Vote 'a chance to restore democracy'

[dickyknee]

"He said if the Democrat Party agreed to take part in a new election, it could bring about a government that could kick-start reform and which served only one year before another election under the new reform was called."

and then

"Nuttawut said if the UDD gained victory, it would reform independent agencies, especially on their power to remove political office holders."

despite my confusion about the UDD ever being able to reform independent agencies, this is the reform they want.

seriously bad idea...

[sawadee1947]

amazing.....never expected that they would see a prosperious future of democracy. Congrats Red Shirts! Hopefully Suthep will be hit by intelligence praying to give him brain, brain, brain....

[fab4]

In any other country a man who stands up and demands free elections would be a hero.

He isn't demanding free elections......I complete missed where he ever complained about the vote buying or why he is ranting against the attempts from Thaksin to rig the elections in the past (boots that can be seen in, rubber stamps, transporting the boxes unattended by Taxi driver, etc etc).

He is demanding un-free elections. While Suthep wants a framework to make free elections possible in future.

That ridiculous logic again. If he doesn't denounce "un-free elections" as you put it, he is demanding "un-free elections". You completely ignore the reports from ANFREL, as does abhisit, in his quest for the "free fair election", anything, rather than contest one.

Nuttawut hasn't denounced Putins overtures towards the Ukraine and Crimea either, it doesn't mean he supports him.

[metisdead]

An off topic post has been removed.

[Nickymaster]

Once the Red shirts are done celebrating the killings of PDRC protestors, they should realize that they have created a coup situation again...

Let's remind ourselves what happened on Sep 20, 2006:

At 9:16 a.m., the military junta in a public announcement Thaksin for the coup. The official statement said the ousted leader had caused “an unprecedented rift in society, widespread corruption, nepotism, and interfered with independent agencies, crippling them so they cannot function. If [Thaksin's regime] is allowed to govern it will hurt the country. They have also repeatedly insulted the King. Thus the council needed to seize power.”

Today we have an identical situation. (maybe except for the last point).

So leave the democracy blah blah aside Natthawut. Leave that to educated people. If you don't like to follow any laws and when the court rules against your clan the only thing you can do is threaten and attack the judges, a coup is the only solution.

[fab4]

Wow, that's a change.

Instead of laughably quoting seminars, forums, raising money for who they call buffalo's, from a coup-monger stage, finally we get some input from those on the electoral majority and pro-democracy side of things.

Also good not to see other misleading characterizations by the media.

Such as calling a power-grab attempt outside elections a 'protest'. Using Parliamentary issues as self-serving cover for coupist intentions. Calling attempts to 'cook the electoral books" before an election in order to improve their electability, so that they do not need to transform themselves...... "Reform".

Coup-mongers are not protesters and are not reformers.

On the other hand he still seems focused on doing away with the independent agencies and courts (or rather restricting them so they cannot touch the government). Checks and balances are crucial to society as is the rule of law. He also seems to dislike the Senate.

Nothing wrong with checks and balances and independant agencies when you can rely on them to be non partisan.

Of course. But that doesn't mean that if you persistently break the law, ignore the rules and act illegally, that they should look the other way.

"We are the elected government now, can do what we want" - well no, they can't actually, Not in any democracy.

PTP think the law is there to be used by them to control others, but doesn't apply to themselves of course.

You're being a bit emotional with the "persistently" talk here. A lot of what you and others consider as "breaking the law" is down to the interpretation of the constitution by the CC. Take for example the first occasion the CC interfered with the parliamentary process back in 2012 by stopping any amendment of the constitution. They introduced a completely arbitrary ruling that a referendum should be carried out first, despite there being no requirement to do so in the constitution. They then allowed the government to amend the constitution, article by article, in parliament. This they did, only for the CC to later rule these government actions as unconstitutional. They further compounded this by ruling that the government had overthrown the democratic regime with the King as Head of State when amending the section dealing with the election of Senators.

At best one could say those rulings would be deemed inconsistent, at worst, one could be forgiven with thinking that reality and the CC were not frequently acquainted.

It's very easy to fall foul of the "law" when arbitrary rulings are made. What was it that Somchai (EC) said, "Our Society today cannot only live by the law" but then he's on the other side of the divide , so that's all right then.

