mimi9000 Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Work permit is only needed for activities that involves income or activities that otherwise would normally take jobs away from Thai people. Please do not ask about this to some random thai person who works in a government setting. Remember, the two words that most thai people know, by knee-jerk reaction, who work in banks and any other white collar setting, are "work permit", whether or not it has any applicability and whether they know why it would or wouldn't. Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimi9000 Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Example: I cannot provide free medical help to people here, because that is activity that would infringe on same activity that a Thai-licensed doctor would do. Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimi9000 Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 ...unless, omg course, I was "permitted" to do so. Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitkathai Posted April 3, 2014 Author Share Posted April 3, 2014 Ok people, I started this chat and I want to respond! Lets not use race or ethnicity to detract us from the issue!. Farengs and Thai locals can equally potentially be abusers of children and rorters of the employment system! I do however understand that the person who reported here that his child had been abused by a fareng employed illegally by a NGO is probably justifiabily distressed and upset. I would hope however he does not let this cloud his judgement and see all fareng living in Thailand and wanting to do volunteer work as having the same intention. Work permits do not protect people from abuse. Nor does saying I love you and a marriage certificate. Many countries do have regulations that require you to undergo a police check and sign a declaration about no history of abuse against children and this is checked on register of those convicted, these checks are performed irrespective of your migration status, you gender or sexuality or whether you have a work permit or not. I have no objection to somebody requiring this clearance. Obviously even this is not enough to protect people. It is a shame Thailand has no system set up like this. I am a female and do not intend to abuse or circumvent work laws. I will acknowledge that some abuser are women and some illicit expat workers are women. I have checked with immigration officers it is clear you cannot do volunteer work without a work permit. It is really the large established CBOs and NGOs that can either afford or administratively manage what it is required to sponsor somebody on a work permit. What a pity I cannot use my considerable international cross cultural work experience, and my educational background PhD in a health discipline, two masters degrees, and two post graduate educational diplomas in my retirement to help people without creating a problem for the agency I am trying to help. I just wanted to vent my frustration. I've met some so called foreign volunteers here without work permits and I sometimes pray to be forgiven for not having turned them in. Just because someone wants to be a volunteer doesn't mean they are professionally or psychologically qualified; there must be some type of control and database. If you were allowed in then the next guy allowed might be a pedophile or other sub-human thing. That's a potent mix of paranoia and broken logic you've got going on there. It's easy to write a short sentence but perhaps you could try the grown up thing and explain your statement. I could easily turn around and accuse you of................................. I had dealings with an NGO who took on foreigners without work permit or background checks and one of them hurt my children so you can go to Hell with your childish comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitkathai Posted April 3, 2014 Author Share Posted April 3, 2014 ...unless, omg course, I was "permitted" to do so. Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand I don't get your point. I am not asking to be allowed to go in and assist without my professional qualifications being checked, nor my criminal record status being checked... I just do not see why I cannot be on a so called "retirement visa" and do work that is clearly charitable and non remunerated without having going off my "retirement extension of stay" and changing my type of visa and having the pile of paper work that is required of the very small CB0 to do. Not to mention the issue of having to translate and back translate a lot of documentation. I can see there is a gap here in legislation and an an opportunity to correct. But I guess the government is too busy at the moment!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepool Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 kitkathai Any genuine major NGO will ensure anyone "working " for such an organisation is in possession of any documentation needed to be "legal" ! It is the "fly by night" organisations coupled with the scam outfits which are the problem. I understand the frustration felt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitkathai Posted April 3, 2014 Author Share Posted April 3, 2014 kitkathai Any genuine major NGO will ensure anyone "working " for such an organisation is in possession of any documentation needed to be "legal" ! It is the "fly by night" organisations coupled with the scam outfits which are the problem. I understand the frustration felt. We all started the process it just got too time consuming and complicated for the CBO. Just to be clear for those people who think I need this for extension of stay. I do not. I have money deposited and follow the law strictly I do not work. I have even had a government department invite me to train and consult. I had to remind them I would have to come off my visa and they would have to sponsor a visa. Even though they would not pay me. I even decline honorariums. Looks like I will do this but it is a shame for small NGOs who do some good activities. I am not naive.. nor am I willing to take risks as I have a Thai partner and we wish to continue to live together without taking risks. As soon as you do something outside the law or system you leave your self open to corruption. My motto is life is "Corruption stops with me" ....corruption keeps countries and people poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepool Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 <script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script> kitkathai Any genuine major NGO will ensure anyone "working " for such an organisation is in possession of any documentation needed to be "legal" ! It is the "fly by night" organisations coupled with the scam outfits which are the problem. I understand the frustration felt. We all started the process it just