Losing temper with Thai staff

[geriatrickid]

Best is to come up with an intelligent sarcastic remark and deliver the punch whilst staying as cool as possible...

Admirable, but success would be predicated upon the intended target understanding sarcasm.

Perhaps a gong or embarrassing sound as heard on Thai TV shows would be more effective.

[MidoriApple]

for the OP,

Don't ever make apology

Call your wife (if she has authority in work) or her parents to make warning to her to stop that immature reaction.

Action = Reaction, acts the same way as her, if she insists playing the game, then play with her, ignorance, work normal.

And we will see who will win this game.

After warning, and she remains being childish, then fire her. MUST DO, especially because she is part of family.

May be time to prove your power of control.

same that one opinion here that, don't invest in the waste thing, in this case is she is waste human resource for your biz.

[ronthai]

Thank you for the comments, even the scathing ones.

Of course I know I was wrong but I don't think I will fire myself, not just yet anyway. But I think it has shown me that it is time for a break as this is not normally my style, hence the post.

Wouldn't worry to much about it.

It is never nice to loose your temper, but then working with Thai staff can be very draining, hence I think it is understandable to loose your temper, but of course you/we prefer not to.

Thais among each other also loose tempers and live continues an hour or day later.

As some say a private chat in the office would have been better, but I am sure you have done that many many times already, because some Thai staff you just have to keep telling the same thing over and over again, which gets frustrating.

When staff is also family, they tend to abuse that fact.

Edited March 25, 2014 by ronthai

[thailiketoo]

for the OP,

Don't ever make apology

Call your wife (if she has authority in work) or her parents to make warning to her to stop that immature reaction.

Action = Reaction, acts the same way as her, if she insists playing the game, then play with her, ignorance, work normal.

And we will see who will win this game.

After warning, and she remains being childish, then fire her. MUST DO, especially because she is part of family.

May be time to prove your power of control.

same that one opinion here that, don't invest in the waste thing, in this case is she is waste human resource for your biz.

I think I saw you on the Jeremy Kyle show. Yes?

Make a mistake. Apologize quickly and get on with life. If not see, Bill Clinton impeachment. Richard Nixon resignation. How much to tip maid? See ,New York v. Strauss-Kahn.

[Moouan]

After 12 years in Thailand I don't think I have ever known any Thai to hold up their hand and say 'sorry I made a mistake'.

Thai is a culture of no responsibility, everything is somebody else's fault.

You catch someone in a lie or dishonest action and you are at fault for exposing it.

"I stabbed him to death because he looked at me in a funny way and thought he might have a knife", ergo it was his fault!

Enjoy living here but despair for the future of Thailand and Thai people, third world population with a third world mentality.

God knows what will happen after ASEAN opens up the borders.

[thailiketoo]

After 12 years in Thailand I don't think I have ever known any Thai to hold up their hand and say 'sorry I made a mistake'.

Thai is a culture of no responsibility, everything is somebody else's fault.

You catch someone in a lie or dishonest action and you are at fault for exposing it.

"I stabbed him to death because he looked at me in a funny way and thought he might have a knife", ergo it was his fault!

Enjoy living here but despair for the future of Thailand and Thai people, third world population with a third world mentality.

God knows what will happen after ASEAN opens up the borders.

khaawR tho:htF example sentence

"I apologize" — "I'm sorry" — "Excuse me" — "Pardon me."

phohmR siiaR jaiM example sentence "I'm sorry."

siiaR jaiM maakF verb, phrase

deplore; to be very sorry

I hear these every day.

Edited March 25, 2014 by thailiketoo

[h90]

Well I saw it more often in Chinese Thai companies without Farangs. Some of these companies are extreme powerful.....If I am not wrong companies big like Singha or Red Bull (I am not sure if it is the case in these two companies, just for example) are managed like that.

Of course, what you describe exist as well. In fact the woman is than the real boss and success depends on her management skills.

You wrote, "(I am not sure if it is the case in these two companies, just for example)" Why would you post that? You have no idea if you are right or wrong. You are just starting another anti Thai rumor. Why?

I could say, "the sky is falling. I am not sure if that is the case just for example" Why are you doing chicken little stuff about Thai business?

