after marriage, as I believe a document has to be signed stating basically "That ALL of the funds used to purchase the land belonged SOLELY to the wife at the time of purchase". This (is supposed to) negate ANY claim a husband may have upon the land in question. The husband may have some claim to 50% of the value of that property (I am not sure at all about this) however getting it will be (I would think) EXTREMELY difficult in a practical sense (assuming it has all gone sour by this stage).

However if this was instigated BEFORE a marriage, it would seem to me to be a legally binding "business" type venture between 2 parties. Things such as "interest", repayment terms and repayment times along with provisos for "liquidation" could all be "manipulated" to suit the circumstances and intentions at the time of the contract. The contract "terms" could even be changed at will I would think if both parties are in agreement.

With the second item, I think it could be set up (also before a marriage) with 50% (or whatever percentage is applicable) of the original purchase costs in the name of both parties (even if one half is supplied as a "gift" to the other party) It should have the same protection for the husband (to be) in as much as the property owned between both husband and wife (including land) would have to be sold (with suitable terms applied) and divided equally.

I also believe (correct me if I am wrong) that debts such as this are completely recoverable and are enabled to be passed on (to either side) in Thailand. This could possibly also add some "protection" to both parties if it was laid out in a manner that was suitable. A mortgage in place before any marriage simply gives a lien to the mortgagee, and a recoverable debt or security.

If the couple is in it for "life" then there should be no problem and everyone can "live happily ever after", if it goes "cactus" you do have some legal "fall back". Debts and properties obtained before a marriage, remain with the party which had them in the first place.

Comments please, especially from those with any experience with these matters.

[cashpower]

What exactly is your end-game? You seem to be extremely concerned with a minor "investment" of USD 50k or so in your teerak when you would lose 10x that in farangistan if things go tits up. Seriously mate if you have to do all this legal research over a drop in the bucket you need to re-evaluate yourself or your teerak.

Cake and eat it.

[RigPig]

What exactly is your end-game? You seem to be extremely concerned with a minor "investment" of USD 50k or so in your teerak when you would lose 10x that in farangistan if things go tits up. Seriously mate if you have to do all this legal research over a drop in the bucket you need to re-evaluate yourself or your teerak.

Cake and eat it.

Thanks for the reply.

As I stated earlier if you are happy to walk away this thread is not for you. Secondly if you think 50k US is so trivial I'll send you my bank details. Thirdly 50k US would not buy any significant land over here where I would choose to live. Finally there have been plenty of threads on other alternate methods on this site regarding "protecting ones interests" in land investments, I just wondered if this was a feasible / viable legal alternative to those. If so I have not seen ANY discussion on the issue.

I guess it's OK to spend 100 Baht getting an ursfruct, or more on a 30 year lease or setting up a company, but this concept which required no research and may just be a safer alternative requires me to re-evaluate myself. Great news for all those that have been "taken for a ride", just go re-evaluate yourself......

[cashpower]

this concept which required no research ....

There's your first clue

[oogster8]

where did you meet your gf sir?? did your relationship start with a barfine? also age difference.

i cant tell you are older as you state-its hard for old man to recover from big financial loss.

if the 50k is a BIG deal to you- ditch the girl! or tell her no deal you just want her love- you got enough money..........................lol.

a guy meets thai girl and want to be thai developer.............................lol. just marry the girl nad have kids and buy a dog and of course build her the house. i bet she has architechtural plans in a draw waiting for you.

Edited January 27, 2014 by oogster8

[swissie]

I am afraid, none of the many "Legal-Lingo" expressions you apply (European-Legal-Lingo) could even be translated properly into Thai-Language by any sophisticated "Translation-Agency" in Bangkok.

Much worse: Thai property-law does not accommodate most of the "variations" you mention. = Unknown here. No matter how you are trying to "camouflage" it: A Farang is not allowed to own land in Thailand, no matter what your "Farang-Friendly-Lawyer" or your GF tells you.

