PM Yingluck pleads for new dialogue with protesters

[djjamie]

One side asks for negotiations and condemns violence. The other side refuses to stray from its obstinate agenda and openly praises armed assailants and taunts opponents.

You are lying by admission or simply suppressing evidence.

This has the advantage that you can't get caught in the lie, because everything that you say is actually true. You just happily fail to mention all of those annoying little facts that do not support your point of view. Should someone point out one of those annoying undesired facts, you can at least protest innocent ignorance, or claim that the fact is really just an unimportant, trivial detail, not worth mentioning.

One of those annoying facts is that a UDD leader celebrated the deaths and injuries of protestors in Trat to which the crowd erupted in cheers and thunderous applause. Of course that fact has to be left out as you are trying to make a point that your side is good and the other side is evil. However you are unconsciously projecting your sides evil onto the opposition without even realizing it.

I could also lie by admission and say factually "One side refuses to negotiate on democracy if that involves compromising all the principles and they also condemn violence. The other side refuses to stray from it's obstinate agenda and openly praises armed assailants and taunts opponents."

You have facts to back up your argument, but leave out the annoying facts. I have facts to back up my argument, but again, leave out the annoying facts.

I won't argue who's omitted facts are more in tune to perpetuating a civil war. It is not appropriate for this post and is a completely different subject.

Cheers.

Edited February 24, 2014 by djjamie

[redsox44]

Powers above started this so why should they have their front man talk to anyone. At the end of the day most "normal"Thai will be shocked or should say more saddened when they learn who actually is pulling Suthep's strings.

[Crushdepth]

RS/UDD should know that they and the law enforcement officers are in the 'open' while the militants of the dem's pdrc/pcad are hidden. The popcorn brigade surfaced only during and at certain 'signals'. They have been patterns on the way they are surfacing and I am sure investigators should pursue in that direction. Greater effort should be in the pursuing of the 'popcorn vendors, distributors and brigades'.

RS/UDD and law enforcement officers who are in the 'open' should also be aware of the way the dem's pdrc/pcad accused them and used them as scapegoats.

You're wasting your time trying to portray UDD/redshirt movement as peaceful. We've already been through several cycles of their violence and burning (maybe we'll be treated to another red Songkran?)

As for hidden guards, oh please. Men in black?

[h90]

RS/UDD should know that they and the law enforcement officers are in the 'open' while the militants of the dem's pdrc/pcad are hidden. The popcorn brigade surfaced only during and at certain 'signals'. They have been patterns on the way they are surfacing and I am sure investigators should pursue in that direction. Greater effort should be in the pursuing of the 'popcorn vendors, distributors and brigades'.

RS/UDD and law enforcement officers who are in the 'open' should also be aware of the way the dem's pdrc/pcad accused them and used them as scapegoats.

yes they surface only when someone is shooting and bombing on the protesters.

"Law enforcement" could fix that by not shooting at old grandmas and their grandchildren, than they don't get problems with the popcorn vendors.

[h90]

Powers above started this so why should they have their front man talk to anyone. At the end of the day most "normal"Thai will be shocked or should say more saddened when they learn who actually is pulling Suthep's strings.

I think most of the rich and middle class is pulling Suthep forward, while the poor southern rubberfarmer are pushing.

And if it continues like this for a bit longer Suthep will become the hero of the Isaan rice farmer....it will need time, but with every day unpaid and with every picture from rotten rice there will be a few more who understand him.

[blaze]

Why H90?

What policies is he proposing that would benefit the Issan rice farmers?

Will he maintain the minimum wage? Or roll it back?

All he is promising is -- reform that will lead to an erradication of corruption. The entire world will react much more strongly when their paychecks are halved than were gov't corruption to be halved.

do you honestly think the working poor will welcome a roll back of the minimum wage- that farmers will welcome a lower price (non-subsidized) for their products?

THe rice farmers are NOT protesting the rice buying program- they are protesting that the gov't has not lived up to its end of the deal.

And any future gov't better be prepared to match the offers made by PTP- or they won't get the rice vote.

Similarly- it will be political suicide for those wanting the working poor vote to roll back the minimum wage.

So I can't see your reasoning-

It is curious to me why the apparant support for Suthep by the rubber farmers (who, it can be argued, are more financially secure than the rice farmers--) They too have demanded subsidies equal to those of the rice farmers. Sooner or later Suthep is going to have to say something of political substance--0 they watch the tides turn against HIM.

At present this is a circus and all the razzled dazzle and noise and bluster- all the unrepressed hates and resenstment- the sense of being 'on the team'- has blinded many to the bigger picture- flash and razzle dazzle-- But some day, somebody is going to have to answer to these people- and hating the Shinawatras-= driving them from the land- won't pay for the truck- won't guarantee equal treatment under the law- won't erradicate the middle man, the loan shark.

Thais now expect governments to take an interest in their lives the way that they hadn't till Thaksin rolled up. That's not going to change- and Suthep/Abhisit is going to have to make some clear policy statements once the fireworks are quiet-

Edited February 24, 2014 by blaze

[daboyz1]

" I am here to protect democracy. If I resign, there will be a vacuum which paves the way for an abolition of the Constitution and [bringing in] an undemocratic system. I have to protect democracy in my capacity as leader of the government. "

Nonsense from beginning to end. A vacuum is what we have right here and right now. And the constitution is the very instrument that will deal with it. The constitution states that if a parliamentary quorum is not achieved by March 4, the administration folds, and the constitution takes over with the process that follows. Either she steps down now or on March 4 is entirely up to her, but after that the constitution doesn't give her a choice. What she is protecting first and foremost is Thaksin. Thaksin is the only reason she is prime minister, and Thaksin is the only reason she is staying. And instead of going to the province of Saraburi today, why didn't she go to Trat ? Why didn't she go to Ratchaprason ? Is this the example she is setting as prime minister ? Is this how she bonds with the Thai people after such unspeakable crimes against humanity ?

Great post. This is all about Thaksin. Anyone who thinks it isn't, is fooling themselves.

