Did Thai steal from Khmer culture?

[Theoutsider]

We know india is great.

[Jessi]

We know india is great.

They have a lot of Indians living there....

[paz]

Sorry, may not go back as far as India's but Muslim culture did have its extreme glories back in the day, Europe would never had its Renaissance nor the industrial revolution if the Moors hadn't conquered Spain.

Ohhhh.. no my friend, you're way off base, again. Please stop talking this kind of "global fusion" nonsense. Beside architecture in that localized area of Spain only, Moor/Arabs/Islams have not contributed an inch to European development, culture, achievement, or even European crimes and shames. I say that without any bias. This is history and so things happened, the relationship with Europe was one of war not exchange. Check facts, Arabs were completely defeated out of Spain around 1492. On the east side, Octoman Empire defeated at Lepanto, 1575. Unlike European countries that maintained "normal" relationships with each other when not at war, there where virtually no commerce, no embassadors, no mixed marriage, and no contribution with Arab countries, but a great deal of blood and hate.

Go on read, on Renaissance and European Industry and Science and, tell us exactly what the Arabs have contributed to that ? and what was happening in Arabic countries during the same years ?

[wym]

The only people that could read and write in Europe were cloistered monks, and they no longer had access to the literary history of Greece and Rome. Start with how they re-acquired the works of Aristotle and work from there.

And you never wondered why we use ARABIC numbers? I suppose you think the calculus would have been invented using Roman digits?

http://www.medievalhistory.net/scientia.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_contributions_to_Medieval_Europe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_in_the_Middle_Ages#Islamic_interactions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_mathematics#Islamic_mathematics

http://www.islamicspain.tv/Arts-and-Science/The-Culture-of-Al-Andalus/Mathematics.htm

Just do some reading and googling with an open mind you'll find plenty more yourself. . .

[paz]

Whm, with the respect you are an opinionated ignorant that struggles to make a point that doesn't exist, and you would be laughed after by any history scholar, that of course I'm not.

Beside that is not even true that in the darker medioeval age monks were the only ones able to read and write, what that would have to do with the Arabic influence ? Is not like the Arabs came in relief of a culturally declining Europe, did they?

And then, yes the so called Arabic (Hindu) numbering system proved to be much better than the Roman one, came in use around year 1,000. They also wrote great mathematic astronomy and many other things. But all that become of less importance in the further course of Western science and literature, that was purely and genuinely European. Sorry if that bothers you. Seems like your knowledge is made by random bits and pieces.

[wym]

I was talking about the emergence from the Dark Ages after the fall of Rome. Celts et all rough tribespeople remember?

I admit I'm no scholar, but I must be better read than you, or perhaps you just have an ethnocentric chip on your shoulder, brainwashing against islam?

[paz]

Again? Once for all, Arabs/Islam had little if any importance in the evolution of Europe, except to have fought it, no matter the time period.

Put her a credible reference to disprove that, you can't.

And no I'm not ethnocentric, it is you that feel the need to defend I don't know what theory.

By the way, in my country {not Spain} we have lovely Arabic architecure, lots of loanwords and delightful pastries. Nice, but that doesn't do science and progress.

[sirchai]

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"Ridiculous title to a ridiculous topic.

We are sharing this planet, exchanging ideas and ideals.

Look at any place on the planet and you will see the exchange."

Not rediculous...Thailand is great at taking, and not giving.

Check your history...'Muay Thai' is really 'Muay Khmer'...case in point.

Yeah, and the potato originated in South America and the guitar in such n such.....

Not to mention, every language in existence was once just one language. Its not stealing. Cultures evolved.

And the Thai/Kymer boxing example is just ridiculous. Two guy bashing each others heads. Gimme a break! Everyone does that.

How much of Europe "stole" Roman culture...and they "stole" it from the Greeks.

Another Thai bashing thread. Pathetic.

I don't think Europe stole from the Romans , they imposed it on there conquests. But they had the sense to incorporate Things into there own and use it to there advantage

.

