TRT Targeted For Dissolution

[tettyan]

True.. The EC said that a large party was involved. It's only you guys that have concluded that it could only be the TRT.

Not quite. I didn't believe the allegations until the conclusions of the EC sub-panel headed by Justice Nam named TRT as the "large party". So no, this isn't just hearsay or speculation.

That said, as much as I hate TRT, dissolving a political party is an extremely drastic move, and shouldn't be an action that is taken lightly. So far, I think Pongsak and Thammarak are finished, as it seems there are limits to which the Leader will defend them. The two will likely face a 5-year ban from politics. This would be quite a blow in itself - Thammarak is Thaksin's man in Isarn, while Pojamarn needs Pongsak to control the other factions. As for going so far as dissolving the party though, I'd be careful - unless it's proven that Thaksin himself knew about the plot or was involved somehow.

Are there any lesser punishments that can be meted out short of dissolution? Such as some form of sanctions that would require the party's finances to be closely audited by the courts for the next five years, or the like?

Edited June 10, 2006 by tettyan

[ando]

Love them or hate them, banning a party that has the support of the majority of voters would be like cutting the heart out of democracy. Whatever comes of this process, I hope it doesn't end up just handing government to a party like the Democrats which doesn't truly represent the majority of Thai people.

[ovenman]

That said, as much as I hate TRT, dissolving a political party is an extremely drastic move, and shouldn't be an action that is taken lightly.

Same here. Seems like all one does by banning the party and/or the bulk of its members is create a whole contingent of politcal martyrs. Seems to me like it makes more sense to punish the individual wrongdoers rather than the party as a whole.

[John K]

It may be extreme but the law was written before the TRT. I trust it was meant to keep politicians straight. At some point an example must be set. The USA is doing that with pedofile that was just deported. It may be like swatting a fly with a sledge hammer, but it does get the job done.

I can’t help but wonder if the TRT got a chance to rewrite the constitution, that would be the first part cut.

[lukamar]

It may be extreme but the law was written before the TRT.

I may not remember this correctly, if so I'm sure someone will correct me.

The law that allowed Thaksin to sell his shares of Shin, tax free were also written pre TRT, has to make you wonder who the pre TRT party was trying to help.

[John K]

I think Thaksin changed that law. This was heard and not read so I don’t know for sure. Remember his claim everything he did was legal.

[Thaiquila]

That said, as much as I hate TRT, dissolving a political party is an extremely drastic move, and shouldn't be an action that is taken lightly.

Same here. Seems like all one does by banning the party and/or the bulk of its members is create a whole contingent of politcal martyrs. Seems to me like it makes more sense to punish the individual wrongdoers rather than the party as a whole.

Historically, TRT is a very new party. I don't see that dissolving it as that serious a change. There are plenty of other parties for the former members to ally with after dissolution, if it occurs.

[John K]

Good point. In my younger days I was a member of the party all night party.

[lukamar]

There are plenty of other parties for the former members to ally with after dissolution, if it occurs.

Quite true. Problem is - the Northerners have already rejected all other parties as a viable alternative and picked the TRT, more than once. Forcing the majority of the Thai voters to choose some party they have already rejected is not exactly a step forward for democracy. Might as well put a bunch of names in a hat and draw lots or give the government back to the military as that would be just as representative.

[h90]

There are plenty of other parties for the former members to ally with after dissolution, if it occurs.

Quite true. Problem is - the Northerners have already rejected all other parties as a viable alternative and picked the TRT, more than once. Forcing the majority of the Thai voters to choose some party they have already rejected is not exactly a step forward for democracy. Might as well put a bunch of names in a hat and draw lots or give the government back to the military as that would be just as representative.

come on 300 Baht per person and they will love any other party.

[lukamar]

There are plenty of other parties for the former members to ally with after dissolution, if it occurs.

Quite true. Problem is - the Northerners have already rejected all other parties as a viable alternative and picked the TRT, more than once. Forcing the majority of the Thai voters to choose some party they have already rejected is not exactly a step forward for democracy. Might as well put a bunch of names in a hat and draw lots or give the government back to the military as that would be just as representative.

come on 300 Baht per person and they will love any other party.