Stay happy in Thailand and do the following:

- Keep your cash dry and safe in Europe

- Rent your accommodation

- Rent your female companionship

The recipe for a worrie-free live in Thailand.

Otherwise it will be "som nam naah" Ask GF what that means.

Cheers.

[cashpower]

- Keep your cash dry and safe in Europe

'rigpig' is an Aussie

[CharlieH]

The biggest mistake you are making here is approaching this and thinking it through from a western approach, morals, and years of western living. That will get you nowhere ! You can have all the paperwork you like but enforcing it would be difficult and costly if you as a ferang could find anyone that gives a toss!

I'll simply say, DO NOT spend anymore than you are prepared to walk away from.

Trust me, in that if it all goes wrong you will ultimately walk away because trying to fight her , her family, god knows who else in the family etc you will lose or face years of legal wrangling to no real result, or even worse !

If it works great ! I am happy for you, if it doesnt, cut your losses and just walk away!

You are and will always be nothing more than a tolerated visitor.

Edited January 27, 2014 by CharlieH

[oogster8]

if the land is so great have the girl round up her families resoources to buy the land . she can then go to work paying them off.

why does op need to be involved? i not get it! in the end op would just be getting his money back.

[RigPig]

where did you meet your gf sir?? did your relationship start with a barfine? also age difference.

i cant tell you are older as you state-its hard for old man to recover from big financial loss.

if the 50k is a BIG deal to you- ditch the girl! or tell her no deal you just want her love- you got enough money..........................lol.

a guy meets thai girl and want to be thai developer.............................lol. just marry the girl nad have kids and buy a dog and of course build her the house. i bet she has architechtural plans in a draw waiting for you.

This thread is not about myself, it is just offering (or attempting to) a different concept for people that may have a use for it.

It is basically the method I use with my Thai company. I empathise with guys that get into this situation, that's all.

But instead of intelligent comments all you get is people trying to be-little you.............lol.............NOT.

PS again, learn to use spell check, it will make your postings easier to read..............lol

I would ask if you have nothing constructive to add, then PLEASE don't.

[RigPig]

I am afraid, none of the many "Legal-Lingo" expressions you apply (European-Legal-Lingo) could even be translated properly into Thai-Language by any sophisticated "Translation-Agency" in Bangkok.

Much worse: Thai property-law does not accommodate most of the "variations" you mention. = Unknown here. No matter how you are trying to "camouflage" it: A Farang is not allowed to own land in Thailand, no matter what your "Farang-Friendly-Lawyer" or your GF tells you.

Stay happy in Thailand and do the following:

- Keep your cash dry and safe in Europe

- Rent your accommodation

- Rent your female companionship

The recipe for a worrie-free live in Thailand.

Otherwise it will be "som nam naah" Ask GF what that means.

Cheers.

Pretty much am, but that's a personal choice. I was hoping to help "save" some other poor soul that get's caught up in the quagmire....

[JLCrab]

OK, I'll bite. I would say it is possible to structure a loan from the OP to a Thai citizen for the purchase of a property as long as the property itself is not used in any way shape or form as collateral for the loan i.e. the Thai citizen has some other assets at least in the amount loaned to be pledged as collateral.

[RigPig]

The biggest mistake you are making here is approaching this and thinking it through from a western approach, morals, and years of western living. That will get you nowhere ! You can have all the paperwork you like but enforcing it would be difficult and costly if you as a ferang could find anyone that gives a toss!

I'll simply say, DO NOT spend anymore than you are prepared to walk away from.

Trust me, in that if it all goes wrong you will ultimately walk away because trying to fight her , her family, god knows who else in the family etc you will lose or face years of legal wrangling to no real result, or even worse !

If it works great ! I am happy for you, if it doesnt, cut your losses and just walk away!

You are and will always be nothing more than a tolerated visitor.

Your preaching to the converted, but thanks for the genuine advise.

I just read posts about ursfructs and companies or guys getting taken all the time and was offering what I thought may be a viable alternative. I do a similar thing with my Thai company, just incase it goes bad......