They are Chinese not Thai

[seajae]

the amount of appologists in here is bullsh*t, when you own and run a business you do it your way, you dont change your methods purely because the staff are not able to do as they are told, you fire them. As a boss you want things done your way unless you can be shown a better one, it has nothing to do with losing face or thainess what so ever. If people want to apply for the jobs then they need to do what you tell them, not what they want, if they can come up with a better way to do it fine but you never should change simply because they will get their feelings hurt if you admonish them for doing the wrong thing. Why even start a business if you are going to let the staff control what you do and how it runs, this is the same the world over, every private business is run the way the owner/boss wants it too, corporate businesses are different but not when it is a small owner operated one. If thais are not able to do what you want and have to be childish and hide behind a pillow, you replace them with someone that can do what they are told, no ifs, no buts, no maybe's. I worked by myself before my injury because I could not find a tradesman that would do the job my way, it was my perogative and also my name on every job I did and no one was going to take away all the hard work I did to get there because they didnt want to do what I told them, I was fussy and it had to be perfect or not done at all.

[MidoriApple]

for the OP,

Don't ever make apology....

I think I saw you on the Jeremy Kyle show. Yes?

Make a mistake. Apologize quickly and get on with life. If not see, Bill Clinton impeachment. Richard Nixon resignation. How much to tip maid? See ,New York v. Strauss-Kahn.

Nope, that wasn't me.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Donnie Brasco]

She came to work for you because she was currently unemployed.

This means she was fresh out of school, unemployable, unconnected, unpresentable, stoopid, useless or all of the above.

She is under the mistaken impression that she need not relate to you or allow you to relate to her in any meaningful way.

What, exactly was her job description ??

What were the consequences of her mistake

OR

Is this more of an attitude problem, ie is she just waiting for an opening in another company ? First job out of school ?

Pulling a face anytime she's given a task ?

Facebooking, downloading Korean TV series (on your dime and your time) and burning CD's of them for her friends ?

Introducing viruses into your intranet or otherwise breaching security, when she should be working at her job ?

Failing to record details of customer enquiry ?

Chatting on "Line" rather than working or right in your face (instead of answering a direct question) ?

Listening to music and eating giggling, laughing and talking loudly at any and ALL hours of the day.

Chatting with friends on her mobile instead of answering calls.

Interrupting client calls to chat with friends.

Late for work ALL the time.

Distracting others who actually really want to focus on their jobs.

Using family gossip, racist disrespectful remarks, ridicule and exclusionary ritual to team-build other employees against your authority ?

All because she thinks that her "family connection" trumps any obligation she has to do anything but aggrandize herself ?

Many more . . . . . But you get the idea.

There's PLENTY you can do.

And you should do it.

Thais-style PASSIVE-AGGRESSIVE acting out are a luxury no business can afford.

Put a mop, bucket, cleaning cloths, duster, spray bottle of cleanser, and (best of all) a nice copra TOILET BRUSH next to her desk along with the suggestion that it is really the most convenient place to store it.

"Sometimes, 'fuggedabowdit' just means fuggedabowdit. . . . "

Edited March 25, 2014 by Donnie Brasco

[thailiketoo]

Well I saw it more often in Chinese Thai companies without Farangs. Some of these companies are extreme powerful.....If I am not wrong companies big like Singha or Red Bull (I am not sure if it is the case in these two companies, just for example) are managed like that.

Of course, what you describe exist as well. In fact the woman is than the real boss and success depends on her management skills.

You wrote, "(I am not sure if it is the case in these two companies, just for example)" Why would you post that? You have no idea if you are right or wrong. You are just starting another anti Thai rumor. Why?

I could say, "the sky is falling. I am not sure if that is the case just for example" Why are you doing chicken little stuff about Thai business?

They are Chinese not Thai

You wrote, "Well I saw it more often in Chinese Thai companies without Farangs. Some of these companies are extreme powerful.....If I am not wrong companies big like Singha or Red Bull."

Of course they are Thai. Chinese Thai is Thai. Irish American is American.

[rtco]

There is a big void between Thai staff and their bosses ... even Thai bosses.

