Ministry to try homeopathy in Sing Buri to fight dengue

[GentlemanJim]

News just in: some homeopathic medicine may actually be effective:

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2014-03/25/homeopathy-contains-medicine

Just because it may contain a trace amount of something, doesn't mean it's necessarily effective as a cure. Homeopathic 'medicine' if processed correctly is pure water. If it has a trace of something other than water, which is detectable, then it is not homeopathic.

I once went to a metals recycling plant in the US. I showed them a gold coin, but they wanted to test it to see. Their multi-thousand $$ metal detection device came up with readings for: platinum, and and several other metals, ...but no gold. And that was for a 100% gold coin!

So what you are saying is your gold coin is not a gold coin. How does that make you feel, does it hurt?

[boomerangutang]

News just in: some homeopathic medicine may actually be effective:

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2014-03/25/homeopathy-contains-medicine

Just because it may contain a trace amount of something, doesn't mean it's necessarily effective as a cure. Homeopathic 'medicine' if processed correctly is pure water. If it has a trace of something other than water, which is detectable, then it is not homeopathic.

I once went to a metals recycling plant in the US. I showed them a gold coin, but they wanted to test it to see. Their multi-thousand $$ metal detection device came up with readings for: platinum, and and several other metals, ...but no gold. And that was for a 100% gold coin!

So what you are saying is your gold coin is not a gold coin. How does that make you feel, does it hurt?

You missed the point by a mile. The coin was 100% gold. It was the tester which was faulty.

In response to earlier Q: Yes, I read the article. What I wrote afterwards (3 posts above) was my response.

[jdlancaster]

I'm sorry for digging this thread up, but I saw this at my school where I teach English at near Phrae. They were giving them a concoction contaioning Eupatorium perfoliatum, eupafolin, and i believe some other substances. They were giving it for Dengue, and the teachers were calling it a vaccine, most likely due to translation issues and a lack of medical knowledge. I discovered this thread as I went to google the substance and figured I'd waste my lunch writing about it.

First, my background is as a low-level nematologist (only published 2 papers) and a Chemical Officer in the US Army. So, I have a science background, but nothing amazing. I didn't see anyone post any links or cite much so I figured i'd drop what i found from my wasted lunch. I found a few papers:(only took a quick look, but there are many... a proper analysis would take months and I'm not getting paid)

Mareike Maas, Alexandra M. Deters, Andreas Hensel Anti-inflammatory activity of Eupatorium perfoliatum L. extracts, eupafolin, and dimeric guaianolide via iNOS inhibitory activity and modulation of inflammation-related cytokines and chemokines Journal of Ethnopharmacology, Volume 137, Issue 1, 1 September 2011, Pages 371–381 Original Research Article

Eupafolin and Ethyl Acetate Fraction of Kalanchoe gracilis Stem Extract Show Potent Antiviral Activities against Enterovirus 71 and Coxsackievirus A16

Ching-Ying Wang,^{1,2 Shun-Chueh Huang,3 Zhen-Rung Lai,3,4 Yu-Ling Ho,4 Yu-Jen Jou,2,5 Szu-Hao Kung,6 Yongjun Zhang,7 Yuan-Shiun Chang,1 and Cheng-Wen Lin2,8}

Clavin M.L., Redko F., Acevedo C., Martino V., Gorzalczany S. In vivo anti-inflammatory activity and flavonoid identification of medicinal Eupatorium species Pharmacognosy Journal, Volume 5, Issue 2, March 2013, Pages 91-93

Comparative Clinical Study on the Effectiveness of

Homeopathic Combination Remedy with Standard

Maintenance Therapy for Dengue Fever

Syed Saeed-ul-Hassan1, Imran Tariq1*, Ayesha Khalid2 and Sabiha Karim1

My take:

