Searched By US Customs, Including Laptop & Camera

[OMGImInPattaya]

When I returned to the UK last week for the first time in 7 years, my status as a single male, living and travelling in South East Asia ensured that I was singled out for extra screening.

Pedophile?, Drug-runner?

No, the customs guy explained, as he swabbed my laptop and bag, and deposited the swab into some electronic device, he was checking for traces of Semtex !!

Simon

Let me guess, and the man in the flowering robe and turban named Mohammed behind you was waved on through?

[JLCrab]

why stop with the US Constitution -- why not claim it is a violation of the UN Declaration of Human Rights 1928 (from UN website):

12. No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

PLAIN LANGUAGE VERSION:
You have the right to ask to be protected if someone tries to harm your good name, enter your house, open your letters, or bother you or your family without a good reason.

Edited February 16, 2014 by JLCrab

[OMGImInPattaya]

The TSA in all of these years since 9/11 have never caught or stopped a would-be terrorist or bomber. 13 years.

This begs the question: "Has their mere presence stopped anyone from trying?" I think probably.

They have found kiddie porn, drug smugglers, 11 firearms and apprehended illegal aliens and people with false travel documents. No one was linked to terrorists.

There have been a couple of incidents of passengers apprehending someone such as the Shoe Bomber, but he was inbound, in flight.

We haven't lost another plane since 9/11. I don't mind them searching for bombs and guns before I get on an airplane, but I think searching my computer is patently a violation of the US constitution. And they can't tell me I'm not on US soil being dealt with by US law enforcement just because I haven't cleared customs.

Well "they" may not be able but that's the way its been decided by the courts, including some federal appellate courts. So it's basically settled law. Even US citizens don't have freedom from involuntary search and seizure at a border checkpoint (even though it's on US soil). In fact, its even been ruled that this border enforcement zone extends up beyond the actual checkpoint facility (airport, vehicle border crossing) to a zone up to 50 miles from the border.

[wym]

[ukrules]

You weren't paying attention: TrueCrypt has TWO password levels. You store the things you WANT people searching you to find at one level, and, after you let them pressure and threaten you, you "reluctantly surrender" that password. However, there's a second level of encryption in the file--which is completely invisible--which is only able to be opened with the second password, which you never give them. The file looks just like one encrypted file, it's just which password you enter that determines which level of the file will be opened.

Of course, governments know about this by now (TrueCrypt is free and open source, and it's no secret that it has this hidden encryption level capability), and if they REALLY suspect you of something (that is, have other evidence to incriminate you beyond just your appearance), they'll confiscate your device no matter whether you give them a password or not. But they still won't be able to get into the second encryption level, if you have one. TrueCrypt is really, really good at what it does.[/qudumb]

Yeah...these guys are dumb but not that dumb.

Its pretty easy to see that the size of the decrypted data doesn't match the size of the folder/drive.

Haha...you don't know much about TrueCrypt, do you? Go to their website, read and learn.

And what, you dont think TSA knows how to read a website? Are you some Snowden wannabe posting from a computer in mommy's basement..have you ever traveled internationally...do you even have a passport? Yeah its all fine and good to drone on about the glories of TC (and I agree, it, and PGP, are the best encryption programs out there) but we're talking about the distopian world of US border security and not some Jeffersonian ideal of perfect liberty here.

I've know about and used TC for over 10 years. On my clean traveling computer I don't store any sensitive data so I've no need for encryption. Also, just having the program on a traveling device that is selected for enhanced screening will arouse suspicion. I'm not going to fight them, especially when I've nothing to hide. When I travel internationally, I want to get in and out of border checks points quickly and with a minimum of fuss. Using TC on a traveling device would defeat that objective.

Unless you really know what you're doing it's often trivial to recover TrueCrypt keys from a windows computer.

They're inside the swap file and if you've ever hibernated it it's all sitting there on the drive just waiting to be recovered at the press of a button.

I believe full disk encryption including the OS is the only real secure way.

[NeverSure]

The TSA in all of these years since 9/11 have never caught or stopped a would-be terrorist or bomber. 13 years.

This begs the question: "Has their mere presence stopped anyone from trying?" I think probably.

They have found kiddie porn, drug smugglers, 11 firearms and apprehended illegal aliens and people with false travel documents. No one was linked to terrorists.

There have been a couple of incidents of passengers apprehending someone such as the Shoe Bomber, but he was inbound, in flight.

We haven't lost another plane since 9/11. I don't mind them searching for bombs and guns before I get on an airplane, but I think searching my computer is patently a violation of the US constitution. And they can't tell me I'm not on US soil being dealt with by US law enforcement just because I haven't cleared customs.

