Thai Immigration is determined to prevent abuse of visa exceptions

[Tomtomtom69]

These are the important points getting buried and belittled in all the apologists attempts to deny what's happening:

“From August 13, if we suspect any foreigner of working illegally in Thailand on a tourist visa, that person will be detained and deported, even if the foreigner has not previously completed even a single visa run.”

Note that the operative there is 'suspect' - that means no proof whatsoever is required for one to be well affected at the whim of any agent they encounter.

One person's account:

"This almost happened to me this week. I did about 4 visa runs to Myanmar, when I first came to Thailand 4 years ago as a tourist. Since then, I been working as a teacher, and being a good boy. I finally went home for a visit, and when I returned they saw those stamps from 4 years ago, and they started talking about not letting me enter at the BKK airport. So luckily I had my work permit, which did not seem too impressed with, until I showed pay stubs, my work contacts etc. I was lucky I had all those documents with me."

Note that this person's back-to-backs were 4 years earlier.

___

Here is another person's account here:

"They refused to let me back in. I was dressed well, clean shaven, very presentable and polite. My papers were in order . But regardless, the interrogation began. And it wasn't pleasant. They accused me of working illegally and/or attempting to seek employment. They wanted to see my itinerary. Why I was in thailand to begin with, where I was staying, who did i know there, how much money I had. (I had about 6000 bht with me), etc.etc., This went on for an hour. They ultimately said ...no. Partly because I opted to rent a studio apartment rather than stay at a hotel! Renting a studio apt. evidently removes one from''tourist'' status!!

Oh they wanted to see money, a lot of money! And I got the feeling that a bribe was being suggested, more than once.

I've had this same experience recently, entering after being away for 7 months. The time in between entrances is not considered by many agents. Many people have tried to say 'oh boo hoo, they questioned you, get over it.' What I experienced wasn't calmly being asked for information. It was extremely hostile and accusatory, without any chance to politely answer the questions. I've never worked in Thailand, and could have explained this easily. The agent simply didn't want to believe me.

Regarding: "Get a proper visa" - I can confirm, and several others here as well (not to mention any visa service you might like to call for yourself) that if you have 'too many' tourist visas from the past, regardless of date of distance between them, then you will be refused. At this point, that means 2 or 3 from the past, maximum. Sometimes 1 or 2 at some consulates. This is policy now over the last 2 years at all consulates surrounding Thailand, even those furthest away. Only in your home country now can you get another tourist visa, and there are hints that this is going to greatly tighten now as well, in some statements.

Unfortunately, as real as these accounts are recently, you do have to scour to find them, because so many people are angrily trying to bury them in denials, simply for the purpose of proving that their outdated knowledge of Thailand trumps the real life experience of anyone else. This is a common attitude on TV, that the old timers will belittle anyone else, and eventually revert to statements like "You deserve it!" in response.

But be smart, and don't let the old timers confuse you. It has little to do with whether you are working here or not. If any agent even "suspects" you are (or, for that matter, simply doesn't like you for whatever emotional reason that particular day), you can easily be impacted greatly by this new spirit. This is more political, than emergency measures to combat the 1% unemployment that Thailand is facing. It's only an 'emergency' to an extremist, and the fact that the PM was forced to flee office just 2 days before this started, is impossible for a thinking person to discount.

Please forgive me if I'm being mistaken, but wasn't it you that had been out of Thailand for like 7 months BUT had previously overstayed for about a month 2.5 years earlier, or was that someone else? I strongly suspect the overstay in that particular case has something to do with being stopped and questioned. Having overstayed anytime in the past is a dangerous thing right now - in any case, I would highly advise no one to overstay, ever, not even for one day under any circumstances. The risk is just too great not to mention that you are breaking the law. In other countries even a one day overstay could get you barred, possibly for life (that's what the Australian government advises Aussies in regards to overstaying a US visa or visa free stay).

Edited May 18, 2014 by Tomtomtom69

[Stanley78]

What is the definition of a resident? What is the definition of a tourist? I pay taxes in Sweden if that matters. I stay in Thailand about 7 months a year, 3 months travelling Asia and 2 months in Sweden and I rarely stay less than 2 months in one place. I have a condo in Bkk to store my stuff but I only live there in total maybe 4-5 months a year. In which countries am I considered a tourist? Where am I a resident? The world isn't as easy anymore like 99%+ of people showing up in Thailand either has a job that pays a salary which requires you to perform that job in a physical location, or you have wealth and don't need to work anymore. There are a lot of location independent jobs that you can perform anywhere. And there are a lot of people that don't have one fixed place of residency and move around a lot because they like that lifestyle.

But all that is irrelevant and mine and your definition of what a resident and a tourist is doesn't matter. What matters is what the immigration officer interrogating me next Sunday thinks it is. Sometime with little experience on the job and quite often with limited English. Looking at what ever documents I am producing. Have they had a shitty day? Do they have some quota to fill? Are they getting crap from their supervisor for not being firm enough? And this is the big problem here now. The lack of predictability. They can set what ever rules they want but they should be clear. If people show up with a tourist visa and still get denied entry or get blacklisted for 5 years because they have one to many stamps from an arbitrary number of correct stamps that is a big problem. I realize it is early days and it will hopefully become clearer what those rules are but I expect it to be major inconvenience and stress for a lot of people the next 6 months while they try to figure it out.

Are there really that many illegal Russian real estate agents & tourist operators that it is becoming a major issue? I mean do they really need to boot out the illegal English teachers? Are they stealing that many jobs from the great pool qualified Thai born English tutors? Maybe they need more English teachers, not less? Did I miss any other jobs that people actually perform on illegal visas?

As a fellow Swede I have to ask you, if you spend 7 months of the year in Thailand, wouldn't you agree that your main home is in fact in Thailand? You're saying that you only spend 2 months out of the entire year in Sweden, ie much less than the time you spend in Thailand.

Not to mention the fact that you spend more than 6 months of the year in Thailand, which is what is usually considered the norm for when you should be a resident of a country (since staying over 6 months in a country means that it's impossible for you to spend more time than that in any other country.)

Since you asked, in my opinion you live in Thailand and should arrange your residence permit/visa as such rather than keep using tourist visas.

Honestly I think that should be obvious. And also what should be obvious is that the fact that you do not work in Thailand, or perhaps do not work at all, makes no difference.

If an immigration officer looks at your passport when you are entering Thailand and sees that you spend 7 months a year there on tourist visas, and you are surprised that you get problems. Then you have no one to blame but yourself.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Stanley78

[Danielsiam]

But so, they don't give choice for a person who have money allowance / income from abroad, to live in Thailand, if they're under 50 years.

- So the foreigner are forcing to marry a thai girl / or to have a kid with them to pretend a non O-Visa, or

- So the foreigner to learn Thai language, and apply a ED-Visa, or

- So the foreigner finding a job in Thailand wish is very difficult to get B-Visa & WP, or may invest 10,000,000 baht or

- So the foreigner, will need to invest in a Thailand Elite Card,

or so, going to Philippines / Cambodia, where is too easy to stay, even for 20 years, and make extensions & give only the extensions fees.

