Registration of Births of Prospective Scottish Citizens Born in Thailand

[Richard W]

I am asking this question out of curiosity; I have only a weak Scottish connection and so the issue does not affect me.

The usual advice on registering the births of British children born in Thailand at the British consulate is not to bother. The fee is £105 and is generally not considered worthwhile.

However, on reading the Scottish white paper on Scottish independence, I see that non-resident children of Scottish citizens (e.g. those Scottish by birth in Scotland) would only automatically become Scottish if the birth were registered in Scotland. Now, it is not clear to me if such a registration made before independence would be effective. Assuming it is, when someone who both expects to become Scottish at Scottish independence and wishes to be Scottish has a child born in Thailand, should that birth be registered 'in Scotland'? I presume this means via consular registration of the birth. Would this registration have to be done within 21 days of birth, as in Scotland?

The situation is not as bleak as it seems, for children and grandchildren of those who are Scottish citizens in their own right will be allowed to register as Scottish citizens. The downside is that I would expect an even larger fee for registration as a Scottish citizen, and such registration would be the acquisition of a citizenship, which could prejudice any other citizenship held. Also, I would expect registration of people over 10 years of age as Scottish to be dependent on their being of good character, as with current registrations as British.

I must say that the proposals on automatically bestowing Scottish citizenship are not as generous as I had expected. For example, it seems that someone who naturalised as British by virtue of living in Scotland but no longer lives in Scotland and did not live for 10 years in Scotland would be denied Scottish citizenship. It seems that such people are at risk of having nothing left of their British citizenship!

[durhamboy]

Wow - this raises some interesting points.

First of all - is there a legal definition of English nationality? I personally do not believe there is although I would be happy to be proved wrong. I tried to find it on the internet and I found 6 different forms of legal definitions of British nationality but none of English. Also nowhere in my British passport does it say England or English. Also therefore is there currently a legal definition of Scottish nationality?

My father was born in Scotland so if the Scots (or should I say people living in Scotland!) vote for independence (which I actually hope not and don't think they will) I am wondering if I (and thousands of others) can claim Scottish nationality and therefore possibly avoid all this FLR, ILR, LITUK etc. for my Thai wife and continue living in England under EU legislation - assuming an independent Scotland is allowed to join the EU?

Yeah I know a lot of water has to flow down The Clyde before that happens!!!!!

[bobrussell]

I suspect the rules in Scotland will largely mirror those of the UK in most ways, at least to begin with. I am enthusiastic that different parts of the UK should encourage individual character but Scotland becoming independent strikes me as being a recipe for disaster!

I am sure the anti-independence lot would jump at the idea of scare tactics involving loads of 'new' Scottish citizens arriving at Prestwick!! As they are nearly silent on the subject I doubt there will be big changes!

[Richard W]

I suspect the rules in Scotland will largely mirror those of the UK in most ways, at least to begin with.

That's what I had expected, but if one can trust the Scottish white paper, they'll be different from the start. Incredibly, it seems that the Thailand-born children of Scots will only be Scottish citizens if their birth is registered in Scotland or if they register as Scottish. On the other hand, grandchildren of good character of 'those who qualify for Scottish citizenship' will be entitled to register as Scottish, whereas under British rules, there are restrictions on when grandchildren can be registered.

Serious discussion ought to address divvying up of the British citizen body - I assume other types of British national must look to London, though an exception should be made for any living in Scotland. There ought to be a five-way division:

1) Scottish only.

2) Scottish, but with a possibly time-limited unconditional right to register for English etc. nationality.

3) Dual nationals

4) English etc., but with a possibly time-limited unconditional right to register for Scottish etc. nationality.

5) English etc. only.

Those in groups (2) and (4) should have the right to switch nationality - paedophiles in these groups should have the right to choose their nationality.

I see no reason for the Thailand-born children of a Scot with no connection to England to have English nationality, so the SNP seem to be saying that such people will initially be neither English nor Scottish unless their birth has been registered in Scotland. Perhaps we should be charitable and say the SNP don't know what they're talking about, rather than trying to create a sixth class of former British citizens - those who become, barring another nationality, stateless. Divvying up non-resident naturalised citizens may be difficult.

I am sure the anti-independence lot would jump at the idea of scare tactics involving loads of 'new' Scottish citizens arriving at Prestwick!! As they are nearly silent on the subject I doubt there will be big changes!

