Thai Immigration is determined to prevent abuse of visa exceptions

[simon43]

... the real-life stories of people being accussed of 'working illegally' (when they clearly aren't) seem to indicate that a real crackdown is in place, but for reasons which are NOT being officially acknowledged.

Indeed, that was my impression when 'grilled' on leaving to do a visa-run by air to KL from Phuket early last week (as I reported in a separate post).

Twice the immigration officer 'told me' (not asked me), that I was working illegally, but without any further statement to support his accusation.

I remained polite, but to be honest, after financing more than 20 million baht to build 4 small hotels in Phuket since 2002, (in which I have no need to illegally work), I could have responded 'in kind', (which clearly would not have helped!!

Now I am in the process of getting a B visa and WP (3-months ED visa first whilst paperwork is being processed), so that I can chat with my hotel guests without these types of accusations.

Simon

[louse1953]

Now the kicker there will be a rash of lost or stolen passorts reported. Then a rush on immagration to restamp new passports in. Problem solved.

Hey SB,you heard about computers in your neck of the woods.The govt.have them you know and cameras also.

[Timwin]

A lot of exaggeration here I think. How many people really are concerned by this "crackdown"? Probably not that much. And how many of them rent yearly a condo? Probably very few.

In my condo I think that most people live here on long term visa (extension for wife, retirement, work-permit...) and others only come by period as true tourists using tourist visa. In fact I don't know any who live here on visa-run... and I supose it must be similar in most condos.

You are wrong, about 22 million tourists yearly come to Thailand. Bangkok only for example has about 7000 Britons with retirement visas but tens of thousands seniors are there on tourist visas. Total number of yearly tourists from UK: About 900000. So they are killing to goose laying golden eggs.

A lot if not most of condo owners and renters are part time but long term tourists, spending a winter here and going back. Almost all potential retirees are long term, multiple tourist visa users first. Some of them hop around a lot in nearby countries and have a lot of stamps in their passports. I'd bet it will start affecting real estate markets soon if not already. Nothing kills business more effectively than uncertainty and idiot decisions coming from a government.

[chrisinth]

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They have got this all wrong.

They are doing it to stop illegal workers but from my experience most of the illegal workers are retired expats who are a bit short on pension funds and as such are helping their income with a small profit from a restaurant or bar.

A lot of guys work offshore and fly into Thailand spending big on their break between shifts. These people do not have the ability to get visas and they are true frequent holidaymakers.

Immigration says these people will not be affected but my gut feeling is they will.

My experience is that a lot of the offshore O & G guys spend big between shifts and support (in your experience) "most of the illegal workers are retired expats who are a bit short on pension funds and as such are helping their income with a small profit from a restaurant or bar".

Does that make them part of the conspiracy?

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silly post

the o&g boys come here for a max of 30 days, and the bar owners dont work due to no work permit, or their tilak owns the bar realy

Oh my!

Bernard, if you don't recognize sarcasm when it is in front of you then yes, you would rightly see that as a silly post. It was addressing someone's experiences compared with mine, that's all.

Just a quick point on O & G workers. Working offshore in the Gulf of Thailand is restricted to 28 days rotation, that is by the labor laws. Not every country follows this restriction and not all O & G workers are employed offshore, many work shore-side in other countries and base themselves here, on all sorts of rotation.

So your comment about them all coming to Thailand for a maximum of 30 days is way off the mark. Just thought I would clarify that while waiting for the sarcasm emoticon to stop the confusion.................. .

[ilCapitano79]

I'm getting confused here, is this crackdown thats supposed to hit in august gonna affect people using tourist visas with double and triple entries if they cant prove they are tourists, or is this crackdown only for visa exemptions?

[John1thru10]

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From August 13, if we suspect any foreigner of working illegally in Thailand on a tourist visa, that person will be detained and deported, even if the foreigner has not previously completed even a single visa run, he said.

People who are deported will be banned from re-entering Thailand for five years, not forever. After that, the foreigner may appeal to re-enter the country.

Hmmm... so say someone has a bunch of VISA exempt stamps / tourist VISAs in their passport and/or an overstay, then leaves Thailand via BKK airport. If the immigration officer decides you've been here too long, they're now going to officially detain and deport you, meaning a few days in the IDC while it goes through a judge and gets processed?