[moe666]

Ok, get over it a Visa exempt stay is only for a short period depending on your countries agreement with Thailand happens to be, stop trying to justify living in Thailand on one of these, I am rich and no longer need to work but under 50, I speak Russian so should be able to be a tour guide as no Thais speak Russian, I am special and they should make an allowance for me.

You have been lucky to live here for many years on these but immigration has decided to enforce the law, you know what stuff happens. Stop complaining just do something that will make you legal or move on and find a more friendly place. Complaining here on TV and trying to get around this crack down is a waste of your time and key strokes. Living anywhere on 30 day border runs or even tourist visas is not good life style planning.

Ok boys and girls slag away, I waited and worked in my home country until I could retire, no I am not special just legal, not naïve I know they could screw retirees as well but will not waste my time complaining on Thaivisa I will just move just as I moved here. Yes I have friends who will be affected by this but they made their decisions without my input. Good luck to all affected.

[Stanley78]

Ok, get over it a Visa exempt stay is only for a short period depending on your countries agreement with Thailand happens to be, stop trying to justify living in Thailand on one of these, I am rich and no longer need to work but under 50, I speak Russian so should be able to be a tour guide as no Thais speak Russian, I am special and they should make an allowance for me.

You have been lucky to live here for many years on these but immigration has decided to enforce the law, you know what stuff happens. Stop complaining just do something that will make you legal or move on and find a more friendly place. Complaining here on TV and trying to get around this crack down is a waste of your time and key strokes. Living anywhere on 30 day border runs or even tourist visas is not good life style planning.

Ok boys and girls slag away, I waited and worked in my home country until I could retire, no I am not special just legal, not naïve I know they could screw retirees as well but will not waste my time complaining on Thaivisa I will just move just as I moved here. Yes I have friends who will be affected by this but they made their decisions without my input. Good luck to all affected.

Hear hear!

[moe666]

But so, they don't give choice for a person who have money allowance / income from abroad, to live in Thailand, if they're under 50 years.

- So the foreigner are forcing to marry a thai girl / or to have a kid with them to pretend a non O-Visa, or

- So the foreigner to learn Thai language, and apply a ED-Visa, or

- So the foreigner finding a job in Thailand wish is very difficult to get B-Visa & WP, or may invest 10,000,000 baht or

- So the foreigner, will need to invest in a Thailand Elite Card,

or so, going to Philippines / Cambodia, where is too easy to stay, even for 20 years, and make extensions & give only the extensions fees.

Yes live in crap countries with bad food, and corrupt governments who could change there laws as well, then what are you going to do

[Stanley78]

But so, they don't give choice for a person who have money allowance / income from abroad, to live in Thailand, if they're under 50 years.

- So the foreigner are forcing to marry a thai girl / or to have a kid with them to pretend a non O-Visa, or

- So the foreigner to learn Thai language, and apply a ED-Visa, or

- So the foreigner finding a job in Thailand wish is very difficult to get B-Visa & WP, or may invest 10,000,000 baht or

- So the foreigner, will need to invest in a Thailand Elite Card,

or so, going to Philippines / Cambodia, where is too easy to stay, even for 20 years, and make extensions & give only the extensions fees.

No they don't but we don't allow Thais to do that in my country either so why should they allow us to?

Because they are a poorer country anyone who makes more than the average Thai person should be allowed to live in Thailand?

Come on how are you guys even complaining about this.

Why should Thailand change their immigration laws to suit YOUR specific needs and wants?

No country in the world is doing that for Thai people.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Stanley78

[moe666]

What is the definition of a resident? What is the definition of a tourist? I pay taxes in Sweden if that matters. I stay in Thailand about 7 months a year, 3 months travelling Asia and 2 months in Sweden and I rarely stay less than 2 months in one place. I have a condo in Bkk to store my stuff but I only live there in total maybe 4-5 months a year. In which countries am I considered a tourist? Where am I a resident? The world isn't as easy anymore like 99%+ of people showing up in Thailand either has a job that pays a salary which requires you to perform that job in a physical location, or you have wealth and don't need to work anymore. There are a lot of location independent jobs that you can perform anywhere. And there are a lot of people that don't have one fixed place of residency and move around a lot because they like that lifestyle.

But all that is irrelevant and mine and your definition of what a resident and a tourist is doesn't matter. What matters is what the immigration officer interrogating me next Sunday thinks it is. Sometime with little experience on the job and quite often with limited English. Looking at what ever documents I am producing. Have they had a shitty day? Do they have some quota to fill? Are they getting crap from their supervisor for not being firm enough? And this is the big problem here now. The lack of predictability. They can set what ever rules they want but they should be clear. If people show up with a tourist visa and still get denied entry or get blacklisted for 5 years because they have one to many stamps from an arbitrary number of correct stamps that is a big problem. I realize it is early days and it will hopefully become clearer what those rules are but I expect it to be major inconvenience and stress for a lot of people the next 6 months while they try to figure it out.

Are there really that many illegal Russian real estate agents & tourist operators that it is becoming a major issue? I mean do they really need to boot out the illegal English teachers? Are they stealing that many jobs from the great pool qualified Thai born English tutors? Maybe they need more English teachers, not less? Did I miss any other jobs that people actually perform on illegal visas?

As a fellow Swede I have to ask you, if you spend 7 months of the year in Thailand, wouldn't you agree that your main home is in fact in Thailand? You're saying that you only spend 2 months out of the entire year in Sweden, ie much less than the time you spend in Thailand.

Not to mention the fact that you spend more than 6 months of the year in Thailand, which is what is usually considered the norm for when you should be a resident of a country (since staying over 6 months in a country means that it's impossible for you to spend more time than that in any other country.)

Since you asked, in my opinion you live in Thailand and should arrange your residence permit/visa as such rather than keep using tourist visas.

Honestly I think that should be obvious. And also what should be obvious is that the fact that you do not work in Thailand, or perhaps do not work at all, makes no difference.

If an immigration officer looks at your passport when you are entering Thailand and sees that you spend 7 months a year there on tourist visas, and you are surprised that you get problems. Then you have no one to blame but yourself.

Immigration says it is about illegal workers, but I really think it is just about people breaking the law in general staying long term on something meant to be short term. They are tired of people breaking the law and taking advantage.

[Danielsiam]

But in my country, the governement for my thai girlfriend has she have one baby with me, even without marriage, she's a family member, she have benefits, and free medical care, a residence permit, a allowance monthly, etc..

But the problem is that, they're suspecting any foreigner who stay long time that they're working illegally, but it's not the all foreigner doing that.

[paz]

No they don't but we don't allow Thais to do that in my country either so why should they allow us to?

Because they are a poorer country anyone who makes more than the average Thai person should be allowed to live in Thailand?

Come on how are you guys even complaining about this.

Why should Thailand change their immigration laws to suit YOUR specific needs and wants?

No country in the world is doing that for Thai people.