[oogster8]

we know op wants to do this. no one starts a topic like this to save other fruitcakes.

[RigPig]

OK, I'll bite. I would say it is possible to structure a loan from the OP to a Thai citizen for the purchase of a property as long as the property itself is not used in any way shape or form as collateral for the loan i.e. the Thai citizen has some other assets at least in the amount loaned to be pledged as collateral.

Thanks, this isn't for myself, I personally have no need for it, it's just a concept. The idea was to retain a "lien" on the land so if it did go South you had some legal recourse.

If you bought something in her home town I would think the chances of any recovery would be zero in practice. However if you decided to build away from her village you may have a shot at it. Or it may at least allow you to work something out if there was a break up.

[RigPig]

we know op wants to do this. no one starts a topic like this to save other fruitcakes.

Actually the OP is already doing it (or at least something similar) with his own Thai company as a safe guard and a method of taking funds (and making a small profit) from the company.............lol

[fredfish]

Sometimes it works, but not with young peeps, I am 60 my Thai wife is 54 we really love each other and we laugh a lot

Maybe one day she could take me down , but we have a lot of property now

Lol I own none

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[JLCrab]

If an alien is involved in loaning money to purchase a property, then IMHO the property itself could not serve as collateral or lien to a loan. But some other property or asset of equal or greater value could.

[RigPig]

If an alien is involved in loaning money to purchase a property, then IMHO the property itself could not serve as collateral or lien to a loan. But some other property or asset of equal or greater value could.

You may well be right which is part of the reason for posting this. As I have control of my company anyway it is a bit different and is done for a few other reasons. However if the contract has a "liquidation clause" for default or if the GF has 1/2 stake in the property (even if that money was gifted in whole) maybe you would be able to get your "fair" 50% of the land value back in the event of the honeymoon finishing completely. What do you think?

[JLCrab]

I think the above would arrangement upon default would be seen as an attempt to circumvent Thai Land law and be unenforceable.

[cashpower]

If an alien is involved in loaning money to purchase a property, then IMHO the property itself could not serve as collateral or lien to a loan. But some other property or asset of equal or greater value could.

You may well be right which is part of the reason for posting this. As I have control of my company anyway it is a bit different and is done for a few other reasons. However if the contract has a "liquidation clause" for default or if the GF has 1/2 stake in the property (even if that money was gifted in whole) maybe you would be able to get your "fair" 50% of the land value back in the event of the honeymoon finishing completely. What do you think?

oh get over yourself Graham. your company blah blah blah and then being a grammar nazi and post shit like this:

"Your preaching to the converted, but thanks for the genuine advise."

The kingdom doesn't want you to own land beyond the strict legal requirements. Nobody needs your half-assed hypothetical "workarounds" and if there was a foolproof method you aren't the person to promote it. That's all the "advise" I can give you

[Neeranam]

Quite simple as I see it. If you are working, you can get a mortgage. If you get a prenuptial then you will get half of everything. Of course you will need a good lawyer too. A friend of mine built a large house and 10 rai of land and got divorced shortly after, He got 50% of the sale plus half the court costs etc from his wife's half. Sadly, he died without shortly after.

[RigPig]

If an alien is involved in loaning money to purchase a property, then IMHO the property itself could not serve as collateral or lien to a loan. But some other property or asset of equal or greater value could.

You may well be right which is part of the reason for posting this. As I have control of my company anyway it is a bit different and is done for a few other reasons. However if the contract has a "liquidation clause" for default or if the GF has 1/2 stake in the property (even if that money was gifted in whole) maybe you would be able to get your "fair" 50% of the land value back in the event of the honeymoon finishing completely. What do you think?

oh get over yourself Graham. your company blah blah blah and then being a grammar nazi and post shit like this:

"Your preaching to the converted, but thanks for the genuine advise."