Homeopathy is generally a bunch of quack waste of money remedies, and anecdotal evidence is not evidence. That said, many of our commonly used drugs have been derived from plants, bacteria, fungii,... in other words... nature. It is not some magic... plants have drugs that have a myriad of effects. These are later researched until the active ingredients are identified, isolated, and their method of action is determined. If a plant, or as I hate to say "homeopathic", method works it is due to the drugs in the plant. And, if they do work, they have side effects.... A simple way to show might be the "homeopathic" effects of a cup of coffee, marijuana, compounds in food(think red wine, or even a candy bar for diabetes) or any other drug... Yes, will make you feel better, but can raise your blood pressure etc... Or the "homeopathic" effects of any plant.... I apologize if anyone is too caught up on the name "homeopathy" and feel what I say doesn't meet the definition. I am not saying I support the Thai position on the use of a plant to try to stem the tide.... but I can see how one might find it an attractive option given the cost, Thai culture, and the lack of a vaccine. We must remember it is not only what you can do, but what a population is willing to do/public opinion that determines how to enact a public health initiative.

My hypothesis is that the reduction in Dengue associated deaths and infections may be due to 2 reasons. It is possible that deaths may be reduced due to reduced symptoms from the anti-inflammatory effects of the plants. It also may be possible that less incidences of Dengue are reported due to the anti-inflammatory effects (i.e. reduced symptoms lead to misdiagnosis). I can't speculate on any ant-viral effects as i didn't look that hard at papers, but some papers suggest a correlation... I do not know if they explain any causation (Too busy to read in-depth).

I would say more research should be done to develop a drug from these plants rather than the homeopathic method.... but, that is many years off.

[partington]

I'm sorry for digging this thread up, but I saw this at my school where I teach English at near Phrae. They were giving them a concoction contaioning Eupatorium perfoliatum, eupafolin, and i believe some other substances. They were giving it for Dengue, and the teachers were calling it a vaccine, most likely due to translation issues and a lack of medical knowledge. I discovered this thread as I went to google the substance and figured I'd waste my lunch writing about it.

First, my background is as a low-level nematologist (only published 2 papers) and a Chemical Officer in the US Army. So, I have a science background, but nothing amazing. I didn't see anyone post any links or cite much so I figured i'd drop what i found from my wasted lunch. I found a few papers:(only took a quick look, but there are many... a proper analysis would take months and I'm not getting paid)

Mareike Maas, Alexandra M. Deters, Andreas Hensel Anti-inflammatory activity of Eupatorium perfoliatum L. extracts, eupafolin, and dimeric guaianolide via iNOS inhibitory activity and modulation of inflammation-related cytokines and chemokines Journal of Ethnopharmacology, Volume 137, Issue 1, 1 September 2011, Pages 371–381 Original Research Article

Eupafolin and Ethyl Acetate Fraction of Kalanchoe gracilis Stem Extract Show Potent Antiviral Activities against Enterovirus 71 and Coxsackievirus A16

Ching-Ying Wang,^{1,2 Shun-Chueh Huang,3 Zhen-Rung Lai,3,4 Yu-Ling Ho,4 Yu-Jen Jou,2,5 Szu-Hao Kung,6 Yongjun Zhang,7 Yuan-Shiun Chang,1 and Cheng-Wen Lin2,8}

Clavin M.L., Redko F., Acevedo C., Martino V., Gorzalczany S. In vivo anti-inflammatory activity and flavonoid identification of medicinal Eupatorium species Pharmacognosy Journal, Volume 5, Issue 2, March 2013, Pages 91-93

Comparative Clinical Study on the Effectiveness of

Homeopathic Combination Remedy with Standard

Maintenance Therapy for Dengue Fever

Syed Saeed-ul-Hassan1, Imran Tariq1*, Ayesha Khalid2 and Sabiha Karim1

My take:

Homeopathy is generally a bunch of quack waste of money remedies, and anecdotal evidence is not evidence. That said, many of our commonly used drugs have been derived from plants, bacteria, fungii,... in other words... nature. It is not some magic... plants have drugs that have a myriad of effects. These are later researched until the active ingredients are identified, isolated, and their method of action is determined. If a plant, or as I hate to say "homeopathic", method works it is due to the drugs in the plant. And, if they do work, they have side effects.... A simple way to show might be the "homeopathic" effects of a cup of coffee, marijuana, compounds in food(think red wine, or even a candy bar for diabetes) or any other drug... Yes, will make you feel better, but can raise your blood pressure etc... Or the "homeopathic" effects of any plant.... I apologize if anyone is too caught up on the name "homeopathy" and feel what I say doesn't meet the definition. I am not saying I support the Thai position on the use of a plant to try to stem the tide.... but I can see how one might find it an attractive option given the cost, Thai culture, and the lack of a vaccine. We must remember it is not only what you can do, but what a population is willing to do/public opinion that determines how to enact a public health initiative.

