Air conditioners and home insulation

[connda]

My wife and I are getting old enough that we can indulge ourselves and actually buy an air conditioner to install in our village home. I'm only looking to put A/C in the bedroom. The house is a typical concrete constructed house with a false ceiling. I know I'll have to put insulation above the room.

So I'm looking for recommendations for both A/Cs and insulation. Looking for an A/C that will filter out as much particulate as possible and still cool a moderate sized bedroom (it's maybe about 15 x 15 feet max).

In my home country I could buy fiberglass batting insulation strips. I not sure if you can get that here? And what grade would be best for keeping cool air in one room.

[Thighlander]

13000 BTU....I like Carrier (UTX). Saw insulation the other day at Baan and Beyond. As in A/C, more is not necessarily better in insulation, either. In areas where it is almost entirely to keep the cool in; a lot of folks are discovering that too thick of a layer actually retains the heat you want to get rid of. I had great luck with the spinning attic ventilators, but they must be used in pairs. Some of the spray foam seems to be a newer trend, and will also provide water protection.

[kaptainrob]

Global House stocks 3" foil wrapped Batts which is ideal and cheap @ under 300Bt a 2.4 x .6m roll. HomePro/Baan&Beyond sell similar tho marginally more expensive.

Beware of different "R" rating standards used and read the small print on data sheets, in English, on the good brands.

IMHO a ~9k BTU unit sufficient for bedroom. We use ours for ~ 4 hours a night (auto-off at 2am) for approx 3 months and running cost takes PEA a/c to a whopping 800Bt/pm.

I prefer Samsung and Inverter models. Check SiamTv, Central and HomePro for specials @ ~ 12k, installed. The filtering claims are not always kosher and depends on ones household hygiene/pets or not ... etc. Don't be fooled by sales talk and beware the COMPANY reps in each retail outlet ... eg: LG staff employed by LG, Samsung by Samsung ... yet wearing local store uniforms.

[Gonsalviz]

Using Mitsubishi inverter. I think its great. I run it 24/7. 26 in the day and 25 at night. I bundle up in a comforter at 24. 20,000 btu in a 330 sq ft room with a 10 foot ceiling. No insulation yet in the ceiling but the walls are Q-Con not concrete. The outside walls do not get warm. Costs me around 1200 Baht a month.

I have been looking at insulation. All the big stores sell foam insulation R 13 and R 19. Can't be positive if the values are accurate but it has to be better than bare gypsum. The attic in this house does not get stifling hot and it is about 5 C cooler inside than outside in this Isan heat. (38-39 lately)

I have 2 other rooms with 9,000 btu A/C's. I run them and the master b/r A/C with the doors open and ceiling fans on to cool the living room that is around 550 sq ft. It does a fair job but the electric bill might scare me.

[Awk]

I am sure there are some exceptions, but in general I think no AC do a specially good job at filtering out small particles, but even old ACs will filter out some, both small and larger particles.

I suspect the best is to research what thirdparty AC filters (filters you will use to replace the stock filters that come with the AC unit, not the disposable 3M material) are available for what locally sold ACs. Then buy one of the ACs for which you can get a good thirdparty filter for. Unlike the stock AC filters, these thirdparty filters are designed to do a good job at filtering out stuff, and hopefully there are some reviews of them available.

Why do stock AC filters not do a better job? I suspect it is simply that virtually nobody who buys an AC cares or even gives it a single thought. Certainly I did not until very recently.

[Gonsalviz]

I am sure there are some exceptions, but in general I think no AC do a specially good job at filtering out small particles, but even old ACs will filter out some, both small and larger particles.

I suspect the best is to research what thirdparty AC filters (filters you will use to replace the stock filters that come with the AC unit, not the disposable 3M material) are available for what locally sold ACs. Then buy one of the ACs for which you can get a good thirdparty filter for. Unlike the stock AC filters, these thirdparty filters are designed to do a good job at filtering out stuff, and hopefully there are some reviews of them available.

Why do stock AC filters not do a better job? I suspect it is simply that virtually nobody who buys an AC cares or even gives it a single thought. Certainly I did not until very recently.

