Nose looked down at Lao people

[brewsterbudgen]

In an attempt to prevent the development of a sex trade industry similar to that of Thailand, sexual contact between a Lao national and foreigners is illegal unless the two have been married in accordance with Lao family law. In some cases, the Lao government may not recognize a legal marriage certificate from foreign countries, therefore it is prudent to register the marriage with the Lao embassy prior to entering Laos.

Foreigners who enter into a sexual relationship with a Lao national may be interrogated, detained, arrested and/or jailed. The Lao national can be jailed without trial. Lao police have confiscated passports and imposed fines of up to $5000 USD. As an attempt to enforce this rule, foreigners are not permitted to invite Lao nationals of the opposite sex into their hotel rooms.

maybe why you didn't see a red light district

As someone who's had a Lao girlfriend for the last 4 years, what you describe is a major pain! The last two times I've been to Laos with my GF I've stayed in a local hotel so as not to break the law. That said, her home is a 40 minute motorbike ride from my hotel, and on one night everyone was so drunk I had little choice but to stay with her. Not much happened as although I shared a bed with her, her mother, sister, 3 year old niece were all in the next bed! We had had a drink with the village headman in the afternoon, and he had confirmed that it would be OK for me to stay. I still had a relatively sleepless night as I was anticipating a knock on the door... But it never happened.

I guess marriage is the next step, but the process sounds horrendously complicated and bureaucratic.

[dighambara]

A few points:

The Issan people are not as 'Lao' as you might think. Virtually all Thai/Tai/Dai/Kadai peoples have the same culture with minor variations. Those variations reach from Eastern India to Taiwan. Meaning, that just South of Peking, you might see a Khon Play that is nearly exact as one seen in Bangkok.

As for Thai looking down on Lao - I strongly suspect it was a 19th century war. There was an Invasion from the North, which was being fought by Luang Prabang. The Prince (King) of Luang Prabang called to his cousins in Siam and Vientienne for assistance. SIam sent a large army and together they were beating back the invaders.

Up behind then came an army from Vientienne, carrying the same red flag as Luang Prabang and Siam. Naturally they were thought to be replacements.

However, the Vientienne army began attacking the Allied Army, which now had to fight on two fronts.

Eventually Siam won in the North and turned back to assist Luang Prabang and defeat Vientienne. The capital city was burned, but not sacked. Forts were built across the plain of jars to guard against future Northern invasion and all civilians were moved 40 Km from the Menam Kong on both sides of the river and all villages burned.

We now know that no Northern Army ever reappeared and the unmanned river allowed the French easy access and conquest of Laos.

The Vientienne people are though of as betrayers, because their Prince (King) fought his own people.

Remember, the first 'Sitting King' or Lan Chiang (statue at Taht Luang) renamed himself for his people - 'Sam Sen Thai'...

[Smurkster]

You're missing one huge factor here: the Thaification of the North East. Google that.

As a few posters have correctly pointed out a large percentage of the Isaan region is not of Lao descent but Khmer. You'll also find many of the Korat population (more so the city dwellers) are of a more central Thai orgin, even though they technically live in Isaan; Thais refer to them as Thai-Korat: there is also a specific dialect. Then you have the central Isaan, think Roi Et, Kalasin, Ubon Ratchathani, etc; where you are more likely to find a purer Lao Descent, although you'll also find many people of mixed Lao and Chinese heritage.

Anyway, those of Lao descent in the region were subject to Thaification, which many critics have more apt terms for that I can't mention here for obvious reasons. Thaification was so strong that even those who still speak Lao and know their ancestry is Laotian have been rewired to conveniently forget the truth and embrace Thaihood to the point that they look down on Lao people.

