95.5 percent of Crimeans vote for joining Russia

[F430murci]

Good to see the Yanks getting their ar** kicked for once!!!!

Putin must be loving this!!

Usually I agree with your posts re Thailand. But not at all on this issue. The US isn't getting anything kicked here, it's all the former Warsawa pact countries like Letland, Estland, Poland etc that are getting scared. It's a European problem.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

If the people are so obviously in favour (I can see thousands of happy people on the streets in Crimea smiling away waving Russian flags on the BBC world news). Then how can you deprive them of their wishes and desire?

To them, it is clearly beneficial for them to be in an alliance with Russia and the fact that America and the West are not happy about recent events is irrelevant.\

This seems (one can never be sure) that it is solely the Ukraine that is being affected here and not any surrounding countries. It is certainly possible that other parts of Ukraine could come into the equation, but so be it, if they want the same then let them have it as well..

Haha, you guys are so funny. Uhm, could it perhaps be you see exactly what Putin wants you to see? What do expect people to do? Start a riot or protest and get shot or locked up?

You do know what happens when people speak out against Putin in Russia controlled areas don't you? Khodorkvosky, Guriev, Durov, Navalny and I could go on and on, but I have to get ready for work.

[SICHONSTEVE]

Good to see the Yanks getting their ar** kicked for once!!!!

Putin must be loving this!!

Usually I agree with your posts re Thailand. But not at all on this issue. The US isn't getting anything kicked here, it's all the former Warsawa pact countries like Letland, Estland, Poland etc that are getting scared. It's a European problem.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

If the people are so obviously in favour (I can see thousands of happy people on the streets in Crimea smiling away waving Russian flags on the BBC world news). Then how can you deprive them of their wishes and desire?

To them, it is clearly beneficial for them to be in an alliance with Russia and the fact that America and the West are not happy about recent events is irrelevant.\

This seems (one can never be sure) that it is solely the Ukraine that is being affected here and not any surrounding countries. It is certainly possible that other parts of Ukraine could come into the equation, but so be it, if they want the same then let them have it as well..

Haha, you guys are so funny. Uhm, could it perhaps be you see exactly what Putin wants you to see? What do expect people to do? Start a riot or protest and get shot or locked up?

You do know what happens when people speak out against Putin in Russia controlled areas don't you? Khodorkvosky, Guriev, Durov, Navalny and I could go on and on, but I have to get ready for work.

What has this got to do with people speaking out against Putin!!!

They want to be regarded as Russian and that's it - they haven't been pressurised into this, they have been given the opportunity and have grasped it willingly with both hands!!

Good on them.

[pmugghc]

Good to see the Yanks getting their ar** kicked for once!!!!

Putin must be loving this!!

Usually I agree with your posts re Thailand. But not at all on this issue. The US isn't getting anything kicked here, it's all the former Warsawa pact countries like Letland, Estland, Poland etc that are getting scared. It's a European problem.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

If the people are so obviously in favour (I can see thousands of happy people on the streets in Crimea smiling away waving Russian flags on the BBC world news). Then how can you deprive them of their wishes and desire?

To them, it is clearly beneficial for them to be in an alliance with Russia and the fact that America and the West are not happy about recent events is irrelevant.\

This seems (one can never be sure) that it is solely the Ukraine that is being affected here and not any surrounding countries. It is certainly possible that other parts of Ukraine could come into the equation, but so be it, if they want the same then let them have it as well..

So what should the rules be? Ukraine was/is a sovereign country with its own rules regarding secession. So if Putin is eager to do anschluss (parts of Georgia, now Ukraine), how about he let's the region of Chechnya vote if they want to leave Russia?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[SICHONSTEVE]

Good to see the Yanks getting their ar** kicked for once!!!!

Putin must be loving this!!

Usually I agree with your posts re Thailand. But not at all on this issue. The US isn't getting anything kicked here, it's all the former Warsawa pact countries like Letland, Estland, Poland etc that are getting scared. It's a European problem.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

If the people are so obviously in favour (I can see thousands of happy people on the streets in Crimea smiling away waving Russian flags on the BBC world news). Then how can you deprive them of their wishes and desire?

To them, it is clearly beneficial for them to be in an alliance with Russia and the fact that America and the West are not happy about recent events is irrelevant.\

This seems (one can never be sure) that it is solely the Ukraine that is being affected here and not any surrounding countries. It is certainly possible that other parts of Ukraine could come into the equation, but so be it, if they want the same then let them have it as well..