Please see:

http://www.villa-rustica.de/intro/index02e.html

[wym]

Again? Once for all, Arabs/Islam had little if any importance in the evolution of Europe, except to have fought it, no matter the time period.

Put her a credible reference to disprove that, you can't.

And no I'm not ethnocentric, it is you that feel the need to defend I don't know what theory.

By the way, in my country {not Spain} we have lovely Arabic architecure, lots of loanwords and delightful pastries. Nice, but that doesn't do science and progress.

Malta? Any chance you live in Phuket, recently met an older spinner (late 20's maybe 30) from Surin by any chance? Long shot I know. . .

[mikebike]

Again? Once for all, Arabs/Islam had little if any importance in the evolution of Europe, except to have fought it, no matter the time period.

Put her a credible reference to disprove that, you can't.

How Islam kick started science

Keith Devlin on the debt of influence that science, culture and technology owe to Islam

Europe's Debt to Persia From Ancient to Modern Times

Religion, Philosophy, Astronomy, Mathematics, Medicine and the Sciences

Reeves, Minou

Published by Ithaca Press

ISBN: 9780863725197

[paz]

Malta? Any chance you live in Phuket, recently met an older spinner (late 20's maybe 30) from Surin by any chance? Long shot I know. . .

Not Malta. I'm reticent to say because I'm a privacy fanatic, but it's easy to guess.

[wolf5370]

I would say its more of a case of inherited than stole (or even borrowed). The Khmer Empire encompassed all of modern day Thailand - and other countries besides. Here is a map of the 10th Century showing Empires at that point (pre Mongol Empire) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/World_1000_BCE.png. To suggest that as time passed and those countries formed and reformed, only the country that was the site of the old capital, has the right to the history and culture is hardly correct.

Bit like most of Europe, and thus the ex-Spanish, French, Portuguese, British (including India), Turkish, empires, don't thabnk Italy for the Romans - orm maybe the Greeks and Etruscans from which the Romans "borrowed" - and so on:

[Asianbloke]

Well, the same links provide information about Indian mathematics and development of Calculus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_mathematics

We are digressing from the main topic of this post, lets stick to it.

[wolf5370]

Again? Once for all, Arabs/Islam had little if any importance in the evolution of Europe, except to have fought it, no matter the time period.

Put her a credible reference to disprove that, you can't.

How Islam kick started science

Keith Devlin on the debt of influence that science, culture and technology owe to Islam

Europe's Debt to Persia From Ancient to Modern Times

Religion, Philosophy, Astronomy, Mathematics, Medicine and the Sciences

Reeves, Minou

Published by Ithaca Press

ISBN: 9780863725197

Much is said about Algebra and other sciences (actually maths mostly - Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khwarizmi wrote the famous treatise al-Kitab al-mukhtasar fi hisab al-jabr wa’l-muqabala introducing algebra) coming from Bagdad etc - however, this was mostly an accumulation of knowledge from elsewhere. Not to take away the importance of that, but much of it came from Indian, Babylonian and Greek sources (dating back 300 hundred (Euclid etc) to over a 1000 (Ptolemy/Apollonius/Archimedes/etc) previously). Decimals and fractions have also been wrongly given as Islamic inventions when Indian scholars were using them millennia earlier.

The importance of Islam to science and maths at that time was due to the fact that while Europe was in the Dark Ages and science was seen as evil, Islam embraced it - much the opposite of today one might say! It did not create or invent new science or mathematical techniques, it did, however, do a lot for formalise disparate works from around the world and save a lot of that early invention that in Europe was being burned.

[paz]

We are digressing from the main topic of this post, lets stick to it.

[casualposter]

We are digressing from the main topic of this post, lets stick to it.

Why not discuss the impact which Arabic and Persian culture has had on Thailand.

The Thai language has several Persian loanwords. How many do you know?

[mikebike]

Farang!

[wolf5370]

I am curious. As I am not yet fluent in reading Thai script, is what the OP states in Thai history books?

