China cancels Thailand rice deal amid probe

[rametindallas]

I wondered why Yingluck was the chairwoman of the rice mortgage committee scheme, after all her knowledge about rice is probably limited to cooking.

Apparently it was considered appropriate and a chance for the fledgling PM to bask in the glory of this revolutionary ingenious scheme to help both Thai farmers and push up the world price of rice.

She must be cursing big brother now. I wonder if he is burying his head in the sand of Dubai?

".......after all her knowledge about rice is probably limited to cooking."

I fear you give the lady too much credit. Although she has been photographed stirring noodles in a wok, I venture that the closest she has got to cooking rice has been when she's popped down to the cooks kitchen at home to ask when dinner will be served.

Hi-Sos don't cook. Pol. Capt. Chalerm even has a man to tie his shoes for him when he comes out of temple. Labor is too cheap for the wealthy of Bangkok..

[Ricardo]

Ok, PRBKK, read this as it will surly answer your question IMHO the best post i have read on this subject

Thanks for the kind words, Chupup. Needless to say, I am not enamoured with the scheme :-)

The degree of lies relating to this program is simply unreal; that there is no real oversight and total denial of the problems is exactly why PT have ended up with the current situation - note they could have raised funds easily - instead they spent their time (when they knew they would run out of cash in Oct) misrepresenting the impact of G2G and pretending it would all be ok; I can only guess so that things would seem good and they could force through the amnesty bill while avoiding the censure debate in Nov.

In other words, I would imagine they believed the freedom of 1 man ranked higher than the welfare of millions of rice farmers.

They chose to conceal the lies about the scheme in the censure debate against them in late November, although it did emerge that Yingluck had 'never attended' meetings relating to rice policy, even as the chairwoman of the policy committee.

They were then given the opportunity to raise funds since Nov (when they started defaulting) but since they were bound by their own lies, I honestly think they forgot how important it would be to secure the budget before calling a snap election. They then tried to pressure the EC to rule on it, which failed since the EC has no ability to provide budget for it and most people saw through the cynical scheme. By this time, they left it so late, it was difficult to use their normal method of Enron style off balance sheet style financing from KTB/BAAC etc. EC told them they could still go ahead and pay for it...but it was on them.

They chose, once again, to look after themselves rather than their farmer voting base.

It is hard to imagine a more idiotic way to run a country and waste 700 billion baht. To put in perspective, there are approximately 7m tax payers in Thailand, each is paying into this scheme on average approximately 100,000b, which is then mostly going to govt parties, and a few crumbs to the farmers*.

Nice work if you are on the govt side, pretty lame if you are a farmer, and absolutely awful if you are the one paying for it.

* I ain't an accountant, so me numbers might be wrong. Maybe I can be Finance Minister. I am also good at not turning up to work, and I like flying around the world. Maybe I can be Prime Minista.

I like your first post, and agree with a lot of the second.

However, I'm sure there are significantly more than 7m tax payers in Thailand, and where does each paying 100,000 B into the rice scheme come from?

Is that the planned payback over 50 years by the pyschotics who initiated the scam?... you lost me at the end.

-m.

"where does each paying 100,000 B into the rice scheme come from ?"

I would deduce that this figure is the result, of dividing the B700-billion invested/lost in the rice-scheme, by the 7-million taxpayers in Thailand, giving an average indirect-contribution of B100,000-per-taxpayer ?

And given that most people here buy VAT-rated items, or alcohol/tobacco on which excise-duty would be charged, or petrol/diesel for their cars/motorbikes, there would IMO be a majority of the population who pay some sort of taxes towards the government's income.

Any reference to "50 years" would probably be the term of the borrowing required, to fund the PTP/government B2.2-trillion infrastructure-spending plans, a different scheme and which now seems less-likely to go ahead in its current form, since there's still no real payback-justification for it, and the government is having such difficulty borrowing a more-trivial sum ?

[GentlemanJim]

Well it would now transpire that PTP are trying to achieve two things. Firstly they are making a crude attempt (but will probably be successful) to stop the NACC from investigating any further in the rice scam because the company concerned with the G2G deal has now 'pulled' out of the deal (can't have been a very tight contract if they can pull out over an investigation in to corruption!). Secondly they are trying every way possible to mobilize the Farmer Army into believing that their current and possibly future hardship is all the fault of Suthep since December. These clowns will not be content until they have pushed this nation in to full blown civil war.

