Dowry

[wolfmanjack]

i was wondering do Thai males give dowrys and if so i bet they dont give tousands on Bahts, why oh why do farangs fall for this, the best option is if ya want to live in Thailand dont get invloved with a lady who will fleece you (yeah they all do i know) but to live on your own and spend your money on a "bar-girl" once a week believe me you will have much variation and thousands of Bahts beter off lol !!

My thai brother in law paid 100,000 baht or I should say my MIL paid 100,000 baht for my brother in law to get married.

[JeffreyWitty]

OP,

RUN! Not walk. RUN away from this situation as fast as possible - you are nothing but an open wallet. Keep looking, there are plenty of woman that will compromise and love you for who you are - not the size of your checkbook.

[siddv]

Doesn't matter what any of us say here. You are going down again. Period!

[atyclb]

Points of view...

1. Long term expats who never married here

" What kind of idiot would buy his wife from greedy upcountry relatives

who should get jobs instead of selling their family members..."

2. Expats who paid sin sot and are living the Isan dream in an upcountry village

" I paid sin sot for my lovely wife and am the happiest man in the world. This

is a Thai custom, and if you want to be properly integrated into Thai culture

you must pay this. Anybody who would not consider paying is simply a

cheapskate......."

Hey wait a minute. I have a lovely half Thai three year old daughter. Does this mean I can sell her when she is marriageable age ? Hmmmm....

Yes of course you could assuming you are another thaivisa intellectual.

Heck, theres probably an expat that would give me a big sinsod for my uni grad doctoral virgin ass also.

[HughJass]

insert pic

[EyesWideOpen]

Points of view...

1. Long term expats who never married here

" What kind of idiot would buy his wife from greedy upcountry relatives

who should get jobs instead of selling their family members..."

2. Expats who paid sin sot and are living the Isan dream in an upcountry village

" I paid sin sot for my lovely wife and am the happiest man in the world. This

is a Thai custom, and if you want to be properly integrated into Thai culture

you must pay this. Anybody who would not consider paying is simply a

cheapskate......."

Hey wait a minute. I have a lovely half Thai three year old daughter. Does this mean I can sell her when she is marriageable age ? Hmmmm....

Yes of course you could assuming you are another thaivisa intellectual.

Heck, theres probably an expat that would give me a big sinsod for my uni grad doctoral virgin ass also.

Hahaha yeah selling your daughter seems a bit harsh. My plan is to send her to university in America, and end up with a good job. So hopefully she may buy a dinner or two for her Dad when he is doddering about.....

[ZAKY]

This is falang showing off because they feel superior of the currency value to usd or eur value x30/40 yo the thai baht.

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[visionchaser45]

If you aer all that concerned about the money, or the strength of your relationship, I would just count the number of times you slept with her for free, multiply that amount by 500 baht. You can pay that amount in both gold and cash. That way, you won't be losing anything if she decides to leave you because you will only have paid for what you have already taken.

[atyclb]

Points of view...

1. Long term expats who never married here

" What kind of idiot would buy his wife from greedy upcountry relatives

who should get jobs instead of selling their family members..."

2. Expats who paid sin sot and are living the Isan dream in an upcountry village

" I paid sin sot for my lovely wife and am the happiest man in the world. This

is a Thai custom, and if you want to be properly integrated into Thai culture

you must pay this. Anybody who would not consider paying is simply a

cheapskate......."

Hey wait a minute. I have a lovely half Thai three year old daughter. Does this mean I can sell her when she is marriageable age ? Hmmmm....

Yes of course you could assuming you are another thaivisa intellectual.

Heck, theres probably an expat that would give me a big sinsod for my uni grad doctoral virgin ass also.

Hahaha yeah selling your daughter seems a bit harsh. My plan is to send her to university in America, and end up with a good job. So hopefully she may buy a dinner or two for her Dad when he is doddering about.....

555.

assuming I had a daughter growing up in thailand the only thing that would make me ask a sinsod would be if the proposed husband was a creep low life in which case I'd set the sinsod so high he'd never pay. Sort of like setting a high "bail" to protect society.

[Donnie Brasco]

Thai Cowchah

Khun kowchai pasa Thai, mai kap?

