Jatuporn proposes referendum for ending crisis

[binjalin]

Is he reading my posts on TV - I have suggested this several times on TVF and more recently in a post earlier today

The only problem again being - will the people in the North East be free to make their own choice or will they be bought and intimidated into voting what they are told

If done fairly it would clear up the argument as to which should come first - reforms or election

I know many:

never been bought

never been intimidated

sometimes given a 'gift' as the Dems do down South but no one watches them vote

never vote 'what they are told' take the gift from either side and vote which way they want

it's all a myth - even the Dems admit that

A great suggestion : include lese majeste, a fair judiciary, end corruption and amend defamation laws and I know of no Thai's who would not support it

[doctorproc156]

Whatever Jatuporn says, suggests, proposes etc...etc... should be simply dismissed as nonsense. Bottom line. The guy is a terrorist on bail. Only mentally challenged people could actually take him seriously. In normal countries, terrorists are behind the bars. Or simply droned.

Your kind of attitude is the same as Suthep's. Look where its got us. To the brink of civil war.

May I remind you that Suthep is charged with murder of over 80 Thais, with an arrest warrant on his head.

Only mentally challenged people follow Suthep.

Might I remind you that Thaksin is CONVICTED of corruption. With at least 5 cases pending AND approximately 2,500 deaths (drug war) against him.

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And the alternative provided is an even more corrupt and elite group of people who supported 11 coups, committed 4 massacres, robbed the poor with a rice tax for 30 years and has no regard for the constitution whatsoever.

[Bluespunk]

very sensible idea to end the chaos

Suthep won't like it - he'll lose

Abhisit won't like it - he won't take part

Issara won't like it - he'll lose his adoring audience and maybe have to go back to the Wat

No evidence Dems won't take part....lets wait until they make an announcement

PT won't like it, after all they have a minority of the voter support [majority of seats but not voters]

UDD won't like it unless they are allowed to prevent any campaigning in their heartland

suthep may see it as a way out of his current situation and grasp it like a drowning man

who gives a monkey's what issara thinks [apart from the BIB that is].

[Dogmatix]

Jatuporn's paymaster has zero interest in reform. He is particularly scared of the idea of decentralisation, even though it would benefit the disadvantaged red shirt sujpporters in the North and Northeast more than anyone else and would probably disadvantage Bangkok which already has an elected governor and does very well from the central budget. Centralisation makes large scale corruption and vote buying much easier. The central budget is a much bigger and more vulnerable target than provincial budgets would be under accountable governors. In addition to appointed governers, centralisation maintains the system of kamnans and village heads appointed directly by the Interior Ministry in Bangkok who are essential to efficient vote buying and cost a great deal in salaries and expenses but do virtually nothing to deliver services to the people. Also, very importantly, the police would eventually be broken up and put mainly under provincial control under decentralisation which would be a huge loss to Thaksin's grip on power, not to mention the ease of committing corruption related and other crimes under the noses of a compliant police force.

For a party that loves to trumpet its love of democracy, it will be interesting to see what arguments Thaksin and his paid acolytes will come out with against decentralisation. No doubt PT "legal experts" plus Suraphong, Chalerm, Jatuporn et al will come out with some party line BS.

[paulmw]

There is no problem with this, but it would obviously be rejected by the Dems/PDRC as they would never get what they want from and election/referendum etc which they well know, which is why the last thing any of them want is a bloody election, the pesky things.

Would you vote in a referendum and stand a chance in losing 1000 baht back hander from Dubai?

Edited May 17, 2014 by paulmw

[givenall]

Yet another delaying, hold onto power tactic from the think tank of the boss in the desert.

Wont happen Jatuporn, go and talk to the senate like they have been asking you to do.

Let's freeze all the leaders accout on all side for 3 month or so then have an election

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[sawadee1947]

clever idea. Of course it will show that Suthep is representing only a handfull of misguided and used people in Thailand!

[fab4]

Please explain why?

I'm betting jatuporn is praying he doesn't.

As PT received a minority of the votes in the last election there is a very real chance they could lose the referendum.

Good enough for you?

Not good enough for me

Ultimately, what the early election results have shown is three things.

First, Pheu Thai will emerge as a “weakened” winner. There is no doubt that in both constituency and the PR systems, the incumbent will grasp electoral victory. What they have lost is support from the electorate, particularly some alarming results in the party strongholds in the North and Northeast.