[The Deerhunter]

The only vacuums are between her and Chalerm's ears.

[blaze]

" I am here to protect democracy. If I resign, there will be a vacuum which paves the way for an abolition of the Constitution and [bringing in] an undemocratic system. I have to protect democracy in my capacity as leader of the government. "

Nonsense from beginning to end. A vacuum is what we have right here and right now. And the constitution is the very instrument that will deal with it. The constitution states that if a parliamentary quorum is not achieved by March 4, the administration folds, and the constitution takes over with the process that follows. Either she steps down now or on March 4 is entirely up to her, but after that the constitution doesn't give her a choice. What she is protecting first and foremost is Thaksin. Thaksin is the only reason she is prime minister, and Thaksin is the only reason she is staying. And instead of going to the province of Saraburi today, why didn't she go to Trat ? Why didn't she go to Ratchaprason ? Is this the example she is setting as prime minister ? Is this how she bonds with the Thai people after such unspeakable crimes against humanity ?

Great post. This is all about Thaksin. Anyone who thinks it isn't, is fooling themselves.

Yes in a sense you are correct.

Thaksin sought to modernize the economy. This involved financially empowering the farmers-- but the real goal (if the history of other countries emerging from the stranglehold of feudal economics is anything to go by) he threatened to open the playing field for 'new capitalists' (you recall of course, the hatred of the PAD for 'capitalism'- which seems strange considering that many of its supporters were very wealthy- but it was the wealth of the hereditary monopoly- not the dog eat dog darwinian struggle that modern capitalism entails.

Back in the 80s it was said that about 12 families controlled the entire economy of the country- More than any one person- Thaksin threatened that system. And in so doing brought the farmers along in order to obtain the votes needed to bring Thailand into the twentieth century.

All the crap about his corruption (do you honestly think Thais hate corruption? That suthep hates corruption?) is pablum tossed to people who can't understand t he bigger picture (like many on this board) the real issue is a marked change in the economic and political power structures of the country- the old is being challenged by the new- and that never goes down easily.

[fleeing]

Why H90?

What policies is he proposing that would benefit the Issan rice farmers?

Will he maintain the minimum wage? Or roll it back?

All he is promising is -- reform that will lead to an erradication of corruption. The entire world will react much more strongly when their paychecks are halved than were gov't corruption to be halved.

do you honestly think the working poor will welcome a roll back of the minimum wage- that farmers will welcome a lower price (non-subsidized) for their products?

THe rice farmers are NOT protesting the rice buying program- they are protesting that the gov't has not lived up to its end of the deal.

And any future gov't better be prepared to match the offers made by PTP- or they won't get the rice vote.

Similarly- it will be political suicide for those wanting the working poor vote to roll back the minimum wage.

So I can't see your reasoning-

It is curious to me why the apparant support for Suthep by the rubber farmers (who, it can be argued, are more financially secure than the rice farmers--) They too have demanded subsidies equal to those of the rice farmers. Sooner or later Suthep is going to have to say something of political substance--0 they watch the tides turn against HIM.

At present this is a circus and all the razzled dazzle and noise and bluster- all the unrepressed hates and resenstment- the sense of being 'on the team'- has blinded many to the bigger picture- flash and razzle dazzle-- But some day, somebody is going to have to answer to these people- and hating the Shinawatras-= driving them from the land- won't pay for the truck- won't guarantee equal treatment under the law- won't erradicate the middle man, the loan shark.

Thais now expect governments to take an interest in their lives the way that they hadn't till Thaksin rolled up. That's not going to change- and Suthep/Abhisit is going to have to make some clear policy statements once the fireworks are quiet-

Suthep is not proposing policies, as you yourself confirm. He is proposing reforms that will, hopefully, tackle the corruption that at a parliamentary level has divided the nation, and the removal of Thaksin's influence from Thai politics. Any talk about rolling back minimum wage or maintaining the rice scheme at it's current ill affordable levels is just 'whatiffery' of the worst degree.

[Hawkman]

" I am here to protect democracy. If I resign, there will be a vacuum which paves the way for an abolition of the Constitution and [bringing in] an undemocratic system. I have to protect democracy in my capacity as leader of the government. "

Nonsense from beginning to end. A vacuum is what we have right here and right now. And the constitution is the very instrument that will deal with it. The constitution states that if a parliamentary quorum is not achieved by March 4, the administration folds, and the constitution takes over with the process that follows. Either she steps down now or on March 4 is entirely up to her, but after that the constitution doesn't give her a choice. What she is protecting first and foremost is Thaksin. Thaksin is the only reason she is prime minister, and Thaksin is the only reason she is staying. And instead of going to the province of Saraburi today, why didn't she go to Trat ? Why didn't she go to Ratchaprason ? Is this the example she is setting as prime minister ? Is this how she bonds with the Thai people after such unspeakable crimes against humanity ?

Great post. This is all about Thaksin. Anyone who thinks it isn't, is fooling themselves.

Yes in a sense you are correct.

Thaksin sought to modernize the economy. This involved financially empowering the farmers-- but the real goal (if the history of other countries emerging from the stranglehold of feudal economics is anything to go by) he threatened to open the playing field for 'new capitalists' (you recall of course, the hatred of the PAD for 'capitalism'- which seems strange considering that many of its supporters were very wealthy- but it was the wealth of the hereditary monopoly- not the dog eat dog darwinian struggle that modern capitalism entails.

Back in the 80s it was said that about 12 families controlled the entire economy of the country- More than any one person- Thaksin threatened that system. And in so doing brought the farmers along in order to obtain the votes needed to bring Thailand into the twentieth century.

All the crap about his corruption (do you honestly think Thais hate corruption? That suthep hates corruption?) is pablum tossed to people who can't understand t he bigger picture (like many on this board) the real issue is a marked change in the economic and political power structures of the country- the old is being challenged by the new- and that never goes down easily.