As for "skin in the game," he who has the gold, makes the rules. That would be the man - not the girl or her family. Women claim "I have the pussy, so I make the rules!" I say - only if the man is a pussy and allows her. Remember men, YOU are the prize, not her. This includes your daughter, bro....

By "Thai Cowchah" I meant "Thai Culture" as pronounced by some of the scions and mavens of this board.

And however we end up handling the sinsot thing I would just impress upon any one of these "hit-and-run" sex grifter predators that there is NO law here that would keep me from exacting satisfaction should he "default."

In this jurisdiction the sinsot is just a measure of comfort for all concerned.

And yes, I claim the right to apply a double standard because this is a bi-cultural arrangement.

I'll get the wedding but I want to see joint ownership commitment on a significant appreciating asset that he's bankrolled.

Land, house, gold, a condo . . . . . assets.

The wife's family pride.

My exceptional daughter's personal happiness.

And, of course, the young man's personal safety, as well.

(In the end, it's a kind of 'insurance' for him)

It's all about measures of comfort.

Take that any way you want bro.

"Sometimes, 'fuggedabowdit' just means fuggedabowdit."

[Phoenix1312]

Please do yourself a favour and go with your thoughts. You will get burned again. You are right, you don't have to get married again. Don't pay anything to the family if you do decide to marry her.

[JO1973]

I don't think you should pay it for all of the reasons you enumerated. Plus, as you already are supporting their family you can explain to your girlfriend and her family that, that is their dowry. If they don't like it, stop supporting them for a couple of months and the money you saved can be presented as a dowry.

I have read so many times how people admonish people in your situation saying that since you're marrying outside of your culture you have to accept everything and anything in Thai culture. I think that is a load of bull -- your girlfriend is marrying outside of her culture too (i.e. yours). Your cultural beliefs are just as valid/important as hers.

I don't know why people seem to think that Western beliefs and traditions take a backseat to Asian beliefs but they DON'T. You have been down this road before. You have seen the ugly side of the dowry system. If your girlfriend truly loves you and her family aren't merely trying to bleed you dry they will understand your situation. If not then you have your answer.

[jacko45k]

This is going to produce a mixed bag of opinions.

You said that you had no 'need' to get married again.... then don't.

You have a bad track record, although not a track of bad women, but why should the 'latest' be blamed for those failures?

Why on earth did you pick-up the responsibility of buying them a new pickup? You need to learn to say no.

Don't get married, you aren't ready for it and I doubt it will last beyond building them a new house or the sinsot. If they cannot accept that, then she was not the right one for you, move on.

[mrowe1973]

Punishing your next wife for the actions of your previous wife, that makes perfect sense.

It's called evolving not punishing. A wise man learns from his mistakes! If she leaves him because of this that's her and her family problem.

[dotpoom]

I have already been there and lost money, after marrying the Thai girl of my dreams and finally getting married and paying the dowry ( ok not a big fortune) she left me after only 2 weeks and the family ended up with a new motorcycle at my expense. But that is history. Now the new Thai girl of my dreams wants us to get married ( we have been together for 15 months). I have promised to marry her before October so I asked her today what was expected of me (knowing in my mind there is no way I am paying any dowry). She replied the family would expect money and gold. My immediate reply was there is no way I am paying anything as I do not believe in buying a girl from the family. I do already support the family by paying the monthly payments on the shiny pickup parked at their house. I know their are many ways to look at this problem but I am English and things are the opposite there and the father of the Bride is supposed to pay everything. I could risk losing my girlfriend over this but I have my pride and my views. I know this subject has been dealt with many times but we all have our opinions about what is right in this situation. But I would appreciate the views of other TV members but I am 99% sure my mind is made up. I may add that I have no need to get married again as I have a bad track record with marriages - my first wife has been certified mentally ill, my second wife died in a motor accident and you know what happened to my Thai bride so by getting married again it could end up with disaster as my daughter keeps telling me. So why should I get married and risk losing a wife and a dowry as well. Keithkarmann

You sound like an honest sincere guy, Keith.

Stick to your guns.