The Demos were paying more than that in the North before the last TRT landslide and they didn't get in. The Southerners must be selling themselves short.

[John K]

h90; sarcastic but more than likely true.

[jdinasia]

It may be extreme but the law was written before the TRT.

I may not remember this correctly, if so I'm sure someone will correct me.

The law that allowed Thaksin to sell his shares of Shin, tax free were also written pre TRT, has to make you wonder who the pre TRT party was trying to help.

Nope the law that allowed him to sell his shares was written THIS year. Before this year the limit on foriegn ownership of a Thai telecom was 25%

[jdinasia]

There are plenty of other parties for the former members to ally with after dissolution, if it occurs.

Quite true. Problem is - the Northerners have already rejected all other parties as a viable alternative and picked the TRT, more than once. Forcing the majority of the Thai voters to choose some party they have already rejected is not exactly a step forward for democracy. Might as well put a bunch of names in a hat and draw lots or give the government back to the military as that would be just as representative.

Yeah !! Screw the law! The Rule of Law! Corruption! Forget it all! .... TRT got more votes than anyone else so don't worry about the real meaning of Democracy! Just let a party that is scheduled for dissolution due to a charge of deliberately subverting Democtacy e!

((not to mention the fact that "the Demos were paying more)) ... WOW ... can't believe the lengths that some rabid pro-TRT folks will go to to justify the behaviour ....

Edited June 11, 2006 by jdinasia

[lukamar]

Yeah !! Screw the law! The Rule of Law! Corruption! Forget it all! .... TRT got more votes than anyone else so don't worry about the real meaning of Democracy! Just let a party that is scheduled for dissolution due to a charge of deliberately subverting Democtacy e!

((not to mention the fact that "the Demos were paying more)) ... WOW ... can't believe the lengths that some rabid pro-TRT folks will go to to justify the behaviour ....

Re read your reply and you will rethink your stand on who the "rabid people" are here. It appears as a rabid anti-TRT non-supporter that you don't want to discuss anything that isn't in your rabid PAD anti-Thaksin agenda.

[John K]

It may be extreme but the law was written before the TRT.

I may not remember this correctly, if so I'm sure someone will correct me.

The law that allowed Thaksin to sell his shares of Shin, tax free were also written pre TRT, has to make you wonder who the pre TRT party was trying to help.

Nope the law that allowed him to sell his shares was written THIS year. Before this year the limit on foriegn ownership of a Thai telecom was 25%

That matches what I heard, and it only took 1 hour to change. I guess that is how long it took to type it up. (not sure of the 1 hour time frame)

Note; In a Democratic government it takes day if not weeks to change things.

In a Dictatorship just minutes.

If the law was this year, then it was only hours from the transaction. I think it was around Jan. 6 for Shin.

Edited June 11, 2006 by john Krukowski

[jdinasia]

Yeah !! Screw the law! The Rule of Law! Corruption! Forget it all! .... TRT got more votes than anyone else so don't worry about the real meaning of Democracy! Just let a party that is scheduled for dissolution due to a charge of deliberately subverting Democtacy e!

((not to mention the fact that "the Demos were paying more)) ... WOW ... can't believe the lengths that some rabid pro-TRT folks will go to to justify the behaviour ....

Re read your reply and you will rethink your stand on who the "rabid people" are here. It appears as a rabid anti-TRT non-supporter that you don't want to discuss anything that isn't in your rabid PAD anti-Thaksin agenda.

LOL ... well here's a simple answer for you ... get someone here to prove that the Demos are paying for votes directly and that it is known at the highest level of the party ... then get them disbanded or DQ's ... but you keep shifting from the topic ... and skipping over the evidence so far available to us ... and saying ... "Wait ... all that matters is that there were elections ... doesn't matter that they were one party ... doesn't matter that the only party REALLY running apparently violated election law by paying small parties to run so they could bypass the 20% rule etc etc"

Your "They did it <unproven> so forget that TRT did it" <also not a point of contention really ....>

falls sadly short on a reasonable argument.

If it is proven to the satisfaction of the committee that was responsible for researching it that TRT has violated the law in this manner .... what do YOU think should be done? <<doesn't matter as sadly the law appears clear ..>>

[hammered]

There are plenty of other parties for the former members to ally with after dissolution, if it occurs.