How boring is to hear this trite mantra all the time. You want to know ?

My country, as many other countries do the following, among other things:

• Recognize the opportunity and the need for everyone to search an improvement in life
• Offers a clear legal and social framework to immigrants
• Opens our free schools to child of any nationality to teach our language and what we recognize are universal values
• Gives immigrant full legal rights, the same as our citizens.
• Maintains IDCs of human and decent conditions
• Allow foreigners to hold unlimited property in form of real estate or company stock.
• Provides access to free healthcare to any legal resident, and free emergency healthcare to anyone indiscriminately
• Does not preclude foreigners from any trade or profession except few related to national security.
• Combats corruptions and does not tolerate officer's abuse.
• Does not require anyone to go for nonsense border or visa runs if residency provisions are met

Of course, not all these things work perfectly 100% of the time, but at least that's the idea, and the law.

The day that Thailand will achieve one only of the points above, that day a cop General will be in a position to speak about what other countries do for Thais.

Edited May 18, 2014 by paz

[Stanley78]

How boring is to hear this trite mantra all the time. You want to know ?

My country, as many other countries do the following:

• Recognize the opportunity and the need for everyone to search an improvement in life
• Offers a clear legal and social framework to immigrants
• Opens our free schools to child of any nationality to teach our language and what we recognize are universal values
• Gives immigrant full legal rights, the same as our citizens.
• Maintains IDCs of human and decent conditions
• Allow foreigners to hold unlimited property in form of real estate or company stock.
• Provides access to free healthcare to any legal resident, and free emergency healthcare to anyone indiscriminately
• Does not preclude foreigners from any trade or profession except few related to national security.
• Combats corruptions and does not tolerate officer's abuse.
• Does not require anyone to go for nonsense border or visa runs if residency provisions are met

Of course, not all these things work perfectly 100% all the time, but at least that's the idea, and the law.

The day that Thailand will achieve one only of the points above, that day a cop General will be in a position to speak about what other countries do for Thai's.

So based on Thailand lacking those things, you consider it acceptable for people to essentially live in Thailand by using tourist visas year after year?

Even though that is not the purpose of a tourist visa? I don't see how Thailand lacking those things you listed give people the right to abuse the visa system.

Maybe you can enlighten me.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Stanley78

[paz]

So based on Thailand lacking those things, you consider it acceptable for people to essentially live in Thailand by using tourist visas year after year?

Even though that is not the purpose of a tourist visa? I don't see how Thailand lacking those things you listed give people the right to abuse the visa system.

Maybe you can enlighten me.

I don't think or state anything but what I wrote above. It's quite easy to understand.

[Stanley78]

I don't think or state anything but what I wrote above. It's quite easy to understand.

Then I have no idea why you quoted my post in your reply rather than the OP. Since it seems you were trying to respond to "The General" and not to me.

I wrote about the fact that people can't expect Thailand to change their immigration laws to suit their needs anymore than Thais can expect other countries to do so for them.

And you replied with a long list of things which you perceive to be wrong about Thailand compared to your own country.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Stanley78

[moe666]

No they don't but we don't allow Thais to do that in my country either so why should they allow us to?

Because they are a poorer country anyone who makes more than the average Thai person should be allowed to live in Thailand?

Come on how are you guys even complaining about this.

Why should Thailand change their immigration laws to suit YOUR specific needs and wants?

No country in the world is doing that for Thai people.

How boring is to hear this trite mantra all the time. You want to know ?

My country, as many other countries do the following, among other things:

• Recognize the opportunity and the need for everyone to search an improvement in life
• Offers a clear legal and social framework to immigrants
• Opens our free schools to child of any nationality to teach our language and what we recognize are universal values
• Gives immigrant full legal rights, the same as our citizens.
• Maintains IDCs of human and decent conditions
• Allow foreigners to hold unlimited property in form of real estate or company stock.
• Provides access to free healthcare to any legal resident, and free emergency healthcare to anyone indiscriminately
• Does not preclude foreigners from any trade or profession except few related to national security.
• Combats corruptions and does not tolerate officer's abuse.
• Does not require anyone to go for nonsense border or visa runs if residency provisions are met

Of course, not all these things work perfectly 100% of the time, but at least that's the idea, and the law.

The day that Thailand will achieve one only of the points above, that day a cop General will be in a position to speak about what other countries do for Thais.

Paz how long have you been living in Thailand and none of the above were a problem until they have a crack down. Just as you respect the laws of your country you should except the laws of Thailand and respect them. Many people know the down side of living in Thailand and except it as part of our life

[Thai at Heart]

What is the definition of a resident? What is the definition of a tourist? I pay taxes in Sweden if that matters. I stay in Thailand about 7 months a year, 3 months travelling Asia and 2 months in Sweden and I rarely stay less than 2 months in one place. I have a condo in Bkk to store my stuff but I only live there in total maybe 4-5 months a year. In which countries am I considered a tourist? Where am I a resident? The world isn't as easy anymore like 99%+ of people showing up in Thailand either has a job that pays a salary which requires you to perform that job in a physical location, or you have wealth and don't need to work anymore. There are a lot of location independent jobs that you can perform anywhere. And there are a lot of people that don't have one fixed place of residency and move around a lot because they like that lifestyle.

But all that is irrelevant and mine and your definition of what a resident and a tourist is doesn't matter. What matters is what the immigration officer interrogating me next Sunday thinks it is. Sometime with little experience on the job and quite often with limited English. Looking at what ever documents I am producing. Have they had a shitty day? Do they have some quota to fill? Are they getting crap from their supervisor for not being firm enough? And this is the big problem here now. The lack of predictability. They can set what ever rules they want but they should be clear. If people show up with a tourist visa and still get denied entry or get blacklisted for 5 years because they have one to many stamps from an arbitrary number of correct stamps that is a big problem. I realize it is early days and it will hopefully become clearer what those rules are but I expect it to be major inconvenience and stress for a lot of people the next 6 months while they try to figure it out.

Are there really that many illegal Russian real estate agents & tourist operators that it is becoming a major issue? I mean do they really need to boot out the illegal English teachers? Are they stealing that many jobs from the great pool qualified Thai born English tutors? Maybe they need more English teachers, not less? Did I miss any other jobs that people actually perform on illegal visas?

As a fellow Swede I have to ask you, if you spend 7 months of the year in Thailand, wouldn't you agree that your main home is in fact in Thailand? You're saying that you only spend 2 months out of the entire year in Sweden, ie much less than the time you spend in Thailand.

Not to mention the fact that you spend more than 6 months of the year in Thailand, which is what is usually considered the norm for when you should be a resident of a country (since staying over 6 months in a country means that it's impossible for you to spend more time than that in any other country.)

Since you asked, in my opinion you live in Thailand and should arrange your residence permit/visa as such rather than keep using tourist visas.

Honestly I think that should be obvious. And also what should be obvious is that the fact that you do not work in Thailand, or perhaps do not work at all, makes no difference.