And beyond that, why should Thais say "thank you?" We mostly know history from what is written and dug up, which is very little. Would the pride still be there if these traditions were from, say, Poughkeepsie?

You don't have to be fluent reading, just ask the Thais you know.

Very very few are even aware of how much of their language and culture originated from elsewhere, nor even that those cultures are much older and richer than their own.

At least well-educated Europeans are aware of the fact they were still living in mud huts and wearing animal skins while Islamic culture had well-developed science and higher maths, arts music, was going through its enlightenment hundreds of years before it started to penetrate into Europe, ending their "dark ages".

Here even university graduates have no clue, nor any interest.

Fact is they're brainwashed to hate the Burmese and Khmer even more than they do the Indians, so even if they were to somehow become informed of the facts they'd never acknowledge that awareness publicly.

But really this "injustice" doesn't really rank compared to those affecting real people here and now, and the OP's indignation on the topic is just as fueled by ignorant obsolete ethnocentricity and nationalism.

"At least well-educated Europeans are aware of the fact they were still living in mud huts and wearing animal skins while Islamic culture had well-developed science and higher maths, arts music, was going through its enlightenment hundreds of years before it started to penetrate into Europe, ending their "dark ages"."

This is simply not true. Islamic culture was in its heyday (scientifically speaking) in the 12th century - one could hardly say Europe lived in mud huts at that point in history! Remember Islam didn't even exist until the 600's - Rome had come and gone by then. The dark ages were just beginning in the 600's ( saeculum obscurum - 6th to 13th century in Europe). There were several crusades and a lot of fighting going on in the Holy Lands during this period (indeed Muhammad was born into war and was a war leader).

You surely must have some knowledge of the true great in science, maths and art - Greece! And we are talking from 3000BC (and even then they lived in stone houses!). Add Rome somewhat later to that - but still well before Islam even existed. That's just Europe - the Chinese and Indian cultures pre date Greece too - with art, science and maths. Add the Egyptians, great artists, skilled builders and the inventors of PI and pre-greko-geometry.

[Donnie Brasco]

Read this. Read it carefully. When you're done, read it again.

You'll learn that to describe the situation in Pattani as a "British legacy ... typical of a departing colonial entity" is complete rubbish.

http://www.ihrc.org.uk/publications/reports/6750-a-brief-introduction-to-the-malay-kingdom-of-patani-1-

You really do NOT get this do you, casualposter.

So I will attempt to help you.

The last custodians of this wasps' nest were the British. Upon cessation of the colonial occupation instead of straightening out this internecine mess by acceding territory according to the historical imperatives described in this article left a mess. They did this intentionally as they ALWAYS do.

The reasons for this are clear to anyone familiar with colonialism.

I am familiar with the history, ethnic imperatives, religious proclivities and the current broader issues in this area.

The British commercial and banking interests and the efficacy of a quick deal were far more easily achieved by leaving a mess.

You can limit your purview to the usual pedantic Wiki, or historical SNAPSHOT in order to better serve your personal loyalties and (I suspect) your nationalistic prejudices.

They left a mess. They always leave a mess.

The US is no better in the modern era.

Occupiers always leave chaos and discord upon departure.

What stays behind is always toxic, destructive and unstable.

Buy the way, my comment on your initial bombast and subsequent rudeness stands.

Spare me further orders and instructions to read a historical record that has been common knowledge for years but that is one that YOU fail to view in any serious geopolitical context.

I'm sorry but I have to wonder if you have even a basic understanding of Thai history. I also have to wonder if you've been drinking.

Let me show you where you're going wrong.

The last custodians of this wasps' nest were the British. Upon cessation of the colonial occupation ...

This is rubbish. Pattani has never been colonized; the British were never its custodians.

Siam formally annexed Pattani in 1902; the annexation was then ratified in accordance with the Anglo-Siamese treaty of 1909.