Unless your fiancé is a corn-fed Uni-graduated virgin, do NOT be blackmailed into this thing.

Respect yourself.

You won't find what you are looking for with this family.

And, YES. I am insisting on sinsot for my own daughter.

And Keith I'll go so far as to say "Call me a hypocrite but Keith would be the first to agree that he'd never be eligible to marry my daughter"

"Sometimes, 'fuggedabowdit' just means fuggedabowdit."

Probably the rudest thing I'v read on TV (and that takes some doing). Why would Keith think that he would never be eligible to marry your daughter?. Oh, sorry...I see now why you say that....because he could never match her Father's arrogance and bad manners......lucky for Keith. As was already mentioned....Keith sounds like a really nice guy......unlike some people who like to put people down....(don't have to look too far on this occasion for one of them).

[larsjohnsson]

Why would anybody buy a wife from her parents?

When Thailand have so many women/girls that would do it whitout money/gold/cars/house for her parents

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[lostmebike]

Sinsod, don't do it!

[Donnie Brasco]

I have already been there and lost money, after marrying the Thai girl of my dreams and finally getting married and paying the dowry ( ok not a big fortune) she left me after only 2 weeks and the family ended up with a new motorcycle at my expense. But that is history. Now the new Thai girl of my dreams wants us to get married ( we have been together for 15 months). I have promised to marry her before October so I asked her today what was expected of me (knowing in my mind there is no way I am paying any dowry). She replied the family would expect money and gold. My immediate reply was there is no way I am paying anything as I do not believe in buying a girl from the family. I do already support the family by paying the monthly payments on the shiny pickup parked at their house. I know their are many ways to look at this problem but I am English and things are the opposite there and the father of the Bride is supposed to pay everything. I could risk losing my girlfriend over this but I have my pride and my views. I know this subject has been dealt with many times but we all have our opinions about what is right in this situation. But I would appreciate the views of other TV members but I am 99% sure my mind is made up. I may add that I have no need to get married again as I have a bad track record with marriages - my first wife has been certified mentally ill, my second wife died in a motor accident and you know what happened to my Thai bride so by getting married again it could end up with disaster as my daughter keeps telling me. So why should I get married and risk losing a wife and a dowry as well. Keithkarmann

You sound like an honest sincere guy, Keith.

Stick to your guns.

Unless your fiancé is a corn-fed Uni-graduated virgin, do NOT be blackmailed into this thing.

Respect yourself.

You won't find what you are looking for with this family.

And, YES. I am insisting on sinsot for my own daughter.

And Keith I'll go so far as to say "Call me a hypocrite but Keith would be the first to agree that he'd never be eligible to marry my daughter"

"Sometimes, 'fuggedabowdit' just means fuggedabowdit."

Probably the rudest thing I'v read on TV (and that takes some doing). Why would Keith think that he would never be eligible to marry your daughter?. Oh, sorry...I see now why you say that....because he could never match her Father's arrogance and bad manners......lucky for Keith. As was already mentioned....Keith sounds like a really nice guy......unlike some people who like to put people down....(don't have to look too far on this occasion for one of them).

Hey dotpoom ? You need to get out more ;-)

"Sometimes, 'fuggedabowdit' just means fuggedabowdit."

[TechnikaIII]

I am from Texas. I told them all, right at the beginning, that Texas men expect the prospective bride to pay me a dowry. Texas custom requires me to be in charge of the family and the money. Texas customs require that the woman take the man's surname and become part of his family and leave her natal family. it works for me.

The "I am from Texas" may work for the pathetic in developing countries, but it doesn't wash with the rest of the world. In fact it is sickening.

[atyclb]

Thai Cowchah

Khun kowchai pasa Thai, mai kap?

As for "skin in the game," he who has the gold, makes the rules. That would be the man - not the girl or her family. Women claim "I have the pussy, so I make the rules!" I say - only if the man is a pussy and allows her. Remember men, YOU are the prize, not her. This includes your daughter, bro....

By "Thai Cowchah" I meant "Thai Culture" as pronounced by some of the scions and mavens of this board.

And however we end up handling the sinsot thing I would just impress upon any one of these "hit-and-run" sex grifter predators that there is NO law here that would keep me from exacting satisfaction should he "default."