I'm somewhat aware of "Thaification" The process started after Rama III put down the Lao Rebellion in 1828 (same time the Thai stole the Emerald from the Lao). Lao Culture was subjugated in favor of an all encompassing "Thai Culture" more aptly put "Siamese" or Central Thai. I also know that before the Lao rebellion Isan was very sparsely populated, the people of Isan today were forcibly relocated from the Eastern side of the Mekong to the Western part (modern Isan). I agree with you that many Isan people, who know very well that their ancestry is Lao, have been led to believe (or really to want to believe) that they are "Thai" or and have some disdain when being coupled together with "Lao" from Laos proper.....

however, all this being said, I did study Lao at a language school in Vientiane for about 3 months before I ever lived in Thailand and never did formally study Thai....(if I try to speak my crappy Thai in Bangkok, I have always garnered funny looks) I have been in Isan with a westerner who spoke very fluent Thai and with my much more limited Lao in comparison, I was the one who seemed to break the ice with the locals much more than my Fluent Thai speaking friend, so that does go to show that in many ways, the natives in Isan are much more comfortable, warmer with a Lao speaker (Isan, if you really want to be picky) than a Thai speaker, at least from my personal experience, I am not talking about everyone here. My wife has also visited Lao with me many times and attests that for the most part the language is 95% the same, except a few notable words: The Lao word for book is "Peum" and even Isan people use "Nang Seu" Lao also call their bicycle "Lot Thip" (apparently Southern Thais also use this word_....just a few examples if anyone is interested

Edited March 4, 2014 by Smurkster

[Ubonquest]

Sure, I did miss that, the Thais living in Buriram, Sisaket and Surin have a lot of Khmer ancestry, in fact i recently read that in Buriram about 40% could speak Khmer, so with that information I would venture to say that 60-70% are of ethnic Khmers

You can find many only Khmer speaking people for example in Kantharalak, Sisaket province. Then the "Lamduan Festival, held in Sisaket on each second weekend of March.shows a lot about the ancient history.(Khmer, Lao and Sauy).

You'll even find only Khmer speaking people near Uthumphon Phisai/ Sisaket area on the way to Surin.That on the other hand explains so many Cambodian influence.

People in Surin are well -known for chasing elephants in Cambodia. People in the north east only speak "Lao", especially in Sisaket, Ubon, area. which doesn't make them to people from Laos.

http://www.thai.nu/sisaket#.UxLHgeOSzTo

[Ubonquest]

Sure, I did miss that, the Thais living in Buriram, Sisaket and Surin have a lot of Khmer ancestry, in fact i recently read that in Buriram about 40% could speak Khmer, so with that information I would venture to say that 60-70% are of ethnic Khmers

You can find many only Khmer speaking people for example in Kantharalak, Sisaket province. Then the "Lamduan Festival, held in Sisaket on each second weekend of March.shows a lot about the ancient history.(Khmer, Lao and Sauy).

You'll even find only Khmer speaking people near Uthumphon Phisai/ Sisaket area on the way to Surin.That on the other hand explains so many Cambodian influence.

People in Surin are well -known for chasing elephants in Cambodia. People in the north east only speak "Lao", especially in Sisaket, Ubon, area. which doesn't make them to people from Laos.

http://www.thai.nu/sisaket#.UxLHgeOSzTo

People who speak Lao, are descendants of Lao people with Thai nationality.

[Ubonquest]

Sure, I did miss that, the Thais living in Buriram, Sisaket and Surin have a lot of Khmer ancestry, in fact i recently read that in Buriram about 40% could speak Khmer, so with that information I would venture to say that 60-70% are of ethnic Khmers

You can find many only Khmer speaking people for example in Kantharalak, Sisaket province. Then the "Lamduan Festival, held in Sisaket on each second weekend of March.shows a lot about the ancient history.(Khmer, Lao and Sauy).

You'll even find only Khmer speaking people near Uthumphon Phisai/ Sisaket area on the way to Surin.

People in Surin are well -known for chasing elephants in Cambodia. People in the north east only speak "Lao", which doesn't make them to people from Laos.

http://www.thai.nu/sisaket#.UxLHgeOSzTo

Yes, it doesn't make them "to people from Laos'' but modern day Laos as we know it was a French creation, before that the independent Kingdom of Lan Xang was the fore barer to the modern Lao nation and its territory covered the majority of modern Isan and BOTH sides of the Mekong river...they may not be "Lao proper" in the sense that they live in Laos, but yes they are very much "Lao people" one must remember that only 3 million Lao people live in Laos, but 18 million Lao people live in Thailand. Historians generally agree also that if if weren't for the french taking the right bank of the Mekong river in an agreement with King Chulalongkorn, modern Laos would most likely be part of Modern day Thailand, and independent Laos would not exist

I beg to differ. It was the French who had given the left side of the Mekong which is present day Isan, to Thailand, otherwise Isan would have been part of today Laos.