Going back hundreds of years, Pattani has always been considered part of Siam. When it rebelled and rejected suzerainty (such as in the 1630s) it was promptly attacked and brought back "into the fold".

When it rebelled in 1767 (following the destruction of Ayuthaya) it was attacked again and, in 1785, destroyed.

The new town of Pattani grew up on the banks of the Pattani River in the 1830s. The town has always been part of Siam / Thailand.

To understand just how idiotic your assertion really is, take a look at Satun. The province was formerly part of Kedah. The people are ethnically and religiously similar to those in Pattani. Is there a conflict in Satun? There isn't. Do people in Satun wish to break away from Thailand? They don't.

Pattani is a complex problem, and it's clear to me that your limited (and indeed incorrect) understanding of both the historical and cultural issues renders your judgement worthless.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Donnie Brasco]

Casualposter is entangled in a huge forest and trees problem that no amount of cutting/pasting will clear.

As for your rubbish bombast, I once again stand by my initial statement.

The wasps' nest in Thailand's south is a British legacy.

Aside from never knowing when to leave the bar stewards never cleaned after themselves.

They do leave an impressive trail of blaming the victim though.

Witness Palestine, Kenya, Iran, India, Ireland, South Africa. I could go on but everyone here seems to get it but you.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[wolf5370]

We are digressing from the main topic of this post, lets stick to it.

Why not discuss the impact which Arabic and Persian culture has had on Thailand.

The Thai language has several Persian loanwords. How many do you know?

I read once that the first recorded foreigner in Thailand (Lanna actually) was a Turk who served in the Palace as chief advisor to the king back in 12 or 13 something (can't remember exactly - the early days though).

Languages are very entwined. Before the Mongolian Empire, heavy but interesting book here http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/x/nav/eb_toc.html_2124837990.html . shows The Historical Interaction between the Buddhist and Islamic Cultures before the Mongol Empire - including the early Turks (Buddhists) and later the Muslim Turks. Lot a mixing of cultures at that time (9th-13th centuries) and languages. And many shared roots too.

[paz]

Casualposter is entangled in a huge forest and trees problem that no amount of cutting/pasting will clear.

As for your rubbish bombast, I once again stand by my initial statement.

The wasps' nest in Thailand's south is a British legacy.

Aside from never knowing when to leave the bar stewards never cleaned after themselves.

They do leave an impressive trail of blaming the victim though.

Witness Palestine, Kenya, Iran, India, Ireland, South Africa. I could go on but everyone here seems to get it but you.

Not everyone, because as mentioned before, it seems to me that you are the one on an anti British ideological crusade.

Edited April 1, 2014 by paz

[wym]

I love it when the OP tries to control the direction of a thread.


On Children
Kahlil Gibran

Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them,
but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

You are the bows from which your children
as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite,
and He bends you with His might
that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as He loves the arrow that flies,
so He loves also the bow that is stable.

Edited April 1, 2014 by wym

[wym]

Casualposter is entangled in a huge forest and trees problem that no amount of cutting/pasting will clear.

As for your rubbish bombast, I once again stand by my initial statement.

The wasps' nest in Thailand's south is a British legacy.

Aside from never knowing when to leave the bar stewards never cleaned after themselves.

They do leave an impressive trail of blaming the victim though.

Witness Palestine, Kenya, Iran, India, Ireland, South Africa. I could go on but everyone here seems to get it but you.

Not everyone, because as mentioned before, it seems to me that you are the one on an ideological crusade.

Yes sometimes the virulent hatred seems more than a "method acting" pose of an invented character.

Did a Brit do you major harm earlier in life Donnie?

[wolf5370]

I am curious. As I am not yet fluent in reading Thai script, is what the OP states in Thai history books?

And beyond that, why should Thais say "thank you?" We mostly know history from what is written and dug up, which is very little. Would the pride still be there if these traditions were from, say, Poughkeepsie?

You don't have to be fluent reading, just ask the Thais you know.

Very very few are even aware of how much of their language and culture originated from elsewhere, nor even that those cultures are much older and richer than their own.

