Election Special – How did we end up here? From Thaksin to today

[Why ask]

Yes, fine- I agree with everyone, who says, things would be better if all Shinawatrss would just vanish into the air.

a) It's not gonna happen!

b ) What next?

As long as no one answers b ) ..other than using talking points like "We need reform" (how? what? how to achieve?).

Just throwing around buzz-words, will not do any good- with or without the Shins.

Answering b ) comes in the form of understanding the question first. If the question is not understood by the poser, then any answer may be viable.

-m.

Edited February 2, 2014 by Why ask

[Why ask]

This mess has started long before Thaksin even was born.

Most of Sutheps supporters do not even know what happened prior to 2010.

So now you resort to saying current protestors are uneducated, or have no knowledge of history. You're one in a million, really.

It's red propaganda, one sided view which ignores why Thailand is in this situation. All it does is support the corruption!

What supports corruption? Thailand or propaganda? Are you aware of the personal threats, involving family deaths, which occur. It is only violence, and fear of it, which supports corruption, and not sided statements through colour or propaganda (albeit threats carry previous propagandae with them!)

-m.

[Dogmatix]

Great quote from Chalerm. Be careful what you wish for Chalerm or you might turn into a putrifying mass.

RT@tulsathit: Chalerm: May people who advocate violence rot in hell forever.

Be careful what you wish for Chalerm or you might turn into a mass of putrefaction.

[Dogmatix]

on a hindsight - her mistake was resigning and dissolving parliament, believing, that it would diffuse situation and that opposition will stick to their word. However, Democrats decided not to contest an election and thus pulling all their power behind suthep. She had a chance to use police and military to remove protesters from the streets, prevent bangkok shutdown and protection for polling stations, voting papers and boxes.

still, it's not an end for her - she will be elected pm for the second term

Crazy isn't it ??? if then she is elected the courts will most likely take her out with most of the PTP. So what happens then ????

Waste of public money Thailand is short of, What will Issan do when this lot is out ???? who will they vote for the ghosts ???

This democracy thing seems to be quite an issue for some here - a complicated concept. What would you rather do? Maybe install a council appointed by a deeply corrupt former deputy PM with worse democratic credentials than PTP and a human rights record that's as dark as Thaksin? Maybe she should not have called an election? But the problem with that is that it was democratically probably the right thing to do given the vocal dissatisfaction voiced by the whistle blowing Bangkok minority - when there is doubt you go for a mandate, you ask the people. Tricky concept I know, but it works worldwide hence the universal support for this election from the international community. What else would you suggest? Most of Thailand sees Suthep as a raving, dangerous nutter. Given that (and argue it if you want but it's a fact), then maybe he might not be the best person to take control - if we are to avoid a civil war. And he has zero mandate to do so.

Nope, the smart thing to do is to call an election and get the people to decide (and Thailand is not THAT broke - unless Moody's have it wrong). The dumb, dumb, thing was for the opposition to abstain. By doing so they no longer have a right to collectively call themselves anything in a democracy. The Dems have politically ceased to exist today. Idiots.

And even if YS and many PT MPs face legal sanction, the list then ensures that others move up. You are stuck with them.

If Suthep was a band they'd be called The Failures and the past few months would be their Greatest Hits culminating in today.

What we are witnessing is the death rattle of the conservatives that have ruled Thailand for the past 200 years.

The old families with close ties to the ancient power structure, with enormous wealth, with close family ties to the military who walk on the heads of ordinary Thais.

Who treat farmers and workers as mere chattels, who have raped the natural resources of the nation, who own just about everything.

They are responsible for the yellow shirts.

They know that if the workers and farmers become organised and elect their own leaders, instead of accepting these Democrat puppets, they lose everything.

They will use every dirty trick in the book including patriotism (the last refuge of the scoundrel) to cling on to power and keep the people ignorant.

That is why they have brought on the last coup, to get rid of the Thaksin and to install a puppet (Abhisit).

However, you can't put the genie back in the bottle, and the people have elected Yingluck.

No matter what anyone says about her brother, she was elected in an overwhelming victory and she is the leader.

Suthep is just a lackey for the old clique and he uses the Yellow shirts and patriotism as his weapons to try and force out a democratically elected government.

Can you imagine what would happen if someone tried the same tactics in the UK?

He would be arrested and locked away.

And so it will pass here too, the old clique trying hard to hang on, but they are on a losing game, the people have had enough of the old ways.

They want change and they want to have a say.

The issue of amnesty for Thaksin is a red herring, any excuse will do to keep the pot boiling, to get back into power.

If Thaksin died tomorrow there would be another excuse to try to force out Peu Thai.

They just don't want to live in a democracy where the law would apply to them equally.

And in my 35 years of living here I've watched the poor become politically aware and that's why they vote for PTP.

Democrats are just the old clique, recycled again and again.

Every General when he retires moves straight into the businesses he cultivated through graft and favours during his time in the forces.

It has always been.

That is why the military won't let go of their grip on the throat of the Thai people.

The old families from earliest times control 90% of the economy.

Why would they let the poor spoil their party?

PTP and Thaksin recognised this and brought policies to give them a better go.

The yellows, Suthep and his ilk are just puppets for the real power in Thailand.

Thaksin was an upstart who didn't want to play in their game.

Reminds me a little of Anwar Ibrahim's situation in Malaysia.

He didn't want to play by Mahathir Mohammed's rules so trumped up charges were used to silence him.

Thaksin wasn't a cleanskin, show me one Thai politician who is, but when it suited the Dems, they dragged out the corruption mantra to demonise him.

And all the little public servants in their offices were told to get down to the airport in a yellow shirt and shut it down.

This is as transparent a game as one could wish to see.

I doubt whether the people will ever have real political power here until the military are told to do as they are instructed by a democratically elected government.

As seen in most Western democracies.

That is why Suthep came out with that outrageous idea of an unelected "people's council", they don't want an election, they can't win one.

So the tanks will be rumbling down the streets very soon.

"The issue of amnesty for Thaksin is a red herring...."

LOL. Hilarious. Keep 'em coming.

[ggold]

Most of Sutheps supporters do not even know what happened prior to 2010.