You've fallen for the red propaganda too then? If what you are saying is true, that Thais aren't bothered about corruption, why are there so many fed up to the back teeth of it and thinking enough is enough. If Thaksin wants to distribute the wealth to the poor folk, why are they still poor and he is a multi billionaire?

Why have their been so many deals to benefit the poor folk in Isaan, where the goods and money don't appear but end up with the middle men and higher? He might be battling the ruling Elite but he doesn't give one monkey's about the poor and their needs, only their votes, to fuel his power and ego. If not, why doesn't he pay the farmers out of his own pocket? Why doesn't he pull himself away from this power trip? He has his riches now, he could just walk away, but he doesn't. It's all about power and money, can't you see that? This isn't about democracy, this is about power. Open your eyes. If he really cared about democracy why did he try and force through the Amnesty bill which benefits him and prevents his party getting done for the rice scam.

[animatic]

" I am here to protect democracy. If I resign, there will be a vacuum which paves the way for an abolition of the Constitution and [bringing in] an undemocratic system. I have to protect democracy in my capacity as leader of the government. "

Nonsense from beginning to end. A vacuum is what we have right here and right now. And the constitution is the very instrument that will deal with it. The constitution states that if a parliamentary quorum is not achieved by March 4, the administration folds, and the constitution takes over with the process that follows. Either she steps down now or on March 4 is entirely up to her, but after that the constitution doesn't give her a choice. What she is protecting first and foremost is Thaksin. Thaksin is the only reason she is prime minister, and Thaksin is the only reason she is staying. And instead of going to the province of Saraburi today, why didn't she go to Trat ? Why didn't she go to Ratchaprason ? Is this the example she is setting as prime minister ? Is this how she bonds with the Thai people after such unspeakable crimes against humanity ?

Great post. This is all about Thaksin. Anyone who thinks it isn't, is fooling themselves.

Yes in a sense you are correct.

Thaksin sought to modernize the economy. This involved financially empowering the farmers-- but the real goal (if the history of other countries emerging from the stranglehold of feudal economics is anything to go by) he threatened to open the playing field for 'new capitalists' (you recall of course, the hatred of the PAD for 'capitalism'- which seems strange considering that many of its supporters were very wealthy- but it was the wealth of the hereditary monopoly- not the dog eat dog darwinian struggle that modern capitalism entails.

Back in the 80s it was said that about 12 families controlled the entire economy of the country- More than any one person- Thaksin threatened that system. And in so doing brought the farmers along in order to obtain the votes needed to bring Thailand into the twentieth century.

All the crap about his corruption (do you honestly think Thais hate corruption? That suthep hates corruption?) is pablum tossed to people who can't understand t he bigger picture (like many on this board) the real issue is a marked change in the economic and political power structures of the country- the old is being challenged by the new- and that never goes down easily.

Thaksin sought to harness the farmers as a voting block by using populist policies, paid for by others.

Some worked and his PR teams made sure those that did for a time reinforced his intended legend as

friend of the common man versus the horrible elites. Utterly ignoring the fact he was an elite,

a nouveaux riche elite, but no less an elite by the time those farmers heard of him.

The problem remains; He still has that same mind set of social climbing by gaining power,

face and money sans compunctions, is the same mindset he brought into office,

and caused his downfall from office.

Now he has lost face and money, but clawed back some power over the country

and those who put him lower before. But he still has the same mindset; That he hasn't won.

It still colors his maladministration of Thailand through his string of proxies.

He has finally run those populist policy to their logical conclusion, national bankruptcy a

nd a million farmers broke, starving and enraged, and those who he has stepped on, mistreated

or strong armed in his quest for return to the big game are as angry, and they smell his blood in the water.

The opposition doesn't want to TALK to those who have never talked in good faith in the past.

Their negotiating position starts at removal from power of the Thaksin Political Machine.

Once it is done, those in PTP and other hangers on of the liege lords coat tails who walk away,

will eventually be rehabilitated and returned to the fold in the classic Thai way. Shin clan likely excepted.

They have seen what happens when the hydra is left with one snake left, and it isn't pretty.

But as usual Thaksin is incapable under stress of seeing that things have gone too far and

that he has over reached again, and so he just keeps pushing, no matter the cost to others,

because others really don't matter to him, not compared to his lost face, money and power.

Edited February 24, 2014 by animatic

[sweatalot]

"She expressed condolences to the families of victims and those injured in the violent incidents and said police were ordered to find the culprits.

Ms Yingluck visited an OTOP (One Tambon One Product) shopping complex in Saraburi today only to encounter a protest by PDRC supporters who verbally attacked her using a loudspeaker. She left the scene after a brief visit."

Reads as: "Sorry 'bout that, I'm going shopping now". **Smile Wave Smile Wave**

Does it really read as that? Instead of wasting bandwidth why don't you come up with a solution to Thailand's problems instead of writing silly unfounded comments

That goes for most of the TV posters who like to air their views, not one has come up with a sensible solution since these political problems have started

Well said - So

Where is YOUR sensible solution ?

[Rich teacher]

One side asks for negotiations and condemns violence. The other side refuses to stray from its obstinate agenda and openly praises armed assailants and taunts opponents.

You are lying by admission or simply suppressing evidence.

This has the advantage that you can't get caught in the lie, because everything that you say is actually true. You just happily fail to mention all of those annoying little facts that do not support your point of view. Should someone point out one of those annoying undesired facts, you can at least protest innocent ignorance, or claim that the fact is really just an unimportant, trivial detail, not worth mentioning.

One of those annoying facts is that a UDD leader celebrated the deaths and injuries of protestors in Trat to which the crowd erupted in cheers and thunderous applause. Of course that fact has to be left out as you are trying to make a point that your side is good and the other side is evil. However you are unconsciously projecting your sides evil onto the opposition without even realizing it.

I could also lie by admission and say factually "One side refuses to negotiate on democracy if that involves compromising all the principles and they also condemn violence. The other side refuses to stray from it's obstinate agenda and openly praises armed assailants and taunts opponents."