My hypothesis is that the reduction in Dengue associated deaths and infections may be due to 2 reasons. It is possible that deaths may be reduced due to reduced symptoms from the anti-inflammatory effects of the plants. It also may be possible that less incidences of Dengue are reported due to the anti-inflammatory effects (i.e. reduced symptoms lead to misdiagnosis). I can't speculate on any ant-viral effects as i didn't look that hard at papers, but some papers suggest a correlation... I do not know if they explain any causation (Too busy to read in-depth).

I would say more research should be done to develop a drug from these plants rather than the homeopathic method.... but, that is many years off.

You are entirely missing the point about homeopathy. It is NOT simply using plants as a source of a compound which can have beneficial effects.

This would simply be a drug treatment by another name.

The point of homeopathy, and why it is so ridiculous, is that the plant extract is sequentially diluted to the point where a simple calculation shows there is not a single molecule of any active compound left in the volume given. The dose is pure water.

This is why it doesn't work and why homeopaths have had to make up the "hypothesis" (excuse) that water can have a "memory" of molecules it once contained. If this were true, incidentally, any water out of any tap would be a homeopathic treatment for almost every disease.

You are also trying to explain beneficial effects for which there is no evidence at all. In the original article there were no reports of fewer deaths, and merely the listing of numbers of cases of the disease in two groups, one "treated" with the homeopathic remedy, and one not.

From the reported figures there was no difference statistically by chi-squared test between the two groups. Therefore there is no effect to explain except that bad science produces bad health strategies.

[h90]

Anyone with even a modicum of scientific knowledge knows that homoeopathy is bunkum. So, the question must be, who profits from the sale of the so-called "medicine"?

Well it is an excellent medicine against empty wallets for pharmacists.

1x nothing in water or sugar = 200 Baht.....That deserves the nobel price in economic....

[jdlancaster]

Partington.... I think you are missing the point.

1. This thread is about one specific treatment and I stated that most homeopathy is quacks making money.

2. You didn't read any of the articles I posted. One I read even posts blood cell count levels with there p values stated. There are also many studies that led to the thais choosing this treatment.

3. And what I saw my students was not diluted to an extreme amount.... it came from a concentrate. Many medicines are highly diluted to extreme orders of magnitude. Many in nano or picogram levels.

4. You're taking your data from a news story. ... a story with only preliminary results. .... they didn't decide to use it based on that data. They decided based on the data you did not read. The news story is for common people.And the results they posted are to convince thai people. .. not scientists. I saw many people ask to see just one peer reviewed scientific journal article.... I supplied

4. Science is rarely cut and dry.... many subjects have papers on both sides with results show positive and negative. Read more than a news article and a weak journal article that posts about results in thailand. They used the thai data to get thai people and readers attention.

[jdlancaster]

http://www.cdc.gov/malaria/about/history/ To make this easy I will give an example of two plants that were used similarly to fight malaria from a lay source..... the cdc. The first is quinqina calisaya and the second was artemisia annua. The first was used in south America as folk(homeopathy) medicine for malaria.... it is where we first got quinine.... and later led to our development of other quinine based drugs. The second was used in China and is where we get artemisian based drugs. It was only isolated in the 1970s. Now we are developing other artemisian based drugs..... artemisian based drugs are used against current drug resistant form of malaria. These are two examples. The thai government has the choice of doing this that might help..... or doing nothing. ..

[jdlancaster]

Oh and those beneficial effects were listed in papers I posted.... maas et al 2011 and clavin et al 2013 found antiinflammatory effects... It has action on cytokines!

[ClutchClark]

Breakbone fever is no fun.

Would hate to see a child with it.

