Vegetarians live... less long

[wolf5370]

I am Vegetarian for the simple reason, I feel I don't have the right to take a life just to eat it.

I do eat eggs but I don't feel that's a life yet.

I drink Alchol and enjoy it,

58 years old and in good health.. I think..

So let's see how long I live, shall keeps yous posted...

Life is all about choices and this is my choice.. I don't preach about it, I just get on with it...

There are many types of "vegetarian" - from the very extreme (Jainism - where can only east fruit and veg that grows above ground level and only when it has dropped naturally!) to those that just abstain from red meat, but eat white. I would suggest that both extremes need care to manage the correct intake of nutrients, vitamins, etc.

I am a pescatarian - i.e. I eat fish and sea food, but not mammals or birds. I have been so by choice when I was 20, now just over half my life. So I get a good source of protein with little fat - I drink fat free cow's milk or soy milk (prefer cow's) - have coffee/tea black and without sugar - but still have to be careful with respect to fat/sugar in take as I tend to eat a lot of baked items (bread mostly). It was worse in the UK as a lot of veggie food is processed and comes loaded with sugar and fat!

Do you eat eggs? What is the reason of your diet? Moral...not killing these animals? If you look how milk is produced...it is very ugly.

I eat almost only meat, but I am very disturbed by the way meat is produced. And there are no organic options available in Thailand. I'll open a new thread on this one.

Yes I eat eggs - I try and get free range, but not so easy here in Thailand - I get them indirectly (local mom n pop store) from a local farm, best I can do here (other than buying my own chickens I guess). Dairy is treated much better than meat animals by the way - they have to be as stressed animals give sour milk (or none). In the UK I had milk and eggs (and veg) from a local free range farm - they delivered too - it was possible to go see the farm and see how the animals were treated too.

I stopped eating meat (other than fish/sf) at Uni - it was the late 80s and anti-vivisection/anti-fox hunting/ant-seal bashing/anti-animal testing/anti-waling/anti-poaching/anti-Chinese medicine/ant-inhumane slaughter houses and farming practices/etc were the order of the day; with pamphlets, posters, books and films everywhere showing how the animals were injected with hormones and drugs to combat their poor conditions, badly treated, spitefully killed, etc - much has improved in the UK over the years, but after almost 25 years not eating meat, just the thought of it turns my stomach - in fact the smell of KFC makes me want to puke. I was less concerned with the fact that animals are killed to feed humans, such is nature - but with the way the animals are treated before hand, and the deed is done. It is not really surprising many reports show that too much meat is bad for you, given the stress the animals are under and the masses of antibiotics and hormones given them - sure the scientists test randomly and say the amounts are safe - similar scientist told the same story about cigarettes, radon, lead pipes, and so on for decades - until they were found out to be well paid liars.

My kids eat meat by the way. I made my choice and I am happy with it - they can make their own when they are ready (or not). I don't believe in forcing my views down other people's throats. My eldest daughter, like you, eats mostly meat; she is also very fussy.

[JSixpack]

A lot of vegetarians think there is no death to their food.

Might want to read this.

http://www.care2.com/causes/do-vegetarians-kill-more-animals-than-meat-eaters.html

[Kitsune]

<< Raising plants on that same acre of rangeland kills small mammals, snakes, lizards, mice and other animals.>>

Yeah right like it's anything comparable to the millions of animals slaughtered for the wrong reason on a daily basis.

[Kitsune]

1/ You get your fatty acids from fish that contain PCB, dioxins, and mercury, we get it safely from yeast/algae.

2/ Vitamin D could be a supplement to take as a vegetarian yes, no big deal a pill every now and then, that is if you don't get 15 minutes at least of sun exposure,which here (in Thailand) is difficult not to get, so no need thanks.

3/ Even meat eaters are at risk of B12 deficiency, I also know some vegans who don't take supplement and have been tested being totally fine on B12 levels. So don't think you're not at risk.

DHA is rich in grass fed beef, goat etc and butter as well as cold water fish.

Yeast is not a source of B-12 but is often fortified with B-12

Meat is the number one source of bad cholesterol,which is the number one killer in Western world.

Never said B12 was from yeast : Yeast is my first point : 1/

B12 is my third point 3/

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

1/ You get your fatty acids from fish that contain PCB, dioxins, and mercury, we get it safely from yeast/algae.

