Kamnans slam PDRC

[Scamper]

Of all the political institutions, the position of kamnan - or village head - is a widely coveted one. Because with it comes almost assured permanence and a great deal of money and power, the granting of favours, and the authorization of all things that affect the community - from the granting of licences to the mobilization of votes. It is subject to widespread corruption. And as such, is an institution that seriously needs revamping. Thaksin's control of the country at the grass roots unquestionably forged a necessary path through these very powerful local politicians. At the moment they are upset with Suthep.

" ...announced its opposition to the proposed system of elected governors made by the PDRC. It said the move would make the role of village headman and kamnan or sub-district chief redundant. "

Precisely.

[LuckyLew]

It said the move would make the role of village headman and kamnan or sub-district chief redundant

Probably means their kickbacks and commissions are in jeopardy. Why on earth do you need these hangers on anyway?

Thailand has many hangers-on. The Thai system evolves around hangers-on and then their hangers-on. There is no independent in Thailand. Everyone is a hanger-on.

Now you just HANG-ON a minute ... what are you saying? are you sure?

[ESDinBKK]

In a truely democratic country the provincial and village leaders are electedd. This is the way it should be in Thailand, Kamnans and village leaders by appointment should be done away with and they should all be elected ... wait that would be democratic

.......

I read somewhere that these folks are appointed for life. Maybe someone knows if that is fact or fiction.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[diehard60]

understood... here my wife actually goes to a poll site and ticks the box of her choice..and places the ballot in the box etc.so it is pretty clear that follows some sort of expected electoral process and has been that way since '03... since we've been married but i can't speak for other regions or other practices...nothing of course here is consistent...but the point I was making is that even these relatively "grass roots" individuals are tired of Suthep inserting himself everywhere... the delay and distract and attempt to confuse tactic ( my opinion) by trying to stir every possible pot... maybe starting to backfire on him a bit... I think people are weary of the name Suthep now...

It has been that way for atleast 22 years that I know of. The only new thing is the ABT.

[diehard60]

The people are just now understanding what Suthep is doing to this country.

Kamnans are part of the problem Why Suthep has to hold his protests, and why the farmers are in trouble, as the kamnans are the ones that are paid influenced to assure that the people of their village votes populism PTP .

I dont know how long you have been in Thailand or for that matter if you are in Thailand, but it aint that way where i am.

[Emptyset]

hmmmm .... opposing electing governors ..... instead of the Govt appointing them .... hmmmmm .... now who is opposing elections/democracy?

I wonder if the BBC will notice this.

Kamnan, not governors. And they obviously haven't realized that Suthep has already backed down on the elected Kamnan idea after an outcry and promised to give appointed Kamnan's even more prestige. There was a good BKK Post article about it a while back. That's the problem with 'reform' in general and why it'll be a slow process whoever undertakes it. Most people agree with reforms that PDRC vaguely laid out except those in the areas it'll affect. And when they come to do it in practice, they'll realize they need the support of kamnan/police/teachers/doctors/bureaucrats/generals, etc.

If you recall, PT tried to re-introduce fixed terms and elections for kamnan & village heads in 2012, but shelved it after they started protesting. Good article on the topic here: http://www.prachatai.com/english/node/3426

Edit: Whoops, apologies rogerdee, I replied before I'd bothered to even read the article. Yes, it does seem to be elected governors they're concerned about. I'm sure Jonathan Head will have taken note although I'm not sure how important this is in the scheme of things. Elected governors is one of the few realistic and good PDRC proposals lol.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Emptyset

[Emptyset]

I am seriously wondering if there is anyone on here who is still sensible and clear minded? It seems everyone is in either a red or yellow(ish) sided camp! Are you all blind? Thailand has massive issues, on that we are all agreed.However to close-mindedly defend any one side is complete idiocy! PTP and the reds have the rice scam and blatant corruption they are by their own admission (Thaksin says....) led by a corrupt criminal living abroad and ruling through his sister! The other side have their own issues with corruption as well as many other capital offences in Thailand. On top of this they gave up on democracy and refused to vote, making themselves a mere sideline in the political theatre. The PDRC want an UNELECTED commitee (sounds a lot like communism to me) to REFORM politics. We all need reform, I agree. What reforms will you make Mr. Suthep? Reply "mmm... we have not thought about that yet"!

