Meditation In Buddhist Countries.

[tc101]

We were talking about this in another discussion about Thai monks, but I think it might be better in it's own topic.

I live in the USA. I meditate regularly. If I stop meditating for a few weeks I can tell a big difference. I am less happy and relaxed. I can get in a negative frame of mind. If I start meditating again, I cheer up, feel more happy and relaxed and positive. This is the reason I meditate, more than any belief in anything supernatural.

I have traveled in Asia, but I got the best meditation instruction right here in the USA from American teachers, although most of those teachers had spent lots of time in Asia, many of them as monks.

The thing I am wondering about is why meditation is not more popular in Buddhist countries, where it has been around for thousands of years. I know that it works for me, but if I didn't know that, I would really wonder. If something works and makes people happy they keep doing it. People tell their friends and family that it works and that knowledge is passed down from generation to generation.

Camerata talked about how 100 years ago Thai Buddhism became more book learning oriented, but why did that happen? If meditation was working for monks, why did they quit. If it wasn't working, then why not, because I know it does work for me.

Could it be that meditation only works for a small percent of people?

I have no point to make. I am confused and looking for answers.

[thaibebop]

I think the culture has soaked up the meditation to the point where people are, what more in that frame of mind of being aware. Maybe it workd so well for Americans because out culture has nothing like it. I don't know if I am making sense here, so I guess relate this to a substance that one group of people use, like Tea maybe and they are used to it and thus can stand the bitter flavors and than that Tea is given to peope who have never had, well it will be a lot stronger to those people right? Now am I making sense?

[Sheryl]

Well, I meditate and did so in the US and now do so in Thailand, in fact live next to a Meditation Center. And have served as a dhamma worker in meditation courses in the US and in Thailand (and Cambodia) and in all these locations have told people how much meditation has done for me and urged them to try it. And you know what -- I find no difference at all. In each place, people give the same excuses for not meditating ("no time" "My mind is too scattered, can't concentrate"etc) and in each country they face the same problems when they do meditate.

The only difference is that in the west there are people who think meditation is something wierd whereas in Buddhist countries the value of it is not disputed in principle..but of course the latter weren't the type of people I ever urged meditation on.

I think the bottom line is that meditation is hard work (more than worth it, but hard nonetheless) and also that in the course of it one has to face a lot of things one would rather not. Human nature being what it is, people keep looking for an easier way. Some eventually decide to go ahead and bite the bullet, others just keep wasting time trying to find an "easy"way".

[camerata]

We discussed why Thai Buddhism changed in another thread here.

According to a book I read recently, the Buddha made a clear distiction between the life of a monk and that of a lay person. The monkhood was the way to enlightenment in this lifetime. Not that lay Buddhists couldn't meditate, of course, but they probably wouldn't have the time/inclination on top of making a living, raising a family and various social responsibilities.

I think that kind of distinction probably exists in all Buddhist countries. People don't mediate because they think it's something for monks and because it isn't easy or they don't have access to a teacher or social conventions don't encourage it. And they get what they want from the religion without needing to meditate. It's probably quite a modern (Western) idea to meditate because it makes you feel good and helps deal with the stress of life. Also, Western Buddhists tend to come into Buddhism right at the core teachings and take meditation as an essential part of the whole.

[jdinasia]

I know a FEW Thais that meditate daily ... and many many more that do not ....

However as for monks I know MANY that meditate daily and a few that do not ....

People's experiences will vary depending upon whom they meet and where they go/learn/etc.

If in BKK try Wat Mahathat or Wat Thammamongut

in NST try Wat ChaiNa if you are interested in meditation.

I would hazard to say that many more novices and monks "do their practice" with very little "THOUGHT" to it ... after all if you are mindful in your walking and eating and .....

[Thai-Aust]

And they get what they want from the religion without needing to meditate. It's probably quite a modern (Western) idea to meditate because it makes you feel good and helps deal with the stress of life. Also, Western Buddhists tend to come into Buddhism right at the core teachings and take meditation as an essential part of the whole.

I second that.

[Sheryl]

We discussed why Thai Buddhism changed in another thread here.