So what should the rules be? Ukraine was/is a sovereign country with its own rules regarding secession. So if Putin is eager to do anschluss (parts of Georgia, now Ukraine), how about he let's the region of Chechnya vote if they want to leave Russia?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Fair point about Chechnya - I cannot comment on this as I don't have enough knowledge as to their reasons in not allowing secession in the Chechnyan's case.

All things being equal, they should be allowed a referendum - but I doubt that will be offered up to them. Perhaps you can enlighten me on this situation.

[pmugghc]

Good to see the Yanks getting their ar** kicked for once!!!!

Putin must be loving this!!

Usually I agree with your posts re Thailand. But not at all on this issue. The US isn't getting anything kicked here, it's all the former Warsawa pact countries like Letland, Estland, Poland etc that are getting scared. It's a European problem.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

If the people are so obviously in favour (I can see thousands of happy people on the streets in Crimea smiling away waving Russian flags on the BBC world news). Then how can you deprive them of their wishes and desire?

To them, it is clearly beneficial for them to be in an alliance with Russia and the fact that America and the West are not happy about recent events is irrelevant.\

This seems (one can never be sure) that it is solely the Ukraine that is being affected here and not any surrounding countries. It is certainly possible that other parts of Ukraine could come into the equation, but so be it, if they want the same then let them have it as well..

Can I assume based on your logic you'd be happy to let the people in southern Thailand (re)join Malaysia or be independent and let the northern part of Thailand to form a Lanna republic, as long as the people in those regions favor secession by a referendum? Should a small town in the the UK be allowed to form its own country as long as its people vote for it? Where do you draw the lines?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[h90]

It does have a lot to do with USA vs. Russia. Putin is testing U.S. power. Russia did the same to Bush, invading land in Georgia but didn't get all of Georgia. What stopped them? Now he has taken over part of Ukraine. Will he go for more or not? A lot has to do with how the U.S. reacts. People may complain about too much U.S. influence in the world, but compared to the thugocracy of Putin things really could be worse. You can't act like this doesn't have a lot to do with the U.S., the world's military superpower, not as super as before, but still much more SUPER than any other country.

It's quite interesting also that some U.S. leftists and also "libertarian" isolationist types are bending over backwards to be Putin apologists:

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/03/pathetic-lives-of-putins-american-dupes.html

But the central appeal of RT is to leftists, libertarians, conspiracy theorists, and other marginalized groups. The main thematic work of RT is to paint the West in the worst possible light, as decadent, corrupt, and failing – the Cohen method of defense-by-implication. RT’s deep coverage of the Occupy protests and harsh coverage of American politics and life in general offers a platform to critics who are denied respectful treatment in the U.S. media. They are bound, above all, by a desire to get on television.

The demise of communism has left a void in the place where socialist fervor once animated the Soviet dupes. In the absence of any positive motivating force, Putin’s Russia, which has positioned itself as America’s main rival, has sponged up whatever motley collection of outsiders it can find. Russia is not the vessel for their ideological fantasies, but merely a placeholder for their accumulated discontent.

Georgia was very different. Georgia invaded and Russia protected the Russian people there. Georgia thought Russia won't do it.

[SICHONSTEVE]

Good to see the Yanks getting their ar** kicked for once!!!!

Putin must be loving this!!

Usually I agree with your posts re Thailand. But not at all on this issue. The US isn't getting anything kicked here, it's all the former Warsawa pact countries like Letland, Estland, Poland etc that are getting scared. It's a European problem.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

If the people are so obviously in favour (I can see thousands of happy people on the streets in Crimea smiling away waving Russian flags on the BBC world news). Then how can you deprive them of their wishes and desire?

To them, it is clearly beneficial for them to be in an alliance with Russia and the fact that America and the West are not happy about recent events is irrelevant.\

This seems (one can never be sure) that it is solely the Ukraine that is being affected here and not any surrounding countries. It is certainly possible that other parts of Ukraine could come into the equation, but so be it, if they want the same then let them have it as well..

Can I assume based on your logic you'd be happy to let the people in southern Thailand (re)join Malaysia or be independent and let the northern part of Thailand to form a Lanna republic, as long as the people in those regions favor secession by a referendum? Should a small town in the the UK be allowed to form its own country as long as its people vote for it? Where do you draw the lines?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I think that it is certainly something that should be considered as the former example (Southern Thailand) has been problematical for years with no solution in sight.

