'Totally inappropriate': Tourist's shock at Buddhist temple in Thailand

[SICHONSTEVE]

The destruction of the Twin Towers was for some...a strike against American Heavy handedness...in foreign affairs...not all people were sorry to see the World's symbol of wealth and power...come down....

This is very true. Just months after 9/11, I had to ride all the way across Cambodia with a Muslim taxi driver who spent the entire trip (8 hours) drilling me with the same opinion. Having been shell-shocked from the tragedy (I was in the Twin Towers less than a week before 9/11), it was hard to keep quiet and listen. But I did. I really wanted to know not only his opinion but its roots. I simply kept asking probing questions to get deeper.

I did come away from my cross-country attempted indoctrination with one conviction: To hold this view shows a callous disregard for the lives and families of over 3,000 victims. It's too high of a price to pay for a political statement, IMHO. I continue to take quite a dim view toward those who will willingly make such high sacrifices of so many others' lives to "make a point" politically.

But they are prepared to sacrifice their lives 'for the cause' so that it reveals the strength as to their perceived wrong doings of America in interfering in other countries matters.

I too cannot personally comprehend why they choose to blow themselves up but that is clearly down to those people (who never volunteer themselves to commit these dastardly acts) telling lies to vulnerable and impressionable people that they should sacrifice their lives.

I do however, think that the US could do itself a huge favour by letting the world get on with itself and stop interfering in others problems

(always with the reason of it being in THEIR national interests).

[slipperylobster]

OK, after quoting the poster's reply verbatim above, please let me add annotations to make a few points:

(red = poster's words I would like to emphasize; blue = my comments.)

Let me get this right. Sorry, but your brilliant hyperbole thrusts you further afield.

What you are saying is when the kids are old enough to understand, then they are bombarded with history relating to all the wrong doings and bad things

The poster's words, not mine. A bit over the top. No, really over the top.

America has done/committed over the last 50-70 years!!

You're a sloppy reader. The literature as been written over the last 50-70 years, not the acts/wrong doings.

Does this continue into their university years 'just to wrap it all up' for completeness sake?

The curriculum becomes more intense in critical thinking, rather than simply a retelling of historical events, as is done in the earlier levels.

They must leave their education years behind despising themselves, feeling guilty beyond comprehension and completely lacking in confidence!!

No, just the opposite. The goal of the curriculum is to come away with a balanced view of history along with conclusions that are a result of critical thinking, and which point to a better way. Your viewpoint is exactly what the Japanese and Thai educators say about the glaring omissions in their own educational curriculums. (Which are, for example, the Japanese students' ignorance about Japan's WW2 rapacious activities in China, and Thai students' ignorance about Thai cooperation with Japanese invaders in the same war.)

Unfortunately, your posts reveal a profound ignorance of American culture and the educational system. You should really quit while you're ahead before you make yourself look even more ridiculous. IMHO, of course!

I sort of understand that the red and blue colors represent two other posters.

Just for clarification purposes, I have chosen green...so not to be confused with the previous two posters.

[Traveler19491]

First, the "offended" person had to travel to Thailand, at no small cost, and expend not insignificant amounts of money to visit, all the while knowing that they were traveling to a foreign culture, whose value system most likely did not mirror their own. Second, they visited this site, not knowing what they might find, or if what they found might possibly offend their sensitivities. Third, they entered this temple, knowing in advance that this work of art was most definitely "different" (I mean you have to cross a bridge with thousands of hands reaching up at you from the "pits of hell"), and then they get "offended", and just to make sure that they can chronicle their "outrage", they violate temple rules by taking a photograph inside the sacred area...and don't seem to think that this might offend the Buddhists. I'd be curious to know if they express the same outrage at children dying of hunger in the West, an area of the world that enjoys the highest standard of living in the world. Or if they are outraged at the slaughter of thousands of innocents in wars manufactured for profit? But they want to express their moral indignation at a work of art. Get a grip. One of the principal functions of art is to "offend", to make you think, to make you analyze your own thought processes and determine what your values really are. This person's idea of art is probably anything by Thomas Kincaid.

[Fookhaht]

The destruction of the Twin Towers was for some...a strike against American Heavy handedness...in foreign affairs...not all people were sorry to see the World's symbol of wealth and power...come down....