If an immigration officer looks at your passport when you are entering Thailand and sees that you spend 7 months a year there on tourist visas, and you are surprised that you get problems. Then you have no one to blame but yourself.

The one thing it is never likely to become is "home".

[mariner16]

Having read 15 pages of this thread has prompted me to go through my two passports and do some calculations. First ever entry to Thailand in September 2010, now up to 28 entries all through Suvarnabhumi Airport, 9 in UK passport all say Visa Class and a handwritten 30 with matching date stamps, the 19 in NZ passport say Visa Class APEC and date stamps for 90 days. From memory I have not had a single question directed at me from the immigration official the other side of the desk, just a smile, check of the passport, sound of stamping and a thank you as my passport is handed back, all very professional, and I really don't envisage that changing.

However it would seem at least some posters here think I am abusing the system. Like some others who have written on this thread I am offshore oil and gas, 42 day rotation, I have stayed maximum of 35 days (on the NZ passport obviously) and minimum of 0 days, (flew in cleared immigration, met the wife as she got out of a taxi and cleared off on holiday to Australia), 16 of the 28 stays in Bangkok have been 10 days or less, total days in Bangkok 319, or average of 88 per year. Stayed in hotels initially, rented an apartment for two years and brought a townhouse (in her name) 14 months ago, just changed the 12 month old car for another new one, and basically have settled down in Bangkok with every intention of staying long term. Met my wife through mutual friends in 2010 in Singapore, where I was renting an apartment (I had left the UK after the death of my wife from cancer), didn't seem to make much sense staying in Singapore and anyway I find Bangkok is like the Singapore I remember from 20 years ago. I work for a Singapore company, monthly salary is deposited in UK bank account, extras from consultancy work in Malaysia/Indonesia/Vietnam/China while I am on leave goes to K Bank account in Bangkok. Additional income from UK occupational pension which started paying out at 60 plus rental income from my house in UK goes to UK bank account, my tax accountant files my tax returns in UK and have had my P85 accepted by HMRC, Bank/HMRC etc. all write to my Bangkok address, various UK magazines are delivered there, basically I live there but do not own it (nor wish to own it).

I should add that we married two years ago in Bangkok, and my wife is employed as a Sales Manager by a large Thai insurance company. She has a 23 year old married daughter and a 13 year old son presently at a Thai boarding school, their Thai father not involved in her life or theirs. She has one sister also living in Bangkok, rest of her family is three hours drive away and she sees nothing of them, she left home at 13 came to Bangkok and washed dishes while attending night school, self taught English and is the most focussed, honest and basically nice person I have ever been involved with, she has her own apartment now rented out and yes, no doubt I have made her life easier and have been happy to do so in exchange for the easy way my life is now looked after.

So you guys tell me, am I resident in Thailand or am I a tourist, or am I a business traveller ? Yes you could say I should go and get an extension based on marriage or retirement, and I did say to her last night on the phone to start getting the paperwork together for the marriage extension, (she is a very able administrator), but the point is I have been travelling in and out for three and a half years without so much of a murmur at the premium lane, is this going to change ?, I would be very surprised if it did.

I should add that we married two years ago in Bangkok

and this is the reason for you spending time in Thailand your spending time with your wife....your legally married to a Thai national and the "marriage visa" is the appropriate visa in the eyes of immigration for you, and one supposes based on what you have written you will have absolutely no problem meeting the financial requirements for the extension, and fact your working rotation means you don't have to do 90 day reporting either...

if you take what I think the intent of what immigration is saying in this "crackdown"....they are telling you to get the proper visa for your circumstances, and in your case the proper visa is the "married" visa...

Yes, and I tend to agree with you (and Steven1 in the post before who also replied in the same vein), and I will apply for an "extension of stay based on marriage" next time in Bangkok, however this does highlight the question posed by danols elsewhere in this thread

"what is the definition of a resident, what is the definition of a tourist"

and answered by Stanley 78 in #362,

"Not to mention the fact that you spend more than 6 months of the year in Thailand, which is what is usually considered the norm for when you should be a resident of a country (since staying over 6 months in a country means that it's impossible for you to spend more time than that in any other country.)"

So, the question I have is:

is an extension of stay based on marriage a "visa" and does having one make you a resident of Thailand for income tax purposes ?

As detailed above, I have filed a P85 in UK and have been accepted as an overseas resident for income tax purposes, prior to this as a seafarer I enjoyed 100% refund on all income generated by employment, but now am in the situation of having pension and rental income in UK which if I was resident would be taxable.

I come to Thailand to visit my wife and stay in a home owned by her for on average three months a year, (six months of the year I work, and three months we travel outside Thailand together)

I have an APEC business travel card based on my NZ passport, sponsored by my employer in Singapore, which I use when I travel on business, are we saying that I should not use this to enter Thailand and get a 90 day entry stamp as I am not strictly entering for business reasons ?

I have never been employed in Thailand, although it is quite possible my Singapore employer might require me to undertake duties in Thailand on their behalf connected with offshore oil and gas vessels

Please take this as me thinking aloud, I am genuinely interested in what the definition of resident is in Thailand and at what point one becomes liable to taxation. Right now I consider myself as living in Thailand but am not totally convinced that I am a resident in the legal sense of the word.

[NanLaew]

....

As detailed above, I have filed a P85 in UK and have been accepted as an overseas resident for income tax purposes, prior to this as a seafarer I enjoyed 100% refund on all income generated by employment, but now am in the situation of having pension and rental income in UK which if I was resident would be taxable.

Since you have rental income in the UK, you already have a clear UK tax obligation regardless of where you hang your hat. You can google The Non-resident Landlord Scheme. Then have a chat with your UK tax consultant who will also clarify the status on your UK pension taxation and other income liabilities.

I have an APEC business travel card based on my NZ passport, sponsored by my employer in Singapore, which I use when I travel on business, are we saying that I should not use this to enter Thailand and get a 90 day entry stamp as I am not strictly entering for business reasons ?

I have never been employed in Thailand, although it is quite possible my Singapore employer might require me to undertake duties in Thailand on their behalf connected with offshore oil and gas vessels

Please take this as me thinking aloud, I am genuinely interested in what the definition of resident is in Thailand and at what point one becomes liable to taxation. Right now I consider myself as living in Thailand but am not totally convinced that I am a resident in the legal sense of the word.

You may want to ask your kiwi accountant about the NZ dual taxation agreements since in Thailand taxpayers are classified into resident and non-resident. Resident means a person who resides in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating 180 days or more in any tax (i.e., the calendar) year.

Your Thai tax consultant can probably clarify the following for you.

Any taxpayer, whether or not Thai tax-resident, is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand on a cash basis, regardless of where the money is actually paid.

A Thai tax-resident may also be subject to tax on income from sources overseas, if that income is brought into Thailand. In contrast, a tax non-resident will not be subject to tax on income sourced from overseas.