I also think that with the comments of Mr Head, being so blatantly opposite from the truth as anyone living in this country would be aware, that either the BBC need to investigate him or someone needs to investigate the BBC because such an obvious disregard for the truth in journalism comes at a price, and I wonder who is paying that bill?

[rametindallas]

The 2 things are completely separate, one the rice pledging ( I don't support, never have), two, the commercial transaction to sell rice to China. Any sane person would support that...it gets the farmers paid and reduces the mountain, albeit at a loss. That transaction has been derailed by Suthep . Tragic for everyone, especially the farmers. I'm not surprised the Chinese got cold feet...but there is no reason why the sale should not proceed. In fact, it's in everyone's best interests that it does so ( apart from a few obsessions who see something corrupt in a straightforward, transparent transaction). Mystifying

I gather, from your posts, that you are easily 'mystified'. Let me try to demystify it for you.

No one but members of the For Thaksin Party have ever stated there even was a GtG deal with China, the OP clearly states that the PT member and Commerce Minister who is a Cabinet member is saying the Chinese dropped the deal because of the NACC investigations. Are you calling the Commerce Minister a liar? a straightforward, transparent transaction these GtG rice deals have not been either straightforward nor transparent. And lastly, even though I already know you won't respond, please explain, even vaguely, how Suthep could be involved with China to influence their business dealings with Thailand. If Suthep has that kind of influence with the Chinese against the Yingluck government, then the Yingluck government is 'done for', kaput, history.

[DrDweeb]

The BBC have long since abandoned impartial reporting. The place is pocked with disaffected no-hopers with agendas and the quality of BBC news has shown it for quite some time.

I am told Al Jazeera is way better source these days, but I do not have access myself. Hell, RT is probably more reliable!

[Thait Spot]

BP raises further concerns today

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[englishoak]

Wow some of you must have been asleep for the past 40 years if you thought the British Brainwashing Cooperation was ever reliable or unbiased for news , it fleeces the whole nation for a licence annually for crissake its about as unbiased as the Nation. its very good on documentaries and nature etc but thats about it, news definitely not

Al jazeer and RT are ironically far more even in reporting than most all western main TV media

[GentlemanJim]

The 2 things are completely separate, one the rice pledging ( I don't support, never have), two, the commercial transaction to sell rice to China. Any sane person would support that...it gets the farmers paid and reduces the mountain, albeit at a loss. That transaction has been derailed by Suthep . Tragic for everyone, especially the farmers. I'm not surprised the Chinese got cold feet...but there is no reason why the sale should not proceed. In fact, it's in everyone's best interests that it does so ( apart from a few obsessions who see something corrupt in a straightforward, transparent transaction). Mystifying

What part of 'The farmers were supposed to be paid in October and the elections did not delay the planned timeline of the sale of rice to a private Chinese company' don't you get?

What part of 'there were no Government to Government deals, it was a lie, admitted by officials and that is why the NACC are now investigating' don't you get?

What part of 'This is nothing to do with Suthep but everything to do with a corrupt, lying self serving Government' don't you get?

Please explain, because for the life of me, as intelligent as you may be I cannot rationalise any thought that would lead me to arrive even remotely close to the conclusions that you are presenting.

[Chao Lao Beach]

not such a surprise

Soon Suthep won t be needed to pull PT out, their voters will do it for him

I think the voters who support PT don't really care much about these things. They are influenced in other ways.

Yeah, 1000B will fix any problems next election.

[belg]

the contract that never excisted is now FACE SAVED as the chinese cancelled the ghost agreement

[patjem]

This is more <deleted>, clearly.

A Chinese state-owned company, dealing rice from Harbin ;(frozen NE corner of China, north from N Korea), with a name that's not even Mandarin Chinese (sounds more Vietnamese).... Who are they and what info can anyone find about them. My Google search on that name only produces this story.

Sounds like more fabrication to me.

[kerrysum]

Guess they figured if they want crappy rice they can get it cheaper from uncle ben.......