At least well-educated Europeans are aware of the fact they were still living in mud huts and wearing animal skins while Islamic culture had well-developed science and higher maths, arts music, was going through its enlightenment hundreds of years before it started to penetrate into Europe, ending their "dark ages".

Here even university graduates have no clue, nor any interest.

Fact is they're brainwashed to hate the Burmese and Khmer even more than they do the Indians, so even if they were to somehow become informed of the facts they'd never acknowledge that awareness publicly.

But really this "injustice" doesn't really rank compared to those affecting real people here and now, and the OP's indignation on the topic is just as fueled by ignorant obsolete ethnocentricity and nationalism.

I agree with most you say, but most Thai people are to busy trying to survive to worry about there history, only the people with money get educated in Thailand, to any degree. Thai people came from China, they came South to avoid the constant fighting with Gengas Cann, The Thai people where actually a tribe called Thi, the took land from most of the Surrounding Country's. The rest is History so to speak. As for Brain washing, most of us are, even today, our retrospective governments only tell you what they want you to know , the same as in the past for Thai people. and the present. We in the west can go and look up about most things, In Thailand, and a lot of other Country's things are Banned. So people can only learn what they are permitted to.

There is a lot of argument of who are the original "Thais". I posted a map earlier of the 10th Century and it clearly shows a group called Thais in north Cambodia/Laos. Also a small clan in the North east/East Burma called the Tai. There were of course people here before either came South - not least the Khmer Empire. Don't trust Wikipedia, it is not particularly accurate or up to date.

[casualposter]

Casualposter is entangled in a huge forest and trees problem that no amount of cutting/pasting will clear.

As for your rubbish bombast, I once again stand by my initial statement.

The wasps' nest in Thailand's south is a British legacy.

Aside from never knowing when to leave the bar stewards never cleaned after themselves.

They do leave an impressive trail of blaming the victim though.

Witness Palestine, Kenya, Iran, India, Ireland, South Africa. I could go on but everyone here seems to get it but you.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

You can stand by your garbage to your heart's content, but it won't change the fact that you don't know what you're talking about.

Pattani has been "troublesome" since the 1630s.

At one point -- in 1678, in fact -- King Narai wanted to give it away to the British East India Company. The Brits went there, but they didn't want it.

Pattani was never a British colony, nor was it a British protectorate, nor was it ever administered in any way, shape or form by representatives of the British empire.

The troubles in Pattani are NOT a British legacy. If you really understood what's behind the Pattani insurgency, you'd see just how stupid you look.

Go away. Learn about Thailand. Come back when you feel you might be worth taking seriously.

Until then, kindly refrain from posting rubbish.

[wym]

"At least well-educated Europeans are aware of the fact they were still living in mud huts and wearing animal skins while Islamic culture had well-developed science and higher maths, arts music, was going through its enlightenment hundreds of years before it started to penetrate into Europe, ending their "dark ages"."

This is simply not true. Islamic culture was in its heyday (scientifically speaking) in the 12th century - one could hardly say Europe lived in mud huts at that point in history! Remember Islam didn't even exist until the 600's - Rome had come and gone by then. The dark ages were just beginning in the 600's ( saeculum obscurum - 6th to 13th century in Europe). There were several crusades and a lot of fighting going on in the Holy Lands during this period (indeed Muhammad was born into war and was a war leader).

You surely must have some knowledge of the true great in science, maths and art - Greece! And we are talking from 3000BC (and even then they lived in stone houses!). Add Rome somewhat later to that - but still well before Islam even existed. That's just Europe - the Chinese and Indian cultures pre date Greece too - with art, science and maths. Add the Egyptians, great artists, skilled builders and the inventors of PI and pre-greko-geometry.

It was the interchange between nascent European seekers of knowledge and the Islamic world - not talking religion here but geography, trade routes and cultures - that ALLOWED them access to the works of past civilizations.