You have facts to back up your argument, but leave out the annoying facts. I have facts to back up my argument, but again, leave out the annoying facts.

I won't argue who's omitted facts are more in tune to perpetuating a civil war. It is not appropriate for this post and is a completely different subject.

Cheers.

Personally I detest weapons and violence. I also think it is despicable that people would applaud a sick act of violence causing injuries and death to many. But I do distinctly recall the glee and gloating on TV and ASTV by many when the army killed 90+ red shirts in 2010. There were untold comments stating that the reds got what they deserved and the victims warranted no sympathy. That was even though many were unarmed peaceful protesters, bystanders and even medical staff shot dead without a weapon in sight.

I dare say if there was a similar incident to that in Trat, at a red shirt rally, the yellow mob would react similarly. They certainly seem to cheer a lot for the popcorn terrorist who paralysed an old man.

[h90]

Why H90?

What policies is he proposing that would benefit the Issan rice farmers?

Will he maintain the minimum wage? Or roll it back?

All he is promising is -- reform that will lead to an erradication of corruption. The entire world will react much more strongly when their paychecks are halved than were gov't corruption to be halved.

do you honestly think the working poor will welcome a roll back of the minimum wage- that farmers will welcome a lower price (non-subsidized) for their products?

THe rice farmers are NOT protesting the rice buying program- they are protesting that the gov't has not lived up to its end of the deal.

And any future gov't better be prepared to match the offers made by PTP- or they won't get the rice vote.

Similarly- it will be political suicide for those wanting the working poor vote to roll back the minimum wage.

So I can't see your reasoning-

It is curious to me why the apparant support for Suthep by the rubber farmers (who, it can be argued, are more financially secure than the rice farmers--) They too have demanded subsidies equal to those of the rice farmers. Sooner or later Suthep is going to have to say something of political substance--0 they watch the tides turn against HIM.

At present this is a circus and all the razzled dazzle and noise and bluster- all the unrepressed hates and resenstment- the sense of being 'on the team'- has blinded many to the bigger picture- flash and razzle dazzle-- But some day, somebody is going to have to answer to these people- and hating the Shinawatras-= driving them from the land- won't pay for the truck- won't guarantee equal treatment under the law- won't erradicate the middle man, the loan shark.

Thais now expect governments to take an interest in their lives the way that they hadn't till Thaksin rolled up. That's not going to change- and Suthep/Abhisit is going to have to make some clear policy statements once the fireworks are quiet-

Maybe you should invest in a TV set...these modern things are now very cheap and all your questions are answered there life from the protesters a 1000 times already.

Suthep promised to pay the outstanding money immediately as soon as possible if he has a word....That is a benefit for the Isaan farmer, or?

The farmer themself openly tell that Abhisits system was way better. It was less money, but it was paid DIRECT to them, without any middle man on their account, so they got it in full and immediately. (One problem is that they have to sell the document for the money for less than it is worth because they need the money now and not in 6 month).

And with less corruption of course there is more money for everyone.......

[Crushdepth]

" I am here to protect democracy. If I resign, there will be a vacuum which paves the way for an abolition of the Constitution and [bringing in] an undemocratic system. I have to protect democracy in my capacity as leader of the government. "

Nonsense from beginning to end. A vacuum is what we have right here and right now. And the constitution is the very instrument that will deal with it. The constitution states that if a parliamentary quorum is not achieved by March 4, the administration folds, and the constitution takes over with the process that follows. Either she steps down now or on March 4 is entirely up to her, but after that the constitution doesn't give her a choice. What she is protecting first and foremost is Thaksin. Thaksin is the only reason she is prime minister, and Thaksin is the only reason she is staying. And instead of going to the province of Saraburi today, why didn't she go to Trat ? Why didn't she go to Ratchaprason ? Is this the example she is setting as prime minister ? Is this how she bonds with the Thai people after such unspeakable crimes against humanity ?

Great post. This is all about Thaksin. Anyone who thinks it isn't, is fooling themselves.

Yes in a sense you are correct.

Thaksin sought to modernize the economy. This involved financially empowering the farmers-- but the real goal (if the history of other countries emerging from the stranglehold of feudal economics is anything to go by) he threatened to open the playing field for 'new capitalists' (you recall of course, the hatred of the PAD for 'capitalism'- which seems strange considering that many of its supporters were very wealthy- but it was the wealth of the hereditary monopoly- not the dog eat dog darwinian struggle that modern capitalism entails.

Back in the 80s it was said that about 12 families controlled the entire economy of the country- More than any one person- Thaksin threatened that system. And in so doing brought the farmers along in order to obtain the votes needed to bring Thailand into the twentieth century.

All the crap about his corruption (do you honestly think Thais hate corruption? That suthep hates corruption?) is pablum tossed to people who can't understand t he bigger picture (like many on this board) the real issue is a marked change in the economic and political power structures of the country- the old is being challenged by the new- and that never goes down easily.

A lot of Thais are genuinely fed up with corruption, this was one of the main reasons people turned out to protest, didn't vote or voted no/informally. Most people will acknowledge corruption as a problem even if they take part in it. If you're at the bottom if the pile it can be very difficult to say no.

Thai culture still contains very strong elements of feudalism and patronage networks are an indispensable part of daily life. Thaksin is part of that system and cultivates his networks like hell. He's not trying to dismantle the system, he's trying to monopolise it.

Sent from somewhere in the Pacific

[blaze]

" I am here to protect democracy. If I resign, there will be a vacuum which paves the way for an abolition of the Constitution and [bringing in] an undemocratic system. I have to protect democracy in my capacity as leader of the government. "

Nonsense from beginning to end. A vacuum is what we have right here and right now. And the constitution is the very instrument that will deal with it. The constitution states that if a parliamentary quorum is not achieved by March 4, the administration folds, and the constitution takes over with the process that follows. Either she steps down now or on March 4 is entirely up to her, but after that the constitution doesn't give her a choice. What she is protecting first and foremost is Thaksin. Thaksin is the only reason she is prime minister, and Thaksin is the only reason she is staying. And instead of going to the province of Saraburi today, why didn't she go to Trat ? Why didn't she go to Ratchaprason ? Is this the example she is setting as prime minister ? Is this how she bonds with the Thai people after such unspeakable crimes against humanity ?