The scare tactics are there, in one of the 'analysis' papers.

My father was born in Scotland so if the Scots (or should I say people living in Scotland!) vote for independence (which I actually hope not and don't think they will) I am wondering if I (and thousands of others) can claim Scottish nationality and therefore possibly avoid all this FLR, ILR, LITUK etc. for my Thai wife and continue living in England under EU legislation - assuming an independent Scotland is allowed to join the EU?

I thought this approach had been closed by the McCarthy judgement. I think you'd be snookered by being a dual national, but I could very well be wrong here.

[wolf5370]

I would assume it will be along the lines of Irish independence. That is, right to travel between the countries without a passport (although may be needed for transport if on a plane - for Id etc); take employment; settle; etc - but own passports and nationality. I would think many Scots and many non-Scot Brits will have ancestry anyway so could apply for both passports in due course.

This would be the first time that England and Scotland would have an international land border, so there would have to be agreement on immigration and visa law/rules for freedom of travel to be viable. It really is a hornet's nest - even things such as the only cases of rabies in the UK (other than people returning from overseas ready infected) have been in Scotland (bats) - so pet passports for travel between the countries? Enforced vaccination? Or how about Britain's responsibilities towards the Commonwealth countries wrt visa/work permits/etc - would Scotland also be so obliged? Would it even be part of the Commonwealth? What about the Crown Jewel's, Palace of Holyroodhouse (Note: Balmoral, Craigowan Lodge, Delnadamph Lodge, Birkhall, etc are privately owned by the Royal family so not at issue - and Edingburgh Castle was gifted to Historic Scotland long ago), pensions of Scots in the UK and vice-versa (state pensions), and so many more things that have not even been mentioned yet.

[wolf5370]

I suspect the rules in Scotland will largely mirror those of the UK in most ways, at least to begin with.

That's what I had expected, but if one can trust the Scottish white paper, they'll be different from the start. Incredibly, it seems that the Thailand-born children of Scots will only be Scottish citizens if their birth is registered in Scotland or if they register as Scottish. On the other hand, grandchildren of good character of 'those who qualify for Scottish citizenship' will be entitled to register as Scottish, whereas under British rules, there are restrictions on when grandchildren can be registered.

Serious discussion ought to address divvying up of the British citizen body - I assume other types of British national must look to London, though an exception should be made for any living in Scotland. There ought to be a five-way division:

1) Scottish only.

2) Scottish, but with a possibly time-limited unconditional right to register for English etc. nationality.

3) Dual nationals

4) English etc., but with a possibly time-limited unconditional right to register for Scottish etc. nationality.

5) English etc. only.

Those in groups (2) and (4) should have the right to switch nationality - paedophiles in these groups should have the right to choose their nationality.

I see no reason for the Thailand-born children of a Scot with no connection to England to have English nationality, so the SNP seem to be saying that such people will initially be neither English nor Scottish unless their birth has been registered in Scotland. Perhaps we should be charitable and say the SNP don't know what they're talking about, rather than trying to create a sixth class of former British citizens - those who become, barring another nationality, stateless. Divvying up non-resident naturalised citizens may be difficult.

I am sure the anti-independence lot would jump at the idea of scare tactics involving loads of 'new' Scottish citizens arriving at Prestwick!! As they are nearly silent on the subject I doubt there will be big changes!

The scare tactics are there, in one of the 'analysis' papers.

My father was born in Scotland so if the Scots (or should I say people living in Scotland!) vote for independence (which I actually hope not and don't think they will) I am wondering if I (and thousands of others) can claim Scottish nationality and therefore possibly avoid all this FLR, ILR, LITUK etc. for my Thai wife and continue living in England under EU legislation - assuming an independent Scotland is allowed to join the EU?

I thought this approach had been closed by the McCarthy judgement. I think you'd be snookered by being a dual national, but I could very well be wrong here.

Assuming over 18 and of sound mind, one could always renounce British Citizenship on gleaning Scottish Citizenship (you cannot make yourself stateless under UK law, as a British Citizen).

[I Like Thai]

If the parent is Scottish then he currently holds a UK Passport and can continue to hold this and be a UK citizen. Children of this parent will also be UK citizens.

[theoldgit]

As interesting as this is, it's not really an issue yet, I think I will close this thread until after the referendum.