Or are they just going to blacklist you for 5 years on the stop then & there, and still let you get on your flight?

This almost happened to me this week. I did about 4 visa runs to Myanmar, when I first came to Thailand 4 years ago as a tourist. Since then, I been working as a teacher, and being a good boy. I finally went home for a visit, and when I returned they saw those stamps from 4 years ago, and they started talking about not letting me enter at the BKK airport. So luckily I had my work permit, which did not seem too impressed with, until I showed pay stubs, my work contacts etc. I was lucky I had all those documents with me.

So once you proved you were ligit,everything is ok.Its the rorters that are in strife.

With respect, people really need to stop posting here how it's 'no problem' once 'everything is ligit'. That is the way it's TRADITIONALLY been, but is NOT the way it is now. That is the point of all this - the official statements are omitting extremely important details: I was also just grilled at BKK airport after being in Europe for 7 months. I was being grilled about tourist visas from as long as 5 years ago, and the officer was speaking as if they were yesterday. This is not what the official statements or the law says. Plus, they won't issue tourist visas anymore if they see other tourist visas from the past, NO MATTER how long ago. This is my experience, and the experience of places which arrange visas. It's not just hearsay. The official statement is often what is being abused by border agents at this time. That is extremely different than what you are stating here. If you don't have direct and recent experience, please don't post such statements, because that's someone else's life your messing with. Don't respond by saying 'good riddance' and things, either. This could easily extend to all foreigners on any type of visa in the near future, and I suspect many people are going to surprised over the next months.

[stevenl]

Plus, they won't issue tourist visas anymore if they see other tourist visas from the past, NO MATTER how long ago. This is my experience, and the experience of places which arrange visas.

Please confirm the exact circumstances for this, how many visa, how long ago, when, where, etc.

[Timwin]

Indeed, that was my impression when 'grilled' on leaving to do a visa-run by air to KL from Phuket early last week (as I reported in a separate post).

Twice the immigration officer 'told me' (not asked me), that I was working illegally, but without any further statement to support his accusation.

I remained polite, but to be honest, after financing more than 20 million baht to build 4 small hotels in Phuket since 2002, (in which I have no need to illegally work), I could have responded 'in kind', (which clearly would not have helped!!

Now we got already 4-5 similar stories of immigration harrassing legimate tourists very badly. This *ssf|ckery is getting worse and worse! Just because some overly xenophohic immigration boss decided to get tough against farangs!

[ukrules]

Does this mean that teachers working illegaly will be deported

Yes, it does.

[chrisinth]

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Now what do you think happened??? They refused to let me back in.
I was dressed well, clean shaven , very presentable and polite.My papers were in order . But regardless ,the interrogation began. And it was'nt pleasant .They accused me of working illegally and/or attempting to seek employment. They wanted to see my itinerary. Why I was in thailand to begin with, where I was staying, who did i know there, how much money I had.(I had about 6000 bht with me). ,etc.etc., This #$^% went on for an hour. They ultimately said ...no.Partly because I opted to rent a studio apartment rather than stay at a hotel ! Renting a studio apt. evidently removes one from''tourist'' status!!
Oh they wanted to see money, alot of money! And I got the feeling that a bribe was being suggested, more than once.

That is unfortunately exactly what I thought this latest crackdown will lead to. Every tourist is now a suspect. Renting a condo is now suspicious behaviour. Travelling more than once into Thailand per year is suspicious. DKNY77 is a retired cop and still was subjected to 5 hour long interrogation on his SECOND entry of his first double tourist visa ever! Jaysus!

Don't think you are "safe" if you have a retirement visa or any other visa. Those visas could be targeted next. Thailand tourism will plummet when these horror stories start spreading. There are plenty of other, more friendly locations around.

Your latter point is spot on, which is why I, with my work permit and visa, responded to the threads on this subject from the beginning. Some people are really laying into the visa runners, saying they deserve what they get. Lack of sympathy aside, all of us should be able to see that the visa runners are the low hanging fruit and, to mix the metaphors, Thai immigration may have every intent of working its way up the food chain.

I suppose the next target will be those illegal/conveniently managed, bars and restaurants....those owned and run (behind the scenes) by farangs (who get shady gals to handle the legalities/protection).

Certainly these guys might want to pull out now....or get off the border/tourist wagon.