The kingdom doesn't want you to own land beyond the strict legal requirements. Nobody needs your half-assed hypothetical "workarounds" and if there was a foolproof method you aren't the person to promote it. That's all the "advise" I can give you

Thanks again for another stimulating reply "CASHPOWER",

I apologise if your snide comments didn't quite have the effect you thought they would have, however you could (if you think the post is sh1t) just leave the thread instead of trying to put someone down that is trying to contribute to life in a foreign land.

As much as we all love this place not being able to legally own land is an old issue of concern to many of us for many reasons. No one is suggesting that you would be able to own land under the current law, but just to enable you to have a legal recourse over something that has cost you a large sum would be a step in the right direction, don't you think?

You suggested before that 50k US was not a large sum of money (as we can see with your monicker, it is obviously not a problem to yourself), however I beg to disagree. There would still not be too many people in this world taking home $150,000 per annum in their hand after tax. That amount would represent 30% of that amount, which I would consider a reasonable amount of hard earned cash.

Most of us are familiar with the guiles and lack of scruples of some (Thai) women. There may be someone else in Thailand that may be interested in this thread and indeed it may be of use to someone other than yourself of course. Not all of us can afford to throw 50k US at EVERY Thai GF we have been out with. The (part) object of this thread is to see if this would meet "the strict legal requirements" of the law as you put it.

I am not here to promote anything or put people down that attempt to prevent some of the heartaches we see on this forum everyday.

Thanks for your advise.

[Neeranam]

The biggest mistake you are making here is approaching this and thinking it through from a western approach, morals, and years of western living. That will get you nowhere ! You can have all the paperwork you like but enforcing it would be difficult and costly if you as a ferang could find anyone that gives a toss!

I'll simply say, DO NOT spend anymore than you are prepared to walk away from.

Trust me, in that if it all goes wrong you will ultimately walk away because trying to fight her , her family, god knows who else in the family etc you will lose or face years of legal wrangling to no real result, or even worse !

If it works great ! I am happy for you, if it doesnt, cut your losses and just walk away!

You are and will always be nothing more than a tolerated visitor.

If everyone thinks this way we 'farang' will never be accepted here.

A good friend of mine heard all this kind of advice and ignored it, standing up for his rights and it worked, he got half of everything he invested in.

[metisdead]

Inflammatory posts and replies have been removed. You can disagree with someone’s view without name calling.

Thanks.

[wym]

If an alien is involved in loaning money to purchase a property, then IMHO the property itself could not serve as collateral or lien to a loan. But some other property or asset of equal or greater value could.

I would say it is possible to structure a loan from the OP to a Thai citizen for the purchase of a property as long as the property itself is not used in any way shape or form as collateral for the loan i.e. the Thai citizen has some other assets at least in the amount loaned to be pledged as collateral.

Isn't it also the case that in the event of the transactions being scrutinized - as soon as there is seen to be any involvement with foreigners, then the owners of the property would need to be able to show that their income and assets are sufficient to have supported the land purchase?

So the foreigner trying to bypass the law's intent would need to make his deals with Thais that aren't poor.

And of course the reason these Thais aren't poor is that they're not stupid or naive, and most likely would be able easily put on over on the foreigner.

OP bottom line is in order to in practice invest in Thai land, you'd need to be doing it on a scale large enough to be able to spend a lot more than 50K just on lawyer fees, and that's assuming you could find a trustworthy lawyer working in the "foreigners buying real estate" niche.

And even if you did find a clever method to bypass the current government safeguards, your actual goal - to be able to profit from Thai real estate is exactly what the Thai legal system intends to prevent.

As soon as your intention is revealed, that itself will allow them to undo your scheme any time they feel like it.

Hence the risk involved makes it a foolish investment.

Unless it's such a small fraction of your total net worth you won't mind losing it.

Thus the advice you've been getting here, which can't be stated strongly enough:

Only invest what you're willing to see disappear down the road.

IMO consider it a gift to the missus from the very beginning.