[fab4]

In any other country a man who stands up and demands free elections would be a hero.

Read what he says carefully.

Sure he wants elections, But only if the side he supports win. Would he be so enthusiastic if they lost - I doubt it. More like squealing unfair and trying to organize a rebellion again,

He also makes it clear if they are returned to office they will "reform" the independent agencies and restrict their authority over illegal government activities. They want a government that once elected really can do just as they please. The you'll see the real intentions come out, with no one to hold them in check.

How's his transport company doing these days? Still making money moving lots of rice around? Has his company been paid by the government for all the work carried out in the rice scheme?

In any other country a man who stands up and demands the farmers be paid as promised, and demands full transparency on where all the money has gone would be a hero.

All that go back to the 1997 constitution is just about to restrict the power of independent agencies, because that is what changed in the new constitution.

There is nothing in the 1997 c over the current c that would benefit the ordinary people.

Since the amnesty bill even the slowest thinker should know what this is all about.

Yes, and it's not about the Amnesty Bill or Corruption or "free and fair" elections.

[Scamper]

Lies and deception - all of it. There is no shame to this man. This is the man who called for the arson that took Bangkok in 2010, and famously said that he would " take responsibility ". A video tape of that speech ( like the UDD secession rally of February 23, that he attended and endorsed ) has been seen thousands upon thousands of times around the world. And he dares to downplay the violence that attends the rhetoric of every UDD rally that ever was. The words he chooses here are meant - under the presumption of their sheer presence - meant to erase history, erase everything the UDD has ever said - even for rallies and events as recently as a few weeks ago ! All of it is magically gone, apparently. Why ? Because Nattawut wills it so. The elimination of the independent agencies is now called " reform ". The impeachment of judges of the Constitutional Court and the appointing of new ones is now called " reform ". The secessionist movement - that he attended and supported - was just pretending, and not for real. Well people have better memories than that. The people of Bangkok well remember how that particular brand of pretending burnt the capital. The people of the country well remember the promises of reform before the 2011 election, and the people of the country well remember the form that took - a passport and amnesty for Thaksin, family members and relatives placed in positions of power, rampant corruption, abuse of parliamentary procedures, and attempts to rewrite the charter through unconstitutional means. The memories of the Thai people are extremely good and extremely vivid. How is your memory, Nattawut ? Are you ready to take responsibility yet, or were you just " pretending " then, as well ? You wear two hats already. You were appointed the minister of agriculture. You are also apparently the " secretary-general of the UDD ". A moonlighting job, by any chance, to supplement your parliamentary one ? Suporn was appointed the deputy secretary general for the Prime Minister. He is also the leader of the DPV. Moonlighting job, as well perhaps ? Administrative life too dull ? In 2011, Yingluck did everything she could to convince the Thai people she had nothing to do with her brother, and he and his interests would have nothing to do with her administration. She said she was committed to reform. She said that Pheu Thai and the UDD were separate. Two and a half years later, what she said regarding her brother was a lie. What she said regarding reform was a lie. And Pheu Thai and the UDD are now joined at the hip, for all to see.

[northernjohn]

In any other country a man who stands up and demands free elections would be a hero.

Don't be a hypocrite.

If you and a newly married couple having the time of their life on a cruise were to suddenly find your selves in a life boat in the middle of no where and not enough supplies for three would you just jump into the ocean when the other two voted that you had to go?

It sounds funny but it is no different than holding a vote when you know for a fact that they election system is faulty and needs reform.

Why you and your ilk try to fight reform is beyond me.

If Thailand had a decent education system and every one received it I would agree with you let them vote but such is not the case.

I am not making accusations just stating my belief. There is only one reason to support the corruption on the size it is in Thailand and that is the people are making money off of it themselves.

[Dogmatix]

When Jatuporn took the UDD helm he said he would lead the battle in a democratic way, and not act like a courtier."

One in the eye, for the UDD's former-leader, Khun Thida ?

Nuttawut urges Democrat Party to take part; denies red-shirt revamp prompted by Suthep

BANGKOK: -- Caretaker Deputy Commerce Minister Nuttawut Saikuar believes the Constitutional Court ruling nullifying the February 2 election can be the starting point to bring the country back on the democratic path.