Great post. This is all about Thaksin. Anyone who thinks it isn't, is fooling themselves.

Yes in a sense you are correct.

Thaksin sought to modernize the economy. This involved financially empowering the farmers-- but the real goal (if the history of other countries emerging from the stranglehold of feudal economics is anything to go by) he threatened to open the playing field for 'new capitalists' (you recall of course, the hatred of the PAD for 'capitalism'- which seems strange considering that many of its supporters were very wealthy- but it was the wealth of the hereditary monopoly- not the dog eat dog darwinian struggle that modern capitalism entails.

Back in the 80s it was said that about 12 families controlled the entire economy of the country- More than any one person- Thaksin threatened that system. And in so doing brought the farmers along in order to obtain the votes needed to bring Thailand into the twentieth century.

All the crap about his corruption (do you honestly think Thais hate corruption? That suthep hates corruption?) is pablum tossed to people who can't understand t he bigger picture (like many on this board) the real issue is a marked change in the economic and political power structures of the country- the old is being challenged by the new- and that never goes down easily.

You've fallen for the red propaganda too then? If what you are saying is true, that Thais aren't bothered about corruption, why are there so many fed up to the back teeth of it and thinking enough is enough. If Thaksin wants to distribute the wealth to the poor folk, why are they still poor and he is a multi billionaire?

Why have their been so many deals to benefit the poor folk in Isaan, where the goods and money don't appear but end up with the middle men and higher? He might be battling the ruling Elite but he doesn't give one monkey's about the poor and their needs, only their votes, to fuel his power and ego. If not, why doesn't he pay the farmers out of his own pocket? Why doesn't he pull himself away from this power trip? He has his riches now, he could just walk away, but he doesn't. It's all about power and money, can't you see that? This isn't about democracy, this is about power. Open your eyes. If he really cared about democracy why did he try and force through the Amnesty bill which benefits him and prevents his party getting done for the rice scam.

Uh-= no red propaganda does not refer to open market darwinian capitalism. In fact, a lot of it is opposed to my analysis and prefers to see the conflict as 'class' based

Mine is based on having studied the conflicts that arise in all post feudal societies as old money (landed gentry, aristocracy) is threatened by new money (capitalists, international entrepeneurs etc). As well as an understanding of the way that the system of patronage - not comptetition- permeated all aspects of Thai economic life till recently (and still does to a considerable extent).

And it may be wrong- maybe the old Marxist analysis is better- a class struggle- but I don't think that's what it is (despite what the western press would have us believe).

But the notion that the conflict boils down to the fact that there is corruption in this gov't-= well, you would have to provide ONE instance. Just one- where a sitting member of this gov't has been convicted. This might be the cleanest gov't that thailand has ever known- because this gov't, like none before it, is under a microscope.

But taking your point- that it is about corruption- can I assume that all these small business owners supporting the protest pay their proper share of taxes? Don't offer bribes to traffic cops to avoid court dates? Or is it just raw hypocricy from beginning to end- a sanctimonious self righteous party.

Or is corruption the part of the law that some Thais are trotting out to hit thaksin and his kin with in order to protect something much greater than the sterling reputation of Thais as the world's least coarrupt people

[ianf]

"She expressed condolences to the families of victims and those injured in the violent incidents and said police were ordered to find the culprits.

Ms Yingluck visited an OTOP (One Tambon One Product) shopping complex in Saraburi today only to encounter a protest by PDRC supporters who verbally attacked her using a loudspeaker. She left the scene after a brief visit."

Reads as: "Sorry 'bout that, I'm going shopping now". **Smile Wave Smile Wave**

Does it really read as that? Instead of wasting bandwidth why don't you come up with a solution to Thailand's problems instead of writing silly unfounded comments

That goes for most of the TV posters who like to air their views, not one has come up with a sensible solution since these political problems have started

Yes, there is but one sensible solution. Thailand has been in this state of turmoil ever since Thaksin got the taste for money and power. Just look at the history. Ignore the posts from ideologues siding with Thaksin's family. In any political conflict there are those that do not understand the agenda; there are sycophants who love strong-armed power and need that kind of leadership; there are those that don't give a monkey's cuss about human rights; there are those that believe the media even though the media may have their own agenda. There are plenty of these types here on TV. But there is just one immediate solution: Tell the Shinawatras to get the hell out of it. Yingluck will be relieved, her brother will be desolated. The rest of the family only care about the enormous wealth that Thaksin has blagged out of the country.

However and sadly, there will always be conflict here but the genie is now out of the bottle in so far as people will now stand up and question these criminals that run this country. True democracy here will be hard to achieve after all the damage that the Shins have created. So it is a long term project. Education starts in school and I would like to see good civic tuition in schools from a young age. Thais must understand that:

1. Because someone has more money than them it doesn't mean that they are 'better'

2. Democracy cannot be upheld unless there is a rule of law. That means if the law says wear a motorcycle helmet then wear it. That goes for farangs too.

3. Corruption at every level must come to a complete stop.

4. The education system must teach kids to think, not simply repeat without question.

5. Families must teach their kids to think, not simply obey without question.

6. Loss of face should be outlawed!!!!!!!

7. The police should uphold the law, not own it.

8. Politicians should be chosen from a wider spectrum of society - not just those who have been to university

9. Political parties should offer policies that benefit the country, not bribes to win votes.

10. Thaksin is an autocrat, not a democrat. Everyone of his actions support this statement and people should be made to understand this! This will teach them why they have to change their attitudes.

Make no mistake: If Thaksin and his thugs come to power, it will signal the end of any possibility of democracy. Thailand will be faced with years of dictatorship rules by this family: Look at Burma, Zimbabwe, Iraq and the Philippines under Marcos and you will understand just what damage one sociopathic leader can create. Thaksin is that same dictator in waiting.