got too time consuming and complicated for the CBO. Just to be clear for those people who think I need this for extension of stay. I do not. I have money deposited and follow the law strictly I do not work. I have even had a government department invite me to train and consult. I had to remind them I would have to come off my visa and they would have to sponsor a visa. Even though they would not pay me. I even decline honorariums. Looks like I will do this but it is a shame for small NGOs who do some good activities. I am not naive.. nor am I willing to take risks as I have a Thai partner and we wish to continue to live together without taking risks. As soon as you do something outside the law or system you leave your self open to corruption. My motto is life is "Corruption stops with me" ....corruption keeps countries and people poor. In the past I have "worked" for MSF in some of the worst "hell holes" in the World. Guess what ? My Visa(s) and any other "permissions/paperwork" was arranged , on my behalf, by the organisation prior to departure ! As I implied previously badly organised/managed organisations should be avoided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitkathai Posted April 3, 2014 Author Share Posted April 3, 2014 Actually, most of the countries in the world require some form of employment documentation for volunteer or unpaid labor. As someone else pointed out, opportunists will use any loophole they can find to cover illegal work and quite honestly, sometimes hordes of eager volunteers are far more trouble than they are worth. It became a contentious issue in Thailand during the crisis immediately following the Tsunami in 2004. I do not mind some kind of documentation but changing the visa and a work permit are the not types of documentation that should be applied. Safety checks, professional checks yes!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitkathai Posted April 3, 2014 Author Share Posted April 3, 2014 If you are genuine about helping, then surely getting a work permit to do such things isn't really an issue? A somewhat naive response. I would have to change my visa and status here, the small CBO has to do a lot of paperwork and they are poorly equipped to do so. Have you ever seen what is involved. Yes, of course I am genuine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepool Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 <script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script> If you are genuine about helping, then surely getting a work permit to do such things isn't really an issue? A somewhat naive response. I would have to change my visa and status here, the small CBO has to do a lot of paperwork and they are poorly equipped to do so. Have you ever seen what is involved. Yes, of course I am genuine... More likely the small "CBO" does not have a clue ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitkathai Posted April 3, 2014 Author Share Posted April 3, 2014 (edited) <script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script> kitkathai Any genuine major NGO will ensure anyone "working " for such an organisation is in possession of any documentation needed to be "legal" ! It is the "fly by night" organisations coupled with the scam outfits which are the problem. I understand the frustration felt. We all started the process it just got too time consuming and complicated for the CBO. Just to be clear for those people who think I need this for extension of stay. I do not. I have money deposited and follow the law strictly I do not work. I have even had a government department invite me to train and consult. I had to remind them I would have to come off my visa and they would have to sponsor a visa. Even though they would not pay me. I even decline honorariums. Looks like I will do this but it is a shame for small NGOs who do some good activities. I am not naive.. nor am I willing to take risks as I have a Thai partner and we wish to continue to live together without taking risks. As soon as you do something outside the law or system you leave your self open to corruption. My motto is life is "Corruption stops with me" ....corruption keeps countries and people poor. In the past I have "worked" for MSF in some of the worst "hell holes" in the World. Guess what ? My Visa(s) and any other "permissions/paperwork" was arranged , on my behalf, by the organisation prior to departure ! As I implied previously badly organised/managed organisations should be avoided. No need to be arrogant.... I too have work permits organised prior to departure in the past. I worked here legitimately for 9 years and then retired. I have worked with INGOS and UN. I know the organisation as they used to get funded by one of the donors I worked with. Many donors have withdrawn support from Thailand as it is viewed as transitional economy however many small CBOs do good work and need support. They are small and the process is long and tedious. MSF is a large INGO I just thought I would like to help. It should not be so hard and expensive for them, or complicated for me. There should also be a system in place to reduce( cannot hope to eliminate) the chance of people like pedophiles or people who are members of criminal gangs infiltrate. Edited April 3, 2014 by kitkathai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitkathai Posted April 3, 2014 Author Share Posted April 3, 2014 <script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script> kitkathai Any genuine major NGO will ensure anyone "working " for such an organisation is in possession of any documentation needed to be "legal" ! It is the "fly by night" organisations coupled with the scam outfits which are the problem. I understand the frustration felt. We all started the process it just got too time consuming and complicated for the CBO. Just to be clear for those people who think I need this for extension of stay. I do not. I have money deposited and follow the law strictly I do not work. I have even had a government department invite me to train and consult. I had to remind them I would have to come off my visa and they would have to sponsor a visa. Even though they would not pay me. I even decline honorariums. Looks like I will do this but it is a shame for small NGOs who do some good activities. I am not naive.. nor am I willing to take risks as I have a Thai partner and we wish to continue to live together without taking risks. As soon as you do something outside the law or system you leave your self open to corruption. My motto is life is "Corruption stops with me" ....corruption keeps countries and people poor. In the past I have "worked" for MSF in some of the worst "hell holes" in the World. Guess what ? My Visa(s) and any other "permissions/paperwork" was arranged , on my behalf, by the organisation prior to departure ! As I implied previously badly organised/managed organisations should be avoided. No need to be arrogant.... I too have work permits organised prior to departure in the past. I worked here legitimately for 9 years and then retired. I have worked with INGOS and UN. I know the organisation as they used to get funded by one of the donors I worked with. Many donors have withdrawn support from Thailand as it is viewed as transitional economy however many small CBOs do good work and need support. They are small and the process is long and tedious. MSF is a large INGO I just thought I would like to help. It should not be so hard and expensive for them, or complicated for me. There should also be a system in place to reduce( cannot hope to eliminate) the chance of people like pedophiles or people who are members of criminal gangs infiltrate. I agree many organisations could benefit from administrative and organisational capacity building. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepool Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 <script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script> <script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script> kitkathai Any genuine major NGO will ensure anyone "working " for such an organisation is in possession of any documentation needed to be "legal" ! It is the "fly by night" organisations coupled with the scam outfits which are the problem. I understand the frustration felt. We all started the process it just got too time consuming and complicated for the CBO. Just to be clear for those people who think I need this for extension of stay. I do not. I have money deposited and follow the law strictly I do not work. I have even had a government department invite me to train and consult. I had to remind them I would have to come off my visa and they would have to sponsor a visa. Even though they would not pay me. I even decline honorariums. Looks like I will do this but it is a shame for small NGOs who do some good activities. I am not naive.. nor am I willing to take risks as I have a Thai partner and we wish to continue to live together without taking risks. As soon as you do something outside the law or system you leave your self open to corruption. My motto is life is "Corruption stops with me" ....corruption keeps countries and people poor. In the past I have "worked" for MSF in some of the worst "hell holes" in the World. Guess what ? My Visa(s) and any other "permissions/paperwork" was arranged , on my behalf, by the organisation prior to departure ! As I implied previously badly organised/managed organisations should be avoided. No need to be arrogant.... I too have work permits organised prior to departure in the past. I worked here legitimately for 9 years and then retired. I have worked with INGOS and UN. I know the organisation as they used to get funded by one of the donors I worked with. Many donors have withdrawn support from Thailand as it is viewed as transitional economy however many small CBOs do good work and need support. They are small and the process is long and tedious. MSF is a large INGO I just thought I would like to help. It should not be so hard and expensive for them, or complicated for me. There should also be a system in place to reduce( cannot hope to eliminate) the chance of people like pedophiles or people who are members of criminal gangs infiltrate. No "arrogance" implied or intended. If as you imply work has been undertaken with IGNO's in the past the truth I tell should be self evident! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitkathai Posted April 3, 2014 Author Share Posted April 3, 2014 <script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script> If you are genuine about helping, then surely getting a work permit to do such things isn't really an issue? A somewhat naive response. I would have to change my visa and status here, the small CBO has to do a lot of paperwork and they are poorly equipped to do so. Have you ever seen what is involved. Yes, of course I am genuine... More likely the small "CBO" does not have a clue ! True, many small organisations could benefit from training in organisation and capacity development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepool Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 <script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script> <script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script> If you are genuine about helping, then surely getting a work permit to do such things isn't really an issue? A somewhat naive response. I would have to change my visa and status here, the small CBO has to do a lot of paperwork and they are poorly equipped to do so. Have you ever seen what is involved. Yes, of course I am genuine... More likely the small "CBO" does not have a clue ! True, many small organisations could benefit from training in organisation and capacity development. Sorry , I had no wish to denigrate your , I have no doubt, genuine desire to donate skills and knowledge backed by substantial experience. Unfortunately some these small organisations do more harm than good without even realising the damage caused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon43 Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 (edited) If you are genuine about helping, then surely getting a work permit to do such things isn't really an issue? It can be an issue if the organisation is unwilling to make the effort to provide the supporting doumentation, I(in exactly the same way as many schools cannot be bothered to provide documentation to enable their foreign teachers to get WPs). And not wishing to rake up old stories, but I exhausted myself trying to persuade my police superiors to provide supporting documentation to enable myself and my tourist police volunteer colleagues to get WPs - in the end I gave up because my superiors were getting irritated by my requests..... Simon If you were allowed in then the next guy allowed might be a pedophile Er.. or the next woman could be a pedophile.... it isn't unique to males by far Edited April 3, 2014 by simon43 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larsjohnsson Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 (edited) Example: I cannot provide free medical help to people here, because that is activity that would infringe on same activity that a Thai-licensed doctor would do. Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand Can you do that in other countries? You couldn't do it in Sweden where I come from. And I expect it would be the same in most western countries. You need a license from my country if working as a doctor. Even if it was for free as charity Edited April 3, 2014 by larsjohnsson 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larsjohnsson Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Actually, most of the countries in the world require some form of employment documentation for volunteer or unpaid labor. As someone else pointed out, opportunists will use any loophole they can find to cover illegal work and quite honestly, sometimes hordes of eager volunteers are far more trouble than they are worth. It became a contentious issue in Thailand during the crisis immediately following the Tsunami in 2004. I do not mind some kind of documentation but changing the visa and a work permit are the not types of documentation that should be applied. Safety checks, professional checks yes!!! But the visa for "Volunteer" have different and other requirements than your extension of stay. Why should you avoid those requirements that the others have to show? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepool Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 <script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script> Example: I cannot provide free medical help to people here, because that is activity that would infringe on same activity that a Thai-licensed doctor would do.Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect ThailandCan you do that in other countries? You couldn't do it in Sweden where I come from. And I expect it would be the same in most western countries. You need a license from my country if working as a doctor. Even if it was for free as charity Obtaining a Thai medical license would involve taking the Thai medical examinations in the Thai language . Once obtained one could practice ! (With a work permit ! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larsjohnsson Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Example: I cannot provide free medical help to people here, because that is activity that would infringe on same activity that a Thai-licensed doctor would do. Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand Can you do that in other countries? You couldn't do it in Sweden where I come from. And I expect it would be the same in most western countries. You need a license from my country if working as a doctor. Even if it was for free as charity Obtaining a Thai medical license would involve taking the Thai medical examinations in the Thai language . Once obtained one could practice ! (With a work permit ! ) It's about the same in my country. Including the part in learning the language. It would be dangerous to work as a doctor without being able to speak with the patients 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samran Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 If you are genuine about helping, then surely getting a work permit to do such things isn't really an issue?A somewhat naive response. I would have to change my visa and status here, the small CBO has to do a lot of paperwork and they are poorly equipped to do so. Have you ever seen what is involved. Yes, of course I am genuine... How is it naive? You are on a particular visa where you are retired. There are other channels, which yes involve paperwork, but which so require you to shift off your retirement status to something else. There are avenues for this but it sounds like the issue is with the litte charity that you are trying to do stuff for. And that is where the issue lies really isn't it!? The capacity and potentially credibility of the little NGO. You stated in your title - does Thailand want help? Maybe the better question is does the little NGO really want your help? If they did I dare say the paperwork wouldn't be hard all of a sudden for them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryLH Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 OP, maybe you could help them navigate the paperwork. Once they've learned what's needed, it might lead to many others being able to volunteer legally with them. It might not be what you originally intended, but volunteering to do something like this would still be helping. "You stated in your title - does Thailand want help? Maybe the better question is does the little NGO really want your help? If they did I dare say the paperwork wouldn't be hard all of a sudden for them." Nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kriswillems Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Really, it's not worth to do volunteer work only a few hours per week or for a little organisation. The amount of money and time lost on paperwork, is probably more than the work you would do for them. I would not get a work permit for this. If you don't make enemies and it not a job which creates a lot of publicity, Thai people are very reasonable. I don't believe you would get problems. And even if you get caught it's not the end of the world. The judge deciding about your case would be very mild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatrice Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 For the person who suggested the organization does not want my help ...they approached me for help! I can only give a little time evry month however it it is a lot of work for them! I also do not want to change visa etc. I could however decide to use this as a way to guide them in the process and try to get a few other people to help out. How do I end this discussion thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puccini Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 I understand this is to stop sleazy farengs who try to get around legitimate ways to stay and earn money in Thailand. Who or what are "farengs"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Maestro Posted April 3, 2014 Popular Post Share Posted April 3, 2014 For the person who suggested the organization does not want my help ...they approached me for help! I can only give a little time evry month however it it is a lot of work for them! I also do not want to change visa etc. I could however decide to use this as a way to guide them in the process and try to get a few other people to help out. How do I end this discussion thread? You don't. It's just like with a discussion at a cocktail party. If you no longer want to participate in it, you walk away, but you can't stop other people from continuing the discussion if they feel like doing so. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samran Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 For the person who suggested the organization does not want my help ...they approached me for help! I can only give a little time evry month however it it is a lot of work for them! I also do not want to change visa etc. I could however decide to use this as a way to guide them in the process and try to get a few other people to help out. How do I end this discussion thread? I thought that the OP was someone named Kitkathai? Sloppy... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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