So now you resort to saying current protestors are uneducated, or have no knowledge of history. You're one in a million, really.

It's red propaganda, one sided view which ignores why Thailand is in this situation. All it does is support the corruption!

What supports corruption? Thailand or propaganda? Are you aware of the personal threats, involving family deaths, which occur. It is only violence, and fear of it, which supports corruption, and not sided statements through colour or propaganda (albeit threats carry previous propagandae with them!)

-m.

More Propaganda! seriously I'm beginning to think with all these newbies spouting off that Thaivisa is being overrun by propagandists.

[Dogmatix]

RT@veen_NT:
Rocker Sek Loso at a polling booth (via @Buttree_TRnews ) เสก โลโซ ที่หน่วยเลือกตั้งที่ 33 pic.twitter.com/GFAZ3842MI

Looks spliffingly happy.

[ginjag]

on a hindsight - her mistake was resigning and dissolving parliament, believing, that it would diffuse situation and that opposition will stick to their word. However, Democrats decided not to contest an election and thus pulling all their power behind suthep. She had a chance to use police and military to remove protesters from the streets, prevent bangkok shutdown and protection for polling stations, voting papers and boxes.

still, it's not an end for her - she will be elected pm for the second term

Crazy isn't it ??? if then she is elected the courts will most likely take her out with most of the PTP. So what happens then ????

Waste of public money Thailand is short of, What will Issan do when this lot is out ???? who will they vote for the ghosts ???

This democracy thing seems to be quite an issue for some here - a complicated concept. What would you rather do? Maybe install a council appointed by a deeply corrupt former deputy PM with worse democratic credentials than PTP and a human rights record that's as dark as Thaksin? Maybe she should not have called an election? But the problem with that is that it was democratically probably the right thing to do given the vocal dissatisfaction voiced by the whistle blowing Bangkok minority - when there is doubt you go for a mandate, you ask the people. Tricky concept I know, but it works worldwide hence the universal support for this election from the international community. What else would you suggest? Most of Thailand sees Suthep as a raving, dangerous nutter. Given that (and argue it if you want but it's a fact), then maybe he might not be the best person to take control - if we are to avoid a civil war. And he has zero mandate to do so.

Nope, the smart thing to do is to call an election and get the people to decide (and Thailand is not THAT broke - unless Moody's have it wrong). The dumb, dumb, thing was for the opposition to abstain. By doing so they no longer have a right to collectively call themselves anything in a democracy. The Dems have politically ceased to exist today. Idiots.

And even if YS and many PT MPs face legal sanction, the list then ensures that others move up. You are stuck with them.

If Suthep was a band they'd be called The Failures and the past few months would be their Greatest Hits culminating in today.

What we are witnessing is the death rattle of the conservatives that have ruled Thailand for the past 200 years.

The old families with close ties to the ancient power structure, with enormous wealth, with close family ties to the military who walk on the heads of ordinary Thais.

Who treat farmers and workers as mere chattels, who have raped the natural resources of the nation, who own just about everything.

They are responsible for the yellow shirts.

They know that if the workers and farmers become organised and elect their own leaders, instead of accepting these Democrat puppets, they lose everything.

They will use every dirty trick in the book including patriotism (the last refuge of the scoundrel) to cling on to power and keep the people ignorant.

That is why they have brought on the last coup, to get rid of the Thaksin and to install a puppet (Abhisit).

However, you can't put the genie back in the bottle, and the people have elected Yingluck.

No matter what anyone says about her brother, she was elected in an overwhelming victory and she is the leader.

Suthep is just a lackey for the old clique and he uses the Yellow shirts and patriotism as his weapons to try and force out a democratically elected government.

Can you imagine what would happen if someone tried the same tactics in the UK?

He would be arrested and locked away.

And so it will pass here too, the old clique trying hard to hang on, but they are on a losing game, the people have had enough of the old ways.

They want change and they want to have a say.

The issue of amnesty for Thaksin is a red herring, any excuse will do to keep the pot boiling, to get back into power.

If Thaksin died tomorrow there would be another excuse to try to force out Peu Thai.

They just don't want to live in a democracy where the law would apply to them equally.

And in my 35 years of living here I've watched the poor become politically aware and that's why they vote for PTP.

Democrats are just the old clique, recycled again and again.

Every General when he retires moves straight into the businesses he cultivated through graft and favours during his time in the forces.

It has always been.

That is why the military won't let go of their grip on the throat of the Thai people.

The old families from earliest times control 90% of the economy.

Why would they let the poor spoil their party?

PTP and Thaksin recognised this and brought policies to give them a better go.

The yellows, Suthep and his ilk are just puppets for the real power in Thailand.

Thaksin was an upstart who didn't want to play in their game.

Reminds me a little of Anwar Ibrahim's situation in Malaysia.

He didn't want to play by Mahathir Mohammed's rules so trumped up charges were used to silence him.

Thaksin wasn't a cleanskin, show me one Thai politician who is, but when it suited the Dems, they dragged out the corruption mantra to demonise him.

And all the little public servants in their offices were told to get down to the airport in a yellow shirt and shut it down.

This is as transparent a game as one could wish to see.

I doubt whether the people will ever have real political power here until the military are told to do as they are instructed by a democratically elected government.

As seen in most Western democracies.

That is why Suthep came out with that outrageous idea of an unelected "people's council", they don't want an election, they can't win one.

So the tanks will be rumbling down the streets very soon.

I for one do not condone shutting down airports.

But now you mention it I think Suthep is a scapegoat, think on just this ONE subject, AIRPORT.

This Swampy was another scheme outdated before it was built, in 5 years it was fully stretched ??? good government.

The airport was a mega opportunity for Thaksin to give hoards of his friends businesses MONEY, Look at the price of the airport, but the price is not really the issues , the price reflects the top materials used, NOT THE CASE, runways -taxi ways near all substandard, because why ?? top price big profit--cheap jack construction. PROVED.

Water management for flood prevention funds gone where ?? rice-too much corruption to mention Tablets for ALL children ?? 3 years and 25% have got them, poor school kids. you add the rest.

Like most others here we hear --Suthep---and----the people want democracy-with PTP jail the lot for their crimes--coming soon----THEN VOTE.