Currently no known vaccine or cure so whats the harm in trying this?

Edited July 1, 2014 by ClutchClark

[ClutchClark]

I'm sorry for digging this thread up, but I saw this at my school where I teach English at near Phrae. They were giving them a concoction contaioning Eupatorium perfoliatum, eupafolin, and i believe some other substances. They were giving it for Dengue, and the teachers were calling it a vaccine, most likely due to translation issues and a lack of medical knowledge. I discovered this thread as I went to google the substance and figured I'd waste my lunch writing about it.

First, my background is as a low-level nematologist (only published 2 papers) and a Chemical Officer in the US Army. So, I have a science background, but nothing amazing. I didn't see anyone post any links or cite much so I figured i'd drop what i found from my wasted lunch. I found a few papers:(only took a quick look, but there are many... a proper analysis would take months and I'm not getting paid)

Mareike Maas, Alexandra M. Deters, Andreas Hensel Anti-inflammatory activity of Eupatorium perfoliatum L. extracts, eupafolin, and dimeric guaianolide via iNOS inhibitory activity and modulation of inflammation-related cytokines and chemokines Journal of Ethnopharmacology, Volume 137, Issue 1, 1 September 2011, Pages 371381 Original Research Article

Eupafolin and Ethyl Acetate Fraction of Kalanchoe gracilis Stem Extract Show Potent Antiviral Activities against Enterovirus 71 and Coxsackievirus A16

Ching-Ying Wang,^{1,2 Shun-Chueh Huang,3 Zhen-Rung Lai,3,4 Yu-Ling Ho,4 Yu-Jen Jou,2,5 Szu-Hao Kung,6 Yongjun Zhang,7 Yuan-Shiun Chang,1 and Cheng-Wen Lin2,8}

Clavin M.L., Redko F., Acevedo C., Martino V., Gorzalczany S. In vivo anti-inflammatory activity and flavonoid identification of medicinal Eupatorium species Pharmacognosy Journal, Volume 5, Issue 2, March 2013, Pages 91-93

Comparative Clinical Study on the Effectiveness of

Homeopathic Combination Remedy with Standard

Maintenance Therapy for Dengue Fever

Syed Saeed-ul-Hassan1, Imran Tariq1*, Ayesha Khalid2 and Sabiha Karim1

My take:

Homeopathy is generally a bunch of quack waste of money remedies, and anecdotal evidence is not evidence. That said, many of our commonly used drugs have been derived from plants, bacteria, fungii,... in other words... nature. It is not some magic... plants have drugs that have a myriad of effects. These are later researched until the active ingredients are identified, isolated, and their method of action is determined. If a plant, or as I hate to say "homeopathic", method works it is due to the drugs in the plant. And, if they do work, they have side effects.... A simple way to show might be the "homeopathic" effects of a cup of coffee, marijuana, compounds in food(think red wine, or even a candy bar for diabetes) or any other drug... Yes, will make you feel better, but can raise your blood pressure etc... Or the "homeopathic" effects of any plant.... I apologize if anyone is too caught up on the name "homeopathy" and feel what I say doesn't meet the definition. I am not saying I support the Thai position on the use of a plant to try to stem the tide.... but I can see how one might find it an attractive option given the cost, Thai culture, and the lack of a vaccine. We must remember it is not only what you can do, but what a population is willing to do/public opinion that determines how to enact a public health initiative.

My hypothesis is that the reduction in Dengue associated deaths and infections may be due to 2 reasons. It is possible that deaths may be reduced due to reduced symptoms from the anti-inflammatory effects of the plants. It also may be possible that less incidences of Dengue are reported due to the anti-inflammatory effects (i.e. reduced symptoms lead to misdiagnosis). I can't speculate on any ant-viral effects as i didn't look that hard at papers, but some papers suggest a correlation... I do not know if they explain any causation (Too busy to read in-depth).

I would say more research should be done to develop a drug from these plants rather than the homeopathic method.... but, that is many years off.

Thanks for giving up lunch, I appreciate your contribution.

