On The Ball

[redrus]

Good articles in the MEN and Guardian.

Stuart Brennan in the Evening News:

Not every football fan in England is hanging on every word about Wayne Rooney's metatarsal. In fact, it's fair to say that a sizeable chunk of the Red half of Manchester is praying that the Scouse sensation does NOT recover in time for the World Cup.

For many United fans, the matter is simple. Rooney has to be fit for the start of the Premiership season - otherwise the Reds risk another campaign of vainly chasing Chelsea.

But the indifference of many United fans to England goes way beyond the tug of war over Rooney.

Mancunians have always been a feisty lot, never afraid to question authority or stand up to injustice - hence the Peterloo massacre, or the mill workers' refusal to handle Confederate cotton during the American Civil War, in solidarity with the slaves.

It is a city proud of its own identity and tradition, and suspicious of the motives of the capital city, whether that be the Government or the Football Association.

And the fact that Manchester has always been an immigrant city, with waves of Flemish, Irish, Jewish, Levantine, German and Italian people settling here since the 14th century, has perhaps caused many of us to have a suspicious view of patriotism.

The old Stretford End banner reading "Republic of Mancunia" perhaps sums it up - Manchester has tended to see itself as a city apart in many ways, in football as in culture and politics.

By the Seventies England was starting to be perceived as just another southern team - and not a particularly good one.

An England under-23 match at Old Trafford in 1976 had the Stretford End cheering when one of the five United players in the team touched the ball, and booing when any other England player did. They ended with a plaintive chant of "We'd rather watch United..."

In the Eighties Gary Bailey, Steve Coppell and Neil Webb all had their careers cut short through injuries they received playing for their country, while Bryan Robson also suffered.

By the Nineties, United were the biggest thing in English football so any doubts that United supporters might need a second-rate second team had been blown away.

England are the FA's team, rather than the nation's, and the FA is heavily influenced by anti-United forces, not least Arsenal and David Dein, who is a vice-chairman of both. So the reasoning goes.

Of course, the situation is not black and white. There are United fans who will be in Germany supporting England, and there are those who will be desperate for them to get knocked out as soon as possible, and in between there is a mass of supporters who will want England to do well or who could not care less.

Most of those in that middling group would not want England to do well if it meant risking Rooney for United next season.

Nicky Campbell in the Guardian:

Like an estranged partner excluded from the birth of his child, Sven-Goran Eriksson and his staff were kept away from Wayne Rooney's hospital scan last week by Sir Alex Ferguson. I half expected the Swede to don an overwashed Superman costume and scale Big Ben in protest.

Many would like to shove Rooney's right foot down the Govan gob but, in putting club well before country, Ferguson is no different from thousands of English fans. Are they bothered about Germany? Not much.

In the next few weeks the streets of England will come to resemble Portadown and the Shankhill Road but would you rather your team won the Champions League or England won the greatest tournament of all?

I asked that very question of Mark Longdon, the chairman of the Independent Manchester United Supporters Association. He just laughed at me. "I would rather Man Utd won the Worthington Cup than England won the World Cup."

And I thought the Jocks were bad. (but, read on)

Of course United fans' resentment at how David Beckham was received at other grounds after France 98 lingers like a bad smell and Old Trafford players get a miserable reception from sections of the Eng-er-land following but there is also a huge element of that most divine English comedy - snobbery.

Mark says: "You very rarely see supporters of the big clubs at England games. It's club sides who never play in Europe and their fans get a taste of the buzz. Little teams like Bolton and Manchester City. TNS Solutions is their idea of a European tie. Quality."

So where dost thrive unwavering devotion to the noble cause of "this royal throne of kings, this sceptred isle, this earth of majesty, this seat of Mars . . . this England"?

I dropped a league and spoke to Charles Ross, editor of the excellent Wolves fanzine, A Load of Old Bull, and he gave me none. "I would rather Wolves had finished sixth and made the play-offs than England win the World Cup. For proper football fans it is club every time. I have got friends who are England supporters and go to get the points but they would far rather see Wolves do well."

And just like that old sketch about the English class system - "He looks down at me and I look down at him" - Ross added: "But for the followers of the little clubs it is a lovely day out, so good luck to them."

I have an image of a St George's cross hanging near some corner flag of a foreign field emblazoned with the words "Kidderminster Harriers FC". Would Alan Shepherd, the chairman of the Kidderminster Harriers Supporters Trust prefer Kiddy to be in the Football League or Becks to hold up the Holy Grail.

"No contest." At last, I thought, a true patriot. I was wrong. "It's Kidderminster first, the supporters trust XI second and England a poor third."

redrus

Edited June 3, 2006 by redrus

[ThaiPauly]

Strange...but true.....never crossed my mind before.

Yeah, I am watching the England game now and the flags begind the goals are Bristol City and some other lowly club I can't remember..no Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool or United banners

Thanks for posting RR

Nice to see Crouch got a cheer when they read the teams out over the tannoy.