[Emster23]

Seems a fairly common view among Thais is to look down on all foreign countries and their people because they lack the shining gem that is Thai culture and life. Being rather inward looking, they care not to know how the rest of the world is, for them it is enough to know they are Thai and the crown of creation. Not all that uncommon among other nationalities too. My somewhat Nazi sister couldn't believe that not everyone on earth wanted to be an American....

[humqdpf]

In an attempt to prevent the development of a sex trade industry similar to that of Thailand, sexual contact between a Lao national and foreigners is illegal unless the two have been married in accordance with Lao family law. In some cases, the Lao government may not recognize a legal marriage certificate from foreign countries, therefore it is prudent to register the marriage with the Lao embassy prior to entering Laos.

Foreigners who enter into a sexual relationship with a Lao national may be interrogated, detained, arrested and/or jailed. The Lao national can be jailed without trial. Lao police have confiscated passports and imposed fines of up to $5000 USD. As an attempt to enforce this rule, foreigners are not permitted to invite Lao nationals of the opposite sex into their hotel rooms.

maybe why you didn't see a red light district

Actually the law is not written against foreigners but is supposed to be applied to Lao people too. But then, no authority is going to try to apply it to Lao people otherwise it would criminalise huge swathe of the population who are only married in terms of the temple.

The law used to be applied against foreigners in the past but is now seldom applied against foreigners except those who annoy the local headman or police or something like that. At certain times of the year, such as before and during Lao New Year, one may get a tip from the friendly headman or other person in authority to get your Lao girlfriend or boyfriend to move back to the parents for a week or so. But at least in the cities, the days when the local militia show up at 2am to check whether you are fornicating with a Lao national are over.

[fabianfred]

Before they decided to make the River Mekong the border the Luang Prabang area of Laos was Thai and the Fang and ChiangRai area of Thai was Lao.

The Northern Thai Lanna language is very similar to Lao ... ''Lot Thib'' also meaning bicycle .. and much use of L instead of R ... and also much use of H instead of R ..as in Hong Hian instead of Rong Rian.

I agree that the Thai English is the worst in ASEAN. The Burmese study 7 to 8 hours a day and only get a half-hour break for lunch and study English every day...more study less play...we know how that compares with Thai schools.... English a couple of times a week and too much play.

Those Countries which were colonised have certainly some outside influence and knowledge of the World and other Countries ways. The Lao still make their French bread as do the Vietnamese, and still study French. The Burmese are great at English, as are the Indians and Sri Lankans.

I think ALL Countries are guilty of discrimination to other peoples, whether they are outside their borders or minorities within. A sad fact of the modern ego driven World.

I was speaking to a Thai woman who owns a shop yesterday. Upon learning I was English she said 'Oh I would love to live there...why don't you like to live there and choose to stay here?' I said...no way. I have been Buddhist for nearly 40 years and live here because it is a Buddhist Country. In Western Countries they are mostly Christian and you can see that their lives are so confused and mixed up with money as their slaves. They do not know the truth and real purpose of life as Buddhists (should) do because their religion cannot teach what it doesn't know.

[Thai at Heart]

Where I live in Issan the Thais are of Khmer descent not Laotians. Putting that aside the Thais are accused of looking down on the Laotians, Cambodians, Burmese, Malaysians, Northern, Northeastern, Central, Eastern, Southern, Red Shirts, Yellow Shirts. If I missed any one I'm sorry, Trying not to discriminate.

And Bangkok looks down on all, chiangmai, phuket, Rayong, central until you reach ban noork isaan.

[dotpoom]

Your OP was interesting but I think when you gave two examples in the Thai language of what Thai people say about Lao people, it might have made your point more clear if you had translated them into English....I assume most of us on here would not understand the Thai examples you gave. You reminded me of when I was in Morocco and was amazed at how the lighter couriered blacks looked down on other people that were a darker color all the way down the line. I come from a country (at that time) that had not much (except doctors maybe) immigration so we had little experience of racism.

[PEP]

I I was thinking of starting a thread on why the English look down on the French and V.V.

I have personally seen this happen on both sides of the chanel .

[slipperylobster]

Not actually true. For example, my gal has a family connection prior to the extablishment of the Lao border. She can actually speak Lao, but it one hundred percent Thai. She does not really look down at them at all...neither does her family. In fact, they respect the fact that people there are working hard to make money, and not relying on farang husbands, as the Thai ladies do.