Both sides are flawed, both have major issues. In a perfect world no one would ever vote for any of these cowboys! I would love to see people on here who are able to accept that the rural poor have been shat on for years. They may not pay taxes, if they did they would probably be dead through lack of food. Whilst greatly contributing to the GDP they are paid peanuts and work themselves into the ground just to be able to eat. I would also love to see the red side admit that PTP are corrupt, the rice scheme was a scam and failure of major proportions! That the country is being ruled by proxy. That most votes are bought or coerced in the north. Its a fact, If we as foreigners with supposed well established democracies cannot act impartial and rational, how do we expect Thailand whose democracy is less than 100 years old to do the same!

I haven't got the answers to the current crisis, however I at least can see points from both sides of the fence, and do not have to resort to name calling, or blatant ignorism when posting. Rant over, let the colour blinded abuse begin!

Some good points. Don't agree with this though: 'That most votes are bought or coerced in the north.' Or at least if they are bought and coerced in the north, they're also equally bought and coerced in the south.

[JesseFrank]

The people are just now understanding what Suthep is doing to this country.

Kamnans are part of the problem Why Suthep has to hold his protests, and why the farmers are in trouble, as the kamnans are the ones that are paid influenced to assure that the people of their village votes populism PTP .

I dont know how long you have been in Thailand or for that matter if you are in Thailand, but it aint that way where i am.

Well I've been Thailand long enough to have seen the kamnams drive their new pick up truck after Thaksin gave every village 1 million Baht, as he had promised for his first election.

[SamMunich]

Quoted:

It said the move would make the role of village headman and kamnan or sub-district chief redundant

Probably means their kickbacks and commissions are in jeopardy. Why on earth do you need these hangers on anyway?

________________________________________________________________

If they are redundant,- great. Fire them and save taxes wasted on their salaries.

Obviously they were set up by the Ministry of Interior, who ordered them to "protest". We are all shocked into awe...

[Mosha]

It said the move would make the role of village headman and kamnan or sub-district chief redundant

Probably means their kickbacks and commissions are in jeopardy. Why on earth do you need these hangers on anyway?

They actually fork out more to the voters than is paid out in a general election. That just screams at you the kickbacks must be big. Wife's ex BIL was one and when the folks on the neighbouring plot killed 150 of our rubber trees, he turned a blind eye to my wife's complaints. She went to the police, and he was fuming, he gad to pay back the incentive.

[Emptyset]

In a truely democratic country the provincial and village leaders are electedd. This is the way it should be in Thailand, Kamnans and village leaders by appointment should be done away with and they should all be elected ... wait that would be democratic

.......

I read somewhere that these folks are appointed for life. Maybe someone knows if that is fact or fiction.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

They were elected but only once. As the law stands, they can remain in power until retirement at 60. The government tried to change this in 2012 by reintroducing elections and 5 year terms. But in a sop to already elected kamnan, they inserted a clause that meant those who are in power now get to keep their posts until 60. They couldn't even accept this though and with their protests, the govt shelved the plan in order to keep them on side. Status quo maintained.

As I say, that's why reform attempts often fail. The vested interests resist, and you realize you need the support of those vested interests in order to run the country...

[ShannonT]

heads of village are notorious for being corrupt and letting all kinds of weird and odd shit slide, who cares about their opinion?

Suthep calls himself Kamnan Suthep and everyone addresses him as Kamnan, dear Kamnan.

Kamnan = head of village

[mightyatom]

It said the move would make the role of village headman and kamnan or sub-district chief redundant

Probably means their kickbacks and commissions are in jeopardy. Why on earth do you need these hangers on anyway?

Because they can be bought to intimidate 'their flock' to vote a certain way.

[jackptoke]

heads of village are notorious for being corrupt and letting all kinds of weird and odd shit slide, who cares about their opinion?

If their opinions don't count, you, farang's opinion is also meaningless.

[Mosha]

heads of village are notorious for being corrupt and letting all kinds of weird and odd shit slide, who cares about their opinion?

Suthep calls himself Kamnan Suthep and everyone addresses him as Kamnan, dear Kamnan.