But his gola celebration... whats all that about??????

TP

[redrus]

Strange...but true.....never crossed my mind before.

Yeah, I am watching the England game now and the flags begind the goals are Bristol City and some other lowly club I can't remember..no Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool or United banners

Thanks for posting RR (no worries, my pleasure)

Nice to see Crouch got a cheer when they read the teams out over the tannoy. (He's not a bad lad, just not sure he's good enough)

But his gola celebration... whats all that about??????

TP

Its a dance he, by his own admission, performed at The Beckhams pre WC party. I have no idea why.....

Lets hope he confounds the doubters (me included) and performs it more.

redrus

[jackr]

I dropped a league and spoke to Charles Ross, editor of the excellent Wolves fanzine, A Load of Old Bull, and he gave me none. "I would rather Wolves had finished sixth and made the play-offs than England win the World Cup. For proper football fans it is club every time. I have got friends who are England supporters and go to get the points but they would far rather see Wolves do well."

redrus

The Wolves fanzine editor would rather see Wolves make the play-offs than England win the most coveted accolade in the world of football which only comes around once every four years?

C'mon, I understand the affinity with one's club must run deep if football is your life, but why don't people think before they speak. Is the editor a Jock?

[Thaipwriter]

Red half of Manchester is praying that the Scouse sensation does NOT recover in time for the World Cup.

This line almost gives you the impression that some Manchester United supporters actually live in Manchester.

What a ridiculous notion!

[redrus]

Red half of Manchester is praying that the Scouse sensation does NOT recover in time for the World Cup.

This line almost gives you the impression that some Manchester United supporters actually live in Manchester.

What a ridiculous notion!

LOL, Thaipwriter, I'd like to take that bait but.............

redrus

[redrus]

In the next few weeks the streets of England will come to resemble Portadown and the Shankhill Road but would you rather your team won the Champions League or England won the greatest tournament of all?

I asked that very question of Mark Longdon, the chairman of the Independent Manchester United Supporters Association. He just laughed at me. "I would rather Man Utd won the Worthington Cup than England won the World Cup." Do you think this guy is joking....?

redrus

I dropped a league and spoke to Charles Ross, editor of the excellent Wolves fanzine, A Load of Old Bull, and he gave me none. "I would rather Wolves had finished sixth and made the play-offs than England win the World Cup. For proper football fans it is club every time. I have got friends who are England supporters and go to get the points but they would far rather see Wolves do well."

redrus

The Wolves fanzine editor would rather see Wolves make the play-offs than England win the most coveted accolade in the world of football which only comes around once every four years?

C'mon, I understand the affinity with one's club must run deep if football is your life, but why don't people think before they speak. Is the editor a Jock?

There are a lot of people in England that feel that way Jack, it is not uncommon.

I hope England do well but, at the end of the day/season, its United that carry me week by week through thick and thin, good and bad. It is they that make me cringe, it is they that also fill me with joy.

Proud I will be if England do well or, even win. United is my bread and butter, my family, my everyday love. Not the four year affair/other woman.

redrus

[jackr]

In the next few weeks the streets of England will come to resemble Portadown and the Shankhill Road but would you rather your team won the Champions League or England won the greatest tournament of all?

I asked that very question of Mark Longdon, the chairman of the Independent Manchester United Supporters Association. He just laughed at me. "I would rather Man Utd won the Worthington Cup than England won the World Cup." Do you think this guy is joking....?

redrus

I dropped a league and spoke to Charles Ross, editor of the excellent Wolves fanzine, A Load of Old Bull, and he gave me none. "I would rather Wolves had finished sixth and made the play-offs than England win the World Cup. For proper football fans it is club every time. I have got friends who are England supporters and go to get the points but they would far rather see Wolves do well."

redrus

The Wolves fanzine editor would rather see Wolves make the play-offs than England win the most coveted accolade in the world of football which only comes around once every four years?

C'mon, I understand the affinity with one's club must run deep if football is your life, but why don't people think before they speak. Is the editor a Jock?

There are a lot of people in England that feel that way Jack, it is not uncommon.

I hope England do well but, at the end of the day/season, its United that carry me week by week through thick and thin, good and bad. It is they that make me cringe, it is they that also fill me with joy.

Proud I will be if England do well or, even win. United is my bread and butter, my family, my everyday love. Not the four year affair/other woman.

redrus

Can't argue with that if you're a once-man-woman... uh, i mean

[redrus]

In the next few weeks the streets of England will come to resemble Portadown and the Shankhill Road but would you rather your team won the Champions League or England won the greatest tournament of all?

I asked that very question of Mark Longdon, the chairman of the Independent Manchester United Supporters Association. He just laughed at me. "I would rather Man Utd won the Worthington Cup than England won the World Cup." Do you think this guy is joking....?

redrus

I dropped a league and spoke to Charles Ross, editor of the excellent Wolves fanzine, A Load of Old Bull, and he gave me none. "I would rather Wolves had finished sixth and made the play-offs than England win the World Cup. For proper football fans it is club every time. I have got friends who are England supporters and go to get the points but they would far rather see Wolves do well."

redrus

The Wolves fanzine editor would rather see Wolves make the play-offs than England win the most coveted accolade in the world of football which only comes around once every four years?