Edited July 1, 2014 by ClutchClark

[ClutchClark]

Double

Edited July 1, 2014 by ClutchClark

[jdlancaster]

Lol.... yes.... im sure if I added more data and reason.. itd get worse.... much easier to make fun heh.... when I first saw the thais do this..... I thought they were CRAZY..... so my original intent was to research it and tell my teachers and parents why it was stupid. .... I proved myself wrong.... but a vaccine is in the works.... by a french company. ... many years out though... and it could be false hope.... had malarial vaccine hope before.... but was disappointed. ... I used to help on some malaria research in bkk

[jdlancaster]

Oh and to clarify I know the difference between malaria and dengue.... just saying vaccines can be tricky..... gotta fine that magic epitope

[partington]

Partington.... I think you are missing the point.

1. This thread is about one specific treatment and I stated that most homeopathy is quacks making money.

2. You didn't read any of the articles I posted. One I read even posts blood cell count levels with there p values stated. There are also many studies that led to the thais choosing this treatment.

3. And what I saw my students was not diluted to an extreme amount.... it came from a concentrate. Many medicines are highly diluted to extreme orders of magnitude. Many in nano or picogram levels.

4. You're taking your data from a news story. ... a story with only preliminary results. .... they didn't decide to use it based on that data. They decided based on the data you did not read. The news story is for common people.And the results they posted are to convince thai people. .. not scientists. I saw many people ask to see just one peer reviewed scientific journal article.... I supplied

4. Science is rarely cut and dry.... many subjects have papers on both sides with results show positive and negative. Read more than a news article and a weak journal article that posts about results in thailand. They used the thai data to get thai people and readers attention.

Look you cannot discuss homeopathy if you just define it randomly how you like. It is NOT just using plant extracts as medicines, as you seem to think.

Here is a definition of homeopathy from a paper examining how mainstream, and "alternative medicine" journals publish homeopathy papers: http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6882/5/12 "McCarney et al., summarize the debate as follows: "The molecules contained in a homeopathic remedy are diluted beyond Avogadro's number. This has led some investigators to question whether homeopathic therapy could have any effect over placebo."

All of the papers except a single one you quote are not about homeopathy at all : they are about using plant extracts as medical compounds. This is why, as you point out, the compounds or extracts are used at significant doses: they are NOT papers about homeopathy! I could not find the single paper that does mention homeopathy, as you didn't give links for any of your papers, and the homeopathy one does not not even have a journal name or any citation references in your post.

Searching on PubMed only found one item on dengue and homeopathy, not the paper you mention. This was a negative result (see end of post for link/citation).

Please link to your article about homeopathy- I would like to see what it says.

http://www.homeopathyjournal.net/article/S1475-4916(06)00146-9/abstract

Homeopathy. 2007 Jan;96(1):22-6.The use of homeopathic combination remedy for dengue fever symptoms: a pilot RCT in Honduras.Jacobs J¹, Fernandez EA, Merizalde B, Avila-Montes GA, Crothers D.......the results of this study do not suggest that this combination homeopathic remedy is effective for the symptoms that are characteristic of dengue fever."

[attrayant]

Or we could do what Sri Lanka did and use citronella-infused in in their newspapers. http://mobile.geek.com/latest/253822-this-newspaper-repels-mosquitoes-and-helps-fight-disease

[attrayant]

Currently no known vaccine or cure so whats the harm in trying this?

Waste of time, resources & money that could go towards something more effective like repellant technology, fumigation and public education about mosquito breeding grounds.

And if that's not enough, here you go: http://whatstheharm.net/homeopathy.html

[ClutchClark]

You are entirely missing the point about homeopathy. It is NOT simply using plants as a source of a compound which can have beneficial effects.

This would simply be a drug treatment by another name.

The point of homeopathy, and why it is so ridiculous, is that the plant extract is sequentially diluted to the point where a simple calculation shows there is not a single molecule of any active compound left in the volume given. The dose is pure water.

This is why it doesn't work and why homeopaths have had to make up the "hypothesis" (excuse) that water can have a "memory" of molecules it once contained. If this were true, incidentally, any water out of any tap would be a homeopathic treatment for almost every disease.