Well "they" may not be able but that's the way its been decided by the courts, including some federal appellate courts. So it's basically settled law. Even US citizens don't have freedom from involuntary search and seizure at a border checkpoint (even though it's on US soil). In fact, its even been ruled that this border enforcement zone extends up beyond the actual checkpoint facility (airport, vehicle border crossing) to a zone up to 50 miles from the border.

Sometimes courts get it wrong, and here I think it's obvious they did.

US Constitution, 4th Amendment:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Until this, and for more than 200 years, this was ruled to mean that you couldn't be searched unless they had "probable cause" (a reasonable belief based on facts they could articulate to a judge to get a warrant.) If in an "emergency" they needed to search you or any of the things identified in the 4th Amendment, they had to later go to a judge and articulate their probable cause and get a warrant.

If they wanted to search your computer, they had to have probable cause to believe you had illegal things on it, and they had to be able to, with oath and affirmation, describe exactly why they thought that, and what it was they thought you had.

[chiang mai]

A returning Brit recently recanted his story of being stopped and searched and complained bitterly that UK Customs had seized his laptop etc and how they had no right blah blah, all because he made a smart arsed remark, when asked where he'd been and why he replied Thailand, having sex with young girls! He felt certain that the establishment had no right to do such things and he argued intently, an English teacher out of Pattaya returning home to Manchester as I recall. Darwinism at work!

So, it's not a peculiarly US trait that makes these events happen, law enforcement pretty much globally is on the lookout, quite right too I reckon.

[OMGImInPattaya]

The TSA in all of these years since 9/11 have never caught or stopped a would-be terrorist or bomber. 13 years.

This begs the question: "Has their mere presence stopped anyone from trying?" I think probably.

They have found kiddie porn, drug smugglers, 11 firearms and apprehended illegal aliens and people with false travel documents. No one was linked to terrorists.

There have been a couple of incidents of passengers apprehending someone such as the Shoe Bomber, but he was inbound, in flight.

We haven't lost another plane since 9/11. I don't mind them searching for bombs and guns before I get on an airplane, but I think searching my computer is patently a violation of the US constitution. And they can't tell me I'm not on US soil being dealt with by US law enforcement just because I haven't cleared customs.

Well "they" may not be able but that's the way its been decided by the courts, including some federal appellate courts. So it's basically settled law. Even US citizens don't have freedom from involuntary search and seizure at a border checkpoint (even though it's on US soil). In fact, its even been ruled that this border enforcement zone extends up beyond the actual checkpoint facility (airport, vehicle border crossing) to a zone up to 50 miles from the border.

Sometimes courts get it wrong, and here I think it's obvious they did.

US Constitution, 4th Amendment:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Until this, and for more than 200 years, this was ruled to mean that you couldn't be searched unless they had "probable cause" (a reasonable belief based on facts they could articulate to a judge to get a warrant.) If in an "emergency" they needed to search you or any of the things identified in the 4th Amendment, they had to later go to a judge and articulate their probable cause and get a warrant.

If they wanted to search your computer, they had to have probable cause to believe you had illegal things on it, and they had to be able to, with oath and affirmation, describe exactly why they thought that, and what it was they thought you had.

Not saying I agree...just that's what the courts have held and so it's "the law."

As to your other comments, yes, once inside the border one still has all the protections accorded by the 4th Amendment.

[JLCrab]

ACLU Challenges Suspicionless Laptop Border Search Policy

https://www.aclu.org/free-speech-technology-and-liberty/abidor-v-napolitano

Court Rules No Suspicion Needed for Laptop Searches at Border (31 DEC 2013)

https://www.aclu.org/national-security-technology-and-liberty/court-rules-no-suspicion-needed-laptop-searches-border

[wym]

[Somtamnication]

Ah, yes, the old search without a warrant thingy going on over there. The constitution in shambles. I made the right decision canceling my US citizenship 13 years ago.

[taqila]

good subject

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

[CaptHaddock]

I note the prevalence of faith-based information security here, for example, using TrueCrypt (whose developer has always refused to identify himself publicly), cloud storage (where you will never know who has had access to your files), and, best of all, encryption for which users have a touching confidence despite what we now know that the NSA and, probably, other agencies have hooks into such software. My point is that you cannot know if any of this is secure. Nor can you assume that because you have been using such resources for x number of years without having personally been hacked or had the govt seize your computer, that the methods themselves are effective since even without any attempt to protect your data at all the chance of being hacked or being seized are very low.