What exactly is wrong with the 3M filter material? It certainly collects more paticulate than the stock filters and in Thailand is readily available. I doubt you can find a ready source for the filters you speak of.

[Thighlander]

betcha they could deny a warranty claim for using certain third party filters.

[Awk]

I am sure there are some exceptions, but in general I think no AC do a specially good job at filtering out small particles, but even old ACs will filter out some, both small and larger particles.

I suspect the best is to research what thirdparty AC filters (filters you will use to replace the stock filters that come with the AC unit, not the disposable 3M material) are available for what locally sold ACs. Then buy one of the ACs for which you can get a good thirdparty filter for. Unlike the stock AC filters, these thirdparty filters are designed to do a good job at filtering out stuff, and hopefully there are some reviews of them available.

Why do stock AC filters not do a better job? I suspect it is simply that virtually nobody who buys an AC cares or even gives it a single thought. Certainly I did not until very recently.

What exactly is wrong with the 3M filter material? It certainly collects more paticulate than the stock filters and in Thailand is readily available. I doubt you can find a ready source for the filters you speak of.

Yes, indeed it does. I did not mean to imply there was anything wrong with them, though upon re-reading I see how one could think it, so sorry about that.

It is a bit of a hassle imo to replace them as it takes some time to do properly, making sure it seals the whole area properly and does not detach after some days of use. I would prefer a long-lasting thirdparty filter with a similar filter rating which I could clean myself every now and then. Perhaps it will also be cheaper in the long run. Even if the filter is not available locally, it is not something you would need to replace often. So if I could find an AC and a long-lasting filter with a similar rating to buy, even if I had to order from abroad, I would do that.

E.g. the 3M filtrete sold at HomePro has a MERV rating of 11 I believe, according to http://iheatcool.com/buying-ac/air-conditioning-heating-system-accessories/filters/air-conditioner-filter-ratings/ , which also shows the rating for other types of 3M filtrete.

[Awk]

betcha they could deny a warranty claim for using certain third party filters.

I also suspect so. And in fairness, it would not necessarily be in bad form of them to do it. They design and build the system for a certain type of filter, and if somebody installs a filter with a much higher air resistance and that forces the motor to work that much harder, it would not be unfair for the company to not want to warrant everything in the same way.

Edited March 31, 2014 by Awk

[recycler]

We had the whole roof sprayed with PU foam, insulates and comes with a 5 year warranty against leaking too. It was done by a company Lohr insulation, they work all over Thailand. The temperature in the rooms under the roof is much lower since the insulation is there.

For aircon I agree with previous reactions Mitsubishi inverter.

[Utley]

I am sure there are some exceptions, but in general I think no AC do a specially good job at filtering out small particles, but even old ACs will filter out some, both small and larger particles.

I suspect the best is to research what thirdparty AC filters (filters you will use to replace the stock filters that come with the AC unit, not the disposable 3M material) are available for what locally sold ACs. Then buy one of the ACs for which you can get a good thirdparty filter for. Unlike the stock AC filters, these thirdparty filters are designed to do a good job at filtering out stuff, and hopefully there are some reviews of them available.

Why do stock AC filters not do a better job? I suspect it is simply that virtually nobody who buys an AC cares or even gives it a single thought. Certainly I did not until very recently.

I am under the impression that 3M makes an add-on air con filter that will filter out small particles. My local Lotus didn't stock them yesterday so I am still looking.

[thaibeachlovers]

< I know I'll have to put insulation above the room.>

Why? I have AC in my bedroom and don't have insulation. Works fine.

Before buying the AC check that the meter can carry the AC, as in my wife's village they have low power meters ( I forget the correct terminology ).

I have a bedroom about the same size, and bought the smallest Samsung( ie cheapest ) AC in the shop which keeps the room at the desired temperature.

[Gonsalviz]

I am sure there are some exceptions, but in general I think no AC do a specially good job at filtering out small particles, but even old ACs will filter out some, both small and larger particles.

I suspect the best is to research what thirdparty AC filters (filters you will use to replace the stock filters that come with the AC unit, not the disposable 3M material) are available for what locally sold ACs. Then buy one of the ACs for which you can get a good thirdparty filter for. Unlike the stock AC filters, these thirdparty filters are designed to do a good job at filtering out stuff, and hopefully there are some reviews of them available.