It would be an interesting poll to see how many of said farangs running bars or restaurants (fronted) are on visa exemption stamps or tourist visas. I would wager not many.

But am open to being surprised.....................

[louse1953]

Anyone living here on money not earned here will be able to show large lumps coming in fairly regularly.

Seems so simple to solve..

That may be simple, but it's completely false !

Many people - like myself - have transfer big amounts of money in Thailand a few years ago when the Baht was extremely low. Result is that I don't need now to make wires regularly to live here.

You blokes just dont get it.You always think it is about the money.That is only the case with some visas.You cant live here long term on a tourist visa,exempt or not.You are a tourist,get it.Go somewhere else and be a tourist or get a business visa in Cambo,and come back when your old and wrinkly.You will appreciate being called hansome man all the more.

[ukrules]

It seems to me that those who are making all the noise are the ones being targeted. I have my retirement visa multi entry atamp affixed I do the 90 day report like clock work I work with the system not around the system. Never had an issue. I travel often so alot of Immigration officers seem to know me by sight. A few times when check in lines were long I was taken over to the shorter Thai line and one to diplomat line. But then again I'm always polite to them. A couple of them even sat with me and chatted over coffee about How I liked Thailand. So want to stay use correct visa want to work again correct visa and work permit for work your doing Not Useing tourist VOA and border runs. If correct visa is used just need to check in is all short cab ride.

And the 'correct visa' for those under 50 who simply spend money here and dont break any laws is ??

There is the Thailand Elite program, for 500,000 Baht you can get a 5 year visa and stay for a full year on each entry.

I was surprised to hear this is still running but it is.

This 'Elite' program appears to be the solution for people aged under 50 who have plenty of money and don't work.

Edited May 17, 2014 by ukrules

[hyperdimension]

Why does having a bit of cash entitle one to stay?

Why should being of 50 years of age or more entitle one to stay?

[Concerned expat]

This could crash the condo markets very badly.

Good luck trying to find the next tenant or trying to sell your condo.

A lot of exaggeration here I think. How many people really are concerned by this "crackdown"? Probably not that much. And how many of them rent yearly a condo? Probably very few.

In my condo I think that most people live here on long term visa (extension for wife, retirement, work-permit...) and others only come by period as true tourists using tourist visa. In fact I don't know any who live here on visa-run... and I supose it must be similar in most condos.

I have seen people on visa runs who rent condos for several months in Pattaya for the length of winter in Norther Hemisphere. Not many have to or want to work at all. Number of new condo projects in Pattaya is astounding if compared with not so recent political issues in Bangkok. From my observations since 2012/2013, prices of many condos dropped down. Advise for the ones who can hold on, please hold on. Just don't be fooled into signing up for any "new project" regardless of the price on advertisement. I got couple of condos and finding tenants is not so easy now.

What is the most easy to get long term multiple entry visa for foreigners who are 50+ already? Not looking to work in Thailand, just to relax with ability to fly out for short professional contracts.

Previously I was told that owning a condo with few thousand THB in the bank would exceed minimum 800, 000 THB requirement. Still trying to understand why any country with a large part of tourist economy would start to frighten / kick out the "golden geese" who brings money. To my understanding, even if Thai taxation would ask for an income tax on worldwide income - it is hard to police.

[chrisinth]

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Gentlemen and Ladies....

I would appreciate your input into my situation.

I've been in LOS for about 2.5 years. Up until now, I've been doing In andin and outs, with 2 tourist visas thrown in a year or so ago.

I work as a substitute teacher for AYC and travel all over the country to jobs.

Several month ago, I decided to go ahead and get the afidavit from the US Embassy and work on getting the retirement visa(I'm 57). Well, after putting it off, and never really wanting to use the funds to make the trip, I now find myself in a mess with the new crackdown.

I am leaving in a few hours for a one month trip to Nakhon Si Thamarrat, and had planned to take a trip to Penang to get the tourist visa and start the retirement visa process.

Now, today, I'm reading on TV that I may end up stuck in Malaysia if I can't show proof coming back in that I'm an actual tourist. I have no money to buy any airline tickets, and no 20000 Baht to show and a whole bunch of visa exemption stamps in my passport that make it pretty obvious that I'm not an actual tourist.

Overstay is starting to look better and better.... Any suggestions?