Kamnan = head of village

Actually in the sticks he/she is the head of a group of about 5 villages, with the Puy Yais in the other 4 reporting to him/her

[DirtFarmer]

understood... here my wife actually goes to a poll site and ticks the box of her choice..and places the ballot in the box etc.so it is pretty clear that follows some sort of expected electoral process and has been that way since '03... since we've been married but i can't speak for other regions or other practices...nothing of course here is consistent...but the point I was making is that even these relatively "grass roots" individuals are tired of Suthep inserting himself everywhere... the delay and distract and attempt to confuse tactic ( my opinion) by trying to stir every possible pot... maybe starting to backfire on him a bit... I think people are weary of the name Suthep now...

Well DirtBox Farmer.. obviously you live out in the sticks... try living in Bangkok and you will realise that Suthep is a Hero... it was the hard working tax-payers that lost all that hard earned cash that Yinluck and her devils stole from Thailand.. people out in the sticks never pay tax... ask your wife to show you all her tax payment certificates... none.. what right do non-taxpayers have to go to a poll site and tick the box...none.. shame on you...

Not gonna even reply to your slam but I lived in Bangkok for 3 years and still have many friends their who do not think Suthep is a hero... he is as corrupt as any of them are.. a bit of history study and you would see that before the pomposity of your verbosity exposed the arrogance of your ignorance. I live about 200k out of BKK and though rural it is not the sticks.. and people here pay taxes and have tax receipts...and are on Jungwat rosters and the lot... you clearly have shamed yourself not me,,, but never mind... your extremely narrow knowledge base reveals itself in your pathetic effort at knowing anything about anybody but yourself and your obvious shortcomings... stay in the bubble you so happily dwell in and keep following the other sheep...good luck to you Mr. Bakseeda

[ikurauni]

I can understand that some people are frustrated by how the protest has been done.

Personally, I want PDRC to stop doing the parties on the street.

Blocking the street is creating heavier traffic jams.

It is time to change their strategy bring down the government.

However, they all should talk to end this conflict.

But Yingluck does not want to give up her position despite of all the screw ups she has done.

The protest will continue.

[DirtFarmer]

I am seriously wondering if there is anyone on here who is still sensible and clear minded? It seems everyone is in either a red or yellow(ish) sided camp! Are you all blind? Thailand has massive issues, on that we are all agreed.However to close-mindedly defend any one side is complete idiocy! PTP and the reds have the rice scam and blatant corruption they are by their own admission (Thaksin says....) led by a corrupt criminal living abroad and ruling through his sister! The other side have their own issues with corruption as well as many other capital offences in Thailand. On top of this they gave up on democracy and refused to vote, making themselves a mere sideline in the political theatre. The PDRC want an UNELECTED commitee (sounds a lot like communism to me) to REFORM politics. We all need reform, I agree. What reforms will you make Mr. Suthep? Reply "mmm... we have not thought about that yet"!

Both sides are flawed, both have major issues. In a perfect world no one would ever vote for any of these cowboys! I would love to see people on here who are able to accept that the rural poor have been shat on for years. They may not pay taxes, if they did they would probably be dead through lack of food. Whilst greatly contributing to the GDP they are paid peanuts and work themselves into the ground just to be able to eat. I would also love to see the red side admit that PTP are corrupt, the rice scheme was a scam and failure of major proportions! That the country is being ruled by proxy. That most votes are bought or coerced in the north. Its a fact, If we as foreigners with supposed well established democracies cannot act impartial and rational, how do we expect Thailand whose democracy is less than 100 years old to do the same!

I haven't got the answers to the current crisis, however I at least can see points from both sides of the fence, and do not have to resort to name calling, or blatant ignorism when posting. Rant over, let the colour blinded abuse begin!

I have to disagree with some points in your post, I think PTP heart was in the right place when they introduced the rice program it was meant to help the farmer, It did not work as it was envisioned and needs a major overhaul of the faulty parts of the program, the amount of max. money that can be borrowed should be based on the international market price.