[CaptHaddock]

In favor of Thailand, that beacon of human rights?

Ah, yes, the old search without a warrant thingy going on over there. The constitution in shambles. I made the right decision canceling my US citizenship 13 years ago.

[JimMagee]

More times than not, I experience the same treatment when returning to the US via Los Angeles. I get really annoyed by it since I have someone outside waiting to meet me and they will not allow you to use a cell phone to call them. The last time, I was delayed 2 hours waiting my turn to be searched and interrogated. My brother was driving around and around LAX wondering <deleted>. Fortunately, I called him when I landed, and before getting to immigration, to let him know I made it to the airport.

Since they have never found any reason to stop me, I would think they would make a note of it in their computer to no longer "randomly" search me. I even tell the officer that I have been "randomly" selected several times, but they don't care, they are just grunts going through the motions. I asked if I'm on a watch list, and they will not confirm or deny. Anyway, it is not a pleasant way to be welcomed home, to be sure.

Sure this type of action predates Obama, but slowly, the civil rights that Americans have enjoyed in the past are slowly being peeled away, and Obama has accelerated the process.

[sam sen]

dont be so touchy. if you have nothing to hide and as long as the staff are polite and you are not delayed too long what's the problem? they are just doing their job.

if they do manage to catch paedophiles isn't the safety and protection of vulnerable children worth a a small inconvenience on your behalf?

[Kayahammer]

So now you decided to warn pedos and smugglers.

[Brevity]

I am not really surprised to hear this. Didn't the Patriot Act basically remove all people's rights to fair legal process and requirement by law enforcers of probable cause before searches, custody, etc. in the USA?

[AdamRich]

A couple of months ago in the US court system, a judge ruled that the search of the contents contained in electronics is legal.

[djvolak]

My first trip to Thailand in 2007 they did the same at LA when I got back to the US. One guy pulled me aside and told me to get my camera out. I handed him the camera. He sees no photos and asks where are your photos? On the computer already. Ok give me yur computer. Macbook Pro 2006 model. He's a PC guy. He starts opening every file on my desktop. I take lots of pictures but the only think on that computer he might have found that had naked women was of my wife and she was 40 so I was really not worried. He looks through almost every file I think he stopped at the one before the one that had a few naked shots of my wife. He tells me I am lucky the other guy is not there as he knows Macs and he would have found my stash. I was like hey you opened everything there and there really is not any kid stuff or even any regular porn for that matter. I showed him how to check for videos on a mac and he flipped through the movie file I had on there. They expect if your 40 and over and you go to Thailand or anywhere in Asia for that matter you are there to have sex with kids. When I first met my wife online she told me she was 28 and I told her she was too young. I was 47 I think. I have not had anyone do that again but it may start over now as I have a new passport I just got this trip. Have to see. I only mid if I have a flight coming up that I will miss while they look. I am glad they are trying to do something but they do not have to be rude about it. My buddy knows Macs and he'd find your stash? What kind of shit is that? And then tell me have a nice day after you don't find anything? Yes sir you can go F--- Yourself Mr Customs man at Los Angeles Airport.

[belg]

"printed handout which stated that US Customs has the right to not only examine electronic devices

buy to confiscate them"

+

"random' or if a person is a watch list"

buy to confiscate them ?

person is a watch list ?

are you sure you are an american ?

i smell a bad ghost writer story

Edited February 17, 2014 by belg

[LomSak27]

Well in the Op's defense it was heavy handed and nothing I have ever had by US immigration/customs in decades. Profiling ? Great idea, but what exactly were they profiling you for? a lot of suggestions but nothing but guess's

Jingthing is of course completely accurate. If you traveled say back in the 70's or 80's (backpacking) you likely had them pull you out and go over everything cause obviously you were a dope smuggler

It's really rather sad to hear the whining and nashing of teeth about profiling. So Obama is profiling you ... with the HSecurity clowns another president put in place .... gosh tell me it aint so ... wussies

[Tywais]

I posted this document in my other topic so will add it here also - A Guide For Travelers Carrying Digital Devices (pdf)

[kamahele]

Unfortunately, sometimes the innocent must be inconvenienced because of the acts of the guilty.I suppose I have been lucky to never have my bags searched when returning to America from Thailand with a passport full of stamps from Cambodia and The Philippines. I did have my bags searched many years ago in Sydney because I was talking to someone in line in Customs who was on the same tour as I was who was profiled. Of course sitting right on top of my clothes when my suitcase was opened was a rather large bag full of condoms and lubricant. The officer just smiled and said "here for Mardis Gras I see, have a good time"

[tartempion]

Two years back I crossed from Canada to USA by car somewhere around Cornwall for a short ride into the USA.