According to a book I read recently, the Buddha made a clear distiction between the life of a monk and that of a lay person. The monkhood was the way to enlightenment in this lifetime. Not that lay Buddhists couldn't meditate, of course, but they probably wouldn't have the time/inclination on top of making a living, raising a family and various social responsibilities.

I think that kind of distinction probably exists in all Buddhist countries. People don't mediate because they think it's something for monks and because it isn't easy or they don't have access to a teacher or social conventions don't encourage it. And they get what they want from the religion without needing to meditate. It's probably quite a modern (Western) idea to meditate because it makes you feel good and helps deal with the stress of life. Also, Western Buddhists tend to come into Buddhism right at the core teachings and take meditation as an essential part of the whole.

The Buddha made it clear that the path to enlightenment was possible for householders too, and during his lifetime a number of lay people achieved full enlightenment. Mother Vishaka, Anatapendika, and Kisa Gotami come readily to mind.

The idea of meditation as a way to feel better or deal with stress is actually being batted about quite a bit in Thailand (by the Ministry of Public Health among others). But I think it can be argued that promoting meditation as a stress reliever is a debasement of it in the Buddhist sense. It is also not a particulalry good sales pitch for vipassana, the core meditation practice in the Theravada school, since vipassana is a slow and often painful process which although it does relieve stress doesn't do so quickly. To stick with it people need some understanding that the goal isn't quick gratification -- otherwise they'll quit after the first attempt!

I haven't found serious meditation to be vall that widely practiced among Thai monks in general although it varies greatly by monastery. I also find that lay Thais who are really serious about Buddhism have usually do practice meditation -- by serious I mean, actually wanting to know what it is really about and actually wanting to practice it. Majority of Thais opt for the ritualized form of their religion and if asked will often give the excuse that they're going to make merit in this lifetime so that they'll be able to practice more seriously in another.

It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that more Thais don't meditate. How many ostensible Christians really practice the teachings of Christ? Everywhere, people are more apt to adapt the ritualistic and fast-comfort trappings of religion and prone to cop out of the serious practice. Whatever the religion and whatever the nationality.

That's why the realization of Dhukka is a Nobel truth -- it motivates serious practice among lazy humans who wouldn't otherwise bother.

[sabaijai]

I think many Western Buddhists assign a greater importance to meditation than Thai Buddhists do.

Aside from the fact that monks often specialise in pariyatti/scriptural study (necessary to advance in the heirarchy--and after all 'Buddhist monk' can be seen as an occupation here in Thailand) there are plenty of monks and dhamma teachers who don't subscribe to the notion that meditation is a necessary component of practice, at least not in the way that many Western Buddhists envision it.

Aj Chah, for example, was fond of criticising people who spent long hours in meditation, saying 'any chicken can roost'. At Aj Chah's monastery and its many branch monasteries, the entire monastic lifestyle was considered practice, and the average Aj Chah monastic schedule leaves little time for formal meditation.

Some monks may practice satipatthana/mindfulness, in which every activity is seen as a form of meditation, whether raking leaves, walking on almsround, eating or going to the toilet. So if you don't see monks actively involved in sitting or walking meditation, it doesn't mean they're not practicing mindfulness. (Admittedly you can bet most aren't.)

Aj Sujin and Ven PA Payutto claim that mindfulness cannot be achieved through meditation or rather if it does it is simply coincidental. From their perspective any activity, any thought, carries with it the opportunity for the arising of mindfulness. As soon as you separate meditation from any other activity, they say, you have lost the potential for sati to arise.

[chownah]

I think many Western Buddhists assign a greater importance to meditation than Thai Buddhists do.

Aside from the fact that monks often specialise in pariyatti/scriptural study (necessary to advance in the heirarchy--and after all 'Buddhist monk' can be seen as an occupation here in Thailand) there are plenty of monks and dhamma teachers who don't subscribe to the notion that meditation is a necessary component of practice, at least not in the way that many Western Buddhists envision it.

Aj Chah, for example, was fond of criticising people who spent long hours in meditation, saying 'any chicken can roost'. At Aj Chah's monastery and its many branch monasteries, the entire monastic lifestyle was considered practice, and the average Aj Chah monastic schedule leaves little time for formal meditation.