"I work as a substitute teacher for AYC and travel all over the country to jobs"

That really says it all. If you are admitting to working here without a WP or extension of stay, you are likely one of the people the crackdown is targeting.

As a matter of passing interest, if you have no money for airline tickets and are planning on starting your retirement visa process, how are you going to manage that? If you have your 800,000 baht in an account in preparation for the retirement process, OK, but if that is all you have and you plan to continue to extend, you will need a lot more than that.

[Jay Sata]

Concerned expat,

You talk about golden geese but we all know there are thousands of not so golden geese and I'm not just talking about the British bar owners with a Thai girlfriend.

Phuket has changed beyond recognition since the arrival of those from the old USSR.

[louse1953]

Why does having a bit of cash entitle one to stay?

Why should being of 50 years of age or more entitle one to stay?

Because that is the law,work around it if you can.

[Timwin]

"I work as a substitute teacher for AYC and travel all over the country to jobs"

That really says it all. If you are admitting to working here without a WP or extension of stay, you are likely one of the people the crackdown is targeting.

Where did he said, he worked without WP?! The WP ends when the jobs ends. Period. Then you got about 7 days to get out of the country.

[Pattaya46]

You are wrong, about 22 million tourists yearly come to Thailand. Bangkok only for example has about 7000 Britons with retirement visas but tens of thousands seniors are there on tourist visas. Total number of yearly tourists from UK: About 900000. So they are killing to goose laying golden eggs.

I don't understand your answer?? This thread is about people who don't use a visa, and more precisely those who make visaruns using visa exemption. People in your answer mostly are NOT concerned.

[Jay Sata]

This is in the local Phuket newspaper this week.

PHUKET: A Russian national was denied entry into Thailand by Phuket International Airport Immigration officers on April 21 and detained until she could be deported the next morning.

Officers denied entry to Mariia Sgibneva, 26, more than a week before the May 3 crackdown on the three-visa-and-out rule aimed at stymieing international crime.

They stopped me at immigration, and ask me why I did so many visa runs. All my documents were okay. I returned from Russia in October, Ms Sgibneva explained to the Phuket Gazette on Wednesday. - See more at: http://www.phuketgazette.net/phuket-news/Russian-denied-entry-Phuket-International-Airport-visa/29391#sthash.p703K20v.dpuf

[Timwin]

I don't understand your answer?? This thread is about people who don't use a visa, and more precisely those who make visaruns using visa exemption. People in your answer mostly are NOT concerned.

You just don't f*cking get it. The long term tourists ARE the market for condoniums targeted to foreigners, especially in Pattaya and Phuket. When I was living a big condo, pretty much every weekday there was a visa run minivan visiting. If that part of the market collapses, there will be a fire sale of condos soon. Then there is the case of distressed assets going even cheaper when the owner is barred from entry!

Yeah, applaud all you can for this crackdown while you still can. The reality is about to bite back.

[John1thru10]

Plus, they won't issue tourist visas anymore if they see other tourist visas from the past, NO MATTER how long ago. This is my experience, and the experience of places which arrange visas.

Please confirm the exact circumstances for this, how many visa, how long ago, when, where, etc.

Let's put it this way, it's become a common enough experience for enough people, that now visa-run services will tell everyone this before they are even allowed to accompany the trip: if you have more than 2-3 tourist visas in your passport - regardless of how long ago, or how far apart they are - they will say no. Then reports from the people running those services became more extreme: if you've had 2. Sometimes varies a little. A newsletter from one of the services last year stated 'This is judged by a flip-through impression, regardless of the exact dates on former visas'. I experienced this myself at all consulates surrounding Thailand starting 2 years ago - and then finally at the beginning of last year, I found one place (Sawan Vega, beyond Vientienne) that allowed me one more (3rd) TR visa, with an 'extra fee' (as they put it) of an additional 1,000baht. After that, they also announced 'no more for anyone who has had more than 1...sometimes 2.'

At this point, it has become a 'first impression' basis judgement by consulates in all surrounding areas: if you have tourist visas from the past in your passport when applying, the answer will likely be no. And over 2 from the past, forget it.

I was told all last year by agents that I could 'easily' get a new tourist visa in Europe (I'm American), and Warsaw was suggested several time. After being in Europe for 7 months (returning to BKK on May 8), I did go to the consulate in Warsaw, and was told flat out that I could not use the Thai embassy/consulate unless I was a Polish resident. Period. I also had that experience in Berlin.