He said if the Democrat Party agreed to take part in a new election, it could bring about a government that could kick-start reform and which served only one year before another election under the new reform was called.

Something must be wrong, something Nuttawat says actually seems sensible, although of course he then backs it up with what might be taken as a threat !

"If we fight within the rule of law, a war will not break out."

Fighting within the rule of law means Ko Tee's motorcycle gunmen shooting PDRC protestors and his or other red shirt groups firing grenades at children in Trat and in front of Big C. This is within the rule of law, as interpreted by Thai police who do not take any action.

[Maroon Watcher]

....so why dont they tour the country - communiacating with voters -

so they will democratically vote for them - there policies and their leaders...

NOT hold the country to ransome!

In any other country a man who stands up and demands free elections would be a hero.

[northernjohn]

In any other country a man who stands up and demands free elections would be a hero.

Read what he says carefully.

Sure he wants elections, But only if the side he supports win. Would he be so enthusiastic if they lost - I doubt it. More like squealing unfair and trying to organize a rebellion again,

He also makes it clear if they are returned to office they will "reform" the independent agencies and restrict their authority over illegal government activities. They want a government that once elected really can do just as they please. The you'll see the real intentions come out, with no one to hold them in check.

How's his transport company doing these days? Still making money moving lots of rice around? Has his company been paid by the government for all the work carried out in the rice scheme?

In any other country a man who stands up and demands the farmers be paid as promised, and demands full transparency on where all the money has gone would be a hero.

All that go back to the 1997 constitution is just about to restrict the power of independent agencies, because that is what changed in the new constitution.

There is nothing in the 1997 c over the current c that would benefit the ordinary people.

Since the amnesty bill even the slowest thinker should know what this is all about.

Yes, and it's not about the Amnesty Bill or Corruption or "free and fair" elections.

Two thirds wrong.

It is not about the Amnesty bill. That is one for you it is done and gone

It is about making Thailand more transparent so that the corruption can not continue on the rising path it is on under the PTP.

It is about a fair and just election. People do not want the vote rigging and lying to continue. They want an honest election where the candidates give reasonable promises and try there best to implement them. Not where they say any old thing they think you want to hear and then ask the man in Dubai what he want's done.

[Stan7444]

I like the idea of a one year government and then national discussion on reform then vote again under a new constitution (i.e. no les majeste law etc.)

Agreed, especially if all parties concerned would commit to the constitutional-changes being ratified (preferably change-by-change), by a national-referendum ?

Not sure that the L.M. law will ever be removed, bit of a 'hot potato' or 'red rag to a bull', that one. Perhaps try to have it watered-down slightly instead ?

It was mentioned in the media some time ago about modifications to the L.M. law so that not just any jerk who has a personal grudge (like one brother against another brother in the news a couple months ago) can accuse someone of L.M. Instead, a special petition would need to be submitted to an organization set up for such purposes for consideration, and if accepted, then prosecuted.

In any event, having a 6 year minimum term for speaking your mind, or someone posting on your website something deemed offensive without the website owner even noticing it, is a bit over the top. Appropriate time for an offense should be the rule of law. It is amazing that for a particular offense, someone can be given either a 20,000 baht fine or 3 years in jail. How fair is that one?

[siampolee]

Fine words but what might their value be?

I am reminded of an old Kazak proverb, see below.

A wolf cannot be satisfied with sheep, a man is never satisfied with thoughts.

Edited March 24, 2014 by siampolee

[Fat Haggis]

When Jatuporn took the UDD helm he said he would lead the battle in a democratic way, and not act like a courtier."

One in the eye, for the UDD's former-leader, Khun Thida ?

Nuttawut urges Democrat Party to take part; denies red-shirt revamp prompted by Suthep

BANGKOK: -- Caretaker Deputy Commerce Minister Nuttawut Saikuar believes the Constitutional Court ruling nullifying the February 2 election can be the starting point to bring the country back on the democratic path.

He said if the Democrat Party agreed to take part in a new election, it could bring about a government that could kick-start reform and which served only one year before another election under the new reform was called.