[blaze]

" I am here to protect democracy. If I resign, there will be a vacuum which paves the way for an abolition of the Constitution and [bringing in] an undemocratic system. I have to protect democracy in my capacity as leader of the government. "

Nonsense from beginning to end. A vacuum is what we have right here and right now. And the constitution is the very instrument that will deal with it. The constitution states that if a parliamentary quorum is not achieved by March 4, the administration folds, and the constitution takes over with the process that follows. Either she steps down now or on March 4 is entirely up to her, but after that the constitution doesn't give her a choice. What she is protecting first and foremost is Thaksin. Thaksin is the only reason she is prime minister, and Thaksin is the only reason she is staying. And instead of going to the province of Saraburi today, why didn't she go to Trat ? Why didn't she go to Ratchaprason ? Is this the example she is setting as prime minister ? Is this how she bonds with the Thai people after such unspeakable crimes against humanity ?

Great post. This is all about Thaksin. Anyone who thinks it isn't, is fooling themselves.

Yes in a sense you are correct.

Thaksin sought to modernize the economy. This involved financially empowering the farmers-- but the real goal (if the history of other countries emerging from the stranglehold of feudal economics is anything to go by) he threatened to open the playing field for 'new capitalists' (you recall of course, the hatred of the PAD for 'capitalism'- which seems strange considering that many of its supporters were very wealthy- but it was the wealth of the hereditary monopoly- not the dog eat dog darwinian struggle that modern capitalism entails.

Back in the 80s it was said that about 12 families controlled the entire economy of the country- More than any one person- Thaksin threatened that system. And in so doing brought the farmers along in order to obtain the votes needed to bring Thailand into the twentieth century.

All the crap about his corruption (do you honestly think Thais hate corruption? That suthep hates corruption?) is pablum tossed to people who can't understand t he bigger picture (like many on this board) the real issue is a marked change in the economic and political power structures of the country- the old is being challenged by the new- and that never goes down easily.

Thaksin sought to harness the farmers as a voting block by using populist policies, paid for by others.

Some worked and his PR teams made sure those that did for a time reinforced his intended legend as

friend of the common man versus the horrible elites. Utterly ignoring the fact he was an elite,

a nouveaux riche elite, but no less an elite by the time those farmers heard of him.

The problem remains; He still has that same mind set of social climbing by gaining power,

face and money sans compunctions, is the same mindset he brought into office,

and caused his downfall from office.

Now he has lost face and money, but clawed back some power over the country

and those who put him lower before. But he still has the same mindset; That he hasn't won.

It still colors his maladministration of Thailand through his string of proxies.

He has finally run those populist policy to their logical conclusion, national bankruptcy a

nd a million farmers broke, starving and enraged, and those who he has stepped on, mistreated

or strong armed in his quest for return to the big game are as angry, and they smell his blood in the water.

The opposition doesn't want to TALK to those who have never talked in good faith in the past.

Their negotiating position starts at removal from power of the Thaksin Political Machine.

Once it is done, those in PTP and other hangers on of the liege lords coat tails who walk away,

will eventually be rehabilitated and returned to the fold in the classic Thai way. Shin clan likely excepted.

They have seen what happens when the hydra is left with one snake left, and it isn't pretty.

But as usual Thaksin is incapable under stress of seeing that things have gone too far and

that he has over reached again, and so he just keeps pushing, no matter the cost to others,

because others really don't matter to him, not compared to his lost face, money and power.

Until you got into Thaksin's 'mindset' I would have agreed with what most of what you said. The way history unfolds has very little to do with the 'mindsets' of the major players- the dynamics of social and economic history create the players. Not the other way around. As far as Thaksin being of the 'neauveau Riche-' did you read my post before you replied to it? This is precisely the conflict- new money fighting for a place at the table with old money without having to play the kow tow game. And old money using all its old tools (connections, the civil service etc) to prevent this 'arriviste' invasion.

If it had not been Thaksin, it would have been someone else- and reasons to demonize that person in the minds of those less educated would be trotted out-- And the best example was the 'new money' of continental Europe after the destruction of the feudal system-- and who represented that urban middle class threat to the strangle hold of the old aristocracies? (hint- they were accused of drinking the blood of Christian babies- at least Thaksin has yet to be accused of THAT).

Edited February 24, 2014 by blaze

[geriatrickid]

dialog? She should resign...no need to speak, no need to have any other Shinawatra instead of her as PM...

Uhh, did you miss the election? The government said to the people, you can choose a new government at the ballot box. Suthep, and Abhisit did not agree with the election.

[chooka]

I hope Suthep will talk to her to hopefully save any other children from being killed. Any meeting should be recorded so neither side can lie about what was said in the meeting.

If Suthep and his little mob are as peaceful and nice as they say then what is the problem with talking. Stop the Violence Suthep and sit down at the table and save a few lives. You have the invitation prove who you say you are and talk or bugger off.

[daboyz1]

" I am here to protect democracy. If I resign, there will be a vacuum which paves the way for an abolition of the Constitution and [bringing in] an undemocratic system. I have to protect democracy in my capacity as leader of the government. "

Nonsense from beginning to end. A vacuum is what we have right here and right now. And the constitution is the very instrument that will deal with it. The constitution states that if a parliamentary quorum is not achieved by March 4, the administration folds, and the constitution takes over with the process that follows. Either she steps down now or on March 4 is entirely up to her, but after that the constitution doesn't give her a choice. What she is protecting first and foremost is Thaksin. Thaksin is the only reason she is prime minister, and Thaksin is the only reason she is staying. And instead of going to the province of Saraburi today, why didn't she go to Trat ? Why didn't she go to Ratchaprason ? Is this the example she is setting as prime minister ? Is this how she bonds with the Thai people after such unspeakable crimes against humanity ?

Great post. This is all about Thaksin. Anyone who thinks it isn't, is fooling themselves.

Yes in a sense you are correct.