You are also trying to explain beneficial effects for which there is no evidence at all. In the original article there were no reports of fewer deaths, and merely the listing of numbers of cases of the disease in two groups, one "treated" with the homeopathic remedy, and one not.

From the reported figures there was no difference statistically by chi-squared test between the two groups. Therefore there is no effect to explain except that bad science produces bad health strategies.

So what is your point? That the term "homeopathy" is not being used correctly?

Rather than getting hung up on whether this procedure is truly homeopathy or not, lets hear from you why it has no chance of working.

Thanks

[partington]

You are entirely missing the point about homeopathy. It is NOT simply using plants as a source of a compound which can have beneficial effects.

This would simply be a drug treatment by another name.

The point of homeopathy, and why it is so ridiculous, is that the plant extract is sequentially diluted to the point where a simple calculation shows there is not a single molecule of any active compound left in the volume given. The dose is pure water.

This is why it doesn't work and why homeopaths have had to make up the "hypothesis" (excuse) that water can have a "memory" of molecules it once contained. If this were true, incidentally, any water out of any tap would be a homeopathic treatment for almost every disease.

You are also trying to explain beneficial effects for which there is no evidence at all. In the original article there were no reports of fewer deaths, and merely the listing of numbers of cases of the disease in two groups, one "treated" with the homeopathic remedy, and one not.

From the reported figures there was no difference statistically by chi-squared test between the two groups. Therefore there is no effect to explain except that bad science produces bad health strategies.

So what is your point? That the term "homeopathy" is not being used correctly?

Rather than getting hung up on whether this procedure is truly homeopathy or not, lets hear from you why it has no chance of working.

Thanks

The original article was about homeopathy, so discussions of other treatments are not what the original article was about.

The Thais quoted in the original article were talking about using homeopathic treatments. These have no chance of working because there is no active compound in the treatment given- it is just water.

If you are talking about the concept of using plant extracts as a treatment in general, there is no reason why they may or may not work, but it has to be proved that they do or it's a waste of time and resources.

The treatment for symptomatic relief of dengue fever is pain relieving anti-inflammatory drugs like Tylenol,( avoiding aspirin and ibuprofen which cause impairment of blood clotting) and given the clinical experience with these, why change unless you are sure the alternative will be better?

I stress-the original article said the treatment was homeopathic. The poster I was responding to started referring to different, non-homeopathic treatments, that were not the subject of the original article, and therefore not what the original article referred to.

I was trying to explain

1.That the poster was talking about different treatments because he didn't know what homeopathy was

2. That the homeopathy referred to in the original article cannot work because it is treating a painful disease with water.

[ClutchClark]

Currently no known vaccine or cure so whats the harm in trying this?

Waste of time, resources & money that could go towards something more effective like repellant technology, fumigation and public education about mosquito breeding grounds.

And if that's not enough, here you go: http://whatstheharm.net/homeopathy.html

OK, the link you provided discusses examples of people with known diseases who relied on homeopathy as their sole treatment regimen. The link does not provide one example of where homeopathy was used as a pro-actiive vaccination that resulted in death. So, therefore, the link is not applicable to the OP.

This attempt to use "homeopathy" (or whatever you want to call this treatment) is a "trial run" to see if it has any effect. You are saying that any money spent on "trials" is a waste. If the medical community relied on your expertise then we would never have had one "trial" ever.

I am not saying I think this OP procedure will work. I do not have the medical expertise. What I do have is personal experience with both Dengue and Malaria and I can say that the current methods of education and fumigation are "working", however, both diseases are still wreaking havoc. As for a repellant, are you talking about daily use of DEET? Perhaps you should read about the hazards of long-term use of this repellant and also consider the cost to poor families of providing this commercial spray multiple times throughout a 24 hour period. Have you used DEET? I have used It for decades and I can tell you with certainty it needs to be re-applied "at minimum" hourly to remain effective. This includes the sprays of 25-35% concentrations. If you are using the strongest available, which is "Bens" at 98% concentration then an application every 90 minutes at max--and less if you are in the rain.

BTW, even at the lower concentrations, any fabrics containing nylon or polyester or any non-organic material will melt within 1-2 days. This includes rubber sandals, etc.