I have an experience where I was asked to go in and run a Project Management Office (PMO) for a Thai company. The PMO staff were all Thai as was the big boss. There was a big issue about expectations ... it was expected that I pull a solution "out of my back pocket" which would work. No chance. Even with the best models/methodologies in the world if you don't have any buy-in or even understanding of what you are trying to do it is impossible to implement something here. The tools & techniques of Thai business are very much embryonic and lack the structure and robustness of the way Western businesses are run.

My approach was to try and work in collaboration with the Thai PMO staff to see if we could come to some kind of compromise and agreed way of working going forward ... this approach was working but was taking time. Despite many frustrations I never lost my temper but I did ask pointed questions and referred to many inefficiencies and ineffective approaches. Unfortunately the "time" issue was a big deal with the big boss who wanted something implemented quickly.

Anyway to cut a long story short ... I "threw in the towel" because I could not see me delivering something in the timescales expected by the big boss given the quality of the staff I had at my disposal and the sometimes archaic ways of working.

[lostinsurin]

Apologize to her in front of the same people you chastised her in front of.

I think you are "wrong as you often am"

I think you are judging it from a western perspective/judgement.

khunpa has got it spot on.

If the apology is in front of the staff she regains face, which is not western thinking.

[fvw53]

Totally know the feeling. It seems very uncool to lose it here. But at the same time, Thais can be very forgiving. They understand we're all just human and everyone has their bad days. I suggest rolling with it, rather than making a big deal about an apology. Maybe just a small, private gesture to let your employee know you appreaciate him/her.

...I hope those "forgiving" and "understanding" ways infiltrates the mind of the hot tempered red and yellow shirts who divide not only the country but also my Thai family

[Krataiboy]

Losing face? It happens all the time, with Thais dishing out the insults. Thai teachers yell at and beat children (although it is against the law), parents scream at and beat their own children, employers berate and abuse staff and the newspapers here are full of stories about disputes between Thais which end in violence, and often injury or death.

But you are a falang, an alien and of a lower order; therefore you are expected to follow unwritten rules which have long since been abandoned by those who framed them.

Being able to take criticism is part of growing up. But the complaint should be delivered in a courteous and considerate manner. Whenever I have done this, I have generally received a reasonable reaction. On the rare occasions I have "lost it", the recipient of the criticism has become sullen and resentful and the situation has got worse rather than better.

The "losing face" syndrome which caused the pillow incident in the initial posting is linked to the laudable Thai concept of kreung jai, which is about not hurting anybody's feelings. As a general principle, this is a commendable idea, but in practice it inhibits legitimate critisism - which is one reason why Thai has such a poor reputation for customer service.

Initially, my Thai stepchildren reacted with anger and resentment when I pointed out mistakes in their English homework. But after I explained the rationale behind what I was doing and that making mistakes is perfectly natural and acceptable and actually the ONLY way to learn anything, they gradually came round to accepting criticism as fair and normal.

But it cannot be emphasised enough that the manner in which criticism or a complaint is delivered is crucially important - as numerous Thais and falangs have found to their cost, even, on occasions, paying for their boorishness with their lives.

[harrry]

1. Boss is boss.

2. Termination if people will not accept this.

3. Politeness should be used but does not excuse the reason you blew up.

4. There are many million people in this counry. Many do want to work.

[thailiketoo]

1. Boss is boss.

2. Termination if people will not accept this.

3. Politeness should be used but does not excuse the reason you blew up.

4. There are many million people in this counry. Many do want to work.

Thailand has no unemployment. All the people who want to work are working. Thailand is importing millions of workers from Burma, and Cambodia.

Better be very polite unless you speak Burmese and Khmer.

[harrry]

1. Boss is boss.

2. Termination if people will not accept this.

3. Politeness should be used but does not excuse the reason you blew up.

4. There are many million people in this counry. Many do want to work.

Thailand has no unemployment. All the people who want to work are working. Thailand is importing millions of workers from Burma, and Cambodia.

Better be very polite unless you speak Burmese and Khmer.

Thailand has no unemployment because many are happy to work for a couple of hours a day sitting down selling goods...or rather sleeping while waiting for them to be sold. There are people who will work a proper job.

[h90]

Losing face? It happens all the time, with Thais dishing out the insults. Thai teachers yell at and beat children (although it is against the law), parents scream at and beat their own children, employers berate and abuse staff and the newspapers here are full of stories about disputes between Thais which end in violence, and often injury or death.