As for Lanna, let them separate, but this is a clear case of it being 'a rude awakening' as they wouldn't last very long without the financial support from Bangkok. It might be an eye opener for them in fact and they would soon learn how dependent they are on others and will perhaps be appreciative of the rest of Thailand in stopping them from going under.

I don't think that a small town in the UK is going to want to form its own country as it wouldn't make much sense and people wouldn't actually vote for it to happen.

[marcusd]

"Some 95.5% of voters in Crimea have supported joining Russia"

Actually, no. 95.5% of those who didn't boycott the vote have supported joining Russia.

95.5% of voters have voted to join Russia.

Those who didn't vote are by definition not "voters", they didnt vote did they?

anyways, the voter turnout was 81.7%, with 95.5% in favor of joining russia, staggering numbers, you can't spin your way out of it. especially since this is after a legally democratically elected government in Kiev was removed by a small violent fascist minority and replaced by appointed elitists.

If the west truly values democracy they will back off and let the Crimean people, who in majority are russian anyway, join the country they want to join, but the west only values democracy when it suits them. therefor the small group of protesters (largely non violent) in Thailand is bad, and the democratically elected government is holy and can not be questioned. and the small group of protesters (largely very violent neo nazi's) in the Ukraine is good and the government is bad.

By the way, i don't want to make any claims about wether the government in Ukraine prior to the coup was not bad, it clearly was as corrupt as could be, and the people were right to be pissed off. but that doesn't make the double standard and total hypocrisy ok.

it's amazing the power the mainstream media has over people, who will blindly believe and support what they are being told to support.

nothing to do with democracy. Its all about causing a power block against putin who again wants the USSR. Even his own RUSSIAN. Who doesn't are found dead.

This is why the west battles him.

They will cripple putin economically as Russia is no,longer the Ussr and from within will pytin fall.

Too many Russian people enjoy their new life.

Crimea is all about who can face off longer.

Marcusd. Via tapatalk

[rgs2001uk]

That's daft. USA - Russia relations are now as bad as they have been since the so called end of the so called cold war. It's not about liking vodka or not or finding Russian ladies pretty, it's about the actions of Russia's dictator -- PUTIN.

Lets see how long it takes Scott to come to your rescue

What does US have to do with Ukraine?

What interests does US have in Ukraine?

Before you come with yet another Putin hate speech, the answer is NONE.

OH yes US is the protector of the people, GREAT. Well people have spoken in large majority want to part from Ukraine and be with Russia, yet apparently it is not acceptable by US.

Gee who is the dictator here i wonder?

Lets not delude ourselves, its got nothing to do with Ukraine, Crimea or Russia, its all to do with Uncle Sams missile defence system.

The people have voted, respect their voice, its not so long ago good ole Uncle Sam was championing Kosovo.

[folium]

Some folk seem to be missing the key point here..

Self-determination is a wonderful concept and should be applied wherever possible. The somewhat bizarre situation re the Crimea (given its demographics and history) however is compounded by the simple fact that Russia has utterly ignored its obligations re the 1994 Budapest Memorandum (signing up to guarantee the sovereignty of Ukraine and not intervening), and is also in breach of international law.

Russian troops have invaded a sovereign state and then choreographed a referendum, boycotted by the non-ethnically Russian population of the Crimea.

Comparisons with Kosovo, S.Sudan and N.Korea (<deleted>?) are risible.

Kosovo had been subjected to a 10 year campaign of brutality and persecution by the Serbs, culminating in the attempted ethnic cleansing of all Kosovar Albanians in 1998-99. The intervention was in many ways way too late and in the case of Crimea could any of the Putin apologists name a single Russian speaking citizen of that peninsula murdered by the "neo-Nazi Kiev regime"...... and the answer is of course, there are none. Kosovo went through the Ahtisaari process, 9 years of negotiation after it gained its autonomy before declaring its independence. Crimea? Was it even 2 hours after the referendum?

S.Sudan's independence (IMHO a major blunder as it sets a precedent for redrawing all African colonial boundaries and has proved to have been a total mess to date) was actually signed off by the government in Khartoum. Was Kiev consulted about Crimean secession?

As for N. Korea I wait to be enlightened how it is relevant.