[JDGRUEN]

If Thai immigration wants to find people in Thailand without valid Visas and Work Permits... and if they will pay my way back to Koh Samui and Ao Nang, Krabi (from where I just returned) - I will walk with them down the streets and point out several thousands of such criminals in both of those resort areas. Let's see who will they find with no valid papers? Well - they will find lots and lots of guys from Myanmar (who often say they are from Nepal - as is that makes any difference), plus quite a number from India and even some Mid East Countries. And the Thai immigration folks will also find many Europeans, Americans and Aussies working the travel shops. Hmmmm? How did all these people get Work Permits and the supporting Visas which allow the WP's? Oh - you mean they likely do not have either - HOW SHOCKING!!! Why are these people there? Well it seems the common denominator is that to a great or lesser degree they can speak English to the tourists. What would happen if all these folks were removed or prevented from entering? Big Economic problems for the resorts that is what would happen --- and that is why it will not happen either. If the great majority of these people I just observed in Koh Samui and Ao Nang are here in Thailand legally and working legally - then someone please correct me -- I will stand corrected if believable information is presented.

I have to add to my own post... The glaring factor to hundreds - even thousands of people from Myanmar standing in front of shops in coastal and island resort areas hawking services and wares is that if somehow they had a valid Visa and WP - how is it that they could hold jobs so obviously in competition with Thai citizens that anyone would ever believe they are here legally? And it is easy to find out if they are Thai or not - even though they look like Thais in general? ... Answer - They most often cannot speak a word of Thai and don't even try. So - they are easy to spot -- just speak Thai to them when they are speaking broken English - then you ask them where they are from - Answer - Myanmar ... Wow! the Lies, Lies and more Lies of Thai Immigration... "We are going to crack down' - except where certain financial interest is concerned (caveat)...

Myanmar loas and Cambodian citizens get migrant labour permits which are fairly straight forward to get and don't require the 4 to 1 ratio for work permits.

Which I take it to mean that such workers are exempt from being in competition with Thai workers. Which would mean that the stated position of preventing foreigners from competing with Thai citizens for jobs applies to every foreigner but those from these three countries. Which to me makes the stated statutory position a load of bunk as the ordinary everyday Thai Citizen is not protected much at all - easily replaced by a neighbor at low wages. Sounds like the USA.

[JDGRUEN]

If you're a terrorist from Iran using a stolen passport, you don't need to worry about Thai immigration rules... But if you're a westerner here for 6 months of relaxation then you are now the enemy number 1 of the Thai immigration.

Got to laugh at the Thai's priorities..... going after the soft targets and letting the real criminals go free is soooooo thai

To be fair to the deceased, these Iranians were not terrorist but people that tried for a better life.

Agree that for Thailand to look for dangerous criminal an terrorists they do need need to look any further than in their deep south.

What seems odd to me ... from reading and watching news accounts in depth during the height of the coverage of the missing Malaysian airliner - and comparing the two Iranians with stolen passports on that airliner to the justification for a crackdown on people who do border runs - I can see no relationship. From everything I have seen, heard or read about the passports that were stolen from the two men - both men were in Thailand under valid Visas. Nothing about the situation had anything to do with Visa on Arrival, Tourist Visa granting or not granting or Border Runs. Two passports were stolen -- could just have easily been from someone else - with a Visa such as 'B' or 'O-A'. But TIT...

[Concerned expat]

....

As detailed above, I have filed a P85 in UK and have been accepted as an overseas resident for income tax purposes, prior to this as a seafarer I enjoyed 100% refund on all income generated by employment, but now am in the situation of having pension and rental income in UK which if I was resident would be taxable.

Since you have rental income in the UK, you already have a clear UK tax obligation regardless of where you hang your hat. You can google The Non-resident Landlord Scheme. Then have a chat with your UK tax consultant who will also clarify the status on your UK pension taxation and other income liabilities.

I have an APEC business travel card based on my NZ passport, sponsored by my employer in Singapore, which I use when I travel on business, are we saying that I should not use this to enter Thailand and get a 90 day entry stamp as I am not strictly entering for business reasons ?

I have never been employed in Thailand, although it is quite possible my Singapore employer might require me to undertake duties in Thailand on their behalf connected with offshore oil and gas vessels

Please take this as me thinking aloud, I am genuinely interested in what the definition of resident is in Thailand and at what point one becomes liable to taxation. Right now I consider myself as living in Thailand but am not totally convinced that I am a resident in the legal sense of the word.

You may want to ask your kiwi accountant about the NZ dual taxation agreements since in Thailand taxpayers are classified into resident and non-resident. Resident means a person who resides in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating 180 days or more in any tax (i.e., the calendar) year.

Your Thai tax consultant can probably clarify the following for you.

Any taxpayer, whether or not Thai tax-resident, is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand on a cash basis, regardless of where the money is actually paid.

A Thai tax-resident may also be subject to tax on income from sources overseas, if that income is brought into Thailand. In contrast, a tax non-resident will not be subject to tax on income sourced from overseas.

Hello NanLaew,

If you are more familiar with Thai classifications, could you please clarify where we can find a reliable (preferably government publication) and have a look at this info in English?

Would this tax liability for overseas income apply to expats who can get >50 retirement or similar visa? Under international practice we can carry cash to the limit of $10,000 without filing customs form. From my calculation as only a social drinker, it should be more than plenty to live in Thailand for 6 - 8 months if not wasted. Could this money be classified as foreign income brought in?

Thai taxation laws are a bit strange: with some requirement to pay small tax on supposed income from the interest on "supposedly held funds" of 1,000 000 THB / 2, 000 000 THB by a foreigner who is a director of Thai company. Annual fees for a Thai Accountant & Thai Auditor to lodge yearly reports for Thai authorities are from 5,000 THB.

This option of registering 2,000,000 THB company could be suitable for expats who are under 50 for processing "business visa" or W.P. to eliminate the need for Visa Runs. I hope many would agree with a possibility to have peace of mind to enjoy the sun & beaches of Thailand for additional tax (instead of few visa runs to much the same value).

My concerns are about "new misinterpretations by local Immigration Officers" causing hardship and panic for a genuine farangs who just want to enjoy a lifestyle without breaking local laws. Snow ball effect on real estate prices and rental vacancy rates would be inevitable if this claims of "clamping on illegal workers" are not clarified ASAP.

[NanLaew]

....

As detailed above, I have filed a P85 in UK and have been accepted as an overseas resident for income tax purposes, prior to this as a seafarer I enjoyed 100% refund on all income generated by employment, but now am in the situation of having pension and rental income in UK which if I was resident would be taxable.

Since you have rental income in the UK, you already have a clear UK tax obligation regardless of where you hang your hat. You can google The Non-resident Landlord Scheme. Then have a chat with your UK tax consultant who will also clarify the status on your UK pension taxation and other income liabilities.

I have an APEC business travel card based on my NZ passport, sponsored by my employer in Singapore, which I use when I travel on business, are we saying that I should not use this to enter Thailand and get a 90 day entry stamp as I am not strictly entering for business reasons ?