I want to add: I have stayed in Thailand many times over the last 5 years - but NOT continuously. Every year I am in Europe for at least 4-5 months out of each year, so between any visa or extension is always a long period of time that is technically supposed to recitify any problems. However entering BKK airport on May 8, I was grilled over 'why you come Thailand!' so aggressively, and with such anger, I was just speechless. And, I was polite and well dressed also. The officer made no attempt to look over dates of exit, and refused to listen to me when I tried to politely answer her questions, and to point out all the other entrances/exits from other countries all over the world, during the same periods. She was intentionally being hostile, and clearly just wouldn't believe me that i don't work in Thailand. That's as specific as I can be, and I'm not exaggerating this.

Edited May 17, 2014 by John1thru10

[JB300]

It seems to me that those who are making all the noise are the ones being targeted. I have my retirement visa multi entry atamp affixed I do the 90 day report like clock work I work with the system not around the system. Never had an issue. I travel often so alot of Immigration officers seem to know me by sight. A few times when check in lines were long I was taken over to the shorter Thai line and one to diplomat line. But then again I'm always polite to them. A couple of them even sat with me and chatted over coffee about How I liked Thailand. So want to stay use correct visa want to work again correct visa and work permit for work your doing Not Useing tourist VOA and border runs. If correct visa is used just need to check in is all short cab ride.

And the 'correct visa' for those under 50 who simply spend money here and dont break any laws is ??

There is the Thailand Elite program, for 500,000 Baht you can get a 5 year visa and stay for a full year on each entry.

I was surprised to hear this is still running but it is.

This 'Elite' program appears to be the solution for people aged under 50 who have plenty of money and don't work.

I hadn't realised that the Elite Card program had a "lite" version for 500,000 THB (was only aware of the 20yr, 2Million THB version) but it certainly does... http://www.thailandelite.com/newcreate/glimpse.php

When you weigh up the savings against regular visa runs & the removal of hassle/stress in doing them, it's quite a viable option for a cashed up under 50...

Mind you, the people who bought the 1st version of this (this new version was only announced a few months back) got royally sh4fted

Edited May 17, 2014 by JB300

[LivinLOS]

Most people complaining or worrying about these 'new' regulations need to understand what the purpose of a visa, visa exempt entry or voa actually is. These are all aimed at the occasional visitor to Thailand who is residing outside the country. It does not allow you you to reside here.

If you want to stay in Thailand long time this can only be accomplished by getting a permanent residency, citizenship or extension of stay.

So a border run is always using a loophole. Even if you have a multiple entry visa of some sorts, it was never meant to be used back to back. Hence also the increased difficulty obtaining back to back single entry visas from neighbouring countries. Even obtaining a multiple B visa for Thailand is getting very hard in European countries, and based on having a workpermit I was refused this the past two times and just given a single entry with the advice to get an extension and re entry permit from within Thailand. The same obviously applies to people on non O visas. If you have a good reason to reside in Thailand you will get the extension of stay, either because of family ties, retirement or employment.

Now for the offshore worker or rich under50 long time tourist; if he/she can proof residence outside Thailand and just holidaying in Thailand then there shouldn't be a problem. Obviously most can't because they do reside in Thailand, obvious by the fact they own property and a vehicle in Thailand. Something a tourist is unlikely to have.

The thing is in many case this is exactly what immigration have advised people who live here under these to do..

Saying its against the spirit of the rule, when the people overseeing the rule have actually told people to do it this way, is kind of foolish.

[chrisinth]

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I'm getting confused here, is this crackdown thats supposed to hit in august gonna affect people using tourist visas with double and triple entries if they cant prove they are tourists, or is this crackdown only for visa exemptions?

Now that's a good question. Certainly in the OP for this topic there was a lot more reference given to tourist visas than to visa exempt stamps.

Still think this needs to be published by Bkk immigration, with no disrespect to Phuket's finest................

[slipperylobster]

I'm all for the Thai Immigration enforcing whatever rules they have in place concerning their own entery/exit requirements. I just do not see the need to complain about it - it's their country for pete's sake!