A multi-tiered approach to combating Dengue, including those methods you mentioned--along with incorporating novel methods like the OP is the way to go.

Out of curiosity, do you spend much time in the woods or the jungle? Have you ever had Dengue?

Cheers

[ClutchClark]

You are entirely missing the point about homeopathy. It is NOT simply using plants as a source of a compound which can have beneficial effects.

This would simply be a drug treatment by another name.

The point of homeopathy, and why it is so ridiculous, is that the plant extract is sequentially diluted to the point where a simple calculation shows there is not a single molecule of any active compound left in the volume given. The dose is pure water.

This is why it doesn't work and why homeopaths have had to make up the "hypothesis" (excuse) that water can have a "memory" of molecules it once contained. If this were true, incidentally, any water out of any tap would be a homeopathic treatment for almost every disease.

You are also trying to explain beneficial effects for which there is no evidence at all. In the original article there were no reports of fewer deaths, and merely the listing of numbers of cases of the disease in two groups, one "treated" with the homeopathic remedy, and one not.

From the reported figures there was no difference statistically by chi-squared test between the two groups. Therefore there is no effect to explain except that bad science produces bad health strategies.

So what is your point? That the term "homeopathy" is not being used correctly?

Rather than getting hung up on whether this procedure is truly homeopathy or not, lets hear from you why it has no chance of working.

Thanks

The original article was about homeopathy, so discussions of other treatments are not what the original article was about.

The Thais quoted in the original article were talking about using homeopathic treatments. These have no chance of working because there is no active compound in the treatment given- it is just water.

If you are talking about the concept of using plant extracts as a treatment in general, there is no reason why they may or may not work, but it has to be proved that they do or it's a waste of time and resources.

The treatment for symptomatic relief of dengue fever is pain relieving anti-inflammatory drugs like Tylenol,( avoiding aspirin and ibuprofen which cause impairment of blood clotting) and given the clinical experience with these, why change unless you are sure the alternative will be better?

I stress-the original article said the treatment was homeopathic. The poster I was responding to started referring to different, non-homeopathic treatments, that were not the subject of the original article, and therefore not what the original article referred to.

I was trying to explain

1.That the poster was talking about different treatments because he didn't know what homeopathy was

2. That the homeopathy referred to in the original article cannot work because it is treating a painful disease with water.

Thanks for clarifying. I am not saying that I have confidence in the OP treatment. The numbers they provide for 2011-2012 comparison is so low that it could amount to nothing more than a single infected mosquito getting into a single home and infecting one family to completely reverse the results.

I am simply interested in current methodologies and educated opinions like yours and a few others here. I appreciate the fact you are able to express yourselves without the usual rudeness found on TV.

Cheers

[jdlancaster]

1. I state one specific treatment.... don't argue homeopathy with me.... argue the effectiveness of the plant extract....The news author uses the word homeopathy to get readers... I don't care.... the word doesn't matter.... effective treatment does.... don't care how anyone defines it.... definitions change and are constantly argued over..... I wouldn't use the word homeopathy. ... I specify specific treatments and drugs....

2. Don't google homeopathy and dengue.... thats not how science papers are written. ... we are way more specific than that. You write the specific drug and we look for specific results. You can try google scholar and try the plant or the extract....

3. I gave specific citations. ... if you can't find them with that info you have no idea how to look up scientific papers.... gives you the title author year printed and journal. ... and your not even qualified to read or understand them.

4. And yes acetaminophen is the standard treatment. ... one of my papers cited compares standard treatment to standard treatment augmented with this plant extract. The augmented patient had better results. ..

[jdlancaster]

Oh and they don't stop standard treatment. ... standard treatment is the control.... you test standard treatment augmented with the plant.... as is one of the papers I cited.... you find a paper that says this specific plant has no antiinflammatory effects.... and it doesn't matter acetaminophen is already an antiinflammatory. ... they may act on different part of the signaling pathway.... you find a specific paper against this specific plant, then you have an argument. ... not silly issues with an authors sensational use of the word homeopathy to get readers. ..