This is very true. Just months after 9/11, I had to ride all the way across Cambodia with a Muslim taxi driver who spent the entire trip (8 hours) drilling me with the same opinion. Having been shell-shocked from the tragedy (I was in the Twin Towers less than a week before 9/11), it was hard to keep quiet and listen. But I did. I really wanted to know not only his opinion but its roots. I simply kept asking probing questions to get deeper.

I did come away from my cross-country attempted indoctrination with one conviction: To hold this view shows a callous disregard for the lives and families of over 3,000 victims. It's too high of a price to pay for a political statement, IMHO. I continue to take quite a dim view toward those who will willingly make such high sacrifices of so many others' lives to "make a point" politically.

But they are prepared to sacrifice their lives 'for the cause' so that it reveals the strength as to their perceived wrong doings of America in interfering in other countries matters.

I too cannot personally comprehend why they choose to blow themselves up but that is clearly down to those people (who never volunteer themselves to commit these dastardly acts) telling lies to vulnerable and impressionable people that they should sacrifice their lives.

I do however, think that the US could do itself a huge favour by letting the world get on with itself and stop interfering in others problems

(always with the reason of it being in THEIR national interests).

You open up the Pandora's box of the discussion of the USA's attempts to deal with foreign terrorists coming into her borders, and what prompted it. I don't believe we're going to solve that issue here.

Suggest we go back to the topic of the appropriateness of it being a temple mural in a Thai Buddhist place of worship.

Edited April 10, 2014 by Fookhaht

[IvanLaw]

Even saw in Christian church in Bangkok,

A man depicted nailed to a cross.

(Pictures & Carvings)

Disgusting.

[Fookhaht]

Even saw in Christian church in Bangkok,

A man depicted nailed to a cross.

(Pictures & Carvings)

Disgusting.

Apples vs. Oranges (to put it mildly).

What shocked you (I have a hard time believing that) is indeed central to the doctrine of Christianity. And your personal take on it is an affront to all Christians.

An attack on the World Trade Center is not quite "central" to Buddhist doctrine. Most fail to see the connection, which is why its appropriateness is the topic of discussion here.

[ChiangMike]

I guess only an American would call this inappropriate.

Didn't even make the American newspapers.

Gratefully.

[Fookhaht]

OK, after quoting the poster's reply verbatim above, please let me add annotations to make a few points:

(red = poster's words I would like to emphasize; blue = my comments.)

Let me get this right. Sorry, but your brilliant hyperbole thrusts you further afield.

What you are saying is when the kids are old enough to understand, then they are bombarded with history relating to all the wrong doings and bad things

The poster's words, not mine. A bit over the top. No, really over the top.

America has done/committed over the last 50-70 years!!

You're a sloppy reader. The literature as been written over the last 50-70 years, not the acts/wrong doings.

Does this continue into their university years 'just to wrap it all up' for completeness sake?

The curriculum becomes more intense in critical thinking, rather than simply a retelling of historical events, as is done in the earlier levels.

They must leave their education years behind despising themselves, feeling guilty beyond comprehension and completely lacking in confidence!!

No, just the opposite. The goal of the curriculum is to come away with a balanced view of history along with conclusions that are a result of critical thinking, and which point to a better way. Your viewpoint is exactly what the Japanese and Thai educators say about the glaring omissions in their own educational curriculums. (Which are, for example, the Japanese students' ignorance about Japan's WW2 rapacious activities in China, and Thai students' ignorance about Thai cooperation with Japanese invaders in the same war.)

Unfortunately, your posts reveal a profound ignorance of American culture and the educational system. You should really quit while you're ahead before you make yourself look even more ridiculous. IMHO, of course!

I sort of understand that the red and blue colors represent two other posters.

Just for clarification purposes, I have chosen green...so not to be confused with the previous two posters.

Purple chosen just to clarify that these comments are not related to my previous post.

Thank you for at least helping to get us into the Christmas spirit with all this colorful ornamentation. Or maybe a hint of Songkran's colorful shirts?

[maximillian]

Totally, totally inappropriate.

But not surprising - this is Thailand, land of the ignorant

Simon

Who are you, Simon, to critisize an artists work ? Never heard of freedom of art ?

Edited April 10, 2014 by maximillian

[ChiangMike]

This image appears to me to be a legitimate work of art.

It seems the artist is extremely talented.

Whether such provocative art belongs in wats though, that I don't know, as I don't pretend to understand Thai Buddhist culture.

I think an art gallery would be better.

Yes, even in New York. Maybe better in New York.