The PDRC met with some success in mobilizing the No Vote and will take credit for the rest of the non-Pheu Thai votes in their next move to demonstrate the illegitimacy of Pheu Thai.

Third, Thai electorates have shown that despite the lower voter turnout, more than 50% of the country still wants to decide their government at the ballot box.

http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2014/02/07/politics-of-electoral-protest-in-thailand/

[srsv1238]

Jatuporn isn't the first one to propose this way out of the impasse, it certainly has its merits, however it will be carried out just like an election , which will result in vote bribing , threats , intimidation and physical harm on voters who do not tow the line with village chiefs and certain community leaders , slippery ,slimy , cunning these PTP, always a alternative motive, not everyone is fooled. .

votes are private in Thailand, right?

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[Bluespunk]

Please explain why?

I'm betting jatuporn is praying he doesn't.

As PT received a minority of the votes in the last election there is a very real chance they could lose the referendum.

Good enough for you?

Not good enough for me

Ultimately, what the early election results have shown is three things.

First, Pheu Thai will emerge as a weakened winner. There is no doubt that in both constituency and the PR systems, the incumbent will grasp electoral victory. What they have lost is support from the electorate, particularly some alarming results in the party strongholds in the North and Northeast.

The PDRC met with some success in mobilizing the No Vote and will take credit for the rest of the non-Pheu Thai votes in their next move to demonstrate the illegitimacy of Pheu Thai.

Third, Thai electorates have shown that despite the lower voter turnout, more than 50% of the country still wants to decide their government at the ballot box.

http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2014/02/07/politics-of-electoral-protest-in-thailand/

To win the referendum PT will need a majority of voters to back them. They don't have that majority. There is a good chance they lose this referendum. They might not but the possibility is clearly there.

[Melyn]

The referendum would need to make clear how the appointment would be made.

Selection by Suthep? No way.

Selection by vote? OK

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[fab4]

Yet another delaying, hold onto power tactic from the think tank of the boss in the desert.

Wont happen Jatuporn, go and talk to the senate like they have been asking you to do.

He might well do if the senate that you are referring to was the whole senate, 150 members, not just the 60-80 (nobody has come up with a definitive number) that are meeting behind closed doors, in an unofficial meeting held by a deputy speaker who has not been given royal assent as Senate Speaker.

In the meantime, he, like most politically aware people in Thailand, would do well to take Surachais declaration of non partisanship with a huge pinch of salt.

Perhaps true, however isn't also true that all 150 members should be at the meetings. Some are probably lazy, maybe some are intimidated by the threats, and some seem to be under orders to NOT participate and so boycott/don't attend.

It's an unofficial meeting held by a deputy speaker who has not been given royal assent as Senate Speaker. Why would Senators who do not agree with surachais promises of illegally appointing an interim PM give support to him by attending his unofficial meetings? (http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/726768-step-down-for-sake-of-the-country-senators-urge-govt/#entry7835007)

Edited May 17, 2014 by fab4

[smedly]

Please explain why?

As PT received a minority of the votes in the last election there is a very real chance they could lose the referendum.

Good enough for you?

Not good enough for me

Ultimately, what the early election results have shown is three things.

First, Pheu Thai will emerge as a “weakened” winner. There is no doubt that in both constituency and the PR systems, the incumbent will grasp electoral victory. What they have lost is support from the electorate, particularly some alarming results in the party strongholds in the North and Northeast.

The PDRC met with some success in mobilizing the No Vote and will take credit for the rest of the non-Pheu Thai votes in their next move to demonstrate the illegitimacy of Pheu Thai.

Third, Thai electorates have shown that despite the lower voter turnout, more than 50% of the country still wants to decide their government at the ballot box.

http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2014/02/07/politics-of-electoral-protest-in-thailand/

actually there were more no votes and spoiled votes than actual votes because the EC was allowed to release the NO and Spoiled - couple that with those that decided not to vote and also considering that nobody actually know who the actual votes were for - the breakdown from the Feb 2 poll looks something like this

Actual votes - 8 million (only the EC knows who they voted for)

No votes - spoiled votes - and people that didn't vote at all - some 35 million people

People who were blocked from voting - possibly a few thousand at the most

The above is an estimate from memory but shouldn't be too far away from the actual figures released by the EC

My conclusion at the time - that the vast majority of people in Thailand did not want elections in Feb

I believe that there is still a majority that don't want elections before reforms but as I do - want confirmation as to how these reforms will be implemented and that Suthep will not be involved in the actual process and that all peoples will be represented including the reds

and absolutely no amnesty for anyone - the guilty must be punished especially were huge sums of money are involved

Edited May 17, 2014 by smedly

[Bluespunk]

The referendum would need to make clear how the appointment would be made.