[smileydude]

People will always find someone to look down on. Its human nature as it makes us feel better about ourselves and gives us a false sense of superiority. The Thais look down on our SE neighbors. The East Asians look down on all other asians. The US look down on Asia. The Europeans look down on the US. The French look down on everybody?

In the mind of Thai's saying someone is Lao's is a derogatory way of saying you are a country bumpkin, uncouth, uneducated and unworldly because of the geographical and cultural links to areas less developed. Lao's was once colonnized by the French so they have their suave side and because of their lesser mindset of materialism then Thai's are not jumping on the gold digging bandwagon just yet. I like to do onto others as I would like them to do unto me so I prefer to be respectful and avoid generalizations in order to see the best in people. Prejudice clouds the mind and Thai's like everyone have theirs.

Edited March 5, 2014 by smileydude

[djhotsox]

IMO It is simply racism, nothing more nothing less.

Racism stems mainly from ignorance, fear and arrogance.

Racism is taught, it is a learned behaviour (generally from a very young age).

Without proper education, amongst other things, the behaviour will not change.

In my world there is one race. The human race.

[stickylies]

Seems a fairly common view among Thais is to look down on all foreign countries and their people because they lack the shining gem that is Thai culture and life. Being rather inward looking, they care not to know how the rest of the world is, for them it is enough to know they are Thai and the crown of creation. Not all that uncommon among other nationalities too. My somewhat Nazi sister couldn't believe that not everyone on earth wanted to be an American....

agreed. caused by:

1. the lack of critical thinking (i think i posted this 500x yet on TV)

2. lack of proper education (learning about other countries, other cultures, etc) where most local teachers have NEVER been abroad

they were lucky too (or smart or opportunistic, call it what u want). compare post WWII thailand with its neighbours (except for malaysia) and u understand why they think they are HIGHEND/SUBLIME, add to that the fact that most "common" bpama, lao and khmer consider thailand as "paradise" (read: consumer's paradise with big roads and big cars).... so thai get confirmation their country is the greatest.

[thehelmsman]

I look down on everyone equally.

[Berkshire]

Another point I was trying to make and see if anyone had any insights into it. Why with Lao being such a poor country, do the people seem to have a more worldy view on things..( I am not talking about poor farmer Lao') but for instance the Rich "educated" Lao I know are much more familiar with many things international while the rich "educated" not so much

I take it you don't know too many educated Thais. I know plenty, not just rich, but simply middle class folks. They are just as "worldly" as any farang.

[hansnl]

Where I live in Issan the Thais are of Khmer descent not Laotians. Putting that aside the Thais are accused of looking down on the Laotians, Cambodians, Burmese, Malaysians, Northern, Northeastern, Central, Eastern, Southern, Red Shirts, Yellow Shirts. If I missed any one I'm sorry, Trying not to discriminate.

Falang?

[SantiSuk]

In our village the Thai speaking look down on the Lao speaking, and the Lao speaking look down on the Khmer speaking, I know my place.

Farang just below dog but above rat.

Maybe in Patong, Phil. I honestly never get that impression living in Isaan. Maybe I'm deluded

[brewsterbudgen]

In an attempt to prevent the development of a sex trade industry similar to that of Thailand, sexual contact between a Lao national and foreigners is illegal unless the two have been married in accordance with Lao family law. In some cases, the Lao government may not recognize a legal marriage certificate from foreign countries, therefore it is prudent to register the marriage with the Lao embassy prior to entering Laos.

Foreigners who enter into a sexual relationship with a Lao national may be interrogated, detained, arrested and/or jailed. The Lao national can be jailed without trial. Lao police have confiscated passports and imposed fines of up to $5000 USD. As an attempt to enforce this rule, foreigners are not permitted to invite Lao nationals of the opposite sex into their hotel rooms.

maybe why you didn't see a red light district

Actually the law is not written against foreigners but is supposed to be applied to Lao people too. But then, no authority is going to try to apply it to Lao people otherwise it would criminalise huge swathe of the population who are only married in terms of the temple.