But you are a falang, an alien and of a lower order; therefore you are expected to follow unwritten rules which have long since been abandoned by those who framed them.

Being able to take criticism is part of growing up. But the complaint should be delivered in a courteous and considerate manner. Whenever I have done this, I have generally received a reasonable reaction. On the rare occasions I have "lost it", the recipient of the criticism has become sullen and resentful and the situation has got worse rather than better.

The "losing face" syndrome which caused the pillow incident in the initial posting is linked to the laudable Thai concept of kreung jai, which is about not hurting anybody's feelings. As a general principle, this is a commendable idea, but in practice it inhibits legitimate critisism - which is one reason why Thai has such a poor reputation for customer service.

Initially, my Thai stepchildren reacted with anger and resentment when I pointed out mistakes in their English homework. But after I explained the rationale behind what I was doing and that making mistakes is perfectly natural and acceptable and actually the ONLY way to learn anything, they gradually came round to accepting criticism as fair and normal.

But it cannot be emphasised enough that the manner in which criticism or a complaint is delivered is crucially important - as numerous Thais and falangs have found to their cost, even, on occasions, paying for their boorishness with their lives.

My wife (Chinese Thai) often point out to the staff that in the office there is no place for personal feelings, likings, friendship or anything like that. The point is to service the customer and get the work done as fast as possible. It is neither a feel well place, even less a place where mobbing can happen....

Any criticism, no matter if fair or unfair is not personal, it is to improve the customer service and ensure that we make enough money to get everyone paid.

Who can't accept it, is out.

But again we are technical company, where people are naturally more rough and more logic. As well most are from the South who are also more used to rough speaking. Most probably the same style wouldn't work in a Spa.

As you mention customer service....A big problem is that if staff feels they are right and the customer is wrong, they really don't like to simply replace things for free, no matter who is right, just because it isn't worth it.....My advice "Just say YES and send him a new one free of charge." isn't easy to swallow.....

[Daniel Boon]

'madmitch' ... I say something to all the staff along the lines that finances were a bit patchy and want to be able to keep them all on....

[thailiketoo]

1. Boss is boss.

2. Termination if people will not accept this.

3. Politeness should be used but does not excuse the reason you blew up.

4. There are many million people in this counry. Many do want to work.

Thailand has no unemployment. All the people who want to work are working. Thailand is importing millions of workers from Burma, and Cambodia.

Better be very polite unless you speak Burmese and Khmer.

Thailand has no unemployment because many are happy to work for a couple of hours a day sitting down selling goods...or rather sleeping while waiting for them to be sold. There are people who will work a proper job.

Harry they have almost free food and booze and sex why would they need a proper job?

I agree there are people who are willing to work in Thailand who are not now employed and they are Burmese and Cambodian. Heck I see hundreds of them every day.

[kennypowers]

She is shy, she lost face and she doesn't want to see you – thus the pillow reaction.

According to cultural rules:

You shouldn't have lost it, but you are the boss and have to be careful how you fix the situation so that you don't lose respect and face.

1. Don't apologise in front of everybody. You are the boss and this would be deemed a very strange and somewhat weak gesture in the eyes of the other employees.

2. Certainly do NOT wai her as an apology.

3. Do apologise to her for shouting, but do not excuse any wrong doing on her part.

4. Continue absolutely as normal, asserting your authority in your usual way.

[Travel Dude]

Public humiliation is unexcusable ! You are the one who should be fired, you took advantage of the family relationship too by treating her that way.

You need to really look at yourself, more than the staff performance, very poor example you have set them.

Are you working here Charlie? Do you have a Thai team? If so did it never occur to you to loose your temper because some of your employee seems not to care?

I wouldn't bother too much.

[madmitch]

This has turned into a more interesting thread than I expected, with many differing opinions.

All is OK this morning with the staff member seemingly working much better than usual, so perhaps my loss of temper (which wasn't rude and abusive, by the way) had the desired effect....for now.

I have use the "let it all blow over" approach suggested by many, which is not what I would have done in similar circumstances in England, where the "quiet word" approach would have been my preferred option.