Selection by Suthep? No way.

Selection by vote? OK

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Good.

However, how will it ensure corrupt, inept, nepotistic parties prepared to use militias to intimidate their opponents and the judiciary in order to achieve their illegitimate aims are kept out of power or are at least obliged to obey the law?

In effect how will it ensure democratic rule, let's not forget elections are an aspect of democracy, not the thing itself.

[smedly]

I think it has already been established that the Seate will be involved not Suthep

[fab4]

As PT received a minority of the votes in the last election there is a very real chance they could lose the referendum.

Good enough for you?

Not good enough for me

Ultimately, what the early election results have shown is three things.

First, Pheu Thai will emerge as a “weakened” winner. There is no doubt that in both constituency and the PR systems, the incumbent will grasp electoral victory. What they have lost is support from the electorate, particularly some alarming results in the party strongholds in the North and Northeast.

The PDRC met with some success in mobilizing the No Vote and will take credit for the rest of the non-Pheu Thai votes in their next move to demonstrate the illegitimacy of Pheu Thai.

Third, Thai electorates have shown that despite the lower voter turnout, more than 50% of the country still wants to decide their government at the ballot box.

http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2014/02/07/politics-of-electoral-protest-in-thailand/

actually there were more no votes and spoiled votes than actual votes because the EC was allowed to release the NO and Spoiled - couple that with those that decided not to vote and also considering that nobody actually know who the actual votes were for - the breakdown from the Feb 2 poll looks something like this

Actual votes - 8 million (only the EC knows who they voted for)

No votes - spoiled votes - and people that didn't vote at all - some 35 million people

People who were blocked from voting - possibly a few thousand at the most

The above is an estimate from memory but shouldn't be too far away from the actual figures released by the EC

My conclusion at the time - that the vast majority of people in Thailand did not want elections in Feb

I believe that there is still a majority that don't want elections before reforms but as I do - want confirmation as to how these reforms will be implemented and that Suthep will not be involved in the actual process and that all peoples will be represented including the reds

and absolutely no amnesty for anyone - the guilty must be punished especially were huge sums of money are involved

No votes - spoiled votes - and people that didn't vote at all - some 35 million people

How can I argue with shrewd political logic like that

[casualbiker]

Whatever Jatuporn says, suggests, proposes etc...etc... should be simply dismissed as nonsense. Bottom line. The guy is a terrorist on bail. Only mentally challenged people could actually take him seriously. In normal countries, terrorists are behind the bars. Or simply droned.

Your kind of attitude is the same as Suthep's. Look where its got us. To the brink of civil war.

May I remind you that Suthep is charged with murder of over 80 Thais, with an arrest warrant on his head.

Only mentally challenged people follow Suthep.

Might I remind you that Thaksin is CONVICTED of corruption. With at least 5 cases pending AND approximately 2,500 deaths (drug war) against him.

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And the alternative provided is an even more corrupt and elite group of people who supported 11 coups, committed 4 massacres, robbed the poor with a rice tax for 30 years and has no regard for the constitution whatsoever.

So you DO or DON'T think reform is needed?

The rice tax finished in 1985 but it also helped pay for irrigation and other projects etc at least according to Wiki.

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[doctorproc156]

To win the referendum PT will need a majority of voters to back them. They don't have that majority. There is a good chance they lose this referendum. They might not but the possibility is clearly there.

People who want elections =/= PTP supporters

[casualbiker]

To win the referendum PT will need a majority of voters to back them. They don't have that majority. There is a good chance they lose this referendum. They might not but the possibility is clearly there.

People who want elections =/= PTP supporters

People that want free and fair elections = everyone BUT PTP!

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[rubl]

Actually the Yingluck government called this upon itself with their modified to be blanket amnesty bill push which suddenly even included Thaksin's last two years in/out of office and the first two years of Yingluck administration. Very undemocratic. That's why protests srated and that's why after lots of feetdragging and obfuscation there's still no progress.