In this jurisdiction the sinsot is just a measure of comfort for all concerned.

And yes, I claim the right to apply a double standard because this is a bi-cultural arrangement.

I'll get the wedding but I want to see joint ownership commitment on a significant appreciating asset that he's bankrolled.

Land, house, gold, a condo . . . . . assets.

The wife's family pride.

My exceptional daughter's personal happiness.

And, of course, the young man's personal safety, as well.

(In the end, it's a kind of 'insurance' for him)

It's all about measures of comfort.

Take that any way you want bro.

"Sometimes, 'fuggedabowdit' just means fuggedabowdit."

I'm not sure if your reply is comical as in sarcastic humor or serious. If not comical its as if you lay the framework for sinsod as being some sort of financial guaranty because it is difficult in society to find people with integrity and honor and to trust them without paying some sort of financial "bond" Perhaps you are trying to recoup the sinsod you may have had to cough up?

It seems Japan had a sort of dowry system during the Edo period (1600–1868) however society has progressed. now families may exchange gifts. Of course there is no lack of integrity and honor in Japanese society as well as substance over image.

[SanukJoeII]

I always wonder why people cannot see the large grey part in between black and white. Sinsod yes or no. Is there nothing in between? Of course there is. Why not let your grey cells work and come up with a plan that nullifies any greedy desires from a Thai family?

Here a few things to think over:

1. In most countries it is against the law to buy a woman (Law for the protection of women). Tell the family that you respect Thai traditions but you cannot do unlawful things, as you are farang.

2. Show them that you know what sinsod used to be: a financial cushion for the bride, in case her hubby dies or runs away, kind of savings for bad times.

3. In case the groom would live on the family's premises it is usual that he contributes to the living needs of the family, originally by buying a buffalo (can now be translated into a tractor, car or whatever).

4. The blabla about he shows that he can take care of her can be easily wiped away: if he pays the family he has less money to take care of the bride.

5. The big deal that leaves greedy mouths silent: You promise to take care of the woman, you will even get her money for herself, but you do that in monthly/quarterly/annual payments. It means if you pay 10K per month on a fixed account she will have 120K each year she stays with you, in 8 years nearly a million. For the man it is a ncie protection against quick-divorce and lost money, as soon as she leaves, the payments stop.

6. Talk to educated women, friends of your gf, and tell them repeatedly that you will NOT buy a woman, you are too much a gentleman to do so, you want to make your gf happy with a good life, shared together. Joke that you want her to share your life, not your wallet....

It works, we know that Thai families are greedy, surely Isan families, but going back to the original meaning of sinsod, offering to take very good care of their daughter and eventually coming in their direction with a display of money and gold, that will ALL be returned after the wedding.

I live in Isan since 7+ years, was married (no sinsod) but divorced, and I decided (until further notice) to stay single and just have a couple of nice female friends who sometimes stay for breakfast but not for lunch, if you know what I mean. Quite some local women admire my standpoint re sinsod and not buying a woman, they have been suppressed all their lives in favour of their lazy empty-headed brothers, who are considered a personal gift of Buddha.

The main message is: talk to them, understand them but let them also understand you. Their daughter wants to marry a farang, that means that all have also to listen what farang can do and what not, farang also has a tradition, culture, maybe religion, and there is no need to throw that overboard for a greedy Thai family.

Spend your money, but don't throw it away!

[Donnie Brasco]

I'm as dead serious as one can be in these matters.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[ZAKY]

This greediness is farang's fault, they have taken this sinsod supposed traditional too serious at the begining they were so happy to see the smiles of the in-laws and now this is falling on others head. Never start something that you cannot stop.

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[alanrchase]

As I recall the biggest expence for my marriage was the British Embassy. My Father inlaw questioned sinsod a few years later to which I replied "your daughter has been married once before, how many times can you expect to be paid?" He does quite well out of me by the way which I am fine with but no marriage payment.