The law used to be applied against foreigners in the past but is now seldom applied against foreigners except those who annoy the local headman or police or something like that. At certain times of the year, such as before and during Lao New Year, one may get a tip from the friendly headman or other person in authority to get your Lao girlfriend or boyfriend to move back to the parents for a week or so. But at least in the cities, the days when the local militia show up at 2am to check whether you are fornicating with a Lao national are over.

Cheers. That's good to know.

[elgenon]

Don't the citizens of most countries think their people/ country are/ is the best?

[nottocus]

Don't the citizens of most countries think their people/ country are/ is the best?

I don't. New Zealand is crap.

High tax, high cost of living and low wages.

[Emster23]

"live here because it is a Buddhist Country. In Western Countries they are mostly Christian and you can see that their lives are so confused and mixed up with money as their slaves. They do not know the truth and real purpose of life as Buddhists (should) do because their religion cannot teach what it doesn't know."

"confused and mixed up with money as their slaves" shouldn't it be "Money as their masters"? In my view, this applies more to Thailand than to my home country, USA. I too am Buddhist for decades, and the near total absence of understanding of even the most basic ideas of Buddhism leads me to consider this a Buddhist country in name only. Lottery numbers from monks, trying to get "dispensations" by "making merit", etc. The DMC channel is more bogus than any televangelist I have seen in USA, with same ends. Buddhism here sadly strikes me as "all hat, no cattle".

[Smurkster]

"live here because it is a Buddhist Country. In Western Countries they are mostly Christian and you can see that their lives are so confused and mixed up with money as their slaves. They do not know the truth and real purpose of life as Buddhists (should) do because their religion cannot teach what it doesn't know."

"confused and mixed up with money as their slaves" shouldn't it be "Money as their masters"? In my view, this applies more to Thailand than to my home country, USA. I too am Buddhist for decades, and the near total absence of understanding of even the most basic ideas of Buddhism leads me to consider this a Buddhist country in name only. Lottery numbers from monks, trying to get "dispensations" by "making merit", etc. The DMC channel is more bogus than any televangelist I have seen in USA, with same ends. Buddhism here sadly strikes me as "all hat, no cattle"

Sadly I feel the same way.. claim to be buddhist, go to temple make merit, go through the motions, but really living that way...its a minority...much like those who claim to be christians..

[sirchai]

you farang, are even lower than the lao, even lower than the soi dog

in most thai peoples eyes

even they are dirt poor

My parents in law,wife and son, many colleagues, friends do not see me "as lower as a soi dog." How can you make something like that up?

If you hang out drunk at the local market every day, acting like an animal, then they might have such a feeling regarding you.

Treat people the way you'd like being treated and you won't have such problems. My five baht to your comment.

If you live here, it's time to go back to your country, asap.

[Smurkster]

Sure, I did miss that, the Thais living in Buriram, Sisaket and Surin have a lot of Khmer ancestry, in fact i recently read that in Buriram about 40% could speak Khmer, so with that information I would venture to say that 60-70% are of ethnic Khmers

You can find many only Khmer speaking people for example in Kantharalak, Sisaket province. Then the "Lamduan Festival, held in Sisaket on each second weekend of March.shows a lot about the ancient history.(Khmer, Lao and Sauy).

You'll even find only Khmer speaking people near Uthumphon Phisai/ Sisaket area on the way to Surin.

People in Surin are well -known for chasing elephants in Cambodia. People in the north east only speak "Lao", which doesn't make them to people from Laos.

http://www.thai.nu/sisaket#.UxLHgeOSzTo

Yes, it doesn't make them "to people from Laos'' but modern day Laos as we know it was a French creation, before that the independent Kingdom of Lan Xang was the fore barer to the modern Lao nation and its territory covered the majority of modern Isan and BOTH sides of the Mekong river...they may not be "Lao proper" in the sense that they live in Laos, but yes they are very much "Lao people" one must remember that only 3 million Lao people live in Laos, but 18 million Lao people live in Thailand. Historians generally agree also that if if weren't for the french taking the right bank of the Mekong river in an agreement with King Chulalongkorn, modern Laos would most likely be part of Modern day Thailand, and independent Laos would not exist

I beg to differ. It was the French who had given the left side of the Mekong which is present day Isan, to Thailand, otherwise Isan would have been part of today Laos.