[doublephil]

Providing a mortgage to a Thai person to buy land or property is very easy. I know - because I have done it - and have the Chanote Title Deed with my name as mortgagee to prove it.

You need a formal loan agreement - signed by both parties with 2 witnesses. You need a letter from a Thai bank which confirms that you received money from overseas and that this money was withdrawn for the purpose of providing a mortgage to the land buyer. It's a standard letter. I got the letter done within 30 minutes at Bangkok Bank.

At the Land Office you transfer ownwership of the property to the name of your g/f - then at same time - or later if you wish - you fill in the appropriate forms to register the interest of a mortgagee (i.e. you) from the Land Office and submit together with copy of passport, Loan Agreement in Thai (or certified genuine copy in Thai if original is in English) and Confirmation Letter from Bank. There are Land Office fees to pay - depending on the value of the property. Very simple. I did mine at a rural Land Office in Chiang Mai. Being a non-Thai citizen is irrelevant - it is just a procedure to register a mortgage.

[AbeSurd]

To the OP. For what it's worth...

A friend of mine is a very successful retired UK property lawyer. Here in Thailand he has a Thai property lawyer who he trusts and with whom he's discussed this very idea.

He tells me that, properly structured, the idea of you being 'the bank' and lending your girlfriend the money to buy a house is the way to go - if you want to have the option of getting your money back in the event of the relationship going belly up.

Note: I'm talking about a girlfriend not a wife here. And I'm talking about houses not condos. And I'm not talking about what's morally right or wrong in these matters.

Re the point JLCrab is making: under these circumstances you're not trying to get your hands on the property - you just want your money back. The question seems to me to be: can you force the sale of the house without taking ownership of the house? And I don't know the answer to that because I'm not a lawyer.

Will try and remember to ask my friend about this next time I see him.

PS: personally speaking - I rent!

[marioc]

The biggest mistake you are making here is approaching this and thinking it through from a western approach, morals, and years of western living. That will get you nowhere ! You can have all the paperwork you like but enforcing it would be difficult and costly if you as a ferang could find anyone that gives a toss!

I'll simply say, DO NOT spend anymore than you are prepared to walk away from.

Trust me, in that if it all goes wrong you will ultimately walk away because trying to fight her , her family, god knows who else in the family etc you will lose or face years of legal wrangling to no real result, or even worse !

If it works great ! I am happy for you, if it doesnt, cut your losses and just walk away!

You are and will always be nothing more than a tolerated visitor.

" I'll simply say, DO NOT spend anymore than you are prepared to walk away from. "

Perfectly explained CharlieH.....this is the only rule to follow.....very down to earth, but I agree 100%!

[marioc]

Providing a mortgage to a Thai person to buy land or property is very easy. I know - because I have done it - and have the Chanote Title Deed with my name as mortgagee to prove it.

You need a formal loan agreement - signed by both parties with 2 witnesses. You need a letter from a Thai bank which confirms that you received money from overseas and that this money was withdrawn for the purpose of providing a mortgage to the land buyer. It's a standard letter. I got the letter done within 30 minutes at Bangkok Bank.

At the Land Office you transfer ownwership of the property to the name of your g/f - then at same time - or later if you wish - you fill in the appropriate forms to register the interest of a mortgagee (i.e. you) from the Land Office and submit together with copy of passport, Loan Agreement in Thai (or certified genuine copy in Thai if original is in English) and Confirmation Letter from Bank. There are Land Office fees to pay - depending on the value of the property. Very simple. I did mine at a rural Land Office in Chiang Mai. Being a non-Thai citizen is irrelevant - it is just a procedure to register a mortgage.

"The question seems to me to be: can you force the sale of the house without taking ownership of the house?"

What do you think about AbeSurd question?

If the relationship ends in a very bad way, do you think you will be able to force the sale of the property in order to get your money back(assuming that your ex will be very likely broke)?

Anyway I don't think you can take over the property and get the Chanote Title with your name 'cause Thai Law doesn't allow it.