The invasion of Crimea by Russian troops has allowed for a de facto secession of the peninsula. If Moscow actually annexes Crimea, then Moscow has made a classic step too far. The allegedly independent states of S. Ossetia or Abkhazia have never been incorporated into Russia. Similarly Armenia has never officially annexed Nagorno-Karabakh, nor has Turkey annexed northern Cyprus. In both these cases military intervention to relieve ethnic compatriots in imminent danger to allow self-determination and freedom from ethnic cleansing were actually genuine concerns. But neither Ankara nor Yerevan went to the next level and annexed these conquered territories.

If Putin decides to formally annex Crimea then we are into a totally different ball game, as this puts Eastern Ukraine, Latvia, Lithuania, Kazakhstan all into play, dependent on the whim of Putin.

[pmugghc]

Good to see the Yanks getting their ar** kicked for once!!!!

Putin must be loving this!!

Usually I agree with your posts re Thailand. But not at all on this issue. The US isn't getting anything kicked here, it's all the former Warsawa pact countries like Letland, Estland, Poland etc that are getting scared. It's a European problem.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

If the people are so obviously in favour (I can see thousands of happy people on the streets in Crimea smiling away waving Russian flags on the BBC world news). Then how can you deprive them of their wishes and desire?

To them, it is clearly beneficial for them to be in an alliance with Russia and the fact that America and the West are not happy about recent events is irrelevant.\

This seems (one can never be sure) that it is solely the Ukraine that is being affected here and not any surrounding countries. It is certainly possible that other parts of Ukraine could come into the equation, but so be it, if they want the same then let them have it as well..

Can I assume based on your logic you'd be happy to let the people in southern Thailand (re)join Malaysia or be independent and let the northern part of Thailand to form a Lanna republic, as long as the people in those regions favor secession by a referendum? Should a small town in the the UK be allowed to form its own country as long as its people vote for it? Where do you draw the lines?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I think that it is certainly something that should be considered as the former example (Southern Thailand) has been problematical for years with no solution in sight.

As for Lanna, let them separate, but this is a clear case of it being 'a rude awakening' as they wouldn't last very long without the financial support from Bangkok. It might be an eye opener for them in fact and they would soon learn how dependent they are on others and will perhaps be appreciative of the rest of Thailand in stopping them from going under.

I don't think that a small town in the UK is going to want to form its own country as it wouldn't make much sense and people wouldn't actually vote for it to happen.

But I think you see my point: should it really be up to just the people in a certain geographical area if they should be independent from the surrounding areas? I think not. It would lead to a wild-west mentality where you'd try to get the majority of the voters in resource-rich regions to form independent "countries" and blackmail the rest. Furthermore you'd get an enormous fragmentation. Much of Europe would be back to be a smattering of smaller countries.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[SICHONSTEVE]

"Some 95.5% of voters in Crimea have supported joining Russia"

Actually, no. 95.5% of those who didn't boycott the vote have supported joining Russia.

95.5% of voters have voted to join Russia.

Those who didn't vote are by definition not "voters", they didnt vote did they?

anyways, the voter turnout was 81.7%, with 95.5% in favor of joining russia, staggering numbers, you can't spin your way out of it. especially since this is after a legally democratically elected government in Kiev was removed by a small violent fascist minority and replaced by appointed elitists.

If the west truly values democracy they will back off and let the Crimean people, who in majority are russian anyway, join the country they want to join, but the west only values democracy when it suits them. therefor the small group of protesters (largely non violent) in Thailand is bad, and the democratically elected government is holy and can not be questioned. and the small group of protesters (largely very violent neo nazi's) in the Ukraine is good and the government is bad.

By the way, i don't want to make any claims about wether the government in Ukraine prior to the coup was not bad, it clearly was as corrupt as could be, and the people were right to be pissed off. but that doesn't make the double standard and total hypocrisy ok.

it's amazing the power the mainstream media has over people, who will blindly believe and support what they are being told to support.

nothing to do with democracy. Its all about causing a power block against putin who again wants the USSR. Even his own RUSSIAN. Who doesn't are found dead.

This is why the west battles him.

They will cripple putin economically as Russia is no,longer the Ussr and from within will pytin fall.

Too many Russian people enjoy their new life.

Crimea is all about who can face off longer.

Marcusd. Via tapatalk

Who face off from who??

give us a clue.

[folium]

It does have a lot to do with USA vs. Russia. Putin is testing U.S. power. Russia did the same to Bush, invading land in Georgia but didn't get all of Georgia. What stopped them? Now he has taken over part of Ukraine. Will he go for more or not? A lot has to do with how the U.S. reacts. People may complain about too much U.S. influence in the world, but compared to the thugocracy of Putin things really could be worse. You can't act like this doesn't have a lot to do with the U.S., the world's military superpower, not as super as before, but still much more SUPER than any other country.