Edited February 2, 2014 by ginjag

[blabth]

The obsession with Thaksin is a tragic comedy. Instead to grant amnesty and put strict condition to that, the opposition is giving Thaksin more importance than he deserves. The problem is not Thaksin it is the rich establishment of Thailand, which want the power back. They are using Thaksin to give their ambition a face. Demonstrating against a government against laws will never mobilize so many people but to have Thaksin it is easier. The question is not how will it be after Thaksin the real question will be how will it be with him. It's time for the opposition to address the problems of Thailand that includes also to get a better potential to the north. May be than they would have a chance to come back in power and that with democratic means.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[ginjag]

The obsession with Thaksin is a tragic comedy. Instead to grant amnesty and put strict condition to that, the opposition is giving Thaksin more importance than he deserves. The problem is not Thaksin it is the rich establishment of Thailand, which want the power back. They are using Thaksin to give their ambition a face. Demonstrating against a government against laws will never mobilize so many people but to have Thaksin it is easier. The question is not how will it be after Thaksin the real question will be how will it be with him. It's time for the opposition to address the problems of Thailand that includes also to get a better potential to the north. May be than they would have a chance to come back in power and that with democratic means.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

NO---Thaksin is the tragic comedy-----grant amnesty, who will do this PTP ??? with what conditions ??? the reason for it was near solely for his benefit alone.

Thaksin has been in the press most weeks for 3 years, because he thrives on his importance. his ambition is crazy to want to come back to take the helm -because he still is stupid enough to believe his own ego. To me it is a greed sickness only-together with this limelight thing. Using his sister to achieve it and could well have her jailed---he cares about that ????..... I wouldn't do it to my enemy.

[Why ask]

What supports corruption? Thailand or propaganda? Are you aware of the personal threats, involving family deaths, which occur. It is only violence, and fear of it, which supports corruption, and not sided statements through colour or propaganda (albeit threats carry previous propagandae with them!)

-m.

More Propaganda! seriously I'm beginning to think with all these newbies spouting off that Thaivisa is being overrun by propagandists.

Newbies? 555

[Ozymandias]

on a hindsight - her mistake was resigning and dissolving parliament, believing, that it would diffuse situation and that opposition will stick to their word. However, Democrats decided not to contest an election and thus pulling all their power behind suthep. She had a chance to use police and military to remove protesters from the streets, prevent bangkok shutdown and protection for polling stations, voting papers and boxes.

still, it's not an end for her - she will be elected pm for the second term

Crazy isn't it ??? if then she is elected the courts will most likely take her out with most of the PTP. So what happens then ????

Waste of public money Thailand is short of, What will Issan do when this lot is out ???? who will they vote for the ghosts ???

Unless and until an alternative is provided to the benefits rural northerners get from the PTP being in power, they will continue to vote for it or whatever the next incarnation is. Getting rid of Thaksin & Yingluck will not change that. And if the Democrats do not fill the vacuum created by their disappearance (if indeed that happens) then they will not gain legitimate power again and neither do they deserve to.

Long term, the country needs to cleanse itself of the corrupt and self-serving Dems & Thaksinite parties and find a third way - hopefully younger politicians who are more principled and don't view democracy as a route to personal enrichment.

[northernjohn]

From Thaksin to today?

This dilemma has not started with Thaksin and it will not end with him.

So you are saying that we are in this dilemma because of some body else years before Thaksin.

I will agree with you on the part where a large part of the dilemma is caused by all the previous governments ignoring the lack of education. That includes the PTP.

Also the next door to useless journalism in this country. One English paper with any credentials and it is not allowed on this forum. I highly doubt there is a newsman in the country that would even have a clue as to what investigative journalism is. It seems they print any thing they want. Facts are unimportant to them.

A political neophyte when she took office in 2011, the 46-year-old former business executive surprised many observers by steadying Thailand after years of often bloody political unrest.

I give that as an example. She did nothing except stop the red shirts from causing it being as she was acting under the orders of her brother the same as they were.

Maybe some people with no education or sense what so ever were surprised but I would bet that 95% of the population was not surprised.

But after her landslide victory in July 2011,

Less than half is a landslide? it was 48% for the PTP. The big question that has never been asked by any one other than me is how many of that 48% was for Yingluck and how much for Thaksin.

The whole article is fluff. No meat in it just the normal run of the mill what will sell the most papers journalism.

All countries will have their dilemmas. The secret is to deal with them in an open and honest fashion. Stop trying to blame people who may be dead for years. The problem is today deal with it today.

People may not and do not like Suthep's idea of how to deal with it but he has the guts to say it is wrong let us fix it. Rather than say nothing wrong with it we should split the country up into two different countries.

It grieves me to see Thailand perpetually continue with the nonsense of the people don't count. Just we in positions of power and access to the pig trough count.

[ginjag]

on a hindsight - her mistake was resigning and dissolving parliament, believing, that it would diffuse situation and that opposition will stick to their word. However, Democrats decided not to contest an election and thus pulling all their power behind suthep. She had a chance to use police and military to remove protesters from the streets, prevent bangkok shutdown and protection for polling stations, voting papers and boxes.

still, it's not an end for her - she will be elected pm for the second term

Crazy isn't it ??? if then she is elected the courts will most likely take her out with most of the PTP. So what happens then ????

Waste of public money Thailand is short of, What will Issan do when this lot is out ???? who will they vote for the ghosts ???

Unless and until an alternative is provided to the benefits rural northerners get from the PTP being in power, they will continue to vote for it or whatever the next incarnation is. Getting rid of Thaksin & Yingluck will not change that. And if the Democrats do not fill the vacuum created by their disappearance (if indeed that happens) then they will not gain legitimate power again and neither do they deserve to.

Long term, the country needs to cleanse itself of the corrupt and self-serving Dems & Thaksinite parties and find a third way - hopefully younger politicians who are more principled and don't view democracy as a route to personal enrichment.

agree with that, Thaksin and Yingluck out the picture, also with the PTP being disbanded-in all this rice etc farce, New election will have to take place.

What then is the Issan people going to do, ??? most don't know any other - they have been impregnated for want of a better word, how do you teach old dog new tricks, but with THEIR party not around they are in nowhere land.