Art is more than something that looks pretty over your sofa, my dears.

Agree except for the 'extremely' and dears parts. A refreshingly thoughtful post.

I'm commissioning a mural which will depict militant commandoes in high spirits singing "Obama uber alles" crashing a gay wedding ceremony and forcing the poor couple to take part in culture training by swearing absolute allegiance and damning the evil Russian Ugandan fascist Brendan Eich. In the background Obama will have a wily grin pocketing an influx of contributions from both the commandoes and their bewildered naysayers while a confused and weary Eich sneaks into the 7/11 across the street to purchase a slurpee with his food stamps.

Now, that's an American mural.

[PiPiFFS]

The fact that the person who found this artwork offensive was British is no surprise to me at all. In the UK today we have an army of professional " Offendee's "who spend all their time hunting down articles and videos on the internet where they can find offence on behalf of other people. Just like this moron. He isn't American for a start, he for sure didn't lose anyone close to him in the attack and just finds this offensive because he is sure that some American might so he is.

Art has always been provocative yet today the politically correct Nazi's, yes Nazi's because that is what they are , are intent in closing down all free speech and expression unless it agrees with what they think.

Sorry but for me that isn't ever going to happen. I will always say what I think. And will carry on doing so till the day I die. As much as that may upset some of the hypersensitive little darlings out there

[alphaboy123]

I have to agree ... totally inappropriate.

No planes ever hit the Twin Towers!

[rgs2001uk]

Does this artist do prints?

Wouldnt mind a print of that painting myself, love the irony of it.

[thailiketoo]

Does this artist do prints?

Wouldnt mind a print of that painting myself, love the irony of it.

What do you find ironic?

[rgs2001uk]

Does this artist do prints?

Wouldnt mind a print of that painting myself, love the irony of it.

What do you find ironic?

A previous poster has already explained it.

I was lucky enough to witness Bob Calvert at his best on the 1977 Spirit Of The Age tour, he came onstage complete with the swords as he knocked out a belting version of Hassan I Sahba.

You are either on the bus or you are off it, some get it others dont.

[thailiketoo]

Does this artist do prints?

Wouldnt mind a print of that painting myself, love the irony of it.

What do you find ironic?

A previous poster has already explained it.

I was lucky enough to witness Bob Calvert at his best on the 1977 Spirit Of The Age tour, he came onstage complete with the swords as he knocked out a belting version of Hassan I Sahba.

You are either on the bus or you are off it, some get it others dont.

I did a search and you are the only poster who has mentioned irony in this topic. And what does that song have to do with the painting?

Edited April 10, 2014 by thailiketoo

[rgs2001uk]

^^^^^^ I can only assume, you aint on the bus.

[philw]

Well, if i go to a Buddhist temple, i go for relax and peace of mind, for all the rest we have everyday life & the <deleted>' media.

As i said in a previous post, i hate loud music and drunkards in the temple too.

Temples are like community centres in my country.

Not all that go to temples are enlightened beings. Just like not all that go to Churches in my country are enlightened. I used to go to church discos where many were taking drugs, alcohol and sniffing glue. Lots of people would go to the church for midnight mass straight from the boozer.

I often hear things like "I saw monks in Panthip plaza buying computers or smoking, aren't they hypocrites" etc. If you are one of those, think what your motive in trying to put them down is. I've drank whisky with a monk before, so what - he was an alcoholic that as trying to get well. Many men ordain as they have little other choice. Some are ex-criminals, some sick but they are accepted as of course they should be.

Anyone saying the picture is inappropriate doesn't understand the place of the Thai temple, IMHO.

The picture may be teaching a valuable lesson to its people - the evils of capitalism or something. There's a lot more to those twin towers that most Americans I know don't even ant to investigate.

.

While appreciating you point of view, i disagree... I would never drink whisky with a monk, and i don't go to temple to see violent images or behaviours.. What's next. a slaughterhouse in the temple premises ?

Count on Suthep, AV and the Dems to organise that........

Much ballyhoo about nothing with the picture, in my opinion.

Edited April 10, 2014 by philw

[thailiketoo]

^^^^^^ I can only assume, you aint on the bus.

I assume you don't know what irony means in relationship to the painting in the Wat and the video is off topic and has nothing to do with the painting.

[rgs2001uk]

^^^^^^ I can only assume, you aint on the bus.

I assume you don't know what irony means in relationship to the painting in the Wat and the video is off topic and has nothing to do with the painting.