I agree.... with giggles......

kilosierra

[animatic]

The 2 things are completely separate, one the rice pledging ( I don't support, never have), two, the commercial transaction to sell rice to China. Any sane person would support that...it gets the farmers paid and reduces the mountain, albeit at a loss. That transaction has been derailed by Suthep . Tragic for everyone, especially the farmers. I'm not surprised the Chinese got cold feet...but there is no reason why the sale should not proceed. In fact, it's in everyone's best interests that it does so ( apart from a few obsessions who see something corrupt in a straightforward, transparent transaction). Mystifying

..... BTW Thailand imports some rice and exports Thai rice - Thai rice used to be world renowned for fragrance, quality and good pricing - at the right price why not sell abroad to other countries who grow rice - no issue. But the problem is trying to corner the market when you are not in an oligopoly situation; Mingkwan tried it in 2007 and it was a disaster...only PT would be so unwise to try the same thing again expecting a different outcome, but I guess its easy when they are only spending our money, not their own.

As I said, if Thaksin wants to support Thai rice farmers only (note there is no similar scheme for other crops) because they think the market price will rise, then the Shinawatras are rich enough to buy the rice for export themselves at the pledge price of 15,000, and they are welcome to the profits stemming from such a venture. No problem.

One sign of insanity is

to repeatedly do something that has had a proven outcome each time,

and expect a different outcome the next time.

Minkwan got shoved aside for admitting his version didn't work publicly.

He has never been brough back into the fold in any sunstantive way, so the follow on Ministers of Utter Bullpoop have learned not to 'tweak the masters moustaches' and expect a different outcome than the whirlwind Minkwan reaped. So they keep spitting out the party line as if it were gospel truth, and not last years kwai droppings turned to dust on their tongues, before they can even spit it out.

[pattayaorganic]

The 2 things are completely separate, one the rice pledging ( I don't support, never have), two, the commercial transaction to sell rice to China. Any sane person would support that...it gets the farmers paid and reduces the mountain, albeit at a loss. That transaction has been derailed by Suthep . Tragic for everyone, especially the farmers. I'm not surprised the Chinese got cold feet...but there is no reason why the sale should not proceed. In fact, it's in everyone's best interests that it does so ( apart from a few obsessions who see something corrupt in a straightforward, transparent transaction). Mystifying

Where you are wrong is in the fact that is was a simple transparent transaction. In China, corruption is a capital offence. Perhaps the allegations that the G2G deal never actually existed are true. From the actions of the buyer, why would any threat of investigation be cause for them to withdraw from the deal unless the deal was actually tainted, or a sham?

If I am going to buy a car from a corrupt car dealer, certainly there are no criminal repercussions for me the buyer. If I thought it was a good deal, then I would proceed. But if this car dealer was publicly accused of fraud, then I would certainly think twice about purchasing my car from him. Caveat Emptor at work here. This can be an alternative explanation to the buyers actions.

However, in no imaginable scenario, can Suthep or anything coming even close to him be the cause for the cancellation of the transaction.

[iancnx]

Makes me laugh. Over on the other thread USA diplomats and the White House voice their concerns and disappointment.

Here the Chinese issues a smack right between the eyes or more properly a severe kick in the nads; it is tantamount to a very public vote of no confidence in the Shins. Only one way this can end now.

Aeroplane.

West bound.

Dubai or Montenegro.

[Brevity]

Rice scheme burns out. Tablet maker bankrupt. First time car buyers not getting their rebates. That's 0/3 for the Shin populist promises! Well done!

No kidding.

I was a just looking back on some of the things Thaksin S did in his reign as PM. Apart from financially raping the country, he actually declared that he was going to make Thailand drug-free in only a 6-month period. I don't imagine that any country could rid itself of all illegal drugs in any length of time. Now Yingluck decides she can sell rice profitably or even at a break even price when she pays quite a bit over market value for it. What is with these Shinawatras? Are they actually such delusional megalomaniacs that they think the basics of economics and human nature don't apply to them? I am waiting for Yingluck to declare that Thailand will be changing gravity soon. Surely the laws of physics don't apply for the Shinawatras.

[fabphil]

Looks like Yingluk might be joining her brother over the rice scheme....to much scheming even the chinese woke up to this one

[gemini81]

Rice scheme burns out. Tablet maker bankrupt. First time car buyers not getting their rebates. That's 0/3 for the Shin populist promises! Well done!

No kidding.

I was a just looking back on some of the things Thaksin S did in his reign as PM. Apart from financially raping the country, he actually declared that he was going to make Thailand drug-free in only a 6-month period. I don't imagine that any country could rid itself of all illegal drugs in any length of time. Now Yingluck decides she can sell rice profitably or even at a break even price when she pays quite a bit over market value for it. What is with these Shinawatras? Are they actually such delusional megalomaniacs that they think the basics of economics and human nature don't apply to them? I am waiting for Yingluck to declare that Thailand will be changing gravity soon. Surely the laws of physics don't apply for the Shinawatras.