Thaksin sought to modernize the economy. This involved financially empowering the farmers-- but the real goal (if the history of other countries emerging from the stranglehold of feudal economics is anything to go by) he threatened to open the playing field for 'new capitalists' (you recall of course, the hatred of the PAD for 'capitalism'- which seems strange considering that many of its supporters were very wealthy- but it was the wealth of the hereditary monopoly- not the dog eat dog darwinian struggle that modern capitalism entails.

Back in the 80s it was said that about 12 families controlled the entire economy of the country- More than any one person- Thaksin threatened that system. And in so doing brought the farmers along in order to obtain the votes needed to bring Thailand into the twentieth century.

All the crap about his corruption (do you honestly think Thais hate corruption? That suthep hates corruption?) is pablum tossed to people who can't understand t he bigger picture (like many on this board) the real issue is a marked change in the economic and political power structures of the country- the old is being challenged by the new- and that never goes down easily.

If Thaksin is this great leader, then why hasn't he come back to face the charges against him? People say they are politically motivated, but who is running the country? His very own clone. Why did he have his allies push for his amnesty when he knew full well what the result would be? As far as "financially empowering" the farmers, you don't do that by giving them handouts, which is exaclty what he did. You know the whole thing about teach a man to fish vs. giving him a fish? Thaksin gave them the proverbial fish and they think that's great. Nevermind that he was stealing billions while handing out these "fish" I wonder how much better off they would be if he had instituted policies to help them, help themselves, rather than just blatant vote buying?

If he's this great man, why hasn't he kept his word to stay out of politics? I'm sorry you can't see it, but Thaksin doesn't care about anyone other than Thaksin. He doesn't even care about his own sister.

[ginjag]

dialog? She should resign...no need to speak, no need to have any other Shinawatra instead of her as PM...

Uhh, did you miss the election? The government said to the people, you can choose a new government at the ballot box. Suthep, and Abhisit did not agree with the election.

You forgot to tell us why, not a one sided view. You know the rest though you have been around long enough. You have the denial problem.

I can see why Yingluck wanted the ballot box quickly . You are also aware she had a good chance of pulling off a win to scramble through the still sleeping amnesty ?? and also have a chance of putting pressure on the court who were looking into many a scandal. and the rest.

Pity again Abhisit /Suthep spoiled the quickie, but they were not alone were they ???

[SICHONSTEVE]

Is there an end to it all? She keeps saying she will not step down, the other side keeps saying they don't want to talk to her. Will this ever end? This has gotten boring now. Same news reports every day, same comments here from the two sides.

And meanwhile, people keep getting killed. Why aren't the powers above intervening?

Because god isn't a Buddhist!!!

[animatic]

blaze #49

Until you got into Thaksin's 'mindset' I would have agreed with what most of what you said. The way history unfolds has very little to do with the 'mindsets' of the major players- the dynamics of social and economic history create the players. Not the other way around. As far as Thaksin being of the 'neauveau Riche-' did you read my post before you replied to it? This is precisely the conflict- new money fighting for a place at the table with old money without having to play the kow tow game. And old money using all its old tools (connections, the civil service etc) to prevent this 'arriviste' invasion.

If it had not been Thaksin, it would have been someone else- and reasons to demonize that person in the minds of those less educated would be trotted out-- And the best example was the 'new money' of continental Europe after the destruction of the feudal system-- and who represented that urban middle class threat to the strangle hold of the old aristocracies? (hint- they were accused of drinking the blood of Christian babies- at least Thaksin has yet to be accused of THAT).

Thaksin's whole mindset is driven by Kow Tow.

He uses modern tools but his mindset is old school Thai social climbing kow tow.

You can see it at EVERY stage of his life.

[ChrisY1]

" I am here to protect democracy. If I resign, there will be a vacuum which paves the way for an abolition of the Constitution and [bringing in] an undemocratic system. I have to protect democracy in my capacity as leader of the government. "

Nonsense from beginning to end. A vacuum is what we have right here and right now. And the constitution is the very instrument that will deal with it. The constitution states that if a parliamentary quorum is not achieved by March 4, the administration folds, and the constitution takes over with the process that follows. Either she steps down now or on March 4 is entirely up to her, but after that the constitution doesn't give her a choice. What she is protecting first and foremost is Thaksin. Thaksin is the only reason she is prime minister, and Thaksin is the only reason she is staying. And instead of going to the province of Saraburi today, why didn't she go to Trat ? Why didn't she go to Ratchaprason ? Is this the example she is setting as prime minister ? Is this how she bonds with the Thai people after such unspeakable crimes against humanity ?

Great post. This is all about Thaksin. Anyone who thinks it isn't, is fooling themselves.

Yes in a sense you are correct.

Thaksin sought to modernize the economy. This involved financially empowering the farmers-- but the real goal (if the history of other countries emerging from the stranglehold of feudal economics is anything to go by) he threatened to open the playing field for 'new capitalists' (you recall of course, the hatred of the PAD for 'capitalism'- which seems strange considering that many of its supporters were very wealthy- but it was the wealth of the hereditary monopoly- not the dog eat dog darwinian struggle that modern capitalism entails.

Back in the 80s it was said that about 12 families controlled the entire economy of the country- More than any one person- Thaksin threatened that system. And in so doing brought the farmers along in order to obtain the votes needed to bring Thailand into the twentieth century.

All the crap about his corruption (do you honestly think Thais hate corruption? That suthep hates corruption?) is pablum tossed to people who can't understand t he bigger picture (like many on this board) the real issue is a marked change in the economic and political power structures of the country- the old is being challenged by the new- and that never goes down easily.

If Thaksin is this great leader, then why hasn't he come back to face the charges against him? People say they are politically motivated, but who is running the country? His very own clone. Why did he have his allies push for his amnesty when he knew full well what the result would be? As far as "financially empowering" the farmers, you don't do that by giving them handouts, which is exaclty what he did. You know the whole thing about teach a man to fish vs. giving him a fish? Thaksin gave them the proverbial fish and they think that's great. Nevermind that he was stealing billions while handing out these "fish" I wonder how much better off they would be if he had instituted policies to help them, help themselves, rather than just blatant vote buying?