I have never been employed in Thailand, although it is quite possible my Singapore employer might require me to undertake duties in Thailand on their behalf connected with offshore oil and gas vessels

Please take this as me thinking aloud, I am genuinely interested in what the definition of resident is in Thailand and at what point one becomes liable to taxation. Right now I consider myself as living in Thailand but am not totally convinced that I am a resident in the legal sense of the word.

You may want to ask your kiwi accountant about the NZ dual taxation agreements since in Thailand taxpayers are classified into resident and non-resident. Resident means a person who resides in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating 180 days or more in any tax (i.e., the calendar) year.

Your Thai tax consultant can probably clarify the following for you.

Any taxpayer, whether or not Thai tax-resident, is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand on a cash basis, regardless of where the money is actually paid.

A Thai tax-resident may also be subject to tax on income from sources overseas, if that income is brought into Thailand. In contrast, a tax non-resident will not be subject to tax on income sourced from overseas.

Hello NanLaew,

If you are more familiar with Thai classifications, could you please clarify where we can find a reliable (preferably government publication) and have a look at this info in English?

...

Plenty of information on the internet. I am not an expert, just someone living here, there and everywhere for several years. The following from this website. Note the reference to the English-language Thai government website at the end so you can follow up.

Everybody who has an income and is living in Thailand must have their own tax ID number. This can be issued by the tax office but you need to present ID such as your passport or ID card. You will also need to show why you need the number. The Revenue Office does have English speaking staff who can help with any queries.

Those who live in Thailand for more than half the year are considered to be resident in the country for the purposes of tax. If you are resident then you are expected to pay taxes on all income that you earn worldwide. If you are not a resident and are in the country for less than 180 days each year then you are only expected to pay tax on the income that you get from within Thailand. Those who do not have a work permit are not exempt from paying taxes.

All income that is considered to be assessable comes under the heading of Personal Income Tax. This includes non-cash payments such as accommodation or the use of a car. There are several different categories of personal income including income from employment, income from a position held, income from royalties or dividends, income from rental agreements, income from construction work or income from any business.

There are a series of deductions that can be made from assessable income and this needs to be done in a specific order. A person completing a tax return will start with the assessable income amount, then take away deductions such as expenses, then take away any personal allowances. The amount that is left is the amount that can be taxed. There are different percentages of deductions depending upon the type. These are reviewed regularly so the best course of action is to check the website of the Revenue office for the latest information.

An individual taxpayer has a personal allowance of 30,000 Thai Baht. If you are married and your spouse does not work then there is a similar allowance for them. You are also able to claim an allowance of 15,000 Thai Baht for each child under the age of 25 (a maximum of 3 children) if they are studying in full time education. If your parents are over the age of 60 and their income is less than 30,000 Thai Baht you can claim 30,000 Thai Baht each.

If you are over the age of 65 then your own personal allowance becomes 190,000 Thai Baht. In addition to these there are allowances for education and life insurance as well as mortgage interest and contributions made to the social security system.

Those who earn less than 150,000 Thai Baht are exempt from income tax. Anything over this amount and less than THB 500,000 is taxed at 10%. Between this amount and 1 million THB the tax rate is 20%. Over this amount and below 4 million THB is taxed at 30%. Anything above this amount is taxed at 37%.

An individual is able to file their own tax return but all returns need to be in Thai, so non-Thai speakers should seek the help of an accountant. The Thai tax year runs from 1st January to the 31st December and the tax return should be with the tax office by the 31st March, to cover the previous tax year. Payments should be made promptly at the same time as there are penalties for late filing and payment. It may be the case that you need to submit a return every six months if your income is from your own business or for the hiring out of equipment.

Employers will withhold a certain amount of tax at source and this amount is then offset against the tax bill when you file a tax return. This reduces the possibility of getting a large bill. This can be as much as the top rate 37% but will depend on the type of work that you do and your earnings.

There are a number of double taxation agreements in place with other countries which ensure that you are not taxed twice on any income earned in another country. Thailand currently has 51 such agreements in place and a complete list can be found on the website of the revenue office.

Useful Resources

Thailand Inland Revenue Department

www.rd.go.th (website in English)

Tel: +66 2247 2748

Edited May 19, 2014 by NanLaew

[samran]

No they don't but we don't allow Thais to do that in my country either so why should they allow us to?

Because they are a poorer country anyone who makes more than the average Thai person should be allowed to live in Thailand?

Come on how are you guys even complaining about this.

Why should Thailand change their immigration laws to suit YOUR specific needs and wants?

No country in the world is doing that for Thai people.

How boring is to hear this trite mantra all the time. You want to know ?

My country, as many other countries do the following, among other things:

• Recognize the opportunity and the need for everyone to search an improvement in life
• Offers a clear legal and social framework to immigrants
• Opens our free schools to child of any nationality to teach our language and what we recognize are universal values
• Gives immigrant full legal rights, the same as our citizens.
• Maintains IDCs of human and decent conditions
• Allow foreigners to hold unlimited property in form of real estate or company stock.
• Provides access to free healthcare to any legal resident, and free emergency healthcare to anyone indiscriminately
• Does not preclude foreigners from any trade or profession except few related to national security.
• Combats corruptions and does not tolerate officer's abuse.
• Does not require anyone to go for nonsense border or visa runs if residency provisions are met

Of course, not all these things work perfectly 100% of the time, but at least that's the idea, and the law.

The day that Thailand will achieve one only of the points above, that day a cop General will be in a position to speak about what other countries do for Thais.

So then because Thailand doesn't do all of the above to your satisfaction, you should be allowed to waltz in and stay however long you damn well please?

[danols]

What is the definition of a resident? What is the definition of a tourist? I pay taxes in Sweden if that matters. I stay in Thailand about 7 months a year, 3 months travelling Asia and 2 months in Sweden and I rarely stay less than 2 months in one place. I have a condo in Bkk to store my stuff but I only live there in total maybe 4-5 months a year. In which countries am I considered a tourist? Where am I a resident? The world isn't as easy anymore like 99%+ of people showing up in Thailand either has a job that pays a salary which requires you to perform that job in a physical location, or you have wealth and don't need to work anymore. There are a lot of location independent jobs that you can perform anywhere. And there are a lot of people that don't have one fixed place of residency and move around a lot because they like that lifestyle.

But all that is irrelevant and mine and your definition of what a resident and a tourist is doesn't matter. What matters is what the immigration officer interrogating me next Sunday thinks it is. Sometime with little experience on the job and quite often with limited English. Looking at what ever documents I am producing. Have they had a shitty day? Do they have some quota to fill? Are they getting crap from their supervisor for not being firm enough? And this is the big problem here now. The lack of predictability. They can set what ever rules they want but they should be clear. If people show up with a tourist visa and still get denied entry or get blacklisted for 5 years because they have one to many stamps from an arbitrary number of correct stamps that is a big problem. I realize it is early days and it will hopefully become clearer what those rules are but I expect it to be major inconvenience and stress for a lot of people the next 6 months while they try to figure it out.