The church actively repressed research into secular knowledge, but the crusades brought communications between the two domains and - I'm not saying it was all Persian/Arabic-original knowledge, but it was that cross-fertilization, especially with Moorish Spain that enabled Egyptian, Indian, Byzantine, Greek and even Roman knowledge to re-enter European collective consciousness and stimulated the growth in knowledge that led to the renaissance in later centuries. I believe any Chinese influences came later. . .

Re standard of living, ordinary citizens' lives in northern Europe were most primitive compared to those in Islamic-dominated areas in the centuries following the fall of Rome.

The improvement in future centuries of architecture of the castles and cathedrals came directly from exposure due to the crusades, the glorious Gothic styles of France and Britain would not have been possible without the Arabic pointed arch and flying buttresses.

[Donnie Brasco]

Casualposter is entangled in a huge forest and trees problem that no amount of cutting/pasting will clear.

As for your rubbish bombast, I once again stand by my initial statement.

The wasps' nest in Thailand's south is a British legacy.

Aside from never knowing when to leave the bar stewards never cleaned after themselves.

They do leave an impressive trail of blaming the victim though.

Witness Palestine, Kenya, Iran, India, Ireland, South Africa. I could go on but everyone here seems to get it but you.

Not everyone, because as mentioned before, it seems to me that you are the one on an anti British ideological crusade.

Actually it's more of an irresistible compulsion to laugh at the poor barstewards.

And then to share the mirth and laughter.

From the curse of Central Banking to ongoing misery in the world's most tragic festering bungholes . . . . . . we can thank the British for most of it, I'm sorry to say.

Any British thinker, or scientist or artist (with the notable exceptions of Shakespeare, Dr. Johnson, Bertrand Russell, Thomas a Becket, and of course Mr. Pastry) . . . . . . any British thinker who's dared to say anything of significance has been figuratively burned at the stake.

They even burned that poor girl Jean d'Arc with nary a second thought.

Just look 'round the sports bar any time you've got their sacred fough-bough on telly.

Now that's just my opinion. One man's opinion.

But I'm not alone in this by a long shot.

(Just kidding . . . . . If you're offended you don't get White Rhodesian hyoumah.)

"Sometimes, 'fuggedabowdit' just means fuggedabowdit. . . . "

[wolf5370]

"Ridiculous title to a ridiculous topic.

We are sharing this planet, exchanging ideas and ideals.

Look at any place on the planet and you will see the exchange."

Not rediculous...Thailand is great at taking, and not giving.

Check your history...'Muay Thai' is really 'Muay Khmer'...case in point.

Yes the word "steal" is a little bit harsh in the OP. Have the west "stolen" yoga from India too? And Christianity from Israel? Yes "borrowed" is a better description.

"Thailand is great at taking, and not giving. " - extremely ignorant and unnecessary comment IMO. You have to wonder what the <deleted> the Thai bashers on TV are doing in Thailand, if they seriously hold some of the opinions they espouse? Just go home if you dont like the place or its culture!! I suppose you would also think Thailand should give Isarn back to Laos? Just my opinion but Thailand has given the world the best cuisine ever invented. Khmer food? Very average, and what is good seems to have a Thai influence.

They still use a number of Brahmans to perform holy cleansing rituals at the Thai Kings coronation ceremony as was also done in the Ayuthaya Kingdom before that, from which modern Thailand (Siam) copies most of its rituals. Not sure but I figure the rituals of the Khmer kingdom must have been copied from some early Indian kingdom before that. I saw a video of a Cambodian Kings coronation from last century and many parts of the ritual were exactly the same as a Thai coronation. Obviously all these Kingdoms have similar history and are rooted in Hinduism overlain with Buddhism and all this comes from India. And Thai, especially in the religious sphere, is full of Sanskrit and Pali words which they stole too.

If the OP wants to get pedantic it could be argued that India didn't exist back then as it is a modern British creation within the last 400 years as before they united the subcontinent there were just many kings and rajahs and shahs and emperors controlling many different smaller kingdoms etc.