It's quite interesting also that some U.S. leftists and also "libertarian" isolationist types are bending over backwards to be Putin apologists:

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/03/pathetic-lives-of-putins-american-dupes.html

But the central appeal of RT is to leftists, libertarians, conspiracy theorists, and other marginalized groups. The main thematic work of RT is to paint the West in the worst possible light, as decadent, corrupt, and failing – the Cohen method of defense-by-implication. RT’s deep coverage of the Occupy protests and harsh coverage of American politics and life in general offers a platform to critics who are denied respectful treatment in the U.S. media. They are bound, above all, by a desire to get on television.

The demise of communism has left a void in the place where socialist fervor once animated the Soviet dupes. In the absence of any positive motivating force, Putin’s Russia, which has positioned itself as America’s main rival, has sponged up whatever motley collection of outsiders it can find. Russia is not the vessel for their ideological fantasies, but merely a placeholder for their accumulated discontent.

Georgia was very different. Georgia invaded and Russia protected the Russian people there. Georgia thought Russia won't do it.

Try looking up exactly where Georgian forces intervened. If they set foot outside Georgian territory, Steely Dan is a muslim!

Tbilisi's mistake was to give the Russians the opportunity to invade a neighbouring sovereign country under the guise of protecting ethnic (well, passport-carrying) Russians. This time round the Ukrainians have avoided giving any such excuse, but that did little to alter Moscow's well-rehearsed plan to invade Crimea. BTW these type of operations are not organized at short notice but are the subject of continual review and tweaking of operational plans. Wonder if Moscow is now dusting off its other intervention plans?

[folium]

That's daft. USA - Russia relations are now as bad as they have been since the so called end of the so called cold war. It's not about liking vodka or not or finding Russian ladies pretty, it's about the actions of Russia's dictator -- PUTIN.

Lets see how long it takes Scott to come to your rescue

What does US have to do with Ukraine?

What interests does US have in Ukraine?

Before you come with yet another Putin hate speech, the answer is NONE.

OH yes US is the protector of the people, GREAT. Well people have spoken in large majority want to part from Ukraine and be with Russia, yet apparently it is not acceptable by US.

Gee who is the dictator here i wonder?

Lets not delude ourselves, its got nothing to do with Ukraine, Crimea or Russia, its all to do with Uncle Sams missile defence system.

The people have voted, respect their voice, its not so long ago good ole Uncle Sam was championing Kosovo.

Exactly which "missile defence system" are you referring to?

[SICHONSTEVE]

Good to see the Yanks getting their ar** kicked for once!!!!

Putin must be loving this!!

Usually I agree with your posts re Thailand. But not at all on this issue. The US isn't getting anything kicked here, it's all the former Warsawa pact countries like Letland, Estland, Poland etc that are getting scared. It's a European problem.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

If the people are so obviously in favour (I can see thousands of happy people on the streets in Crimea smiling away waving Russian flags on the BBC world news). Then how can you deprive them of their wishes and desire?

To them, it is clearly beneficial for them to be in an alliance with Russia and the fact that America and the West are not happy about recent events is irrelevant.\

This seems (one can never be sure) that it is solely the Ukraine that is being affected here and not any surrounding countries. It is certainly possible that other parts of Ukraine could come into the equation, but so be it, if they want the same then let them have it as well..

Can I assume based on your logic you'd be happy to let the people in southern Thailand (re)join Malaysia or be independent and let the northern part of Thailand to form a Lanna republic, as long as the people in those regions favor secession by a referendum? Should a small town in the the UK be allowed to form its own country as long as its people vote for it? Where do you draw the lines?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I think that it is certainly something that should be considered as the former example (Southern Thailand) has been problematical for years with no solution in sight.

As for Lanna, let them separate, but this is a clear case of it being 'a rude awakening' as they wouldn't last very long without the financial support from Bangkok. It might be an eye opener for them in fact and they would soon learn how dependent they are on others and will perhaps be appreciative of the rest of Thailand in stopping them from going under.

I don't think that a small town in the UK is going to want to form its own country as it wouldn't make much sense and people wouldn't actually vote for it to happen.