Are there really that many illegal Russian real estate agents & tourist operators that it is becoming a major issue? I mean do they really need to boot out the illegal English teachers? Are they stealing that many jobs from the great pool qualified Thai born English tutors? Maybe they need more English teachers, not less? Did I miss any other jobs that people actually perform on illegal visas?

As a fellow Swede I have to ask you, if you spend 7 months of the year in Thailand, wouldn't you agree that your main home is in fact in Thailand? You're saying that you only spend 2 months out of the entire year in Sweden, ie much less than the time you spend in Thailand.

Not to mention the fact that you spend more than 6 months of the year in Thailand, which is what is usually considered the norm for when you should be a resident of a country (since staying over 6 months in a country means that it's impossible for you to spend more time than that in any other country.)

Since you asked, in my opinion you live in Thailand and should arrange your residence permit/visa as such rather than keep using tourist visas.

Honestly I think that should be obvious. And also what should be obvious is that the fact that you do not work in Thailand, or perhaps do not work at all, makes no difference.

If an immigration officer looks at your passport when you are entering Thailand and sees that you spend 7 months a year there on tourist visas, and you are surprised that you get problems. Then you have no one to blame but yourself.

Look I agree with you and according to most definitions I would be called a resident of Thailand. The example I gave you was for last year. Next year it might just be 5.5 months and then what? Maybe I make it 5.5 months if that is what the rules say I can do. The definition is unclear and up to interpretation. Which is my problem. How many months? Calendar year? From what period to what period? Time has to be consecutive? Average over the last 3 years? Etc etc

If I apply for a visa with their embassy overseas and get it granted I expect them to honor that when I show up in their country. That is how it normally works.

And sure I have been using the tourist visas in a way that they were not intended. But so has everyone else and they have silently let people do it for years and years. If you do that for long enough you are basically telling people that it is ok.

I am fine with them changing it and to set any rules they want. But when you set rules and implement consequences they should be clear. I haven't complained about the intention of their rules in any way. But I do think they are butchering the implementation of the new rules/guidelines and that you can expect more from a country like Thailand that has such a large number of visitors and are depending on foreigners coming here spending their foreign money. "Suspect someone is working and they will be deported on arrival", even if they have legitimate paperwork issued by their embassies just isn't a very good way to implement changes in rules. But then maybe this is just a bit of TIT, deal with, which is part of the reason many people like the place in the first place since it is not as strict and rigid as our home countries. But it can be frustrating at times and you just feel like bitching and moaning a bit. And that is when you turn to TV since you know you are in good company.

Read your thread about the Elite Card, 500k for 5 years. Didn't know it existed and I will probably get that even if it is quite a bit of cash to cough up upfront. I thought it was 2M. Coincidence this new 500k option was introduced before the crack down...?

Edited May 19, 2014 by danols

[samran]

If Thai immigration wants to find people in Thailand without valid Visas and Work Permits... and if they will pay my way back to Koh Samui and Ao Nang, Krabi (from where I just returned) - I will walk with them down the streets and point out several thousands of such criminals in both of those resort areas. Let's see who will they find with no valid papers? Well - they will find lots and lots of guys from Myanmar (who often say they are from Nepal - as is that makes any difference), plus quite a number from India and even some Mid East Countries. And the Thai immigration folks will also find many Europeans, Americans and Aussies working the travel shops. Hmmmm? How did all these people get Work Permits and the supporting Visas which allow the WP's? Oh - you mean they likely do not have either - HOW SHOCKING!!! Why are these people there? Well it seems the common denominator is that to a great or lesser degree they can speak English to the tourists. What would happen if all these folks were removed or prevented from entering? Big Economic problems for the resorts that is what would happen --- and that is why it will not happen either. If the great majority of these people I just observed in Koh Samui and Ao Nang are here in Thailand legally and working legally - then someone please correct me -- I will stand corrected if believable information is presented.

I have to add to my own post... The glaring factor to hundreds - even thousands of people from Myanmar standing in front of shops in coastal and island resort areas hawking services and wares is that if somehow they had a valid Visa and WP - how is it that they could hold jobs so obviously in competition with Thai citizens that anyone would ever believe they are here legally? And it is easy to find out if they are Thai or not - even though they look like Thais in general? ... Answer - They most often cannot speak a word of Thai and don't even try. So - they are easy to spot -- just speak Thai to them when they are speaking broken English - then you ask them where they are from - Answer - Myanmar ... Wow! the Lies, Lies and more Lies of Thai Immigration... "We are going to crack down' - except where certain financial interest is concerned (caveat)...

Myanmar loas and Cambodian citizens get migrant labour permits which are fairly straight forward to get and don't require the 4 to 1 ratio for work permits.

Which I take it to mean that such workers are exempt from being in competition with Thai workers. Which would mean that the stated position of preventing foreigners from competing with Thai citizens for jobs applies to every foreigner but those from these three countries. Which to me makes the stated statutory position a load of bunk as the ordinary everyday Thai Citizen is not protected much at all - easily replaced by a neighbor at low wages. Sounds like the USA.

Having been through the process of getting migrant labour permits 3 or 4 times there are built in requirements of quotas of the number of people you can hire and the requirement to pay Thai minimum wage and give them access to Thai social services before the work permit is issued. So in the thai context doing it this way isn't doing things below market rates, it is a response to the difficulty of hiring locals when the unemployment rate is effectively zero.

At a broader level I get fed up with the mantra 'they make it so hard for us to get work permits here'. I suggest one should try getting a work permit in the west where there are proper labour market tests and then come back and talk about restrictions.

As for those who are married to Thais, I've always been supportive of those being given automatic work rights.

For me, the work permit is a red herring. Even if you'd gave automatic work rights to these people, they'd still struggle to find work given they don't really bring the skills Thailand needs, language being one of them. And to maintain the living standards they are used to they basically price themselves out of the market.

So on that basis alone id be happy giving out automatic work rights as it would shut up the moaners who complain Thailand doesn't want them to work here, and lay it open for all to see they are basically unemployable...

[larsjohnsson]

They ultimately said ...no.Partly because I opted to rent a studio apartment rather than stay at a hotel ! Renting a studio apt. evidently removes one from''tourist'' status!!

Interesting train of thought. Makes sense for the immigration, if someone is a tourist why would they need to rent an apartment if their stay here is only temporary? This must have been their thinking.

Sorry to hear it. Thailand is a great country although you may not feel that way now.

As you well know Mac, here In Thailand one can rent a Thai style apartment on short term be it, monthly, weekly or even daily, by this In talking about Thai style room. Often there will be other Thais & Foreigners alike living permanently in so e of these places.

I realise you are merely pointing out what Immigration may have been 'thinking' but it's somewhat a flawed method, after all. they know all of this. Pity to hear DNKY77's story.

And there are also thousends of Service Apartments that are made for tourists, business men people that like to stay a couple of months

[LivinLOS]

How boring is to hear this trite mantra all the time. You want to know ?