Now if Suthep would present "here is the reform plan, fully detailed" he would be declared mad, a dictator, a fascist and whatever else some here can think of. There are ideas on procedure on areas to cover, ideas.which need to be discussed rather than presented as "this is it".

So, obfuscation. Keep on asking for elections as the solution to Thailands problems and be surprised it doesn't work.

what do you mean - present the reform plan fully detailed

I thought he had already indicated that the reform process would include people (none political) from all sections of Thai society - the actual reforms to be proposed to the people via referendum won't be known until the process is complete

Personally I would like to see an independent body/person involved in the formation of the reform council - but then isn't that the idea of installing a neutral PM to start the process off - I would also recommend having a respected foreigner chair this process - someone like Patton who championed the N.Ireland peace process

I wrote "if he had presented a full plan he would be decried as ... ...".

That was in response to some saying "we want to see details first"

[JRSoul]

Let us not forget that Jatuporn is on bail for very serious charges, which have not proceeded because his co-accused have/had parliamentary immunity. As parliament has been dissolved for some time now, would it be unfair to ask why this stalled case has not been resumed in a timely fashion?

Or should it wait until justice is once more denied/delayed by Thaksin appointing his stooges as PTP party list MPs?

BTW they had better pray for lower list numbers given the expected swing away from PTP.

[pianoman]

Jatuporn isn't the first one to propose this way out of the impasse, it certainly has its merits, however it will be carried out just like an election , which will result in vote bribing , threats , intimidation and physical harm on voters who do not tow the line with village chiefs and certain community leaders , slippery ,slimy , cunning these PTP, always a alternative motive, not everyone is fooled. .

Why is it thatt the Protester and their supporters beleive that only the PTP are involved in Vote Buying, Intimidation and such...

I have lived in Isaan for the past 12+ years and trust me, prior to each election Representatives for almost all parties are going around to the villages and offer money, gifts and various incentives for Votes... The vast majority of the voters just take whatever is offered from whomever is offering and then vote the way they want anyway... It is the way of life in Thailand and the Democrats are just a guilty as all the rest... The main reason that the PTP comes out ahead is that they actually do something for the people, or in some cases they try to do something for the people...

Pianoman

[casualbiker]

Jatuporn isn't the first one to propose this way out of the impasse, it certainly has its merits, however it will be carried out just like an election , which will result in vote bribing , threats , intimidation and physical harm on voters who do not tow the line with village chiefs and certain community leaders , slippery ,slimy , cunning these PTP, always a alternative motive, not everyone is fooled. .

Why is it thatt the Protester and their supporters beleive that only the PTP are involved in Vote Buying, Intimidation and such...

I have lived in Isaan for the past 12+ years and trust me, prior to each election Representatives for almost all parties are going around to the villages and offer money, gifts and various incentives for Votes... The vast majority of the voters just take whatever is offered from whomever is offering and then vote the way they want anyway... It is the way of life in Thailand and the Democrats are just a guilty as all the rest... The main reason that the PTP comes out ahead is that they actually do something for the people, or in some cases they try to do something for the people...

Pianoman

Really! The Democrats actively canvas for votes in Issan villages?

And you do not believe that village heads do at times control the villagers!

Red shirt villages spring to mind as an obvious one!

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[Melyn]

The referendum would need to make clear how the appointment would be made.

Selection by Suthep? No way.

Selection by vote? OK

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Good.

However, how will it ensure corrupt, inept, nepotistic parties prepared to use militias to intimidate their opponents and the judiciary in order to achieve their illegitimate aims are kept out of power or are at least obliged to obey the law?

In effect how will it ensure democratic rule, let's not forget elections are an aspect of democracy, not the thing itself.

Its clear that the NACC should be bigger and better funded and should have a team dedicated to government employees that can act quickly.

Ban nepotism, cronyism and conflict of interest. NACC to review every appointment at senior level civil service upwards.

MPs with any evidence against them should be banned from politics until the investigation has been completed. At the same time, their assets are frozen apart from daily expenditure.

Ban political families from having more than one member at a time.

Ban the colour groups.

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[Melyn]

Jatuporn isn't the first one to propose this way out of the impasse, it certainly has its merits, however it will be carried out just like an election , which will result in vote bribing , threats , intimidation and physical harm on voters who do not tow the line with village chiefs and certain community leaders , slippery ,slimy , cunning these PTP, always a alternative motive, not everyone is fooled. .