But I think you see my point: should it really be up to just the people in a certain geographical area if they should be independent from the surrounding areas? I think not. It would lead to a wild-west mentality where you'd try to get the majority of the voters in resource-rich regions to form independent "countries" and blackmail the rest. Furthermore you'd get an enormous fragmentation. Much of Europe would be back to be a smattering of smaller countries.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

let us look into this a bit deeper - Crimea, which is a small territory in the Ukraine that used to be part of the USSR is struggling financially wise. Russia has offered it a life line in this respect by promising badly needed financial support. The people have determined that it would be better for their prospects if they were absorbed back into Russia in preference to being subjected to a bunch of fascist neo-Nazi sympathisers running their country.

Seems a reasonable decision on their part to me.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies deleted.

[F430murci]

Some folk seem to be missing the key point here..

Self-determination is a wonderful concept and should be applied wherever possible. The somewhat bizarre situation re the Crimea (given its demographics and history) however is compounded by the simple fact that Russia has utterly ignored its obligations re the 1994 Budapest Memorandum (signing up to guarantee the sovereignty of Ukraine and not intervening), and is also in breach of international law.

Russian troops have invaded a sovereign state and then choreographed a referendum, boycotted by the non-ethnically Russian population of the Crimea.

Comparisons with Kosovo, S.Sudan and N.Korea (<deleted>?) are risible.

Kosovo had been subjected to a 10 year campaign of brutality and persecution by the Serbs, culminating in the attempted ethnic cleansing of all Kosovar Albanians in 1998-99. The intervention was in many ways way too late and in the case of Crimea could any of the Putin apologists name a single Russian speaking citizen of that peninsula murdered by the "neo-Nazi Kiev regime"...... and the answer is of course, there are none. Kosovo went through the Ahtisaari process, 9 years of negotiation after it gained its autonomy before declaring its independence. Crimea? Was it even 2 hours after the referendum?

S.Sudan's independence (IMHO a major blunder as it sets a precedent for redrawing all African colonial boundaries and has proved to have been a total mess to date) was actually signed off by the government in Khartoum. Was Kiev consulted about Crimean secession?

As for N. Korea I wait to be enlightened how it is relevant.

The invasion of Crimea by Russian troops has allowed for a de facto secession of the peninsula. If Moscow actually annexes Crimea, then Moscow has made a classic step too far. The allegedly independent states of S. Ossetia or Abkhazia have never been incorporated into Russia. Similarly Armenia has never officially annexed Nagorno-Karabakh, nor has Turkey annexed northern Cyprus. In both these cases military intervention to relieve ethnic compatriots in imminent danger to allow self-determination and freedom from ethnic cleansing were actually genuine concerns. But neither Ankara nor Yerevan went to the next level and annexed these conquered territories.

If Putin decides to formally annex Crimea then we are into a totally different ball game, as this puts Eastern Ukraine, Latvia, Lithuania, Kazakhstan all into play, dependent on the whim of Putin.

Wow, this actually very good stuff and, whether right or wrong, objectively intelligent. A rare occurrence on here.

That whole region is so complicated that normal people on here, like me, lack a complete understanding of even the basic factors and thought processes at play here. Most of us just spout off with the anti this or anti that rhetoric which is more about the utterer than about what is actually going on.

[Jingthing]

Yes it's obvious the game gets much more serious once Russia actually annexes Crimea. I think they will. I don't read anything to indicate differently.

[SICHONSTEVE]

Yes it's obvious the game gets much more serious once Russia actually annexes Crimea. I think they will. I don't read anything to indicate differently.

The Russians haven't forcibly annexed Crimea - the held a referendum and voted in large numbers to be absorbed back into Russia. A slight difference into how you are describing it , don't you agree?

[Jingthing]

Yes it's obvious the game gets much more serious once Russia actually annexes Crimea. I think they will. I don't read anything to indicate differently.

The Russians haven't forcibly annexed Crimea - the held a referendum and voted in large numbers to be absorbed back into Russia. A slight difference into how you are describing it , don't you agree?

The Russians engineered a rush vote under force and intimidation and didn't even ask the question to keep the status quo or not.

You read my post incorrectly.

I never said Russia has annexed Crimea yet (officially).

The Russian government is deciding that soon.

Why wouldn't they at this point? We'll now see what they do and IF they do that the pushback is DEFINITELY going to get more hard core.

The worry will be they haven't stopped at Crimea.

So in future please don't put words in my mouth.

Cheers.