The government place subsidies on the rice price on the international level. the rice middleman needs to be cut out, as in our village a rice storage facility is being built by private owners who will purchase the rice from the farmers for resale over seas,Co-operative purchase, storage, and milling to be done at the village level! the should subsidize the rice IE: enact a subsidies on the rice it the international price drops to low. only then to protect Thailand rice industry!

Cheers

Another factor in this whole scheme was the fallout when Vietnam and India increased their rice production and lowered their prices and took away Thailand's number one exporter status.. there was no way for anyone to predict that...though it has made this country look at the amount of land it has available to farm and the amount of land it actually farms.. I believe that VN now hast 80 percent of it's available farmland irrigated (infrastructure set and functioning) as compared to Thailand's 20% Where i am there are rice crops year around (3-5) but the Northeast only one and maybe two crops a year... inevitable that the structure of the scheme was gonna take a hit... I also agree that it needs to become more of a free market micro economy with supply commensurate with demand... hard to juggle that with government fixed price subsidy and international market price dropping...

[Dogmatix]

That is funny. A group of kamnans protest against the idea of elected provincial governors because they fear that would diminish their power (and ability to skim off local budgets). I remember kamnans protesting vociferously when the position changed from being a lifetime appointment made by the Interior Ministry to being elected for 5 year terms. They are hardly known for their democratic tendencies. Since they don't have the right to sit on the elected Tambon Administrative Organisation (TAO) ex officio there seems to be no longer any point in electing kamnans and puyai baan at all. They are an anachronism from the day of Rama V. The Interior Ministry has been loath to abolish the position because they feel kamnans who, despite now being elected, are expected to report to the appointed district officer and be under the discipline of the ministry gives them more control.

Having said all that, they are probably right. Since there is no longer any point in having them, moving to elected provincial governors would probably eliminate this pointless position and save money. Bring it on.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Dogmatix

[pisico]

heads of village are notorious for being corrupt and letting all kinds of weird and odd shit slide, who cares about their opinion?

That is how Suthep trained to ultimately become Minister of Agriculture and finally, appointed Deputy prime Minister.

Failed miserably in the latter2 appointed positions. Suthep is yet to be elected.

He is the self appointed boss for the PDRC. How cozy!!!

Reminds me of the traditional Famiglie of New York during the years of the Bonano's and Lucky Luciano.

[Bluespunk]

heads of village are notorious for being corrupt and letting all kinds of weird and odd shit slide, who cares about their opinion?

If their opinions don't count, you, farang's opinion is also meaningless.

If you don't agree with bkkgooner [and I don't] then why not criticise them on the basis of their argument, not the fact they may not be Thai.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Bluespunk

[pisico]

It said the move would make the role of village headman and kamnan or sub-district chief redundant

Probably means their kickbacks and commissions are in jeopardy. Why on earth do you need these hangers on anyway?

Because they can be bought to intimidate 'their flock' to vote a certain way.

This is the cradle of patronage and corruption. It is the systemic condition that has attained crisis level since before 2006.

A dysfunctional country with a feudalistic structure of governance cannot endure the new requirements of globalization and/or being part of regional economic community. Corruption, vote buying (and selling of it) have been the norm in Thailand since elections became a cosmetic character of the country.

All the polls of the past 5 years are consistent in reporting that 65-70 % of Thais are OK with corruption as long as it benefits them.

No PDRC self appointed ruling form of government will reform the venal DNA of the country. They are for the most part the Bangkokian elite that truly believe the farmers and peasants are not qualified to make political decisions; hence, their self appointment .

They were successful in their appeal at first because Thais, (in their traditional sense of respect of superior knowledge and authority) attach prestige to the titles of Doctor, Professor, Academic, etc. A superficial way to gauge character. So, a title is not a guarantee of probity much less integrity of character if we think of Assad (a doctor) the president of Syria and Dr. Menguele. .

Indeed, in the archaic system in place in Thailand, Kanman are "compensated" to direct voting in their villages one way or the other. Vote buying, and selling of it, are 2 aspects of this country that makes true Democracy difficult to get a firm foothold in Thailand.

When Thais themselves refuse individually to take part in corruption, then a new norm of behaviour will be born in Thailand.

I am not holding my breath.