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[Scarpolo]

Thanks for putting water to my mill ! I was saying since the begining that the falangs want to show off that they CAN !!! They are the biggest culprit of having created this plus for appetite for money from the thai girls at a point i can tell you that it was like a competition among falangs of getting the most beautiful girls, some tends to show that he is more thai than others; they forget that living in thailand, speaking thai, eating thai food etc... Will never make them a thai...So where is the pride? Even if you are on a marriage visa: tomorrow you get divorce- ! You will have to leave thailand

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

Gosh they are so welcoming here,

Even the marriage visa is temporary,

great,

and, I hear the Ministry of Finance and Chamber of Commerce on the radio now doing a campaign to tell foreigners what a great place Thailand is for investment

[Scarpolo]

Get burn once...a mistake.

Get burn again...stupidity.

for the first bride family you bought a motorbike....

for the second a car...

will you go for a house next time if this wont work out?

I did not buy the motorbike the family bought that when I was off the scene. As for the car payments, I do pay my girlfriend a combined salary for cooking, cleaning and for nightly comforts (daytime as well) as I do not want her to go out to work in case I need her during the day. She told me her parents were struggling financially and I agreed that she could give them money every month out of her salary for payments on the pickup and yes these payments should compensate for the lack of dowry. What annoys me most is that her father is a lazy b-----d and lays in his hammock all day while the mother does all the work around the house and looks after the small eatery next to the house. I am a good bit older than my girlfriend and most of the time we get on well. But if she threatens to leave again maybe I should just let her go. Oh yes I was going to build her a house and at some point she said what would I do if she drastically reduced my sex allowance and my reply was the house build is cancelled and she knows if there is no honey then there would be no money.

I have lost money with girls in Thailand but nothing a could not handle.

It seems you have some extreme self-confidence issues.

You are employing a maid/prostitute, that's the be all and end all of the situation - you have not once mentioned 'love', and make clear that you consider this to be a case of exchanging money for 'services'. She is not your 'girlfriend', she is your employee and it's all a bit depressing to be frank, from the perspective of both parties.

But to the crux of your question, why on earth would you consider marriage if what you really want is someone to service your needs in exchange for money? If that's what you think you require for happiness, at the expense of a soulmate, how is getting married an improvement on not getting married in any way?

Sounds a bit like voluntarily walking into prison and saying, take me, I don't belong on my own outside

[Scarpolo]

i was wondering do Thai males give dowrys and if so i bet they dont give tousands on Bahts, why oh why do farangs fall for this, the best option is if ya want to live in Thailand dont get invloved with a lady who will fleece you (yeah they all do i know) but to live on your own and spend your money on a "bar-girl" once a week believe me you will have much variation and thousands of Bahts beter off lol !!

Even more incredible.....as somebody had mentioned......

If this is a rock solid custom (and it is not..just used to be) then imagine this....

Would a Thai Male pay sin sot to a farang lady if they married here? Sounds too weird...but I sure doubt it.

That definitely clears up the whole mess. They marry for a better lifestyle....that makes a marriage with a farang different alone. No need worry about face...the only face lost is that you were smarter that they.

totally agree. When I first started dating my current gf the topic came up as I told her a story about a recent wedding for a friend and how much sin sot was paid. She said back then that her sinsot would be high but returned at the wedding bc her parents are 'modern' etc. Now months on, the topic has come up and she says that it will have to be paid with no refund. I told her that Im not willing to pay it should we be married. No way....Im not paying a lot of money to strangers (ie her parents)... I did say that we could help look after them when they get really old as long as this responsibility is shared with the 2 brothers. Im not going to give in on this decision

Interesting,

you are being shown a "bait and switch" in advance, and not understanding that she feels she doesnt even have to wait until you are "all in"

unless, you have thown in the towel and she feels she has already achieved complete control, and you are already expendable.

take her, at her word,

which, is not reliable to do anything less than she is already doing,

she is a moving target

[Scarpolo]

Where there was true love, I've seen parents put in place, meaning by their daughter.

Ultimately, this is a matter not of the parents' position, but the daughter's.

If she is simply a spokesperson for her parents or wider family, that is what she will, forever, be. Do you want that?

I would have that it's critical to ask how you managed to parent the pickup, unmarried and at an early juncture. Pushy them? Overly accommodating you? More important, what role did the lady play then?