C'mon, I understand the affinity with one's club must run deep if football is your life, but why don't people think before they speak. Is the editor a Jock?

There are a lot of people in England that feel that way Jack, it is not uncommon.

I hope England do well but, at the end of the day/season, its United that carry me week by week through thick and thin, good and bad. It is they that make me cringe, it is they that also fill me with joy.

Proud I will be if England do well or, even win. United is my bread and butter, my family, my everyday love. Not the four year affair/other woman.

redrus

Can't argue with that if you're a once-man-woman... uh, i mean

not once though mate.....

redrus

[jackr]

In the next few weeks the streets of England will come to resemble Portadown and the Shankhill Road but would you rather your team won the Champions League or England won the greatest tournament of all?

I asked that very question of Mark Longdon, the chairman of the Independent Manchester United Supporters Association. He just laughed at me. "I would rather Man Utd won the Worthington Cup than England won the World Cup." Do you think this guy is joking....?

redrus

I dropped a league and spoke to Charles Ross, editor of the excellent Wolves fanzine, A Load of Old Bull, and he gave me none. "I would rather Wolves had finished sixth and made the play-offs than England win the World Cup. For proper football fans it is club every time. I have got friends who are England supporters and go to get the points but they would far rather see Wolves do well."

redrus

The Wolves fanzine editor would rather see Wolves make the play-offs than England win the most coveted accolade in the world of football which only comes around once every four years?

C'mon, I understand the affinity with one's club must run deep if football is your life, but why don't people think before they speak. Is the editor a Jock?

There are a lot of people in England that feel that way Jack, it is not uncommon.

I hope England do well but, at the end of the day/season, its United that carry me week by week through thick and thin, good and bad. It is they that make me cringe, it is they that also fill me with joy.

Proud I will be if England do well or, even win. United is my bread and butter, my family, my everyday love. Not the four year affair/other woman.

redrus

Can't argue with that if you're a once-man-woman... uh, i mean

not once though mate.....

redrus

Ooops, that's what happens after many flagons of Tiger

[lampard10]

not least Arsenal and David Dein, who is a vice-chairman of both.

Not any more.....Arsenal sacked him. They have now appointed Uniteds David Gill.

[Spit the Dog]

Strange...but true.....never crossed my mind before.

Yeah, I am watching the England game now and the flags begind the goals are Bristol City and some other lowly club I can't remember..no Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool or United banners

Fans of the Chelsea, Arsenal, Man Utd and Liverpool probaly don't travel as much to England games because they can watch their teams playing in great stadiums around Europe every season. Some of them even win trophies from time to time. It also must be difficult for a Liverpool fan to cheer a crunching Gary Neville tackle or a Utd fan celebrating a Steven Gerrard goal.

Anyway, the likleyhood of Bristol City or Kiddeminster Harriers getting into Europ is virtually nil. So following England is their only chance of watching football around Europe.

[Sunderland]

Strange...but true.....never crossed my mind before.

Yeah, I am watching the England game now and the flags begind the goals are Bristol City and some other lowly club I can't remember..no Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool or United banners

Fans of the Chelsea, Arsenal, Man Utd and Liverpool probaly don't travel as much to England games because they can watch their teams playing in great stadiums around Europe every season. Some of them even win trophies from time to time. It also must be difficult for a Liverpool fan to cheer a crunching Gary Neville tackle or a Utd fan celebrating a Steven Gerrard goal.

Anyway, the likleyhood of Bristol City or Kiddeminster Harriers getting into Europ is virtually nil. So following England is their only chance of watching football around Europe.

Whereas following the mighty Falkirk in Europe is an annual event ...

Though I will be cheering for England, I would rather see Sunderland win more than 2 games in a season than England win the World Cup. Realistically, the chances of England winning the World Cup are as likely as Sunderland being taken over by Niall Quinn, appointing Martin O'Neill as manager, winning promotion and the FA Cup at the first time of asking and then embarking on a glorious domestic and European campaign where they climb to the top of the Premier League and then go on to win the Champions League in a thrilling 5-0 defeat of AC Milan/Barcelona/Whoever in the final.

On the subject of the winners, I'm with Spit on this one ... Brazil to win for the second time on European soil. Failing that I am going with Spain as an unexpected outsider.

Edited June 4, 2006 by Sunderland

[redrus]

not least Arsenal and David Dein, who is a vice-chairman of both.

Not any more.....Arsenal sacked him. They have now appointed Uniteds David Gill.

Mr Dein did nothing to help his own case.....!

redrus

*Have Arsenal sacked him though Lamps, thought he was just sacked from the FA by the FA....?

Edited June 5, 2006 by redrus