Some people get it others dont.

Never mind, look on it this way, (regards the painting) its just an illusion.

That aside, where can I buy a copy?

I like the works of H Bosch, Dali and Barney Bubbles, that will go well in my music room.

[kevvy]

It's the PC world in attack mode.

It's a private place, a private artist giving his private impressions.

It's a sad world when we try and censor the free will of an Artist.

I've been there ... it's different, but I wasn't offended.

Daily Mail rubbish to stir it up and sell a couple of papers.

Actually, from memory (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) but the taking of photos inside the Temple was not allowed?

How can it be private when thousands go in there each year . It is a public place ... So if an artist draws or paints nude pictures of twin babies so everyone can see you would not be offended .

[mauGR1]

Well, if i go to a Buddhist temple, i go for relax and peace of mind, for all the rest we have everyday life & the <deleted>' media.

As i said in a previous post, i hate loud music and drunkards in the temple too.

Temples are like community centres in my country.

Not all that go to temples are enlightened beings. Just like not all that go to Churches in my country are enlightened. I used to go to church discos where many were taking drugs, alcohol and sniffing glue. Lots of people would go to the church for midnight mass straight from the boozer.

I often hear things like "I saw monks in Panthip plaza buying computers or smoking, aren't they hypocrites" etc. If you are one of those, think what your motive in trying to put them down is. I've drank whisky with a monk before, so what - he was an alcoholic that as trying to get well. Many men ordain as they have little other choice. Some are ex-criminals, some sick but they are accepted as of course they should be.

Anyone saying the picture is inappropriate doesn't understand the place of the Thai temple, IMHO.

The picture may be teaching a valuable lesson to its people - the evils of capitalism or something. There's a lot more to those twin towers that most Americans I know don't even ant to investigate.

.

While appreciating you point of view, i disagree... I would never drink whisky with a monk, and i don't go to temple to see violent images or behaviours.. What's next. a slaughterhouse in the temple premises ?

Count on Suthep, AV and the Dems to organise that........

Much ballyhoo about nothing with the picture, in my opinion.

Ha..! That was needed.. Nothing to do with politics..And nothing to do with " Nazi control of freedom of speech " like another poster " nicely " said..

To clarify my point of view, there is nothing wrong with a turd, right ?

But you would not place it on the dining table, i guess.

[StreetCowboy]

It's the PC world in attack mode.

It's a private place, a private artist giving his private impressions.

It's a sad world when we try and censor the free will of an Artist.

I've been there ... it's different, but I wasn't offended.

Daily Mail rubbish to stir it up and sell a couple of papers.

Actually, from memory (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) but the taking of photos inside the Temple was not allowed?

How can it be private when thousands go in there each year . It is a public place ... So if an artist draws or paints nude pictures of twin babies so everyone can see you would not be offended .

Pictures of naked babies are generally considered to be acceptable - like landscapes, and the cattle in Constable's works, they are rarely deemed offensive, though some may have different opinions.

Luckily, we are not the Taliban, and the minority cannot impose their bizarre view on what is right or wrong on the rest of us. Some - particularly the Taliban, and some members of this forum, would seek to change this. I know which side I am on in this discussion,

SC

[Showbags]

Would the twin babies have planes crashing into them ??

[rgs2001uk]

It's the PC world in attack mode.

It's a private place, a private artist giving his private impressions.

It's a sad world when we try and censor the free will of an Artist.

I've been there ... it's different, but I wasn't offended.

Daily Mail rubbish to stir it up and sell a couple of papers.

Actually, from memory (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) but the taking of photos inside the Temple was not allowed?

How can it be private when thousands go in there each year . It is a public place ... So if an artist draws or paints nude pictures of twin babies so everyone can see you would not be offended .

Pictures of naked babies are generally considered to be acceptable - like landscapes, and the cattle in Constable's works, they are rarely deemed offensive, though some may have different opinions.

Luckily, we are not the Taliban, and the minority cannot impose their bizarre view on what is right or wrong on the rest of us. Some - particularly the Taliban, and some members of this forum, would seek to change this. I know which side I am on in this discussion,

SC

The utterly brilliant Dick Gaughan summed it up years ago

[Donnie Brasco]

Get over it.

Its now an historic event.

All this feigned sensitivities from people not even affected by it in reality.

Leave it to those that were directly affected to deal with it each year and move on...same same all these war story remembrance days.....past their use by date much.