[Why ask]

on a hindsight - her mistake was resigning and dissolving parliament, believing, that it would diffuse situation and that opposition will stick to their word. However, Democrats decided not to contest an election and thus pulling all their power behind suthep. She had a chance to use police and military to remove protesters from the streets, prevent bangkok shutdown and protection for polling stations, voting papers and boxes.

still, it's not an end for her - she will be elected pm for the second term

Crazy isn't it ??? if then she is elected the courts will most likely take her out with most of the PTP. So what happens then ????

Waste of public money Thailand is short of, What will Issan do when this lot is out ???? who will they vote for the ghosts ???

Unless and until an alternative is provided to the benefits rural northerners get from the PTP being in power, they will continue to vote for it or whatever the next incarnation is. Getting rid of Thaksin & Yingluck will not change that. And if the Democrats do not fill the vacuum created by their disappearance (if indeed that happens) then they will not gain legitimate power again and neither do they deserve to.

Long term, the country needs to cleanse itself of the corrupt and self-serving Dems & Thaksinite parties and find a third way - hopefully younger politicians who are more principled and don't view democracy as a route to personal enrichment.

agree with that, Thaksin and Yingluck out the picture, also with the PTP being disbanded-in all this rice etc farce, New election will have to take place.

What then is the Issan people going to do, ??? most don't know any other - they have been impregnated for want of a better word, how do you teach old dog new tricks, but with THEIR party not around they are in nowhere land.

'indoctrinated' for want of a better word, if you please.

[ginjag]

Crazy isn't it ??? if then she is elected the courts will most likely take her out with most of the PTP. So what happens then ????

Waste of public money Thailand is short of, What will Issan do when this lot is out ???? who will they vote for the ghosts ???

Unless and until an alternative is provided to the benefits rural northerners get from the PTP being in power, they will continue to vote for it or whatever the next incarnation is. Getting rid of Thaksin & Yingluck will not change that. And if the Democrats do not fill the vacuum created by their disappearance (if indeed that happens) then they will not gain legitimate power again and neither do they deserve to.

Long term, the country needs to cleanse itself of the corrupt and self-serving Dems & Thaksinite parties and find a third way - hopefully younger politicians who are more principled and don't view democracy as a route to personal enrichment.

agree with that, Thaksin and Yingluck out the picture, also with the PTP being disbanded-in all this rice etc farce, New election will have to take place.

What then is the Issan people going to do, ??? most don't know any other - they have been impregnated for want of a better word, how do you teach old dog new tricks, but with THEIR party not around they are in nowhere land.

'indoctrinated' for want of a better word, if you please.

I loved the sound of the word, but your quite correct to point it out........ but I still like my version.

[Thai at Heart]

How did we end up here?

To much ego, no equality, not enough brain power.

[lostinsurin]

RT@veen_NT:

Rocker Sek Loso at a polling booth (via @Buttree_TRnews ) เสก โลโซ ที่หน่วยเลือกตั้งที่ 33 pic.twitter.com/GFAZ3842MI

Looks spliffingly happy.

LOOKS like an asshol_e, uneducated boy to me...... but then again, if you're cool on guitar in Thailand you can go to the very top, especially in the north.

If with an impure mind a person speaks then who's the asshol_e?

Edited February 2, 2014 by lostinsurin

[wolf5370]

Usual arguments from the usual suspects on both sides of the court (antagonist regurgitating the same old crap that has either been poo-pooed or is completely without evidence - whilst their protagonists gleefully pat them on the back like they did the other 900 times they said the same thing - sheesh this forum could almost be an automated script!).

Common statement: "It didn't start with Thaksin"/"Thailand has always been corrupt"/"Botth sides are the same, they are all corrupt"/etc -- that is all true, but as the past cannot be changed, and its only those in power that hold any weight, then it is also completely irrelevant - we (meaning the Thai people of course - not us farang TVers) can only hope to fix the current situation for the benefit of the future - anything else is an excuse to keep the status quo.

Common statement: "PTP were elected, unlike the Dems, and have been at every election since 2001"/"The protestors/yellows/Elitist/PAD/anti-government protestors/whatever do not respect democracy/the people vote because PTP were voted in by the majority of the people"/"The elected government can govern how they please, the people voted them in by a landslide, they should be allowed to govern the way the people wanted"/etc - Ignoring the pedantic, not a majority of the people, the highest number of those that voted, blurb (which may be true - but is the only mark of an election, so calling it not the majority is semantics - just as likely those that didn't vote were pro and against) - being voted it is only one part of the democratic system - if other parts are breached, the people have the right to demand a forum and at most, perhaps, a re-election. An elected government has an obligation to not only support their party members, and voters, but every citizen in the country - even their detractors - that's what a democracy is all about, and it was the pre-Thaksin (pre-2001) governments ignoring the poor that caused the Red rising in the first place, repeating it is a folly.

Common statement: "The bill was passed in parliament and beaten in congress, so there was nothing untoward, just a natural domestic process"/"The Dems et al had the ability to beat down the amnesty bill and didn't"/"the CC had no right to cast out an act passed by government"/etc: There were many underhand things going on here - the tagging of the bill (amending to include leaders and "crimes" not related to the protests) - telling the House that debate is adjourned for 9 hours and then voting at 4am (4 hours later) when the opposition had mostly retired - reaction of the government to the CCs decision, even up to threat of legal reprisal - tampering with congress - and so on. This is also just one tiny part - the ignition of the protests - but there have been plenty of other issues, the bill to alter congress (which was acceptable to most at first, but...) allowing siblings to sit / huge loan without passing through the Finance Department for budgeting, or plan and no parliamentary debate / Rice pledging scheme / tablets / floods / high speed raillink / etc etc etc.

Common statement: "Suthep is as/more corrupt"/"Dems were corrupt - just look at the road widening scheme and the dirt road dusting scheme etc"/etc: That may be so, and would be relevant if they were in power, or the thread is about voting for them to be so. Currently neither is true - Dems have a chance in h3ll of getting in (especially as they all quit and refused to vote! - yes, fairly empty gesture), Suthep states he has no interest in mainstream politics anymore and after the "struggle" will retire - believe that or not, his past would be relevant and subject to scrutiny if that position changed, as it has not yet - irrelevant.