Well, I wouldn't say that yoga was stolen from Indian for the west does acknowledge its Indian origins.

As far as the British theory who claimed that India had been a merely a collection of warring states/kingdoms who were on guard and fought amongst themselves, I will ditch that theory

Unified India thanks to British rule.

If we read about Indian history it had existed as unified empire (largely) a long time before the British and the Islamic invasions (from Central Asia) as 'Bharat' as mentioned in the Indian epics and later on, under a couple of Indian rulers.

The British white man's burden theory didn't work and fit well with the Indian masses for they found in India, a flourishing civilization, much ahead of its time in both science, arts and medicine.

Hence,, such 'westerners' weren't able to practice the usual civilizing the 'heathens' in case of India.

The success that they were able to achieve among indigenous people of Americas or some Asian nations of Philippines (completely christianized) wasn't possible in India.

The British were never about spreading religion - even the crusades which the Norman king of England (Richard I) was more about land (controlling the route to Africa) and riches than religion. The Spanish Empire was fuelled by religious fervour (although they were mostly gold hunters too). India was controlled rather than ruled, puppet Maharajas put in place and was basically run as a business (East India Company etc).

Initially India was taken to stop the French taking it - Britain was (as ever) at war with France and the French had many camps along the Indian coast. Britain attacked the French and (thanks mostly to poor seamanship and turncoat French captains) drove the French away. The coast was set up with British forts and installations to keep the French at bay, and India was systematically coaxed into submission - princes and Maharajas given British soldiers to conquer lands, or protect their lands, for/against neighbours and so it went. The French did the same, but after the fall of The Tiger of Mysore (Tipu Sultan), the French support collapsed.

Britain did want a Christian country out of India - after all by this time Britain was not Catholic and Rome had no call over it. Britain firstly wanted a Frenchless India for the trade routes (access to the Silk Road and Indo-Asia Trade Route) and as a place to grow tea (stolen from China), silk and opium (all luxuries worth more than gold back home). Later it was a useful source of workforce, soldiers and resources (metals, gems and other minerals, and fruit and spices). Britain was about making money and strategic locations - there was simply no need and no benefit in pushing followers of peaceful and compliant religions to become anything else! - Rome had no power of England so the point was moot.

[paz]

Re standard of living, ordinary citizens' lives in northern Europe were most primitive compared to those in Islamic-dominated areas in the centuries following the fall of Rome.

I don't really think so, anyway let's move to your next brave point

The improvement in future centuries of architecture of the castles and cathedrals came directly from exposure due to the crusades, the glorious Gothic styles of France and Britain would not have been possible without the Arabic pointed arch and flying buttresses.

This time you did not put the Wikipedia reference. I will, with emphasis added:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_architecture

Possible Islamic influence

The pointed arch, one of the defining attributes of Gothic, was earlier incorporated into Islamic architecture following the Islamic conquests of Roman Syria and the Sassanid Empire in the Seventh Century.[8] The pointed arch and its precursors had been employed in late Roman and Sassanian architecture; within the Roman context, evidenced in early church building in Syria and occasional secular structures, like the Roman Karamagara Bridge; in Sassanid architecture, in the parabolic and pointed arches employed in palace and sacred construction.[12][13]

Increasing military and cultural contacts with the Muslim world, including the Norman conquest of Islamic Sicily in 1090, the Crusades, beginning 1096, and the Islamic presence in Spain, may have influenced Medieval Europe's adoption of the pointed arch, although this point remains controversial.[14][15] Certainly, in those parts of the Western Mediterranean subject to Islamic control or influence, rich regional variants arose, fusing Romanesque and later Gothic traditions with Islamic decorative forms, as seen, for example, in Monreale and Cefalù Cathedrals, the Aclazar of Seville, and Teruel Cathedral.[16][17]

Wym I see that you're an intelligent person, I apologize for having called your ignorant. But for the sake of rational discussion, stay on the true side of history even if just Arts history!

Edited April 1, 2014 by paz