Four wars and counting.

International culture of paranoia

Ditto for anti-Islamic hatred

Neuro linguistic bafflegab and shrill Bill O'Reilly replace McNeal Lherer, currency controls, propaganda baths daily.

Really showbags this was NOT a sporting event or a starlet caught gobbling charcuterie behind a forking dumpster.

The people who did this haunt every aspect of our daily lives.

You suggest we "get over it" ????

Are you living in a one room walk up in Broaque At on D'ole ????

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

By crikey I have no idea what you saided.

My daily life not haunted.....think your meds need a rehash.

It comes as no surprise that you have no idea about what I saided there, show bags.

The kind of thinking you'd like to foster and encourage here is what gets us into these messes and keeps us in these messes.

I'd walk out on a full pint if a guy at my table ever blurted out what you said.

(Might lay a chewy loogie in it though. Or somewheres close by.)

Cough, haaaach, "plooth"

No offence, eh ;-?

"Sometimes, 'fuggedabowdit' just means fuggedabowdit. . . . "

[Donnie Brasco]

Get over it.

Its now an historic event.

All this feigned sensitivities from people not even affected by it in reality.

Leave it to those that were directly affected to deal with it each year and move on...same same all these war story remembrance days.....past their use by date much.

Four wars and counting.

International culture of paranoia

Ditto for anti-Islamic hatred

Neuro linguistic bafflegab and shrill Bill O'Reilly replace McNeal Lherer, currency controls, propaganda baths daily.

Really showbags this was NOT a sporting event or a starlet caught gobbling charcuterie behind a forking dumpster.

The people who did this haunt every aspect of our daily lives.

You suggest we "get over it" ????

Are you living in a one room walk up in Broaque At on D'ole ????

Doesn't haunt every aspect of my daily life. It's not even something I think about momentarily when I get the call to prayers at 0630, nor when I get woken up by little boys in their toy cars at 0215, as the pubs are kicking out.

SC

Well, Street Cowboy it actually does.

But hey, as they say: . . . . . . . . . and, um, how's THAT working out for ya ;-?

If I got into hating Muslims and gargling more beer, and watching more footy instead of assessing the geopolitical environment and making pots of cash year over year as a result maybe I'd be happier.

I'll check back with you in a month or so.

Don't be a stranger, now ;-)

"Sometimes, 'fuggedabowdit' just means fuggedabowdit. . . . "

[StreetCowboy]

It's the PC world in attack mode.

It's a private place, a private artist giving his private impressions.

It's a sad world when we try and censor the free will of an Artist.

I've been there ... it's different, but I wasn't offended.

Daily Mail rubbish to stir it up and sell a couple of papers.

Actually, from memory (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) but the taking of photos inside the Temple was not allowed?

How can it be private when thousands go in there each year . It is a public place ... So if an artist draws or paints nude pictures of twin babies so everyone can see you would not be offended .

Pictures of naked babies are generally considered to be acceptable - like landscapes, and the cattle in Constable's works, they are rarely deemed offensive, though some may have different opinions.

Luckily, we are not the Taliban, and the minority cannot impose their bizarre view on what is right or wrong on the rest of us. Some - particularly the Taliban, and some members of this forum, would seek to change this. I know which side I am on in this discussion,

SC

The utterly brilliant Dick Gaughan summed it up years ago

I think he makes a fair case for Mutually Assured Destruction there, and the need to convince your potential enemies that they cannot win a war, or at least that it will be painful in the extreme to do so. A fair stance to take, when it comes to imperialists like the Soviet bloc, but a less effective strategy when your opponent is really waging war on his own population, and using yourself as a scapegoat, and as a foil to his wit.

Times move on, and things change.

SC

[rgs2001uk]

^^^^^

when it comes to imperialists like the Soviet bloc,

One of the beauties of living in Thailand, I can watch CCTV, Al Jazeera or Russian telly, thankfully Bubba in his double wide in Sth Georgia has no input.

Must make sure tomorrow I watch the Gerry Springer show, or even better Jeremy Kyle, great to keep in touch with how the masses back home think (brainwashed).

You have to laff, WW2 stared with Poland being invaded, it finished 6 years later with millions dead, and Poland was still invaded, they died for what?

[Thai at Heart]

America trying to export their morals onto everyone else yet again it seems.

I'm sure there are a lot of things that would be totally inappropriate and shock thai tourists in America too.

The daily mail is British...