2/ Vitamin D could be a supplement to take as a vegetarian yes, no big deal a pill every now and then, that is if you don't get 15 minutes at least of sun exposure,which here (in Thailand) is difficult not to get, so no need thanks.

3/ Even meat eaters are at risk of B12 deficiency, I also know some vegans who don't take supplement and have been tested being totally fine on B12 levels. So don't think you're not at risk.

DHA is rich in grass fed beef, goat etc and butter as well as cold water fish.

Yeast is not a source of B-12 but is often fortified with B-12

Meat is the number one source of bad cholesterol,which is the number one killer in Western world.

Never said B12 was from yeast : Yeast is my first point : 1/

B12 is my third point 3/

What fatty acids are you getting from yeast and algae? DHA? CLA?

Any articles or studies to support that?

Most vegetarians claim yeast and algae supply B-12

Definitely damaged and low quality fats like transfats are harmful but the blanket assumption that saturated fats are harmful has been largely debunked.

http://chriskresser.com/the-diet-heart-myth-cholesterol-and-saturated-fat-are-not-the-enemy

Edited June 7, 2014 by CobraSnakeNecktie

[JSixpack]

<< Raising plants on that same acre of rangeland kills small mammals, snakes, lizards, mice and other animals.>>

Yeah right like it's anything comparable to the millions of animals slaughtered for the wrong reason on a daily basis.

http://www.amazon.com/Vegetarian-Myth-Food-Justice-Sustainability/dp/1604860804/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1402112326&sr=1-1&keywords=the+vegetarian+myth

If you’ve spent any time debating vegetarians, you know the supposed superiority of a meat-free existence boils down to three main beliefs: it’s immoral to kill in order to eat, we must all give up meat to save the planet, and giving up animal products will improve your health. Keith refers to these as the Vegetarian Myths, and during her decades as a dedicated vegan, she believed them. But in this book, she destroys them one by one — by offering what she calls adult knowledge. Knowledge, after all, is the reason adults don’t believe in the Easter Bunny. As Keith puts it: “What separates me from vegetarians isn’t ethics or commitment. It’s information.”

--from a revew at http://www.fathead-movie.com/index.php/2010/01/08/the-vegetarian-myth/

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

^most vegetarians are never going to read that book.

I know when I was a vegetarian I would avoid reading articles challenging vegetarian assumptions.

A good idea is a like a good boat. If you try to sink it and it still floats then it's a good boat.

My experience is that most vegetarians don't want to scrutinize much. Same with Creationists.

[Sheryl]

Not all vegetarians are so because of any assumptions about its health or ecological effects .

Some people simply don't want to unnecessarily kill animals/encourage their being killed. No more, no less. It is certainly not a "myth" that animals are killed to produce meat.

And not all vegeterians make a big deal out of it or go around broadcasting the fact. Many are quite content to make their own choices and let other people make theirs.

[hermespan]

I don't care either way. I, along with many other vegetarians, are not refraining from eating the flesh of dead animals for health reasons.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Vegetarianism is certainly a choice that anyone has a right to follow.

The rub occurs when vegetarians/vegans make assertions like

-- all the nutrients one needs in the diet can come from vegetarian diet

-- vegetarian diet is healthier and results in longer life and lower disease

-- vegetarian diets are more environmental

-- vegetarian diets result in less death or cruelty

evidently some folks didn't read the earlier mentioned book or article I posted that seriously challenge that death/cruelty assumption.

So I think most people are fine with someone saying its their arbitrary personal choice, spiritual path or semi religion to not eat animals.

When the questionable claims get dragged out then don't be wildly surprised if many challenge those assertions vigorously.

[hermespan]

Vegetarianism is certainly a choice that anyone has a right to follow.

The rub occurs when vegetarians/vegans make assertions like

-- all the nutrients one needs in the diet can come from vegetarian diet

-- vegetarian diet is healthier and results in longer life and lower disease

-- vegetarian diets are more environmental

-- vegetarian diets result in less death or cruelty

evidently some folks didn't read the earlier mentioned book or article I posted that seriously challenge that death/cruelty assumption.

So I think most people are fine with someone saying its their arbitrary personal choice, spiritual path or semi religion to not eat animals.

When the questionable claims get dragged out then don't be wildly surprised if many challenge those assertions vigorously.