Quite true. Problem is - the Northerners have already rejected all other parties as a viable alternative and picked the TRT, more than once. Forcing the majority of the Thai voters to choose some party they have already rejected is not exactly a step forward for democracy. Might as well put a bunch of names in a hat and draw lots or give the government back to the military as that would be just as representative.

But a few years ago virtually all the Isaan voted NAP. The NAP then joined TRT. If all those ex-NAP MPs leave TRT they'll probably still remain popular with the Isaan voters. Then up North maybe the ex-Dem MPs who joined TRT will find a new home while remaining popular. We should remember a lot of the TRT MPS were happily getting elected while standing for other parties befor ethey joined TRT in what was termed "the great suck". It is quite likely these same people would be elected whatever party they stood for. They will, however, probably not get the level of financial support they are currently accustomed to.

[h90]

There are plenty of other parties for the former members to ally with after dissolution, if it occurs.

Quite true. Problem is - the Northerners have already rejected all other parties as a viable alternative and picked the TRT, more than once. Forcing the majority of the Thai voters to choose some party they have already rejected is not exactly a step forward for democracy. Might as well put a bunch of names in a hat and draw lots or give the government back to the military as that would be just as representative.

come on 300 Baht per person and they will love any other party.

The Demos were paying more than that in the North before the last TRT landslide and they didn't get in. The Southerners must be selling themselves short.

So you agree that TRT paid people to vote them, right? (paying more means that someone paid).

Paying people to vote for you is in all countries illegal and more than a reason to disolve a party.

[lukamar]

So you agree that TRT paid people to vote them, right? (paying more means that someone paid).

Paying people to vote for you is in all countries illegal and more than a reason to disolve a party.

Of course they do, I've said that before. The point a lot of posters here don't want to see is, so do ALL the other parties, or at least in the areas of the North that my extended family lives, 3 provinces. They are all equally to blame for vote buying it's corruption on a vast scale in Thailand from the top down. Anyone living in Thailand for any length of time, Farang or Thai, has passed some cash to someone sometime for something that's the way it is, that's the way it has been and that's the way it will probably stay for some time to come.

[jdinasia]

Geeze Luk ... paying for votes as you say your fellows that won the election is not very democratic .... <<Therefore it is hard to argue that they won anything or that the vast majority of the people wanted them at all ... apparently you say they paid for votes ... so the vast majority wanted the $$>>

and you skipped the second part of that 2 liner you responded to .... Bieng caught vote buying certainly qualifies the candidate for being excluded from politics for 5 years ... and if the money comes from the party coffers ... there goes the party.

Edited June 11, 2006 by jdinasia

[lukamar]

and you skipped the second part of that 2 liner you responded to

Don't think so. I said, "so do ALL the other parties,". They all do it,they are all just a guilty, Or is it you only want to see your vision of it, I can see that there is another side. Sometime you should push your hatred aside and realize that there are two sides to a coin.

[ilyushin]

Auk Pai TRT! Let us see if this happens "TRT Targeted For Dissolution" or not.

[h90]

So you agree that TRT paid people to vote them, right? (paying more means that someone paid).

Paying people to vote for you is in all countries illegal and more than a reason to disolve a party.

Of course they do, I've said that before. The point a lot of posters here don't want to see is, so do ALL the other parties, or at least in the areas of the North that my extended family lives, 3 provinces. They are all equally to blame for vote buying it's corruption on a vast scale in Thailand from the top down. Anyone living in Thailand for any length of time, Farang or Thai, has passed some cash to someone sometime for something that's the way it is, that's the way it has been and that's the way it will probably stay for some time to come.

for example yesterday I passed 50 Baht cash to the small supermarket and they gave me something (1 bottle singha) thats the way it is OK.

If other parties also do it, it is one more reason to disolve TRT for it to show the other parties what may happen. Of course the others also did it, but TRT in the largest scale and most easy to prove.

So disolve TRT, and after the next election disolve the next party which did the same.

If you stay at court for killing someone, it would sound very strange if your arguments are:

Also other people killed someone.

Killing people happens, thats the way it is, it has been and it the way it will be....

that sounds crazy right? But you use the same strategie in your arguments.