Edited March 17, 2014 by Jingthing

[SICHONSTEVE]

Yes it's obvious the game gets much more serious once Russia actually annexes Crimea. I think they will. I don't read anything to indicate differently.

The Russians haven't forcibly annexed Crimea - the held a referendum and voted in large numbers to be absorbed back into Russia. A slight difference into how you are describing it , don't you agree?

The Russians engineered a rush vote under force and intimidation and didn't even ask the question to keep the status quo or not.

You read my post incorrectly.

I never said Russia has annexed Crimea yet (officially).

The Russian government is deciding that soon.

Why wouldn't they at this point? We'll now see what they do and IF they do that the pushback is DEFINITELY going to get more hard core.

The worry will be they haven't stopped at Crimea.

So in future please don't put words in my mouth.

Cheers.

You have indicated that you think that Russia is going to annexe Crimea. My point is that it is not an annexation process at all but a voluntary reunion decided by a fair referendum (to do so).

[Jingthing]

Yes it's obvious the game gets much more serious once Russia actually annexes Crimea. I think they will. I don't read anything to indicate differently.

The Russians haven't forcibly annexed Crimea - the held a referendum and voted in large numbers to be absorbed back into Russia. A slight difference into how you are describing it , don't you agree?

The Russians engineered a rush vote under force and intimidation and didn't even ask the question to keep the status quo or not.

You read my post incorrectly.

I never said Russia has annexed Crimea yet (officially).

The Russian government is deciding that soon.

Why wouldn't they at this point? We'll now see what they do and IF they do that the pushback is DEFINITELY going to get more hard core.

The worry will be they haven't stopped at Crimea.

So in future please don't put words in my mouth.

Cheers.

You have indicated that you think that Russia is going to annexe Crimea. My point is that it is not an annexation process at all but a voluntary reunion decided by a fair referendum (to do so).

You're confused. The Russian government is not obligated to respond to the fake election in Crimea and they are not obligated to formally incorporate Crimea into Russia just because that was the sentiment expressed in the forced election which didn't even ask about the status quo option (and didn't involve the majority of people in Ukraine at all). IF Russia does formally annex Crimea, THEN they will have done that -- they have not done that YET. I think they will. If they do this, it is in violation of a formal agreement they made before not to mess with the territorial borders of Ukraine. I hope they do not but they've gone this far and seem ready to see what the real price will be (nobody knows yet). Russia could choose not to formally annex Crimea and just have a de facto annexation, which is arguably a smarter thing to do as that would attract much less international pushback.

Edited March 17, 2014 by Jingthing

[SICHONSTEVE]

What fake election are you referring to?

I was only aware that they had a referendum on the matter - annexation is forced upon people whereas as this is voluntary reunion or repatriation following a unanimous declaration that they want to break away from the Ukraine and re-join with Russia.

[Jingthing]

I'm done playing your petty semantic games. In the forced election with set choices from the Kremlin, the results are in. But sorry if you don't get this -- it is not over. Crimea is not OFFICIALLY part of Russia until the official GOVERNMENT in Russia formally includes Crimea into Russia. This has not happened yet. This is what people are talking about as a serious step that Russia can choose to take or not to take. If they do, it gets more serious. Russia can choose to take the "win" from the election and get a lot of what they want from that. They don't need to formally include Crimea into Russia.

Edited March 17, 2014 by Jingthing

[SICHONSTEVE]

I'm done playing your petty semantic games. In the forced election with set choices from the Kremlin, the results are in. But sorry if you don't get this -- it is not over. Crimea is not OFFICIALLY part of Russia until the official GOVERNMENT in Russia formally includes Crimea into Russia. This has not happened yet. This is what people are talking about as a serious step that Russia can choose to take or not to take. If they do, it gets more serious. Russia can choose to take the "win" from the election and get a lot of what they want from that. They don't need to formally include Crimea into Russia.

Still don't get this 'forced election' thing of yours but all I see on the BBC news is lots of Russian flag waving people delirious at the thought of becoming Russian again - which will, I believe, happen next week as the Crimean parliament are going to apply for it and the Russians are make provisions in their parliament in order to make it legal for it to happen!!

Edited March 17, 2014 by SICHONSTEVE

[folium]

I'm done playing your petty semantic games. In the forced election with set choices from the Kremlin, the results are in. But sorry if you don't get this -- it is not over. Crimea is not OFFICIALLY part of Russia until the official GOVERNMENT in Russia formally includes Crimea into Russia. This has not happened yet. This is what people are talking about as a serious step that Russia can choose to take or not to take. If they do, it gets more serious. Russia can choose to take the "win" from the election and get a lot of what they want from that. They don't need to formally include Crimea into Russia.