Maybe time to put your foot down - either with her, them or yourself, or any combination thereof!

My "girllfriend" has already gotten her mother past the sin sot, but, I can tell everyone here,

the likelihood of that being forgotten by her friends and family, is nil.

they all still participate, including the thai's, I have seen the pictures of her friends weddings,

(who knows what the real arrangement is)

but one girlfriend, just had a new boyfriend, thai and thai, buy her a new house, within weeks of dating, right after dumping her thai boyfriend,

so, this is not a farange issue, but the age old, survival of the fittest for the woman issue,

the dumped boyfriend, worked sporatically, and was "rumored" to be screwing around,

sounds like every bad farange story, but no farange

[Scarpolo]

If your pride and your views are more important than your G/F, then the obvious answer to all this is don't get married. Even if you end up not paying the Sin Sod. You are not ready for that yet. So no point in confusing the issue about paying Sin Sod when it has nothing to do with your feelings about marriage, and her.

You mention you have been together for 15 months, but are you talking about day to day life for 15 months, or a few trips a year to visit her over a 15 month period. There is a bid difference between the two. I to went down the same road as you with 2 failed marriages under my belt. It took me years with my present wife to trust marriage again and so far all is well. Marriage is also still a very big deal in Thailand, whereas Common Law Marriage and just living together is getting to be more popular in the West.

If you only stumbling block is what you say, which is the Sin Sod, then keep in mind this statement. There is "Pride" but there is also "False Pride" and "Foolish Pride". In Thailand, I find it is best sometimes to keep My Pride in My Pocket and where it belongs. You mentioned that in the West the Father of the Bride pays the whole shot, but you know as well as I do that this does not happen very often. Usually it is split between the parents 50/50.

But this is not the West anyway and you are not wanting to marry a Western Woman. You chose a Thai Girl who has her own culture and Sid Sod is part of her culture. Sin Sod is also not the same as a Dowry. In most places a Dowry is paid for the Bride which she gets to keep all through the marriage, and if things go South, after the divorce. Sin Sod traditionally goes to the parents of the Bride.

By tradition, what you are supposed to be paying for is lost income to the parents, although this is not always the case. Daughters are expected to help out with the family income all through their lives. But the parents will lose some of that, or all of that, if she marries and now her income and labour goes to him and his family. If she is not educated and works on the family farm, by tradition she will move into her husbands family and now work with her husbands, or his family's farm instead. Thai Woman traditionally move in with her husbands family and not them moving in with hers.

If she is well educated, then what you are paying for in a Sin Sod is the lost income to the parents and a better income you will get for her. So in a way you are compensating them for the money they spent on her and lost labour they have, by sending her to get her higher education. In a way, I guess it is like a Bar Fine. You are paying it to take this girl out of the bar where the owner may see this as lost income. Perhaps having to pay another girl take her place. I know it doesn't always work this way anymore, but this is what is behind it all.

This may seem strange as for us I guess it is. Also Thail Men pay Sin Sod, so we are not alone here. Also, and in my fathers time in Canada, it was very common to have many kids in the family to help out on the family farm. There was 15 kids in my dad's family. So kids back then were also considered a workable asset in Canada, and as they are in Thailand. They also cared for their elderly back then, which of course they don't do anymore. Just place them in some Old Foke's Home instead.

As I said, I really don't think you are ready for marriage and the sooner you explain that to your G/F, and why, she will hopefully understand. Just tell her you need more time. If she can't wait then she is not the one for you and move on. I know how you feel as it took me years to get over this with Umpteen Money lost as well. I am not sure even now where I will end up. But the way I got it figured out now is that since I still keep control of the money, this is far better then living alone. Or a life of One Night Stands with Bar Girls.

Good Luck!.

Perhaps the most "reasoned? reply ever on this topic:

I like the way it ends, though,

keeping control of the money.

I survived two divorces that way

[Scarpolo]

Short time's the answer...for that perfect happy ending where there is no loss of money...or face.....and the family will have to pay for their own pick-up.

Everything is short time here on planet earth,

Once the age of 50 us reached,

marriage is for chumps,

even in the states