Why is it thatt the Protester and their supporters beleive that only the PTP are involved in Vote Buying, Intimidation and such...

I have lived in Isaan for the past 12+ years and trust me, prior to each election Representatives for almost all parties are going around to the villages and offer money, gifts and various incentives for Votes... The vast majority of the voters just take whatever is offered from whomever is offering and then vote the way they want anyway... It is the way of life in Thailand and the Democrats are just a guilty as all the rest... The main reason that the PTP comes out ahead is that they actually do something for the people, or in some cases they try to do something for the people...

Pianoman

It probably only seems that way because only those that are anti Thaksin complain about it

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[doctorproc156]

To win the referendum PT will need a majority of voters to back them. They don't have that majority. There is a good chance they lose this referendum. They might not but the possibility is clearly there.

People who want elections =/= PTP supporters

People that want free and fair elections = everyone BUT PTP!

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People that want military dictatorships and the installation of un-elected councils through coups = no one BUT Democrats, PDRC and Privy Council associated elites!

[casualbiker]

To win the referendum PT will need a majority of voters to back them. They don't have that majority. There is a good chance they lose this referendum. They might not but the possibility is clearly there.

People who want elections =/= PTP supporters

People that want free and fair elections = everyone BUT PTP!

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

People that want military dictatorships and the installation of un-elected councils through coups = no one BUT Democrats, PDRC and Privy Council associated elites!

People that want a working government and the installation of reform councils from all walks of life to finally stop coups and corruption so as to put this country near the top of ASEAN = no one BUT Democrats, PDRC and Privy Council and many Thai people who wear many colour shirts including red (but not UDD as they are bought and paid for by Mr T)

This is a fun game .. but lets not forget the serious subject matter!

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[tullynagardy]

prior to each election Representatives for almost all parties are going around to the villages and offer money, gifts and various incentives for Votes... The vast majority of the voters just take whatever is offered from whomever is offering and then vote the way they want anyway... It is the way of life in Thailand and the Democrats are just a guilty as all the rest...

My experiences exactly also. I remember in 2011 my Mrs taking great delight in taking money off PTP before going to vote BhumjaiThai in, who had also been sniffing around.

Try telling that to the same boring dozen people on here who post ad nauseum about the topic. In fact i can hear the distant titter tatter now of Scamper writing a Thesis on why Suthep has won as it rants in a park to 50 Southern peasants.

[Old Man River]

Yet another delaying, hold onto power tactic from the think tank of the boss in the desert.

Wont happen Jatuporn, go and talk to the senate like they have been asking you to do.

He might well do if the senate that you are referring to was the whole senate, 150 members, not just the 60-80 (nobody has come up with a definitive number) that are meeting behind closed doors, in an unofficial meeting held by a deputy speaker who has not been given royal assent as Senate Speaker.

In the meantime, he, like most politically aware people in Thailand, would do well to take Surachais declaration of non partisanship with a huge pinch of salt.

Perhaps true, however isn't also true that all 150 members should be at the meetings. Some are probably lazy, maybe some are intimidated by the threats, and some seem to be under orders to NOT participate and so boycott/don't attend.

It's an unofficial meeting held by a deputy speaker who has not been given royal assent as Senate Speaker. Why would Senators who do not agree with surachais promises of illegally appointing an interim PM give support to him by attending his unofficial meetings? (http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/726768-step-down-for-sake-of-the-country-senators-urge-govt/#entry7835007)

He hasn't been given Royal assent because there is no legal PM, whether acting, caretaker, or whatever to present him.

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[tullynagardy]

Really! The Democrats actively canvas for votes in Issan villages?

And you do not believe that village heads do at times control the villagers!

Red shirt villages spring to mind as an obvious one!

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Your just repeating the same pish you heard others say, its boring and simply lies.

Having seen from afar a Thai polling both and watched my Mrs go in, im 100% confident there is no way anyone can interfere with her voting choice. This is also the view of independent observers from a variety of countries but apparently we should ignore all that because some right wing sex pats here declare differently.

The idea the village head "controls" anyone really does reek of someone who hasnt spent alot of time in any of these villages. My Mrs village head blasts red shirt stuff from speakers daily yet she voted in BhumjaiThai. (and clearly many of her neighbours as they won in Buriram and not PTP) They dont even talk to the guy, letalone follow orders from him.

Absolutely everyone knows in a free election the Dems will loose time and time again. Rather than call foul play they need to address why this is.