Thank you. I will read that. On the face if it I see no logic that not eating animals dies not reduce death/cruelty. For example if you never kill or injure humans (except in extreme situations of self-defence) it is obvious you reduce suffering. For me and many children if the 1970s, admittedly strongly influenced by Gandhi, Hinduism, yoga - it was and remains a moral choice, tainted to some degree by elitism, religion and sentiment. I would agree wholeheartedly however that you can be a junk food vegetarian. I know a lot of obese vegetarians.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Here is the earlier article I posted

http://www.care2.com/causes/do-vegetarians-kill-more-animals-than-meat-eaters.html

Here is the claim part that people are going to challenge.

The assertion that vegetarianism is a moral high ground.

Yes Gandhi was a vegetarian. So was Adolph Hitler.

The Dalai Lama famously said at the White House that he is Dalai Lama and not a vegetarian.

If vegetarians want to lay claim to moral high ground then that would be considered an extraordinary claim and extraordinary claims need to have extraordinary evidence to back it up.

[hermespan]

Here is the earlier article I posted

http://www.care2.com/causes/do-vegetarians-kill-more-animals-than-meat-eaters.html

Here is the claim part that people are going to challenge.

The assertion that vegetarianism is a moral high ground.

Yes Gandhi was a vegetarian. So was Adolph Hitler.

The Dalai Lama famously said at the White House that he is Dalai Lama and not a vegetarian.

If vegetarians want to lay claim to moral high ground then that would be considered an extraordinary claim and extraordinary claims need to have extraordinary evidence to back it up.

I cannot speak for other vegetarians. Put simply, I feel guilty if I eat meat, so I refrain.

[piersbeckett]

Here is the earlier article I posted

http://www.care2.com/causes/do-vegetarians-kill-more-animals-than-meat-eaters.html

Here is the claim part that people are going to challenge.

The assertion that vegetarianism is a moral high ground.

Yes Gandhi was a vegetarian. So was Adolph Hitler.

The Dalai Lama famously said at the White House that he is Dalai Lama and not a vegetarian.

If vegetarians want to lay claim to moral high ground then that would be considered an extraordinary claim and extraordinary claims need to have extraordinary evidence to back it up.

I cannot speak for other vegetarians. Put simply, I feel guilty if I eat meat, so I refrain.

Well I'll speak for another and that's myself; I became vegetarian (some 33 years hitherto) for two reasons firstly because of my abhorrence of 'factory' farming and secondly because I discovered that you didn't 'have' to eat meat or fish which I never liked much anyway. I would, however, never be a martyr to the cause and expect that I'd eat other humans if I had to, to survive.

It depends on what choices you have: if you're an eskimo for example you'd have to kill animals and eat them to survive. Many millions of people,(I've been informed) eat very little or no meat or fish because such food to them is in-affordable or unavailable.

To me vegetarian food (that's proper, balanced, nutritious, protein-rich meals made from ingredients that don't include meat or fish) tastes like I want food to taste. I would say that I have as little if not less time for vegetarians who assume any superiority or claim any moral high ground for so being than any meat/fish eater.

[Kitsune]

Would it be possible to stay on topic?

We are discussing whether vegetarians live longer or not.

Not the reasons why people are vegetarians

[wolf5370]

<< Raising plants on that same acre of rangeland kills small mammals, snakes, lizards, mice and other animals.>>

Yeah right like it's anything comparable to the millions of animals slaughtered for the wrong reason on a daily basis.

vegmyth.jpg

http://www.amazon.com/Vegetarian-Myth-Food-Justice-Sustainability/dp/1604860804/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1402112326&sr=1-1&keywords=the+vegetarian+myth

If you’ve spent any time debating vegetarians, you know the supposed superiority of a meat-free existence boils down to three main beliefs: it’s immoral to kill in order to eat, we must all give up meat to save the planet, and giving up animal products will improve your health. Keith refers to these as the Vegetarian Myths, and during her decades as a dedicated vegan, she believed them. But in this book, she destroys them one by one — by offering what she calls adult knowledge. Knowledge, after all, is the reason adults don’t believe in the Easter Bunny. As Keith puts it: “What separates me from vegetarians isn’t ethics or commitment. It’s information.”