My country, as many other countries do the following:

• Recognize the opportunity and the need for everyone to search an improvement in life
• Offers a clear legal and social framework to immigrants
• Opens our free schools to child of any nationality to teach our language and what we recognize are universal values
• Gives immigrant full legal rights, the same as our citizens.
• Maintains IDCs of human and decent conditions
• Allow foreigners to hold unlimited property in form of real estate or company stock.
• Provides access to free healthcare to any legal resident, and free emergency healthcare to anyone indiscriminately
• Does not preclude foreigners from any trade or profession except few related to national security.
• Combats corruptions and does not tolerate officer's abuse.
• Does not require anyone to go for nonsense border or visa runs if residency provisions are met

Of course, not all these things work perfectly 100% all the time, but at least that's the idea, and the law.

The day that Thailand will achieve one only of the points above, that day a cop General will be in a position to speak about what other countries do for Thai's.

So based on Thailand lacking those things, you consider it acceptable for people to essentially live in Thailand by using tourist visas year after year?

Even though that is not the purpose of a tourist visa? I don't see how Thailand lacking those things you listed give people the right to abuse the visa system.

Maybe you can enlighten me.

The issue is contributors to society or cost upon society.

The westerner who comes here, for however long, and doesnt work in Thailand is purely a contributor, they must support themselves in all aspects and get nothing from the government. They are purely a contributor.

The Thai that goes to the west, will be able to take advantage of economic positives, higher paid work, free benefits and a clear and simple path to citizenship. They do contribute, if working, but very often far less than they receive.

Yes the systems should be designed for the maximum benefit of a society, to allow contributors and restrict those who are a net drain. Both should be maximized to the full extent of the visa and immigration policy.

Makes perfect sense no ??

[LivinLOS]

"what is the definition of a resident, what is the definition of a tourist"

And this is clearly the nut of the problem.

There is no problem whatsoever with Thailand making it rules. But rules must be clear, must be understood, must not have large grey areas and too much discretion placed in the hands of (often corrupt) and unprofessional people.

What exactly is the difference between a long stay tourist and a short term resident ?? It must be defined.

Is it money source ??

Is it time incountry ??

Is it tickets out ??

Is it having a home ?? What if you maintain 2 ?? Or more ??

Is it travelling around to visit sites and attractions ??

It cannot be 'you have too many stamps' based on a 30 second scan of the pages, it must have a decent and clear metric.. That is applied equally to all.. Airlines will have to manage this issue at check in. It needs to be precise not one persons 'feeling'..

[LivinLOS]

If you're a terrorist from Iran using a stolen passport, you don't need to worry about Thai immigration rules... But if you're a westerner here for 6 months of relaxation then you are now the enemy number 1 of the Thai immigration.

Got to laugh at the Thai's priorities..... going after the soft targets and letting the real criminals go free is soooooo thai

To be fair to the deceased, these Iranians were not terrorist but people that tried for a better life.

Agree that for Thailand to look for dangerous criminal an terrorists they do need need to look any further than in their deep south.

What seems odd to me ... from reading and watching news accounts in depth during the height of the coverage of the missing Malaysian airliner - and comparing the two Iranians with stolen passports on that airliner to the justification for a crackdown on people who do border runs - I can see no relationship. From everything I have seen, heard or read about the passports that were stolen from the two men - both men were in Thailand under valid Visas. Nothing about the situation had anything to do with Visa on Arrival, Tourist Visa granting or not granting or Border Runs. Two passports were stolen -- could just have easily been from someone else - with a Visa such as 'B' or 'O-A'. But TIT...

It wasnt.. That was the Phuket news jumping the gun and making assumptions.. Then not backing down in further stories.

The fact is it had zero to do with this as has been clarified by multiple senior immigration officials since then.

[AYJAYDEE]

How boring is to hear this trite mantra all the time. You want to know ?

My country, as many other countries do the following:

• Recognize the opportunity and the need for everyone to search an improvement in life
• Offers a clear legal and social framework to immigrants
• Opens our free schools to child of any nationality to teach our language and what we recognize are universal values
• Gives immigrant full legal rights, the same as our citizens.
• Maintains IDCs of human and decent conditions
• Allow foreigners to hold unlimited property in form of real estate or company stock.
• Provides access to free healthcare to any legal resident, and free emergency healthcare to anyone indiscriminately
• Does not preclude foreigners from any trade or profession except few related to national security.
• Combats corruptions and does not tolerate officer's abuse.
• Does not require anyone to go for nonsense border or visa runs if residency provisions are met

Of course, not all these things work perfectly 100% all the time, but at least that's the idea, and the law.

The day that Thailand will achieve one only of the points above, that day a cop General will be in a position to speak about what other countries do for Thai's.

So based on Thailand lacking those things, you consider it acceptable for people to essentially live in Thailand by using tourist visas year after year?

Even though that is not the purpose of a tourist visa? I don't see how Thailand lacking those things you listed give people the right to abuse the visa system.

Maybe you can enlighten me.

The issue is contributors to society or cost upon society.

The westerner who comes here, for however long, and doesnt work in Thailand is purely a contributor, they must support themselves in all aspects and get nothing from the government. They are purely a contributor.

The Thai that goes to the west, will be able to take advantage of economic positives, higher paid work, free benefits and a clear and simple path to citizenship. They do contribute, if working, but very often far less than they receive.

Yes the systems should be designed for the maximum benefit of a society, to allow contributors and restrict those who are a net drain. Both should be maximized to the full extent of the visa and immigration policy.

Makes perfect sense no ??

and if the thai is contributing less than received in your country, why is your country allowing them to immigrate?

[LivinLOS]

No they don't but we don't allow Thais to do that in my country either so why should they allow us to?

Because they are a poorer country anyone who makes more than the average Thai person should be allowed to live in Thailand?

Come on how are you guys even complaining about this.

Why should Thailand change their immigration laws to suit YOUR specific needs and wants?

No country in the world is doing that for Thai people.

How boring is to hear this trite mantra all the time. You want to know ?

My country, as many other countries do the following, among other things:

• Recognize the opportunity and the need for everyone to search an improvement in life
• Offers a clear legal and social framework to immigrants
• Opens our free schools to child of any nationality to teach our language and what we recognize are universal values
• Gives immigrant full legal rights, the same as our citizens.
• Maintains IDCs of human and decent conditions
• Allow foreigners to hold unlimited property in form of real estate or company stock.
• Provides access to free healthcare to any legal resident, and free emergency healthcare to anyone indiscriminately
• Does not preclude foreigners from any trade or profession except few related to national security.
• Combats corruptions and does not tolerate officer's abuse.
• Does not require anyone to go for nonsense border or visa runs if residency provisions are met

Of course, not all these things work perfectly 100% of the time, but at least that's the idea, and the law.

The day that Thailand will achieve one only of the points above, that day a cop General will be in a position to speak about what other countries do for Thais.

So then because Thailand doesn't do all of the above to your satisfaction, you should be allowed to waltz in and stay however long you damn well please?

No its merely a clear set of logic as to why one country has a system of preventing people coming and being a net drain, and another country, that offers none of those things, has only something to gain from direct foreign exchange and inward remittance of money.

Not too complex is it ??