Why do stock AC filters not do a better job? I suspect it is simply that virtually nobody who buys an AC cares or even gives it a single thought. Certainly I did not until very recently.

I am under the impression that 3M makes an add-on air con filter that will filter out small particles. My local Lotus didn't stock them yesterday so I am still looking.

Home Pro has it. I havebeen checking Lotus (3) and they do not have it anymore.

[Gonsalviz]

< I know I'll have to put insulation above the room.>

Why? I have AC in my bedroom and don't have insulation. Works fine.

Before buying the AC check that the meter can carry the AC, as in my wife's village they have low power meters ( I forget the correct terminology ).

I have a bedroom about the same size, and bought the smallest Samsung( ie cheapest ) AC in the shop which keeps the room at the desired temperature.

To lower electric consumption.

I had the low voltage problem when I was in the village also. It endes up killing either the start capacitor or the compressor. The voltage drop always seemed to happen about bedtime. Naam mentioned something about a limiter the shuts of electric when the voltage drops to save the star capacitors. I now have my own personal electric supply but surges are still a problem. Not nearly as bad though.

[connda]

< I know I'll have to put insulation above the room.>

Why? I have AC in my bedroom and don't have insulation. Works fine.

Before buying the AC check that the meter can carry the AC, as in my wife's village they have low power meters ( I forget the correct terminology ).

I have a bedroom about the same size, and bought the smallest Samsung( ie cheapest ) AC in the shop which keeps the room at the desired temperature.

Thanks. We upgraded the house from solid fuses (really low tech) to a power distribution panel with circuit breaker last year. We'll be able to wire the A/C into the distribution panel. Voltage in our village is pretty consistent. We currently have it wired into the household lighting, on-damand shower heater, and water pump (pumps water from our well to a holding tank. We have a couple of open breakers to wire in an A/C, although I'll have to check the amperage on those breakers first. I think we're covered.

Edited April 1, 2014 by connda

[HKChris]

< I know I'll have to put insulation above the room.>

Why? I have AC in my bedroom and don't have insulation. Works fine.

Before buying the AC check that the meter can carry the AC, as in my wife's village they have low power meters ( I forget the correct terminology ).

I have a bedroom about the same size, and bought the smallest Samsung( ie cheapest ) AC in the shop which keeps the room at the desired temperature.

To lower electric consumption.

I had the low voltage problem when I was in the village also. It endes up killing either the start capacitor or the compressor. The voltage drop always seemed to happen about bedtime. Naam mentioned something about a limiter the shuts of electric when the voltage drops to save the star capacitors. I now have my own personal electric supply but surges are still a problem. Not nearly as bad though.

I think what you may be referring to is a 'surge suppression' device..... they do work well but from memory were quite expensive. As an aside, any inverter drive A/C system is particularly sensitive to power surges and I've heard of many that have failed during such events. Check the guarantee before buying....unlikely to be any more than 12 months.

[Sparkles]

We had the whole roof sprayed with PU foam, insulates and comes with a 5 year warranty against leaking too. It was done by a company Lohr insulation, they work all over Thailand. The temperature in the rooms under the roof is much lower since the insulation is there.

For aircon I agree with previous reactions Mitsubishi inverter.

Would you be able to give us a rough cost per meter. Haven't heard of this company but a few years ago there was a different company in Bangkok who soon disappeared when the insulation began falling off. I would have thought this system far superior to batts or insulation that sits on the ceiling rafters especially in a single storey house.

[The Usual Suspect]

We had the whole roof sprayed with PU foam, insulates and comes with a 5 year warranty against leaking too. It was done by a company Lohr insulation, they work all over Thailand. The temperature in the rooms under the roof is much lower since the insulation is there.

For aircon I agree with previous reactions Mitsubishi inverter.

Would you be able to give us a rough cost per meter. Haven't heard of this company but a few years ago there was a different company in Bangkok who soon disappeared when the insulation began falling off. I would have thought this system far superior to batts or insulation that sits on the ceiling rafters especially in a single storey house.

Just an F.Y.I.