Oh it applies to them, their future is bleak when the time comes they reap what they sow; its already started. As their demise takes effect, Thailand should start to heal and recover.

[iancnx]

The 2 things are completely separate, one the rice pledging ( I don't support, never have), two, the commercial transaction to sell rice to China. Any sane person would support that...it gets the farmers paid and reduces the mountain, albeit at a loss. That transaction has been derailed by Suthep . Tragic for everyone, especially the farmers. I'm not surprised the Chinese got cold feet...but there is no reason why the sale should not proceed. In fact, it's in everyone's best interests that it does so ( apart from a few obsessions who see something corrupt in a straightforward, transparent transaction). Mystifying

I wonder if the business savvy Chinese popped over to inspect the goods? You try to separate this into two issues, where they are one. Rotting rice is directly related to the absurd shortcomings of the pledging scheme..... Now I hear you say.... Who said anything about rotten rice...... Lol

[Melyn]

The 2 things are completely separate, one the rice pledging ( I don't support, never have), two, the commercial transaction to sell rice to China. Any sane person would support that...it gets the farmers paid and reduces the mountain, albeit at a loss. That transaction has been derailed by Suthep . Tragic for everyone, especially the farmers. I'm not surprised the Chinese got cold feet...but there is no reason why the sale should not proceed. In fact, it's in everyone's best interests that it does so ( apart from a few obsessions who see something corrupt in a straightforward, transparent transaction). Mystifying

Where you are wrong is in the fact that is was a simple transparent transaction. In China, corruption is a capital offence. Perhaps the allegations that the G2G deal never actually existed are true. From the actions of the buyer, why would any threat of investigation be cause for them to withdraw from the deal unless the deal was actually tainted, or a sham?

If I am going to buy a car from a corrupt car dealer, certainly there are no criminal repercussions for me the buyer. If I thought it was a good deal, then I would proceed. But if this car dealer was publicly accused of fraud, then I would certainly think twice about purchasing my car from him. Caveat Emptor at work here. This can be an alternative explanation to the buyers actions.

However, in no imaginable scenario, can Suthep or anything coming even close to him be the cause for the cancellation of the transaction.

That's certainly a possibility, however if you look at the details the Dems unearthed last year and the DSI chose to ignore only for the NACC to pick it up, the companies involved were very murky. One of them turned out to belong to red shirt leader Arisman_'s wife who went on to set up an airline.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Suriya4]

Sell sell it in Tesco/BigC on a buy 1 free 1 promotion.

I'm sure all will be sold within 1 week.

Stop the scheme from now on, so Bangkok tax-payer don't have to subsidies poor Issan rice farmers anymore.

[spirit47]

The Chinese have another style to solve corruption, thats why the step back...

[steveromagnino]

It is hard to imagine a more idiotic way to run a country and waste 700 billion baht. To put in perspective, there are approximately 7m tax payers in Thailand, each is paying into this scheme on average approximately 100,000b, which is then mostly going to govt parties, and a few crumbs to the farmers*.

I like your first post, and agree with a lot of the second.

However, I'm sure there are significantly more than 7m tax payers in Thailand, and where does each paying 100,000 B into the rice scheme come from?

Is that the planned payback over 50 years by the pyschotics who initiated the scam?... you lost me at the end.

I don't have the exact numbers, maybe I can look them up, but I know them to be roughly right.

Total tax revenues collected are something like

1. personal income tax (ranges from 0% - 37%) - approximately 6m tax payers

2. corporate income tax (now up to 20%, move from 30% to 23% in 2012 to benefit corporations in 2011) - approximately <1m tax payers (I believe the correct number is <100,000)

3. petroleum tax

4. indirect tax (VAT, specific business tax, duty, excise, stamp duty) - almost everyone

Note that items 3 and 4 are spread equally across everyone, although obviously higher spending means higher taxes. Effectively, the people funding the budget are mostly in 1. and 2. From what I understand, VAT is somewhere in the realm of significant but not the main source of tax revenues; excise duties tend to be applied specifically for those factors e.g. alchohol/tobacco covers the healthcare and other costs relating to those industries....