When I handed over my European passport to the guy at the booth (whatever his function/title might be) my passport got confiscated and I was ordered to enter their building. There I was treated as a terrorist, a police officer took office against a wall not taking his eyes off me for a split second whilst I had to deal with a lady immigration officer at her desk, the police officer was ready to shoot his gun on any false move I would make. After 15 minutes he was relieved and replaced by a similar looking female agent. The whole process took 30 minutes. Freindlyness was not part of the game. Needless to say I have no plans on returning visiting the USA.

[djvolak]

What would be really interesting to get a handle on is the profile used by CBE for selecting persons for enhanced screenings for either drugs or child pornography. We all assume we know the "typical" suspect: Balding middle-aged male returning from an overseas trip, especially from know "hotspots" like SE Asia and central and south America (could provably add parts of Europe as well). Also, enforcement seems to vary by city as my friends tell me Honolulu and LAX are very tough entry points while my experience at SFO has always been a breeze. This is doubly so as I fit the profile to a tee and have multiple Cambodian visas in my passport. In 15 years of living in Thailand and going back and forth maybe a dozen times, I've only been selected for a cursory baggage inspection once and never for enhanced screening. Usually its just "welcome home sir" or the agent may ask what I'm doing in thailand and I answer honestly that I live there. A couple have mentioned their own trips to thailand or comment that it's a place they want to visit. Then they mark my customs form and I'm invariably waived on out of the arrivals hall and into the main terminal and back into America

90% of my returns are the same. They did give me a bit of trouble about the cigars a few times so I stopped bringing them. They gave em back three times but the last time at Houston on Christmas Day he told me, You sure they are Cubans? I said well I got em in Cambodia I guess they could be fake. He said yes I think they are Dominicans. Do not bring any more Cubans through this airport and Merry Christmas sir. I told him yep probably Dominicans then, and you all have a Merry Christmas too. Nice guys at Houston!

[smileydude]

A few years back a thai guy had the same search procedure done on him and they found he downloaded child pornography onto his ipad.

He got jail time for that.

The profiling is more on the country you come from our visited due to the notoriety but I'm sure they also do random searches. Those involved in law enforcement know well that profiling is an effective and necessary evil even though it seems racist. If we are clean we have nothing to worry except the inconvenience. My wife has her brand name handbag examined and marked every time we go to Europe to check for counterfeits. We are delayed by about 10 minutes each time. I tell her to change to some cheap stuff but she gives me the stink eye.

If our privacy needs to be invaded to catch these scum I'm all for it. I have 2 daughters and I think its about time something was seriously done to rid the earth of these abominations of mankind.

Edited February 17, 2014 by smileydude

[NHT]

Well well well.

It seems, the West finally starts to realise the real value of Thailand:

• Sex
• Pedophiles
• Scum
• Drugs

[OMGImInPattaya]

More times than not, I experience the same treatment when returning to the US via Los Angeles. I get really annoyed by it since I have someone outside waiting to meet me and they will not allow you to use a cell phone to call them. The last time, I was delayed 2 hours waiting my turn to be searched and interrogated. My brother was driving around and around LAX wondering <deleted>. Fortunately, I called him when I landed, and before getting to immigration, to let him know I made it to the airport.

Since they have never found any reason to stop me, I would think they would make a note of it in their computer to no longer "randomly" search me. I even tell the officer that I have been "randomly" selected several times, but they don't care, they are just grunts going through the motions. I asked if I'm on a watch list, and they will not confirm or deny. Anyway, it is not a pleasant way to be welcomed home, to be sure.

Sure this type of action predates Obama, but slowly, the civil rights that Americans have enjoyed in the past are slowly being peeled away, and Obama has accelerated the process.

Oh please give it a rest with the Obama bashing! Everyone's primary human right to stay alive and seek medical care because they can now purchase affordable medical insurance (and not have to rely on charity care) and not die in the streets or be bankrupted by care costs has been enhanced and secured by this man.

With you're attitude, maybe TSA is onto something searching you every time. Like I said, basically I never get the treatment.

[simple1]

From Wikipedia:

In 2012 the United States 11th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that a John Doe TrueCrypt user could not be compelled to decrypt several of his hard drives.^[55] The court's ruling noted that FBI forensic examiners were unable to get past TrueCrypt's encryption (and therefore were unable to access the data) unless Doe either decrypted the drives or gave the FBI the password, and the court then ruled that Doe's Fifth Amendment right to remain silent legally prevented the Government from making him or her do so.^[56]