[jdlancaster]

If it makes yoi feel better its not homeopathy. ... I am arguing what the thais are doing has merit.... im not argueing for homeopathy... but the author mislabeling doesn't mean it doesn't work. ... the word homeopathy doesn't fit what the thais are doing. .. they are giving them drugs... plain and simple.... homeopathy is a buzzword... and you haven't supplied one scientific journal article against this specific plant.

[rametindallas]

Breakbone fever is no fun.

Would hate to see a child with it.

Currently no known vaccine or cure so whats the harm in trying this?

If people think there is a treatment, they may not take enough prophylaxis precautions. Duh!

[jdlancaster]

If it makes yoi feel better its not homeopathy. ... I am arguing what the thais are doing has merit.... im not argueing for homeopathy... but the author mislabeling doesn't mean it doesn't work. ... the word homeopathy doesn't fit what the thais are doing. .. they are giving them drugs... plain and simple.... homeopathy is a buzzword... and you haven't supplied one scientific journal article against this specific plant. And anyways so people know they are also doing vaccine trials on dengue too in thailand so there are many things the government tries and they also do vector control. People take way too much disinformation from a sensationalist news article

[iphad]

Dengue Fever.,also known as “Break-bone Fever”, if you’ve had it you will probably always remember it. It is one of the more common tropical diseases and can be effectively treated with homeopathy. http://robertfield3.wordpress.com/homeopathy-tips/homeopathy-tips-for-112508-dengue-fever/

"It is found that at present there is no specific vaccine which can kill the virus of dengue fever not even a single antivirus tablets have been manufactured." http://www.denguefever.org.in/treatment-of-dengue.htm

"There are about 25 homoeopathic drugs available for the treatment of dengue fever.

These are Aconite., Arnica, Arsenic-alb., Arum-tri., Baptisia., Belladonna., Bryonia., Cantharis., China officinalis Colocynthis., Eupatorium perfoliatum., Ferrum metallicum., Gelsemium., Hamamelis., Ipecac., Lachesis, Merc-sol, Nux vomica., Podophyllum., Rhus toxicodendron., Rhus-venenata., Sanicula., Secale cornutum and Sul-acidum.

These drugs had been successfully used by various homeopaths across the globe for its treatment and management.

In 1996 during the epidemic of dengue in Delhi Eupatorium perfoliatum was found most effective. " http://www.delhihomeo.com/php/treatment/dengue_pre.htm

"Homeopathic treatment is quite effective not only for Dengue fever but also for all other types of fevers" http://www.homeopathy.com.pk/diseases/fevers/dengue-fever-symptoms-homeopathic-treatment.php

[rametindallas]

Breakbone fever is no fun.

Would hate to see a child with it.

Currently no known vaccine or cure so whats the harm in trying this?

If people think there is a treatment, they may not take enough prophylaxis precautions. Duh!

He totally created a straw man argument and then he knocked it down. He's not even referring to the OP. I guess he wants to show off his knowledge in herbal treatments. Have your ever heard the expression, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing"? Well, when your are dealing with health and safety, the saying is doubly applicable. Dangerous writings by jdlancaster.

[jdlancaster]

Protective efficacy of the recombinant, live-attenuated, CYD tetravalent dengue vaccine in Thai schoolchildren: a randomised, controlled phase 2b trial

Prof Arunee Sabchareon MD a, Dr Derek Wallace MB BS b , Chukiat Sirivichayakul MD a, Kriengsak Limkittikul MD a, Pornthep Chanthavanich MD a, Saravudh Suvannadabba MD c, Vithaya Jiwariyavej MD d, Wut Dulyachai MD d, Prof Krisana Pengsaa MD a, T Anh Wartel MD e, Annick Moureau MS f, Melanie Saville MB BS f, Alain Bouckenooghe MD b, Simonetta Viviani MD f, Nadia G Tornieporth MD h, Jean Lang MD g

[jdlancaster]

I am referring to the treatment in thailand. ... the news article is wrong.... or do you believe everything you read in the news?

[jdlancaster]

And iphad .... I don't think those are peer reviewed journal articles given the websites