Something must be wrong, something Nuttawat says actually seems sensible, although of course he then backs it up with what might be taken as a threat !

"If we fight within the rule of law, a war will not break out."

Fighting within the rule of law means Ko Tee's motorcycle gunmen shooting PDRC protestors and his or other red shirt groups firing grenades at children in Trat and in front of Big C. This is within the rule of law, as interpreted by Thai police who do not take any action.

As opposed to having 3,000 PDRC guards some of whom are armed and carrying illegal weapons, and some including the now far removed "popcorn shooter" hero having been caught in possession of illegal weapons and ammunition?. Although the popcorn shooter was snitched on, he's still signing like a canary on all the illegal stuff carried out within the PDRC..

People in Glass houses mate

Both sides are as bad as each other, but clearly one side feels less comfortable letting the Thai population decide who should be running the country..

[Thailand]

I believe Nuttawut has got it right - that Suthep really is not the problem. Suthep is merely a puppet of some unseen power....

Quote from OP

Nuttawut said courtiers control the country's structure and mechanisms and used Suthep to lead the fight.

"Suthep is not our rival. We are fighting the bad structure and mechanisms that suppress the people's structure,'' he said.

And who would these unseen powers to be?

Some super rich?

beer families....Singha/Chang...no

bank families....no

CP....no

royal family no

army no

so he can be only a puppet of the wealthy middle class, southern people and now increasingly rice farmer....Mostly southern and central people but increasing but still less Northern and North Eastern. (as longer as the rice farmer don't get paid as more they will support Suthep). But that is hardly surprising.

I think one of your no's should be yes.

[Fryslan boppe]

Wow, that's a change.

Instead of laughably quoting seminars, forums, raising money for who they call buffalo's, from a coup-monger stage, finally we get some input from those on the electoral majority and pro-democracy side of things.

Also good not to see other misleading characterizations by the media.

Such as calling a power-grab attempt outside elections a 'protest'. Using Parliamentary issues as self-serving cover for coupist intentions. Calling attempts to 'cook the electoral books" before an election in order to improve their electability, so that they do not need to transform themselves...... "Reform".

Coup-mongers are not protesters and are not reformers.

On the other hand he still seems focused on doing away with the independent agencies and courts (or rather restricting them so they cannot touch the government). Checks and balances are crucial to society as is the rule of law. He also seems to dislike the Senate.

" Checks and balances are crucial to society as is the rule of law"

Ya can't argue with that. What can possibly be wrong with 'motherhood and apple pie".

But the above quote presumes non-politicized 'checks and balances' . Not put in place by a previous version of coup-mongers for the express purpose of assisting a later version.

Trying to normalize the abnormal with respect to these Independent organizations and judiciary is ridiculous, in the face of clear evidence to the contary.

[Fryslan boppe]

Wow, that's a change.

Instead of laughably quoting seminars, forums, raising money for who they call buffalo's, from a coup-monger stage, finally we get some input from those on the electoral majority and pro-democracy side of things.

Also good not to see other misleading characterizations by the media.

Such as calling a power-grab attempt outside elections a 'protest'. Using Parliamentary issues as self-serving cover for coupist intentions. Calling attempts to 'cook the electoral books" before an election in order to improve their electability, so that they do not need to transform themselves...... "Reform".

Coup-mongers are not protesters and are not reformers.

Enjoy name-calling much?

Actually there is some satisfaction in ferretting out propaganda and exposing it, from whatever source.

Those for whom the propaganda is propagated, don't notice it...For them, it simply reinforces 'their world'...It is their 'norm'.

I can understand when their norm and political comfort zone balloon is pricked, that it can be discomforting,

[Fryslan boppe]

Wow, that's a change.

Instead of laughably quoting seminars, forums, raising money for who they call buffalo's, from a coup-monger stage, finally we get some input from those on the electoral majority and pro-democracy side of things.

Also good not to see other misleading characterizations by the media.

Such as calling a power-grab attempt outside elections a 'protest'. Using Parliamentary issues as self-serving cover for coupist intentions. Calling attempts to 'cook the electoral books" before an election in order to improve their electability, so that they do not need to transform themselves...... "Reform".