[JenniferSG]

I worked for a Thai company in the U.S. back in the 80's, and the telexes we got from BKK were hysterical. "Lady cross legs all times." "No hit coworker." I kid you not. It was like employees were expected to be childish and management expected to speak to them as parents would. I also encountered the face covering. Mai pen rai. All you can do is behave as if nothing has happened as your ripping that person's face off (a term used by my coworkers) is not something that they will soon recover from. It's a great shame and everyone they work with will think less of them for having suffered that shame. I often wondered if karma had something to do with that. If you are shamed, perhaps you deserved it, so we'll all think less of you - sort of thing. You can't undo what has been done, so don't make it worse by appearing weak. Then you give credence to the idea that the person is a victim and you are wrong, and if you are wrong your staff will respect you less. It's all very counter to Western ideas, but you're not in the west anymore.

[chrisinth]

Mitch, I feel for you. Makes me laugh all the people who say you should accept the blame for the event because in a moment of weakness you lost it. However, you recognize that, what has happened has happened, no turning back the clock, it is done.

Over the next couple of days, make it a point to give the girl some tasks, important enough to show her (and the others) that you still trust her and in turn she will trust you again. No apologies, just go with the flow.

Forget culture, it is all about respect and trust, if these fail then the culture bit will take over. I for one have been working here long enough to recognize these as the key factors without having to use culture as an excuse for not seeing that something is wrong.

If you need to be, be optimistic about what has happened; you have demonstrated in front of the staff that if you can confront a member of the family like that, what would happen if they screw up.

On a footnote, it would be interesting to see how many people making the suggestion that you immediately fire the girl have had experience of working in Thailand, with Thais, and what their suggestions would be for getting a replacement at short notice for someone in a key position.

Still smiling to myself about that...................

[eldragon]

Totally know the feeling. It seems very uncool to lose it here. But at the same time, Thais can be very forgiving. They understand we're all just human and everyone has their bad days. I suggest rolling with it, rather than making a big deal about an apology. Maybe just a small, private gesture to let your employee know you appreaciate him/her.

...I hope those "forgiving" and "understanding" ways infiltrates the mind of the hot tempered red and yellow shirts who divide not only the country but also my Thai family

I probably should've said "...with regards to day to day issues." Seems a bit easier to rebuild your reputation here than it does back in the west.

Best of luck with your family issues, mate.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[h90]

I worked for a Thai company in the U.S. back in the 80's, and the telexes we got from BKK were hysterical. "Lady cross legs all times." "No hit coworker." I kid you not. It was like employees were expected to be childish and management expected to speak to them as parents would. I also encountered the face covering. Mai pen rai. All you can do is behave as if nothing has happened as your ripping that person's face off (a term used by my coworkers) is not something that they will soon recover from. It's a great shame and everyone they work with will think less of them for having suffered that shame. I often wondered if karma had something to do with that. If you are shamed, perhaps you deserved it, so we'll all think less of you - sort of thing. You can't undo what has been done, so don't make it worse by appearing weak. Then you give credence to the idea that the person is a victim and you are wrong, and if you are wrong your staff will respect you less. It's all very counter to Western ideas, but you're not in the west anymore.

Well, making a real big mistake is a big shame.

That is exactly the culture...you lost face by doing terrible wrong....

What I heard sometimes, is that the rest of the staff also gets the same blame for let it happen....

Than the boss has to call that lost customer, admits that they did wrong, loose face himself. If the customer is Chinese he'll get a terrible ear full get explained all the wrong doings of the last 20 years and the question why he is unable to manage his staff better.....

[unanimosity]

Do what a Thai would do : fire her with zero pay.

Amen.

[minikev]

If you apologies in front of the other staff it will show that whatever you got mad about was unimportant and open the door for others to do the same as she did. Whatever that was. It will show you as weak and you will lose respect (here). I see an apology as strength but in my years here I have come to see that Thai's very rarely say sorry and always wait till you say it first.

You should stay silent the other staff will have a new way of looking at you. They will not want to face the same treatment and yes you should never lose your temper with staff but what is done is done.

It's interesting to see some of the remarks. I feel sure the people who say shouting is OK would last about 6 months in business here. I have run my business here for 6 yrs on the occasions I have had a sharp word to say the staff generally just leave without letting me know they have done so.

The staff that are with me know my temperament and although generally they drive me crazy by doing something the way they want to rather than my way somehow the job gets done.