Some monks may practice satipatthana/mindfulness, in which every activity is seen as a form of meditation, whether raking leaves, walking on almsround, eating or going to the toilet. So if you don't see monks actively involved in sitting or walking meditation, it doesn't mean they're not practicing mindfulness. (Admittedly you can bet most aren't.)

Aj Sujin and Ven PA Payutto claim that mindfulness cannot be achieved through meditation or rather if it does it is simply coincidental. From their perspective any activity, any thought, carries with it the opportunity for the arising of mindfulness. As soon as you separate meditation from any other activity, they say, you have lost the potential for sati to arise.

Are you saying that Aj Chah did not recommend meditating? I wouldn't want the wrong message to be sent here.

Chownah

[meadish_sweetball]

I do not properly understand the difference between meditation and mindfulness - would somebody care to explain or point me to a good source for understanding this?

[sabaijai]

I think many Western Buddhists assign a greater importance to meditation than Thai Buddhists do.

Aside from the fact that monks often specialise in pariyatti/scriptural study (necessary to advance in the heirarchy--and after all 'Buddhist monk' can be seen as an occupation here in Thailand) there are plenty of monks and dhamma teachers who don't subscribe to the notion that meditation is a necessary component of practice, at least not in the way that many Western Buddhists envision it.

Aj Chah, for example, was fond of criticising people who spent long hours in meditation, saying 'any chicken can roost'. At Aj Chah's monastery and its many branch monasteries, the entire monastic lifestyle was considered practice, and the average Aj Chah monastic schedule leaves little time for formal meditation.

Some monks may practice satipatthana/mindfulness, in which every activity is seen as a form of meditation, whether raking leaves, walking on almsround, eating or going to the toilet. So if you don't see monks actively involved in sitting or walking meditation, it doesn't mean they're not practicing mindfulness. (Admittedly you can bet most aren't.)

Aj Sujin and Ven PA Payutto claim that mindfulness cannot be achieved through meditation or rather if it does it is simply coincidental. From their perspective any activity, any thought, carries with it the opportunity for the arising of mindfulness. As soon as you separate meditation from any other activity, they say, you have lost the potential for sati to arise.

Are you saying that Aj Chah did not recommend meditating? I wouldn't want the wrong message to be sent here.

Chownah

It's not that Aj Chah didn't recommend formal meditation (ie sitting or walking meditation). He himself meditated as a younger monk, and as abbot of Wat Nong Pa Pong led group meditations on occasion. However he didn't recommend it over other monastic activities and was wary of people who saw it as the essence of Buddhist practice.

From what I understand he often came out with the classic 'any chicken can roost' quote to de-emphasise the importance of trying to accumulate wisdom through formal meditation. He was adamant that meditation not be separated from everyday activity, saying "Do everything with a mind that lets go."

A quote from A Taste of Freedom by Ajahn Chah:

They say to make these four postures [sitting, lying, walking, standing] even, to make the practice even in all postures. At first I couldn't figure out what this meant, to make them even. Maybe it means we sleep for two hours, then stand for two hours, then walk for two hours... maybe that's it? I tried it -- couldn't do it, it was impossible! That's not what it meant to make the postures even. "Making the postures even" refers to the mind, to our awareness. That is, to make the mind give rise to wisdom, to illumine the mind. This wisdom of ours must be present in all postures; we must know, or understand, constantly. Standing, walking, sitting or lying, we know all mental states as impermanent, unsatisfactory and not-self. Making the postures even in this way can be done, it is possible. Whether like or dislike are present in the mind we don't forget our practice, we are aware.

[sabaijai]

I do not properly understand the difference between meditation and mindfulness - would somebody care to explain or point me to a good source for understanding this?

I just did a quick search for 'mindfulness' in the Buddhism branch here and the search came up with many threads, two of which I think will answer your question:

Kinds of meditation

Interview with Nina Van Gorkom

Generally when people use the term 'mindfulness' they're referring to a style of meditation known in Pali as satipatthana (foundation of mindfulness) or satipatthana vipassana (insight [based on] foundation of mindfulness). Sometimes sati alone is used to describe the arising of awareness/mindfulness which may or may not (depending on your beliefs) come as a result of meditation practice.