[ScouseTommy]

I am seriously wondering if there is anyone on here who is still sensible and clear minded? It seems everyone is in either a red or yellow(ish) sided camp! Are you all blind? Thailand has massive issues, on that we are all agreed.However to close-mindedly defend any one side is complete idiocy! PTP and the reds have the rice scam and blatant corruption they are by their own admission (Thaksin says....) led by a corrupt criminal living abroad and ruling through his sister! The other side have their own issues with corruption as well as many other capital offences in Thailand. On top of this they gave up on democracy and refused to vote, making themselves a mere sideline in the political theatre. The PDRC want an UNELECTED commitee (sounds a lot like communism to me) to REFORM politics. We all need reform, I agree. What reforms will you make Mr. Suthep? Reply "mmm... we have not thought about that yet"!

Both sides are flawed, both have major issues. In a perfect world no one would ever vote for any of these cowboys! I would love to see people on here who are able to accept that the rural poor have been shat on for years. They may not pay taxes, if they did they would probably be dead through lack of food. Whilst greatly contributing to the GDP they are paid peanuts and work themselves into the ground just to be able to eat. I would also love to see the red side admit that PTP are corrupt, the rice scheme was a scam and failure of major proportions! That the country is being ruled by proxy. That most votes are bought or coerced in the north. Its a fact, If we as foreigners with supposed well established democracies cannot act impartial and rational, how do we expect Thailand whose democracy is less than 100 years old to do the same!

I haven't got the answers to the current crisis, however I at least can see points from both sides of the fence, and do not have to resort to name calling, or blatant ignorism when posting. Rant over, let the colour blinded abuse begin!

Some good points. Don't agree with this though: 'That most votes are bought or coerced in the north.' Or at least if they are bought and coerced in the north, they're also equally bought and coerced in the south.

I don't disagree, it's just nice that people can admit there are problems with all of the various colours/sides

[icommunity]

Mmmmm, the dem's PDRC/PCAD want to change the appointed governors to elected one. Is this a violation of section 68? Trying to overthrow the present system? Oh, lol, if it is not changing the appointed senators to elected one, it should be ok.

[Bluespunk]

Mmmmm, the dem's PDRC/PCAD want to change the appointed governors to elected one. Is this a violation of section 68? Trying to overthrow the present system? Oh, lol, if it is not changing the appointed senators to elected one, it should be ok.

pdrc are not the dems.

dems are not pdrc.

[icommunity]

Mmmmm, the dem's PDRC/PCAD want to change the appointed governors to elected one. Is this a violation of section 68? Trying to overthrow the present system? Oh, lol, if it is not changing the appointed senators to elected one, it should be ok.

pdrc are not the dems.

dems are not pdrc.

pdrc/pcad is the dem's.

[Bluespunk]

Mmmmm, the dem's PDRC/PCAD want to change the appointed governors to elected one. Is this a violation of section 68? Trying to overthrow the present system? Oh, lol, if it is not changing the appointed senators to elected one, it should be ok.

pdrc are not the dems.

dems are not pdrc.

pdrc/pcad is the dem's.

nope.

[icommunity]

Mmmmm, the dem's PDRC/PCAD want to change the appointed governors to elected one. Is this a violation of section 68? Trying to overthrow the present system? Oh, lol, if it is not changing the appointed senators to elected one, it should be ok.

pdrc are not the dems.

dems are not pdrc.

pdrc/pcad is the dem's.

nope.

so, you mean, the dem is pdrs's? May be that was why the dem's MPs had to resign en masses to join their street protests.

[Bluespunk]

pdrc are not the dems.

dems are not pdrc.

pdrc/pcad is the dem's.

nope.

so, you mean, the dem is pdrs's? May be that was why the dem's MPs had to resign en masses to join their street protests.

They resigned.

They left.

They formed a new different grouping [one i do not like as it happens]

Different being the key word.

They are not the same.

[pisico]

Mmmmm, the dem's PDRC/PCAD want to change the appointed governors to elected one. Is this a violation of section 68? Trying to overthrow the present system? Oh, lol, if it is not changing the appointed senators to elected one, it should be ok.

pdrc are not the dems.

dems are not pdrc.

pdrc/pcad is the dem's.

nope.

Same same but different name. Political Semantics !

Denial is not a river in Africa