It may sound one sided, but that is because it always is - its the government that has to be true, not the opposition or other political pressure groups - the government that has a mandate to protect and work for the people - all of them - if the Dems were in power (fat chance yes, but hey) then the shoe would be on the other foot - simply saying the others are/were bad is not an excuse to allow whichever current lot are bad to persist in being so.

It would be so nice to have a friendly debate and discussion about Thai politics and events without the same extremist BS raising its head over and over : 2010 Bkk riots is past, get over it - PAD's airport take over is past, get over it - Suthep/Abhisit/Dems/Yellow/whoever not in power's history (alledged or proven) , is not a relevant or applicable excuse for people currently in power to get away with it - anymore than it would have been for Abhisit to claim it is OK to extra-judicially execute 1000s of suspected drug dealers, because Thakisin allegedly did. It is truly boring having the same posts over and over from the same people - both sides of the camp - and threads drowned out with extremist drivel and propaganda - we heard it already, the first 900 times you said it!

[Thai at Heart]

Usual arguments from the usual suspects on both sides of the court (antagonist regurgitating the same old crap that has either been poo-pooed or is completely without evidence - whilst their protagonists gleefully pat them on the back like they did the other 900 times they said the same thing - sheesh this forum could almost be an automated script!).

Common statement: "It didn't start with Thaksin"/"Thailand has always been corrupt"/"Botth sides are the same, they are all corrupt"/etc -- that is all true, but as the past cannot be changed, and its only those in power that hold any weight, then it is also completely irrelevant - we (meaning the Thai people of course - not us farang TVers) can only hope to fix the current situation for the benefit of the future - anything else is an excuse to keep the status quo.

Common statement: "PTP were elected, unlike the Dems, and have been at every election since 2001"/"The protestors/yellows/Elitist/PAD/anti-government protestors/whatever do not respect democracy/the people vote because PTP were voted in by the majority of the people"/"The elected government can govern how they please, the people voted them in by a landslide, they should be allowed to govern the way the people wanted"/etc - Ignoring the pedantic, not a majority of the people, the highest number of those that voted, blurb (which may be true - but is the only mark of an election, so calling it not the majority is semantics - just as likely those that didn't vote were pro and against) - being voted it is only one part of the democratic system - if other parts are breached, the people have the right to demand a forum and at most, perhaps, a re-election. An elected government has an obligation to not only support their party members, and voters, but every citizen in the country - even their detractors - that's what a democracy is all about, and it was the pre-Thaksin (pre-2001) governments ignoring the poor that caused the Red rising in the first place, repeating it is a folly.

Common statement: "The bill was passed in parliament and beaten in congress, so there was nothing untoward, just a natural domestic process"/"The Dems et al had the ability to beat down the amnesty bill and didn't"/"the CC had no right to cast out an act passed by government"/etc: There were many underhand things going on here - the tagging of the bill (amending to include leaders and "crimes" not related to the protests) - telling the House that debate is adjourned for 9 hours and then voting at 4am (4 hours later) when the opposition had mostly retired - reaction of the government to the CCs decision, even up to threat of legal reprisal - tampering with congress - and so on. This is also just one tiny part - the ignition of the protests - but there have been plenty of other issues, the bill to alter congress (which was acceptable to most at first, but...) allowing siblings to sit / huge loan without passing through the Finance Department for budgeting, or plan and no parliamentary debate / Rice pledging scheme / tablets / floods / high speed raillink / etc etc etc.

Common statement: "Suthep is as/more corrupt"/"Dems were corrupt - just look at the road widening scheme and the dirt road dusting scheme etc"/etc: That may be so, and would be relevant if they were in power, or the thread is about voting for them to be so. Currently neither is true - Dems have a chance in h3ll of getting in (especially as they all quit and refused to vote! - yes, fairly empty gesture), Suthep states he has no interest in mainstream politics anymore and after the "struggle" will retire - believe that or not, his past would be relevant and subject to scrutiny if that position changed, as it has not yet - irrelevant.

It may sound one sided, but that is because it always is - its the government that has to be true, not the opposition or other political pressure groups - the government that has a mandate to protect and work for the people - all of them - if the Dems were in power (fat chance yes, but hey) then the shoe would be on the other foot - simply saying the others are/were bad is not an excuse to allow whichever current lot are bad to persist in being so.

It would be so nice to have a friendly debate and discussion about Thai politics and events without the same extremist BS raising its head over and over : 2010 Bkk riots is past, get over it - PAD's airport take over is past, get over it - Suthep/Abhisit/Dems/Yellow/whoever not in power's history (alledged or proven) , is not a relevant or applicable excuse for people currently in power to get away with it - anymore than it would have been for Abhisit to claim it is OK to extra-judicially execute 1000s of suspected drug dealers, because Thakisin allegedly did. It is truly boring having the same posts over and over from the same people - both sides of the camp - and threads drowned out with extremist drivel and propaganda - we heard it already, the first 900 times you said it!

That would all be fine if the person bringing the protests wasn't part of the problem, and the proposal for reform so entirely likely to be skewed to turning the country to the right politocally.

The cure is probably going to make the problem worse not better. I await to be surprised, but what odds that the reforms are likely to create changes to the legal system, the role of the army, the senate, etc etc in order to increase and strengthen democracy or be aimed solely to remove Thaksin from the situation and cement the democrats and the amart in place?

[Scott]

Inflammatory, off-topic posts containing profanity and replies have been deleted.

[Bakseeda]

From Thaksin to today?

This dilemma has not started with Thaksin and it will not end with him.

The protests since 2005 have mainly been about or heavily involved Thaksin. It would be a huge step towards the end if Thaksin and his family stepped away from politics.

Would'nt it just be G-R-E-A-T if Thaksin had a heart attack and died..... God Speed...

[wolf5370]

<snip - for brevity>

That would all be fine if the person bringing the protests wasn't part of the problem, and the proposal for reform so entirely likely to be skewed to turning the country to the right politocally.