--from a revew at http://www.fathead-movie.com/index.php/2010/01/08/the-vegetarian-myth/

Those 3 reasons may have been the 3 reasons she had, but she cannot attest to everyone that has made the choice - it is arrogant for her to suggest it even. What separates her is that she lost her reasons for wanting to be a vegetarian - simple as that - the rest is her self aggrandisement. Many veggies simply don't like meat, or cannot stomach it for whatever reason - some were against farming practises rather than the killing itself - some do it for religious reasons - and so on and on.

[wolf5370]

Would it be possible to stay on topic?

We are discussing whether vegetarians live longer or not.

Not the reasons why people are vegetarians

That would make for a pretty short topic - all of two letters - "no". There are too many variables that effect life, health and death and diet is one tiny one - we breath in poison on a daily basis, are inhabited by hundreds of different types of bacteria and viruses and come in to contact with billions of each every day. We live in dangerous environments with 1 tonne+ metal boxes hurling about at speeds that would pulverise our soft bodies either carrying us or surrounding us. We are subject to background radiation from the sun, space, wifi, UHF, VHF, LW, and many other sources constantly. The ground is polluted with lead, cadmium, radon and other seriously bad compounds put out by cars, factories, refuse and day to day pollution. Genetics also come in to play of course - as do pre existing conditions, injury and damage.

Yet, the majority of children born in the 1st world since 2000 will see 100 years of age - many of us will too (remember the older you get, the greater your life expectancy - simple statistics).

[Kitsune]

Would it be possible to stay on topic?

We are discussing whether vegetarians live longer or not.

Not the reasons why people are vegetarians

That would make for a pretty short topic - all of two letters - "no". There are too many variables that effect life, health and death and diet is one tiny one - we breath in poison on a daily basis, are inhabited by hundreds of different types of bacteria and viruses and come in to contact with billions of each every day. We live in dangerous environments with 1 tonne+ metal boxes hurling about at speeds that would pulverise our soft bodies either carrying us or surrounding us. We are subject to background radiation from the sun, space, wifi, UHF, VHF, LW, and many other sources constantly. The ground is polluted with lead, cadmium, radon and other seriously bad compounds put out by cars, factories, refuse and day to day pollution. Genetics also come in to play of course - as do pre existing conditions, injury and damage.

Yet, the majority of children born in the 1st world since 2000 will see 100 years of age - many of us will too (remember the older you get, the greater your life expectancy - simple statistics).

I disagree the topic is worth debating.

There have been many contradicting surveys about it

And so far we have 5 or 6 pages worth of opinions.

If you would like to debate the over debated (and for me boring) issue as to why people eat what they eat, please feel free to open your own topic.

[wolf5370]

Would it be possible to stay on topic?

We are discussing whether vegetarians live longer or not.

Not the reasons why people are vegetarians

That would make for a pretty short topic - all of two letters - "no". There are too many variables that effect life, health and death and diet is one tiny one - we breath in poison on a daily basis, are inhabited by hundreds of different types of bacteria and viruses and come in to contact with billions of each every day. We live in dangerous environments with 1 tonne+ metal boxes hurling about at speeds that would pulverise our soft bodies either carrying us or surrounding us. We are subject to background radiation from the sun, space, wifi, UHF, VHF, LW, and many other sources constantly. The ground is polluted with lead, cadmium, radon and other seriously bad compounds put out by cars, factories, refuse and day to day pollution. Genetics also come in to play of course - as do pre existing conditions, injury and damage.

Yet, the majority of children born in the 1st world since 2000 will see 100 years of age - many of us will too (remember the older you get, the greater your life expectancy - simple statistics).

I disagree the topic is worth debating.

There have been many contradicting surveys about it

And so far we have 5 or 6 pages worth of opinions.

If you would like to debate the over debated (and for me boring) issue as to why people eat what they eat, please feel free to open your own topic.

I think you have 5 or 6 pages of people discussing what you don't want them to discuss - namely that they are or are not veggies (and of what form) and the reasons, along with other posts showing how a cross section study that makes no attempt to remove pre-existing conditions (thus reasons for a lot of the veggies in their study) shows nothing at all - only a longitudinal study would suggest longevity and that would be highly subjective too given the lack of clinical conditions. But, its your thread, if you want to kill it off by removing the actual discussion content, then sure go for it Stepping away.

[Kitsune]

it"s not my topic

I would not have asked the question in this terms.