Still don't get this 'forced election' thing of yours but all I see on the BBC news is lots of Russian flag waving people delirious at the thought of becoming Russian again - which will, I believe, happen next week as the Crimean parliament are going to apply for it and the Russians are make provisions in their parliament in order to make it legal for it to happen!!

De facto secession has been achieved in Abkhazia, S. Ossetia, Transdneister and Northern Cyprus. While they claim to be independent states (unrecognized by most of the world), none of them have been absorbed into their "parent" states, Russia for the first three and Turkey for the last one. The reason is quite simple.

A country intervening militarily in another sovereign state to enable secession is one thing (and bloody hard to stop unless you have significant resources close by and the will to go to war), but actually taking territory from another state (ie annexation) is a pretty dramatic step (not forgetting a totally illegal one). Azerbaijan tried to prevent Nagorno-Karabakh (NK) seceeding and in the resulting war got soundly thrashed and lost not only NK but also a sizeable chunk of its territory outside NK. Despite this Armenia has not annexed NK, even though the vast majority of NK's population see themselves as Armenians.

Have a watch of this. Part of a TV series that also covered Abkhazia, S.Ossetia, Somaliland, ROC, & Transdneister

Hence all the pathetic charade in the Crimea of Russian troops taking off their insignia and identifiying badges (also in contravention of the Geneva Conventions), thus allowing Moscow to claim that these troops were actually Crimean local self-defence forces. If Moscow settles for an Abkhazian style end-game with a self-proclaimed "independent Crimea" becoming part of the Eurasian Union (Russia, Belarus & Kazakhstan), Putin will probably get away with this shameless land-grab. Taking over Crimea and incorporating it into Russia will see some serious proverbial hitting the fan.

Edited March 17, 2014 by folium

[bangon04]

Maybe more people should watch RT Russia Today for their information. 3 weeks before the shooting started in Kiev, RT was drawing lines across the map of Ukraine showing how the Russian-speaking "majority" could usefully secede from Ukraine.

RT is now already running stories about the growing calls for a referendum in other parts of eastern Ukraine, and is also warning of the terrible effects of possible "ethnic cleansing" which could/will arise in the near future.

Features today include the threats by Ukrainian extremists to use nuclear weapons against Russia, which will of course require Russian incursions to secure nuclear sites.

Putin is skilled in using the gross hypocrisy of the western powers against them. He also knows that the west is toothless. He will threaten to turn off the gas/oil pipelines. He can afford to do this for a limited time. Germany and Europe cannot afford this.

[Jingthing]

Sure thing, RT will tell you what Putin is up to. It's one of his propaganda organs.

Edited March 17, 2014 by Jingthing

[folium]

Maybe more people should watch RT Russia Today for their information. 3 weeks before the shooting started in Kiev, RT was drawing lines across the map of Ukraine showing how the Russian-speaking "majority" could usefully secede from Ukraine.

RT is now already running stories about the growing calls for a referendum in other parts of eastern Ukraine, and is also warning of the terrible effects of possible "ethnic cleansing" which could/will arise in the near future.

Features today include the threats by Ukrainian extremists to use nuclear weapons against Russia, which will of course require Russian incursions to secure nuclear sites.

Putin is skilled in using the gross hypocrisy of the western powers against them. He also knows that the west is toothless. He will threaten to turn off the gas/oil pipelines. He can afford to do this for a limited time. Germany and Europe cannot afford this.

Love to know where Ukrainian "extremists" plan to source nuclear weapons, given the fact that the last of Ukraine's nuclear warheads was shipped to Russia in June 1996. Hence the Budapest Memorandum which pledged non-interference and respect for Ukraine's sovereignty (shredded by the Russian invasion of Crimea and by earlier cases of economic coercion) in exchange for Ukraine giving up its vast collection of nuclear weapons, and signed by Ukraine, USA, UK and Russia....

[Jingthing]

Yes, the way that Russia is raping Ukraine will be further ammuntion for many countries to GET nukes. If Ukraine had kept their nukes, this wouldn't have happened. Shame on Putin! He is a real life modern villain.

He knows he's going to pay a price for this. He thinks it will be an acceptable price. We will see.

Edited March 17, 2014 by Jingthing