As well if you accept that parties just buy themself into parliament, why do we run elections, it is just a waste of money, let the most rich beeing the ruler for lifetime or unless his bankaccount is the biggest. It was in the past so it will be in future is really a weak argument.

[hammered]

So you agree that TRT paid people to vote them, right? (paying more means that someone paid).

Paying people to vote for you is in all countries illegal and more than a reason to disolve a party.

Of course they do, I've said that before. The point a lot of posters here don't want to see is, so do ALL the other parties, or at least in the areas of the North that my extended family lives, 3 provinces. They are all equally to blame for vote buying it's corruption on a vast scale in Thailand from the top down. Anyone living in Thailand for any length of time, Farang or Thai, has passed some cash to someone sometime for something that's the way it is, that's the way it has been and that's the way it will probably stay for some time to come.

A tad cynical to say everyone in Thailand has passed money at some time. According to my wife she has never paid corruption money for anyting ever, and I doubt she is the only one. She also says neither her nor her mother have ever taken money or handouts from anyone especially politicians after votes. Again I doubt they are the only family. I would not question corruption is widespread but to suggest absolutely everyone is involved is taking it a bit far.

[Plus]

The first TRT's reaction was to distance the party from Thamarak. I don't think it wil work with courts. Thamarak had no personal interests or motives to bribe small parties or falsify EC's official records. He's one of the top party list MPs, one of the top party's executives, and he was acting in whole party's interests.

Lower ranked TRT members were surely not quilty for his crimes and Nam's report pointed to Thaksin who should be held responsible for Thamarak's actions.

What will eventually happen? Will TRT be dissolved? Possible scenarios, in rising order - Thamarak alone goes down, Thamarak and Thaksin are found guilty and banned from politics for five years, the whole executive board takes the blame and is banned from politics, or, in addition to the above the whole party is dissolved but ordinary party members face no punishment and can run in the elections under any other party's banner.

I seriosly doubt that in the current climate Thamarak will get away scot-free. It would have been certain last year when courts were TRT friendly, but the tide has turned. With EC openly challenging courts power on behalf of TRT, TRT can hardly expect any sympathy from judges.

[ilyushin]

Thaksin will distance the party even more from Thamarak, but Iunderstand that this may include up to 127 possible MP prospectives.

Who delegated the job to Thamarak? How many MOD Ministers has Thaksin had already?

If TRT ( Thaksin and buds) get off the entire system has failed.

5 year banned from politics is less than a parking ticket. Get a rope!

[ovenman]

Possible scenarios, in rising order - Thamarak alone goes down,...

That's what I would predict were this the West and there weren't the whole concept of face needing to be saved. Throw Thamarak under the bus alone and make him take the fall for the whole shebang. Factoring in the concept of face though, who knows...

[penzman]

The first TRT's reaction was to distance the party from Thamarak. I don't think it wil work with courts. Thamarak had no personal interests or motives to bribe small parties or falsify EC's official records. He's one of the top party list MPs, one of the top party's executives, and he was acting in whole party's interests.

Lower ranked TRT members were surely not quilty for his crimes and Nam's report pointed to Thaksin who should be held responsible for Thamarak's actions.

What will eventually happen? Will TRT be dissolved? Possible scenarios, in rising order - Thamarak alone goes down, Thamarak and Thaksin are found guilty and banned from politics for five years, the whole executive board takes the blame and is banned from politics, or, in addition to the above the whole party is dissolved but ordinary party members face no punishment and can run in the elections under any other party's banner.

I seriosly doubt that in the current climate Thamarak will get away scot-free. It would have been certain last year when courts were TRT friendly, but the tide has turned. With EC openly challenging courts power on behalf of TRT, TRT can hardly expect any sympathy from judges.

...and not learn a lesson personally only to function the same way again elsewhere?

I say ban them all. No one was pointing a gun at their heads preventing them to jump ship (as far as I know) if they were really honest. Not leaving a party that acted the way it did tells me they approved of it and it makes them just as guilty.

[jdinasia]

am not so sure I agree with that Penz ....

the low level folks may have had no real knowledge of what the bosses were doing ....

it takes a certain mind-set to look for the answers and make decisions and not just keep on truckin