The cure is probably going to make the problem worse not better. I await to be surprised, but what odds that the reforms are likely to create changes to the legal system, the role of the army, the senate, etc etc in order to increase and strengthen democracy or be aimed solely to remove Thaksin from the situation and cement the democrats and the amart in place?

No that's what I meant - a proper discussion point - not repeated hyperbole

I agree that Suthep is part of the problem, but he has traction and a fair size following - quite a few of which were there before he was (albeit anti-amnesty, not anti-gov) - a dispossessed section of society is a dispossessed section of society, favouritist (OK made that word up - but nepotistic seemed too strong or and narrow) policies does little more than exacerbate the "them and us" ethos (though it did perhaps flip it from the haves and have-nots).

The cure is as slippery as an ill - or at least very elusive. I think reform is certainly needed, but can Suthep be trusted to be any less biased than the government? Appointing the 600 in an unbiased way would be a nightmare - maybe they should do it like kids do picking a football team - each puts forward 500 people - and they get a pick each until the 600 jobs are full (perhaps with a voir dire and peremptory process like used in jury selection).

To tell the truth I can't see it ever happening anyway - much more likely that either: 1. PTP get re-elected, possibly with a change of leader, and that appeases the people enough; or 2. YS is impeached/pushed out and PTP disbanded and another group, maybe made from the non Pro-Thaksin Red leadership, form a replacement with all the best from the Red camp without the worst of it (guess a fuzzy line there of course). Personally, I hope for option 2, because I can't see option 1 appeasing people for long. That would really stir up the old guard though - removing the elite from power entirely - though that may take some appeasing of the military afterwards.

BTW turns out the PM's vote was void as she posted it in the wrong box (at least she spelled the "x" correctly).

[Scott]

Usual arguments from the usual suspects on both sides of the court (antagonist regurgitating the same old crap that has either been poo-pooed or is completely without evidence - whilst their protagonists gleefully pat them on the back like they did the other 900 times they said the same thing - sheesh this forum could almost be an automated script!).

Common statement: "It didn't start with Thaksin"/"Thailand has always been corrupt"/"Botth sides are the same, they are all corrupt"/etc -- that is all true, but as the past cannot be changed, and its only those in power that hold any weight, then it is also completely irrelevant - we (meaning the Thai people of course - not us farang TVers) can only hope to fix the current situation for the benefit of the future - anything else is an excuse to keep the status quo.

Common statement: "PTP were elected, unlike the Dems, and have been at every election since 2001"/"The protestors/yellows/Elitist/PAD/anti-government protestors/whatever do not respect democracy/the people vote because PTP were voted in by the majority of the people"/"The elected government can govern how they please, the people voted them in by a landslide, they should be allowed to govern the way the people wanted"/etc - Ignoring the pedantic, not a majority of the people, the highest number of those that voted, blurb (which may be true - but is the only mark of an election, so calling it not the majority is semantics - just as likely those that didn't vote were pro and against) - being voted it is only one part of the democratic system - if other parts are breached, the people have the right to demand a forum and at most, perhaps, a re-election. An elected government has an obligation to not only support their party members, and voters, but every citizen in the country - even their detractors - that's what a democracy is all about, and it was the pre-Thaksin (pre-2001) governments ignoring the poor that caused the Red rising in the first place, repeating it is a folly.

Common statement: "The bill was passed in parliament and beaten in congress, so there was nothing untoward, just a natural domestic process"/"The Dems et al had the ability to beat down the amnesty bill and didn't"/"the CC had no right to cast out an act passed by government"/etc: There were many underhand things going on here - the tagging of the bill (amending to include leaders and "crimes" not related to the protests) - telling the House that debate is adjourned for 9 hours and then voting at 4am (4 hours later) when the opposition had mostly retired - reaction of the government to the CCs decision, even up to threat of legal reprisal - tampering with congress - and so on. This is also just one tiny part - the ignition of the protests - but there have been plenty of other issues, the bill to alter congress (which was acceptable to most at first, but...) allowing siblings to sit / huge loan without passing through the Finance Department for budgeting, or plan and no parliamentary debate / Rice pledging scheme / tablets / floods / high speed raillink / etc etc etc.

Common statement: "Suthep is as/more corrupt"/"Dems were corrupt - just look at the road widening scheme and the dirt road dusting scheme etc"/etc: That may be so, and would be relevant if they were in power, or the thread is about voting for them to be so. Currently neither is true - Dems have a chance in h3ll of getting in (especially as they all quit and refused to vote! - yes, fairly empty gesture), Suthep states he has no interest in mainstream politics anymore and after the "struggle" will retire - believe that or not, his past would be relevant and subject to scrutiny if that position changed, as it has not yet - irrelevant.

It may sound one sided, but that is because it always is - its the government that has to be true, not the opposition or other political pressure groups - the government that has a mandate to protect and work for the people - all of them - if the Dems were in power (fat chance yes, but hey) then the shoe would be on the other foot - simply saying the others are/were bad is not an excuse to allow whichever current lot are bad to persist in being so.

It would be so nice to have a friendly debate and discussion about Thai politics and events without the same extremist BS raising its head over and over : 2010 Bkk riots is past, get over it - PAD's airport take over is past, get over it - Suthep/Abhisit/Dems/Yellow/whoever not in power's history (alledged or proven) , is not a relevant or applicable excuse for people currently in power to get away with it - anymore than it would have been for Abhisit to claim it is OK to extra-judicially execute 1000s of suspected drug dealers, because Thakisin allegedly did. It is truly boring having the same posts over and over from the same people - both sides of the camp - and threads drowned out with extremist drivel and propaganda - we heard it already, the first 900 times you said it!

I don't agree with everything you said, but you certainly said it well. Hopefully, your advice will be heeded.

[whybother]

on a hindsight - her mistake was resigning and dissolving parliament, believing, that it would diffuse situation and that opposition will stick to their word. However, Democrats decided not to contest an election and thus pulling all their power behind suthep. She had a chance to use police and military to remove protesters from the streets, prevent bangkok shutdown and protection for polling stations, voting papers and boxes.

still, it's not an end for her - she will be elected pm for the second term

Crazy isn't it ??? if then she is elected the courts will most likely take her out with most of the PTP. So what happens then ????

Waste of public money Thailand is short of, What will Issan do when this lot is out ???? who will they vote for the ghosts ???