If he's this great man, why hasn't he kept his word to stay out of politics? I'm sorry you can't see it, but Thaksin doesn't care about anyone other than Thaksin. He doesn't even care about his own sister.

Good post......correct in defining Thaksin as caring only about himself.....his little sister is now going to face a murder charge..along with his mate, Chalerm. BP just reported.

Lets wait and see if he has something to say now.....although I think a long wait!

He's a coward through and through!

[blaze]

" I am here to protect democracy. If I resign, there will be a vacuum which paves the way for an abolition of the Constitution and [bringing in] an undemocratic system. I have to protect democracy in my capacity as leader of the government. "

Nonsense from beginning to end. A vacuum is what we have right here and right now. And the constitution is the very instrument that will deal with it. The constitution states that if a parliamentary quorum is not achieved by March 4, the administration folds, and the constitution takes over with the process that follows. Either she steps down now or on March 4 is entirely up to her, but after that the constitution doesn't give her a choice. What she is protecting first and foremost is Thaksin. Thaksin is the only reason she is prime minister, and Thaksin is the only reason she is staying. And instead of going to the province of Saraburi today, why didn't she go to Trat ? Why didn't she go to Ratchaprason ? Is this the example she is setting as prime minister ? Is this how she bonds with the Thai people after such unspeakable crimes against humanity ?

Great post. This is all about Thaksin. Anyone who thinks it isn't, is fooling themselves.

Yes in a sense you are correct.

Thaksin sought to modernize the economy. This involved financially empowering the farmers-- but the real goal (if the history of other countries emerging from the stranglehold of feudal economics is anything to go by) he threatened to open the playing field for 'new capitalists' (you recall of course, the hatred of the PAD for 'capitalism'- which seems strange considering that many of its supporters were very wealthy- but it was the wealth of the hereditary monopoly- not the dog eat dog darwinian struggle that modern capitalism entails.

Back in the 80s it was said that about 12 families controlled the entire economy of the country- More than any one person- Thaksin threatened that system. And in so doing brought the farmers along in order to obtain the votes needed to bring Thailand into the twentieth century.

All the crap about his corruption (do you honestly think Thais hate corruption? That suthep hates corruption?) is pablum tossed to people who can't understand t he bigger picture (like many on this board) the real issue is a marked change in the economic and political power structures of the country- the old is being challenged by the new- and that never goes down easily.

If Thaksin is this great leader, then why hasn't he come back to face the charges against him? People say they are politically motivated, but who is running the country? His very own clone. Why did he have his allies push for his amnesty when he knew full well what the result would be? As far as "financially empowering" the farmers, you don't do that by giving them handouts, which is exaclty what he did. You know the whole thing about teach a man to fish vs. giving him a fish? Thaksin gave them the proverbial fish and they think that's great. Nevermind that he was stealing billions while handing out these "fish" I wonder how much better off they would be if he had instituted policies to help them, help themselves, rather than just blatant vote buying?

If he's this great man, why hasn't he kept his word to stay out of politics? I'm sorry you can't see it, but Thaksin doesn't care about anyone other than Thaksin. He doesn't even care about his own sister.

You have totally missed my point- which is fine- One last attempt- Thaksin used the farmers, through populist policies (which EVERY successful political party in the world indulges in) in order to attain political power. But his real goal- I THINK- was not socialist- but in fact, capitalist- With political power he would be able to break the system of patronage and hierarchy that has characterized the Thai economic and political structures and to create in Thailand something more like modern, western free wheeling capitalism- where the strong and innovative survive- and connections mean little.

I never said he was a great leader- you looking for a straw man? Look elsewhere.

[SoilSpoil]

I hope Suthep will talk to her to hopefully save any other children from being killed. Any meeting should be recorded so neither side can lie about what was said in the meeting.

If Suthep and his little mob are as peaceful and nice as they say then what is the problem with talking. Stop the Violence Suthep and sit down at the table and save a few lives. You have the invitation prove who you say you are and talk or bugger off.

The moment the Yingluck government betrayed the people of Thailand (and her mandate) by rushing through an amnesty bill that would benefit her brother and affect 25000 other corruption cases, and the moment the Yingluck administration ignored all national and international warning calls about the failure and rampant corruption in the rice scam, now that was the moment that talking became useless. There is no middle ground her! Her administration and the entire network up to local level had their snouts in this organized theft. They will never give up and face responsibility and justice.

She has only one choice to make now, will she step down and let justice run its course or will she await the same fate as Yanukovych?

She is history, but doesn't realize it yet and that's exactly what makes this all so dangerous!

Edited February 24, 2014 by SoilSpoil

[bubblegum]

"She expressed condolences to the families of victims and those injured in the violent incidents and said police were ordered to find the culprits.

Ms Yingluck visited an OTOP (One Tambon One Product) shopping complex in Saraburi today only to encounter a protest by PDRC supporters who verbally attacked her using a loudspeaker. She left the scene after a brief visit."

Reads as: "Sorry 'bout that, I'm going shopping now". **Smile Wave Smile Wave**

Does it really read as that? Instead of wasting bandwidth why don't you come up with a solution to Thailand's problems instead of writing silly unfounded comments

That goes for most of the TV posters who like to air their views, not one has come up with a sensible solution since these political problems have started

So could YOU please give the solution ! If you can you'll be the next PM. Think about it 2 years filling your pockets and a free ride to Dubai !

[Baerboxer]

One side asks for negotiations and condemns violence. The other side refuses to stray from its obstinate agenda and openly praises armed assailants and taunts opponents.

You must have missed the red shirt leaders and their few thousand supporters celebrating the violence and deaths of innocents.

Celebrating the murder of children so they won't grow up and be against the red shirt backed Shin clan regime, and openly stating so.

Don't recall the caretaker. PM/DM, any of her caretaker cabinet or caddy condemning such vile sentiments.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Baerboxer