Coup-mongers are not protesters and are not reformers.

I think the last huge demonstration of your electoral majority was below 10.000...some speak about 3000-4000 with all kinds of free things.

On the demonstration before people started to leave during a speech because the time they were paid for was finished.

If you would have learned any history than you would know that almost all reforms came after coups, revolutions or similar upraising. Without that USA would be still a part of UK and Europe would be ruled by absolute monarchies.....The corrupt people in power will never make a reform that cut their own share of power and money.

So a non elected reform government with the person banned from politics for the next 5 years after to avoid any conflict of interest would be the best solution for Thailand.

#1 - "I think the last huge demonstration of your electoral majority was below 10.000...some speak about 3000-4000 with all kinds of free things.

If such fabricated diminshment was true, why is there such fear about elections, especially nullifying and tabulating the last one? Underestimating the UDD/RS is done at the PAD-Dem's own peril.

#2 -On the demonstration before people started to leave during a speech, because the time they were paid for was finished."

Such denigration of majority voter motivation often sourced from sheer PAD-Dem arrogance, will continue to bite them in their electoral a..

Failure to adopt policies and electoral planks for this majority, will continue to consign them to the political wilderness in the foreseeable future, where they belong.

[rubl]

In other words, if you do what we want no violence will occur, no fighting, nothing will happen.

I'm afraid the nothing also includes the reforms.

[Fryslan boppe]

Wow, that's a change.

Instead of laughably quoting seminars, forums, raising money for who they call buffalo's, from a coup-monger stage, finally we get some input from those on the electoral majority and pro-democracy side of things.

Also good not to see other misleading characterizations by the media.

Such as calling a power-grab attempt outside elections a 'protest'. Using Parliamentary issues as self-serving cover for coupist intentions. Calling attempts to 'cook the electoral books" before an election in order to improve their electability, so that they do not need to transform themselves...... "Reform".

Coup-mongers are not protesters and are not reformers.

On the other hand he still seems focused on doing away with the independent agencies and courts (or rather restricting them so they cannot touch the government). Checks and balances are crucial to society as is the rule of law. He also seems to dislike the Senate.

Nothing wrong with checks and balances and independant agencies when you can rely on them to be non partisan.

Of course. But that doesn't mean that if you persistently break the law, ignore the rules and act illegally, that they should look the other way.

"We are the elected government now, can do what we want" - well no, they can't actually, Not in any democracy.

PTP think the law is there to be used by them to control others, but doesn't apply to themselves of course.

""We are the elected government now, can do what we want" - well no..."

Well....yes.

It is the beauty of the Thai system as compared ot that of the USA...It prevents Parliamentary gridlock.

This quote gets back to that tired PAD-Dem mantra of a Parliamentary dictatorship.....For them it is a Parliamentray dictatorship until they win an election and are the Parliamentary governing majority...Than it magically ceases to be one.

They can do whatever they want?.........a true anti-democracy notion...Completely ignores the reality of needing the go before the electorate within a clearly specified time.

[Fryslan boppe]

"He said if the Democrat Party agreed to take part in a new election, it could bring about a government that could kick-start reform and which served only one year before another election under the new reform was called."

and then

"Nuttawut said if the UDD gained victory, it would reform independent agencies, especially on their power to remove political office holders."

despite my confusion about the UDD ever being able to reform independent agencies, this is the reform they want.

seriously bad idea...

"seriously bad idea.."

De-politicizing independent organizations and the judiciary so their deliberations are respected by all, is a seriously bad idea?.

[dickyknee]

"He said if the Democrat Party agreed to take part in a new election, it could bring about a government that could kick-start reform and which served only one year before another election under the new reform was called."

and then

"Nuttawut said if the UDD gained victory, it would reform independent agencies, especially on their power to remove political office holders."

despite my confusion about the UDD ever being able to reform independent agencies, this is the reform they want.

seriously bad idea...

"seriously bad idea.."

De-politicizing independent organizations and the judiciary so their deliberations are respected by all, is a seriously bad idea?.

not de-politicising, but re-politicising... Or removing, as Nuttawut said.

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

Edited March 24, 2014 by dickyknee