I looked up Lohr Insulation on the web. They are a German company and look very reputable . They have been around long

enough (since the late 90's) to generate substantial references. Here's the link.

http://www.lohr-trade.com

Edited April 1, 2014 by The Usual Suspect

[Thighlander]

We had the whole roof sprayed with PU foam, insulates and comes with a 5 year warranty against leaking too. It was done by a company Lohr insulation, they work all over Thailand. The temperature in the rooms under the roof is much lower since the insulation is there.

For aircon I agree with previous reactions Mitsubishi inverter.

Would you be able to give us a rough cost per meter. Haven't heard of this company but a few years ago there was a different company in Bangkok who soon disappeared when the insulation began falling off. I would have thought this system far superior to batts or insulation that sits on the ceiling rafters especially in a single storey house.

Just an F.Y.I.

I looked up Lohr Insulation on the web. They are a German company and look very reputable . They have been around long

enough (since the late 90's) to generate substantial references. Here's the link.

http://www.lohr-trade.com

That is likely the company that regularly advertises in the bkk post.

[kaptainrob]

We had the whole roof sprayed with PU foam, insulates and comes with a 5 year warranty against leaking too. It was done by a company Lohr insulation, they work all over Thailand. The temperature in the rooms under the roof is much lower since the insulation is there.

For aircon I agree with previous reactions Mitsubishi inverter.

Would you be able to give us a rough cost per meter. Haven't heard of this company but a few years ago there was a different company in Bangkok who soon disappeared when the insulation began falling off. I would have thought this system far superior to batts or insulation that sits on the ceiling rafters especially in a single storey house.

Batts are better as they form a secondary insulating barrier; to keep heat [which normally rises] from radiating down thru ceiling board and cold air from a/c being wasted in a reverse process.

Roof or ceiling repairs are easier with foil wrapped batts blanket compared with sprayed product.

[connda]

What's the price difference between an inverter system and the older on-or-off compressor units. Didn't know what an inverter was until I looked it up.

[connda]

13000 BTU....I like Carrier (UTX). Saw insulation the other day at Baan and Beyond. As in A/C, more is not necessarily better in insulation, either. In areas where it is almost entirely to keep the cool in; a lot of folks are discovering that too thick of a layer actually retains the heat you want to get rid of. I had great luck with the spinning attic ventilators, but they must be used in pairs. Some of the spray foam seems to be a newer trend, and will also provide water protection.

We want to put in insulation to retain the cool air and to retain the heat. It get's darn cold in the mountain valley we live in during the cold months and I plan on heating that room to. Warm air rises and I want to keep that in too. But an attic fan sounds like a good idea too. I had one in my house in "the old country".

[recycler]

We had the whole roof sprayed with PU foam, insulates and comes with a 5 year warranty against leaking too. It was done by a company Lohr insulation, they work all over Thailand. The temperature in the rooms under the roof is much lower since the insulation is there.

For aircon I agree with previous reactions Mitsubishi inverter.

Would you be able to give us a rough cost per meter. Haven't heard of this company but a few years ago there was a different company in Bangkok who soon disappeared when the insulation began falling off. I would have thought this system far superior to batts or insulation that sits on the ceiling rafters especially in a single storey house.

This is copied from an email from Lohr over a year ago, for our house it was about 80K Baht

The price for the insulation with our PU rigid spray foam lies between 520.-

and 620.- Baht per square meter and depends on the size of a project. To get

a rough idea about your roof's size you could calculate the building's floor

area and add approx. 25% (for roof's slope) to the result.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Thighlander]

http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/100014195?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100014195&R=100014195

This is what I put in my house in Phoenix. Thermostatically controlled.