Total raised annually is around 1.6 trillion baht (2012) of which the breakdown is:

Bangkok 1.04

Provincial 0.56 (most of which is corporate tax)

http://www.rd.go.th/publish/47377.0.html

So since there are only about 10% of the country actually paying income tax directly (and at the highest tax rate, up to almost double the tax rate of corporates) it would average out at something like 100,000b per person/entity on a back of envelope calculation.

Regarding G2G deals, apparently according to 96FM there are almost no true G2G deals, rather almost all the deals are to a company, who is representing a client; almost all the companies revealed to date are almost no name organisations that no one has heard of, and truth is coming out that there are related Thais involved with some of these companies.

Of all the rice sold outside G2G to actual private sector such as the Thai rice exporters and for local consumption, the price achieved is around 11,000b per ton (what was published according to 96FM), so the loss is guaranteed on every sale. The claim that it is a 'G2G deal' is simply a way to conceal the details of the sale for the 'sake of national secuity' or as a cynical person might say, to lie about the price achieved and amount delivered.

For a bank to take rice as the security, the question is simply whether it can be trusted that the rice actually exists, and at what value.

For a buyer, we have no evidence that there is an actual buyer in China other than a likely nominee of the government, the cynic in me believes the nominee is probably being delivered 2X more rice than what was ordered, to ensure that the price is acceptable, and then the same rice can be re-pledged again. Now that the spotlight is on Arisaman's wife, er, I mean that person, they probably would rather not risk it.

[saroq]

Guess they figured if they want crappy rice they can get it cheaper from uncle ben.......

In no way is Thai rice considered crappy in Asia. In Hong Kong and China it is preferred over all others for its quality.

[bigbamboo]

The Chinese are not backing out because of a probe.

Seriously, when have legalities or ethics ever stopped the Chinese from undertaking a transaction?

They are breaking the agreement because theyprobably wanted an additional reduction and didn't get it. Typical Chinese business practices.

Agreements with Chinese government and associated customers means nothing unless one has a big stick. The Thais were desperate for a deal and took the gamble and now they have been given a lesson in Chinese trade practices.

Again we have the wisdom of one who is privy to the whole details.

He's got a point though.

The scary thing for Thailand is if the Chinese won't do business with the Thai/Chinese run government here then who will?

[Frotting]

Rice scheme burns out. Tablet maker bankrupt. First time car buyers not getting their rebates. That's 0/3 for the Shin populist promises! Well done!

The spin meister is back ...surely not even you could blame YL for this. Blame here is squarely with Suthep. No other explanation warrants consideration.

Clearly a confused Thaksin lover. Suthep is to blame for the rice scheme? Wake up and smell the coffee.

[searcherkind666]

China Doing its part to overthrow a democratically elected government to install a Chinese style communist board of directors , the question is will the Thai people realize this before its to late .

[metisdead]

A post containing a foreign language has been removed. This is an English language forum, English is the only acceptable, except of course in the Thai language forum where Thai language is allowed.

[Muhendis]

Rice scheme burns out. Tablet maker bankrupt. First time car buyers not getting their rebates. That's 0/3 for the Shin populist promises! Well done!

The spin meister is back ...surely not even you could blame YL for this. Blame here is squarely with Suthep. No other explanation warrants consideration.

The blame lies firmly at the door of Thaksin, Yingluck and Pheu Thai for their stupidly flawed and corrupt populist policies that are falling down now around their ears . . . no other explanation warrants consideration.

EDIT: By the way, is this the cancellation of the Rice Deal with China that China had previously denied even existed? If so, this Govt is piling lie on top of lie at the moment, I'll await the announcement next from China stating that they have no clue what "Thailand" is talking about and to stop putting words in their mouths.

China seems to be more involved than ever. It is a tablet company in China that went bankrupt. There is definitely something fishy going on here.

[Thai at Heart]

But, to make some concession to the topic, China is at least as corrupt as Thailand. Perhaps they canceled the deal because they were concerned about what the probe would reveal about their purchasing procedures.

But in china, you can get a bullet in the head for corruption.

Big difference to thailand where there is even a law to stop people talking about you your corruption. Wouldn't want to defame anyone now would we.

You only get the bullet if you're too greedy for your status, or you fall out of favor with the government. Neither Thailand or China has a free press, but the restrictions are much more limiting in China.

Well.

This story is in the international press, so, I would cancel it better than get a bullet wouldn't you?