I've only been to Thailand 2 times in the last 10 years (once for a week/once for a month) on 30 day exempt entries (both times in 2013). However, am a bit concerned coming back in December of this year (by air from PI where I am retired). I planned to come over and enter on a 30 day exempt, change to an O-Visa, followed by the 12 month extension based on retirement. What guarantee do I have that I will be allowed in in the first place? I've made my "one exempt entry by air" end of last year.

Only issue I have with this whole topic is that the rules in place are open to too much interpretation. Now maybe that is what they intended to happen I don't know. I think determining wether a person is a genuine tourist or not takes a little more than checking bank statements, hotel reservations, etc. By the way - what is wrong with renting a condo for your stay as a tourist? They're cheaper than many hotels for the same amount of time. I fail to see how that plays into their 'adjuticating' anyone's status as well.

Don't know. Its their rules. Stop complaining.

Duh.

What an obnoxious reply to a genuine question.

[stevenl]

Plus, they won't issue tourist visas anymore if they see other tourist visas from the past, NO MATTER how long ago. This is my experience, and the experience of places which arrange visas.

Please confirm the exact circumstances for this, how many visa, how long ago, when, where, etc.

Let's put it this way, it's become a common enough experience for enough people, that now visa-run services will tell everyone this before they are even allowed to accompany the trip: if you have more than 2-3 tourist visas in your passport - regardless of how long ago, or how far apart they are - they will say no. Then reports from the people running those services became more extreme: if you've had 2. Sometimes varies a little. A newsletter from one of the services last year stated 'This is judged by a flip-through impression, regardless of the exact dates on former visas'. I experienced this myself at all consulates surrounding Thailand starting 2 years ago - and then finally at the beginning of last year, I found one place (Sawan Vega, beyond Vientienne) that allowed me one more (3rd) TR visa, with an 'extra fee' (as they put it) of an additional 1,000baht. After that, they also announced 'no more for anyone who has had more than 1...sometimes 2.'

This directly contradicts reports and posts here.

[LivinLOS]

Anyone living here on money not earned here will be able to show large lumps coming in fairly regularly.

Seems so simple to solve..

That may be simple, but it's completely false !

Many people - like myself - have transfer big amounts of money in Thailand a few years ago when the Baht was extremely low. Result is that I don't need now to make wires regularly to live here.

You blokes just dont get it.You always think it is about the money.That is only the case with some visas.You cant live here long term on a tourist visa,exempt or not.You are a tourist,get it.Go somewhere else and be a tourist or get a business visa in Cambo,and come back when your old and wrinkly.You will appreciate being called hansome man all the more.

You realize we were discussing why not allow under 50s to legally retire here ? And why not issue a non imm class visa to them ?

So yes absolutely, as the key thing in the retirement is money to support yourself, without working here.. Thats totally relevant.

[Concerned expat]

A lot of exaggeration here I think. How many people really are concerned by this "crackdown"? Probably not that much. And how many of them rent yearly a condo? Probably very few.

In my condo I think that most people live here on long term visa (extension for wife, retirement, work-permit...) and others only come by period as true tourists using tourist visa. In fact I don't know any who live here on visa-run... and I supose it must be similar in most condos.

You are wrong, about 22 million tourists yearly come to Thailand. Bangkok only for example has about 7000 Britons with retirement visas but tens of thousands seniors are there on tourist visas. Total number of yearly tourists from UK: About 900000. So they are killing to goose laying golden eggs.

A lot if not most of condo owners and renters are part time but long term tourists, spending a winter here and going back. Almost all potential retirees are long term, multiple tourist visa users first. Some of them hop around a lot in nearby countries and have a lot of stamps in their passports. I'd bet it will start affecting real estate markets soon if not already. Nothing kills business more effectively than uncertainty and idiot decisions coming from a government.

Agree with Timwin 100%. Prices of some old condos are below 2012/2013 values after problems with demonstrations in Bangkok. Now another uncertainty popped up.

[LivinLOS]

I'm getting confused here, is this crackdown thats supposed to hit in august gonna affect people using tourist visas with double and triple entries if they cant prove they are tourists, or is this crackdown only for visa exemptions?

Initially it seemed visa on arrival only..

Now we have Phuket immigration guys saying clearly 'tourist visas' also.. And anecdotal reports of people with visas being hassled.

Until more time passes and this settles down I guess we wont really know.