[marko kok prong]

trouble with putting batts up is the ceilings[at least mine has many wires hanging from the roof to support the frame that the tiles sit in,could be done but a lot of mucking around,cutting batts etc,

[Thighlander]

trouble with putting batts up is the ceilings[at least mine has many wires hanging from the roof to support the frame that the tiles sit in,could be done but a lot of mucking around,cutting batts etc,

agreed, might be a very good application for blown in like this...less than 100 thb psm. Many, do it without the blower. A 370 thb bag would give 4 sm R-30. The new stuff is "no itch" and doesn't contain the hazards as the old stuff. Still need gloves and mask. You could also compliment this with a radiant barrier on the underside of the roof.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/GreenFiber-Cellulose-Blow-in-Fiber-Insulation-INS541LD/100318635?N=5yc1vZasbsZ1z0uukt

Edited April 3, 2014 by Thighlander

[kaptainrob]

trouble with putting batts up is the ceilings[at least mine has many wires hanging from the roof to support the frame that the tiles sit in,could be done but a lot of mucking around,cutting batts etc,

Very easy actually as ceiling [sheets are 120cm wide or plaster squares 60cm x 60cm] and usually hung between 60cm rails. Insulation rolls are 60cm wide.

[Naam]

trouble with putting batts up is the ceilings[at least mine has many wires hanging from the roof to support the frame that the tiles sit in,could be done but a lot of mucking around,cutting batts etc,

agreed, might be a very good application for blown in like this...less than 100 thb psm. Many, do it without the blower. A 370 thb bag would give 4 sm R-30. The new stuff is "no itch" and doesn't contain the hazards as the old stuff. Still need gloves and mask. You could also compliment this with a radiant barrier on the underside of the roof.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/GreenFiber-Cellulose-Blow-in-Fiber-Insulation-INS541LD/100318635?N=5yc1vZasbsZ1z0uukt

there's neither Home Depot nor blown insulation in Thailand!

[Naam]

< I know I'll have to put insulation above the room.>

Why? I have AC in my bedroom and don't have insulation. Works fine.

Before buying the AC check that the meter can carry the AC, as in my wife's village they have low power meters ( I forget the correct terminology ).

I have a bedroom about the same size, and bought the smallest Samsung( ie cheapest ) AC in the shop which keeps the room at the desired temperature.

To lower electric consumption.

I had the low voltage problem when I was in the village also. It endes up killing either the start capacitor or the compressor. The voltage drop always seemed to happen about bedtime. Naam mentioned something about a limiter the shuts of electric when the voltage drops to save the star capacitors. I now have my own personal electric supply but surges are still a problem. Not nearly as bad though.

I think what you may be referring to is a 'surge suppression' device..... they do work well but from memory were quite expensive. As an aside, any inverter drive A/C system is particularly sensitive to power surges and I've heard of many that have failed during such events. Check the guarantee before buying....unlikely to be any more than 12 months.

no he is not talking about surge suppression but the opposite, namely voltage drops. surges in Thailand are rare, voltage drops (brown outs) are quite common. when they happen they usually (not always) burn out the compressor starting relay and sometimes the starting capacitor too.

i run quite a bunch of aircon units in my home and for the first two years i paid through my nose replacing burned out starting relays. problem was solved by a custom built gadget which shuts off a phase when the voltage drops more than 10% (adjustable). not cheap (~31,000 Baht) but it paid.

[Naam]

Global House stocks 3" foil wrapped Batts which is ideal and cheap @ under 300Bt a 2.4 x .6m roll. HomePro/Baan&Beyond sell similar tho marginally more expensive.

Beware of different "R" rating standards used and read the small print on data sheets, in English, on the good brands.

IMHO a ~9k BTU unit sufficient for bedroom. We use ours for ~ 4 hours a night (auto-off at 2am) for approx 3 months and running cost takes PEA a/c to a whopping 800Bt/pm.

I prefer Samsung and Inverter models. Check SiamTv, Central and HomePro for specials @ ~ 12k, installed. The filtering claims are not always kosher and depends on ones household hygiene/pets or not ... etc. Don't be fooled by sales talk and beware the COMPANY reps in each retail outlet ... eg: LG staff employed by LG, Samsung by Samsung ... yet wearing local store uniforms.

using an inverter aircon for a limited time ("4 hours at night") was a waste of money when buying the much more expensive unit.

sizing the unit is based on individiual demands e.g. required temperature in the bedroom at maximum ambient temperature during daytime and minimum ambient temperature at night. based on the present prevailing max 35º and min 27º a 9,000 btu/h unit cannot cool a 21m² (15'x15') bedroom to a comfortable 25º sleeping temperature.