Unless and until an alternative is provided to the benefits rural northerners get from the PTP being in power, they will continue to vote for it or whatever the next incarnation is. Getting rid of Thaksin & Yingluck will not change that. And if the Democrats do not fill the vacuum created by their disappearance (if indeed that happens) then they will not gain legitimate power again and neither do they deserve to.

Long term, the country needs to cleanse itself of the corrupt and self-serving Dems & Thaksinite parties and find a third way - hopefully younger politicians who are more principled and don't view democracy as a route to personal enrichment.

It doesn't need to be a choice between Yingluck and Suthep, or Yingluck and the Democrats. How about Yingluck (and family) get out of politics, and PTP stay where they are with someone else up front?

Sent from my phone ...

[3NUMBAS]

thaksin opended their eyes and showed them the BKK elites were taking the wee wee and keeping em poor like serfs ,and you cant put the genie back into the bottle

Edited February 2, 2014 by 3NUMBAS

[blabth]

The obsession with Thaksin is a tragic comedy. Instead to grant amnesty and put strict condition to that, the opposition is giving Thaksin more importance than he deserves. The problem is not Thaksin it is the rich establishment of Thailand, which want the power back. They are using Thaksin to give their ambition a face. Demonstrating against a government against laws will never mobilize so many people but to have Thaksin it is easier. The question is not how will it be after Thaksin the real question will be how will it be with him. It's time for the opposition to address the problems of Thailand that includes also to get a better potential to the north. May be than they would have a chance to come back in power and that with democratic means.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

NO---Thaksin is the tragic comedy-----grant amnesty, who will do this PTP ??? with what conditions ??? the reason for it was near solely for his benefit alone.

Thaksin has been in the press most weeks for 3 years, because he thrives on his importance. his ambition is crazy to want to come back to take the helm -because he still is stupid enough to believe his own ego. To me it is a greed sickness only-together with this limelight thing. Using his sister to achieve it and could well have her jailed---he cares about that ????..... I wouldn't do it to my enemy.

Do you really believe with the removal of Yingluck the problem of Thaksin will be solved. He will be still there, people in the North will feel that they have no rights. The solidarity with Thaksin will be even more. Is that the good condition for a start.

Only a cut with amnesty will bring people together. It is better to have Thaksin in Thailand with strict conditions, than he would be under control at least up to a certain level. You can believe me I never liked Thaksin but you have to admit that he is playing his cards well.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Why ask]

Usual arguments from the usual suspects on both sides of the court (antagonist regurgitating the same old crap that has either been poo-pooed or is completely without evidence - whilst their protagonists gleefully pat them on the back like they did the other 900 times they said the same thing - sheesh this forum could almost be an automated script!).

Common statement: "It didn't start with Thaksin"/"Thailand has always been corrupt"/"Botth sides are the same, they are all corrupt"/etc -- that is all true, but as the past cannot be changed, and its only those in power that hold any weight, then it is also completely irrelevant - we (meaning the Thai people of course - not us farang TVers) can only hope to fix the current situation for the benefit of the future - anything else is an excuse to keep the status quo.

Common statement: "PTP were elected, unlike the Dems, and have been at every election since 2001"/"The protestors/yellows/Elitist/PAD/anti-government protestors/whatever do not respect democracy/the people vote because PTP were voted in by the majority of the people"/"The elected government can govern how they please, the people voted them in by a landslide, they should be allowed to govern the way the people wanted"/etc - Ignoring the pedantic, not a majority of the people, the highest number of those that voted, blurb (which may be true - but is the only mark of an election, so calling it not the majority is semantics - just as likely those that didn't vote were pro and against) - being voted it is only one part of the democratic system - if other parts are breached, the people have the right to demand a forum and at most, perhaps, a re-election. An elected government has an obligation to not only support their party members, and voters, but every citizen in the country - even their detractors - that's what a democracy is all about, and it was the pre-Thaksin (pre-2001) governments ignoring the poor that caused the Red rising in the first place, repeating it is a folly.

Common statement: "The bill was passed in parliament and beaten in congress, so there was nothing untoward, just a natural domestic process"/"The Dems et al had the ability to beat down the amnesty bill and didn't"/"the CC had no right to cast out an act passed by government"/etc: There were many underhand things going on here - the tagging of the bill (amending to include leaders and "crimes" not related to the protests) - telling the House that debate is adjourned for 9 hours and then voting at 4am (4 hours later) when the opposition had mostly retired - reaction of the government to the CCs decision, even up to threat of legal reprisal - tampering with congress - and so on. This is also just one tiny part - the ignition of the protests - but there have been plenty of other issues, the bill to alter congress (which was acceptable to most at first, but...) allowing siblings to sit / huge loan without passing through the Finance Department for budgeting, or plan and no parliamentary debate / Rice pledging scheme / tablets / floods / high speed raillink / etc etc etc.

Common statement: "Suthep is as/more corrupt"/"Dems were corrupt - just look at the road widening scheme and the dirt road dusting scheme etc"/etc: That may be so, and would be relevant if they were in power, or the thread is about voting for them to be so. Currently neither is true - Dems have a chance in h3ll of getting in (especially as they all quit and refused to vote! - yes, fairly empty gesture), Suthep states he has no interest in mainstream politics anymore and after the "struggle" will retire - believe that or not, his past would be relevant and subject to scrutiny if that position changed, as it has not yet - irrelevant.

It may sound one sided, but that is because it always is - its the government that has to be true, not the opposition or other political pressure groups - the government that has a mandate to protect and work for the people - all of them - if the Dems were in power (fat chance yes, but hey) then the shoe would be on the other foot - simply saying the others are/were bad is not an excuse to allow whichever current lot are bad to persist in being so.

It would be so nice to have a friendly debate and discussion about Thai politics and events without the same extremist BS raising its head over and over : 2010 Bkk riots is past, get over it - PAD's airport take over is past, get over it - Suthep/Abhisit/Dems/Yellow/whoever not in power's history (alledged or proven) , is not a relevant or applicable excuse for people currently in power to get away with it - anymore than it would have been for Abhisit to claim it is OK to extra-judicially execute 1000s of suspected drug dealers, because Thakisin allegedly did. It is truly boring having the same posts over and over from the same people - both sides of the camp - and threads drowned out with extremist drivel and propaganda - we heard it already, the first 900 times you said it!