"In July 1893 minor border clashes led to an armed confrontation, with French gunboats sailing up the Chao Phraya to threaten Bangkok. Faced with such threats, Siam capitulated, and France established a protectorate over everything east of the Mekong. French demanded the Siamese king in Bangkok to follow: 1) all lands east of the Mekong River be ceded to French control. .

Such actions known as "gunboat diplomacy"

After the fall of Lan Xang, the territory was broken up into three kingdoms (Vientiane, Luang Prabang and Champassak). These territories were put under Siamese Suzerinity for good following Chao Anou's rebellion in 1828. 50 plus years later when the French were looking for a slice of the pie, King Rama V ceded these territories to appease the French (he would comply with their demands as long as the majority of Siam could remain uncolonized) It was this action that played a very big part of Thailand never being colonized by a foreign power, Chulalongkorn simply played his cards right, but as a compromise he had to give up a portion of his kingdom to the French (Modern Day Laos)

Also, if you google a map of "Siam" the time of Chulalongkorn, (here is a good link...http://www.google.co.th/search?q=Map+of+Rattanakosin+Kingdom&tbm=isch&imgil=f7dMq-C2kChCgM%253A%253Bhttp%253A%252F%252Ft0.gstatic.com%252Fimages%253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9GcSBeahF1pHz0zVDEl7MSgmBzKqYrE4I41U5VBuBpmnwQq59_qSgzg%253B220%253B376%253BulgPQxLwDZircM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fen.wikipedia.org%25252Fwiki%25252FRattanakosin_Kingdom&source=iu&usg=__LB4eDWRywLcfLlZYh9JvsZsQ24I%3D&sa=X&ei=lQoXU5zvIqySiAe--4C4Bg&ved=0CDgQ9QEwAg&biw=1280&bih=722#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=f7dMq-C2kChCgM%253A%3BulgPQxLwDZircM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fupload.wikimedia.org%252Fwikipedia%252Fcommons%252Fthumb%252F4%252F4a%252FEarly_Rattanakosin_Kingdom.png%252F220px-Early_Rattanakosin_Kingdom.png%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fen.wikipedia.org%252Fwiki%252FRattanakosin_Kingdom%3B220%3B376)

you will see that the Rattankosin Kingdom (Siam) included most of modern Cambodia and most of Modern day Laos...so...not to split hairs here, but it was The Siamese who CEDED lands east of the mekong to the French and AT LEAST FROM WHAT I HAVE read NOT the Siamese who ceded lands west of the Mekong to the French......If I am wrong or missing something please, show me something to counterpoint, I would genuinely be interested to see...as I am always trying to learn

Edited March 5, 2014 by Smurkster

[attento]

Don't the citizens of most countries think their people/ country are/ is the best?

Just about every country makes jokes about or denigrates another, often a neighbour.

Sometimes between regions (or racial groups) within a country.

Not defending the practise, but recognising that it is not uniquelyThai/Lao.

[Smurkster]

Don't the citizens of most countries think their people/ country are/ is the best?

Just about every country makes jokes about or denigrates another, often a neighbour.

Sometimes between regions (or racial groups) within a country.

Not defending the practise, but recognising that it is not uniquelyThai/Lao.

Sure it's like my stupid classmates in grade school making jokes about Canadians ( I am American) thinking that Canada was just an extension of America..but really when you get to know Canadians one realizes they are in generally super people and at the end of the day very different from Americans....I love Canada

[djhotsox]

"live here because it is a Buddhist Country. In Western Countries they are mostly Christian and you can see that their lives are so confused and mixed up with money as their slaves. They do not know the truth and real purpose of life as Buddhists (should) do because their religion cannot teach what it doesn't know."

"confused and mixed up with money as their slaves" shouldn't it be "Money as their masters"? In my view, this applies more to Thailand than to my home country, USA. I too am Buddhist for decades, and the near total absence of understanding of even the most basic ideas of Buddhism leads me to consider this a Buddhist country in name only. Lottery numbers from monks, trying to get "dispensations" by "making merit", etc. The DMC channel is more bogus than any televangelist I have seen in USA, with same ends. Buddhism here sadly strikes me as "all hat, no cattle"

Sadly I feel the same way.. claim to be buddhist, go to temple make merit, go through the motions, but really living that way...its a minority...much like those who claim to be christians..

Well why stop there? Let's call a spade a spade, aren't all "organized religions" <deleted>?