I don't agree with everything you said, but you certainly said it well. Hopefully, your advice will be heeded.

If the advice was heeded there would be no forum, or maybe a forum of little worth. It is a sharing of opinions, no matter how bored one can become, which exalts development.

However, what was relatively well presented was from a totally Western point of view of matters, attempting to apply Western psychology and governmental points of view (especially when pertaining to a government having a mandate to work for the people!), and said observer has a choice to read continued drivel, or not. Soliloquies of opinion do not construct debate for development of what exists and needs changing. Stay with a wheel, and go round and around forever!

[Thai at Heart]

<snip - for brevity>

That would all be fine if the person bringing the protests wasn't part of the problem, and the proposal for reform so entirely likely to be skewed to turning the country to the right politocally.

The cure is probably going to make the problem worse not better. I await to be surprised, but what odds that the reforms are likely to create changes to the legal system, the role of the army, the senate, etc etc in order to increase and strengthen democracy or be aimed solely to remove Thaksin from the situation and cement the democrats and the amart in place?

No that's what I meant - a proper discussion point - not repeated hyperbole

I agree that Suthep is part of the problem, but he has traction and a fair size following - quite a few of which were there before he was (albeit anti-amnesty, not anti-gov) - a dispossessed section of society is a dispossessed section of society, favouritist (OK made that word up - but nepotistic seemed too strong or and narrow) policies does little more than exacerbate the "them and us" ethos (though it did perhaps flip it from the haves and have-nots).

The cure is as slippery as an ill - or at least very elusive. I think reform is certainly needed, but can Suthep be trusted to be any less biased than the government? Appointing the 600 in an unbiased way would be a nightmare - maybe they should do it like kids do picking a football team - each puts forward 500 people - and they get a pick each until the 600 jobs are full (perhaps with a voir dire and peremptory process like used in jury selection).

To tell the truth I can't see it ever happening anyway - much more likely that either: 1. PTP get re-elected, possibly with a change of leader, and that appeases the people enough; or 2. YS is impeached/pushed out and PTP disbanded and another group, maybe made from the non Pro-Thaksin Red leadership, form a replacement with all the best from the Red camp without the worst of it (guess a fuzzy line there of course). Personally, I hope for option 2, because I can't see option 1 appeasing people for long. That would really stir up the old guard though - removing the elite from power entirely - though that may take some appeasing of the military afterwards.

BTW turns out the PM's vote was void as she posted it in the wrong box (at least she spelled the "x" correctly).

I don't see why the anti people have to be appeased? They don't represent a majority and, and are probably a long way from.making one.

The thing would be for a political party to come along and compete. This cycle of victory by street protest has to stop.

[ginjag]

The obsession with Thaksin is a tragic comedy. Instead to grant amnesty and put strict condition to that, the opposition is giving Thaksin more importance than he deserves. The problem is not Thaksin it is the rich establishment of Thailand, which want the power back. They are using Thaksin to give their ambition a face. Demonstrating against a government against laws will never mobilize so many people but to have Thaksin it is easier. The question is not how will it be after Thaksin the real question will be how will it be with him. It's time for the opposition to address the problems of Thailand that includes also to get a better potential to the north. May be than they would have a chance to come back in power and that with democratic means.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

NO---Thaksin is the tragic comedy-----grant amnesty, who will do this PTP ??? with what conditions ??? the reason for it was near solely for his benefit alone.

Thaksin has been in the press most weeks for 3 years, because he thrives on his importance. his ambition is crazy to want to come back to take the helm -because he still is stupid enough to believe his own ego. To me it is a greed sickness only-together with this limelight thing. Using his sister to achieve it and could well have her jailed---he cares about that ????..... I wouldn't do it to my enemy.

Do you really believe with the removal of Yingluck the problem of Thaksin will be solved. He will be still there, people in the North will feel that they have no rights. The solidarity with Thaksin will be even more. Is that the good condition for a start.

Only a cut with amnesty will bring people together. It is better to have Thaksin in Thailand with strict conditions, than he would be under control at least up to a certain level. You can believe me I never liked Thaksin but you have to admit that he is playing his cards well.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Quite frankly he shouldn't be allowed the pack of cards.

The problem without the family would be a brill step towards whatever, when the courts decide re--government misconduct, the Thai people will then start to understand more--especially the young school and uni students. it is them that will take Thailand out of the S##T.

Amnesty==am-nasty, never-just try all in the court for injustice. what about the kids in lock-up that tried a magic pill ?? they are not getting out.

Amnesty is an excuse to let off criminals.

[Thai at Heart]

on a hindsight - her mistake was resigning and dissolving parliament, believing, that it would diffuse situation and that opposition will stick to their word. However, Democrats decided not to contest an election and thus pulling all their power behind suthep. She had a chance to use police and military to remove protesters from the streets, prevent bangkok shutdown and protection for polling stations, voting papers and boxes.

still, it's not an end for her - she will be elected pm for the second term

Crazy isn't it ??? if then she is elected the courts will most likely take her out with most of the PTP. So what happens then ????

Waste of public money Thailand is short of, What will Issan do when this lot is out ???? who will they vote for the ghosts ???

Unless and until an alternative is provided to the benefits rural northerners get from the PTP being in power, they will continue to vote for it or whatever the next incarnation is. Getting rid of Thaksin & Yingluck will not change that. And if the Democrats do not fill the vacuum created by their disappearance (if indeed that happens) then they will not gain legitimate power again and neither do they deserve to.

Long term, the country needs to cleanse itself of the corrupt and self-serving Dems & Thaksinite parties and find a third way - hopefully younger politicians who are more principled and don't view democracy as a route to personal enrichment.

It doesn't need to be a choice between Yingluck and Suthep, or Yingluck and the Democrats. How about Yingluck (and family) get out of politics, and PTP stay where they are with someone else up front?

Sent from my phone ...

And as a 10,000,000,USD question I think we know that Suthep doesn't want that either. They think it all ends with thaksin.

I am not so sure.