Thai farmers demand remaining rice scheme payments

[winstonc]

There are two problems.

1. - The rice scheme failed, and whatever new government is elected it will have to pay the debt owed to the farmers, or sell/dispose of the stockpile at rock bottom prices and pay the farmers some - if not all the debt. It doesn't matter whether its a gov't or opposition problem the debt has to be paid. If not the farmers can go to court in a class action and wait years for any decision. They could also sell their rice directly to the market and refuse to pay duties and tax, if they are still owed money. But its unlikely they will be politically active - its not in their nature.

2. The much more insidious problem is the same one that has faced farmers in many developed countries. That is the cost of production. Why is it now 9,000 baht ? IIt is not because of inefficiency. Most farmers still have the same area of rice growing paddy they've had for generations. But previously they didn't get quite the same yield. Only in the past 10 years have Monsanto, Kubota, the Shins, the money lenders and the traders made it possibe and encouraged farmers to borrow money that they can't afford, all to buy expensive machinery and chemicals to produce more rice that is not competitive on the world market. Rice farmers in 2014 still have the same size paddies as 10 years ago, but they now have 3X the debt. Maybe its their fault for being gullible but they were clearly deceived as we now know. Its history repeating itself as Isaan farmers did by losing all the hardwood forests, 50 years ago.

Thailand maybe the world's 1 or 2 largest exporter and have the edge in jasmine rice sales, but its far from being the world's largest rice producer. Economically, it's not dependent on rice sales, but the political fallout if farmers are not able to diversify will be enormous and long running.

100% correct sir.. ..i still dont understand 9.000baht a ton..maybe they include the debt they are paying back..how many ton can you grow in 1 rai..

[smedly]

I agree that the rice farmers should be a top priority - finding the money is another thing entirely, nobody really knows the state of government finance as PTP either lied kept it hidden or both

As for the continuation of supporting the farmers - it seems to me that the cost of materials like fertilizer should be investigated and a new approach taken to help reduce production costs rather than subsidise the inflated price, it would be my guess that there are plenty making huge sums from the farmers by inflating the costs, in the end it's still the government (tax payer) that foots the bill but it will introduce some transparency as to where the money is actually going and who is behind the lucrative fertilizer business- I suspect it too is riddled with corruption

[Civil War]

A stark statement that screams that the rice farmer's association has now realised that the answer to their problems is getting rid of this Shin clan and embracing an interim government with powers to pay the Thaksin dents.

Now all is needed is to expose the amount of money stolen or unaccounted for versus the amount of money the farmers got.

[chainarong]

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Interesting. The farmers raise all kinds of a fuss about getting paid even drive their tractors to Bangkok for a one day protest get to Bangkok say nothing turn around and dive home. No more protests.

Martial Law comes along and they know they do not have to worry about the red shirts as the Army will protect them and now they are speaking up again.

Say's a lot about the red shirts lack of morals. Threatening poor farmers. Well they are now under the heal of the Army and well aware of what the Army can and will do so they are backing off on intimidation.

2 days before ML some farmer friends were approached by their "informal lenders" who were asking people if they were going to BKK to protest. They were calling in their 10 baht loans (10% per month) if they were not going.

Not suprised

[chainarong]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Interesting. The farmers raise all kinds of a fuss about getting paid even drive their tractors to Bangkok for a one day protest get to Bangkok say nothing turn around and dive home. No more protests.

Martial Law comes along and they know they do not have to worry about the red shirts as the Army will protect them and now they are speaking up again.

Say's a lot about the red shirts lack of morals. Threatening poor farmers. Well they are now under the heal of the Army and well aware of what the Army can and will do so they are backing off on intimidation.

2 days before ML some farmer friends were approached by their "informal lenders" who were asking people if they were going to BKK to protest. They were calling in their 10 baht loans (10% per month) if they were not going.

Not suprised

[rubl]

This being the guy who was stirring up the farmers on behalf of the PDRC and also the guy who turned down the governments proposed reduction in the rice pricing pledge from 15,000 baht to 12,000 baht because they could not make any profit at that price. So what were they doing before the rice subsidy upped the price?

President of the Thai Agriculturists Association Vichien Puanglamjiak earlier made an announcement that farmers would not accept the Government's decision to reduce the pledging price for rice with 15% water content to 12,000 baht per ton, as they could not make any profit with that price.

Just like the Corporate tax was lowered before the companies had to pay higher minimum wages, all prices related to farming were increased ahead of the introduction of the RPPS.

Rent of land, fertilizer, machinery, labour costs, all up.

BTW president Vichien of the TAA is a really respected person, even the former Minister of Commerce said so

"He said if farmers wanted to meet the caretaker prime minister, then they should group with the real farmer association led by Mr Vichien Puanglamchiak, president of the Association of Thai Farmers and Agriculturists."

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/705016-yanyong-says-farme-leaders-at-thai-commerce-ministry-are-fake

[love1012]

Interesting. The farmers raise all kinds of a fuss about getting paid even drive their tractors to Bangkok for a one day protest get to Bangkok say nothing turn around and dive home. No more protests.

Martial Law comes along and they know they do not have to worry about the red shirts as the Army will protect them and now they are speaking up again.

Say's a lot about the red shirts lack of morals. Threatening poor farmers. Well they are now under the heal of the Army and well aware of what the Army can and will do so they are backing off on intimidation.

It actually says more about your political bias and logic.

It also says quite a lot about your too...........or lack thereof...........

[love1012]

This being the guy who was stirring up the farmers on behalf of the PDRC and also the guy who turned down the governments proposed reduction in the rice pricing pledge from 15,000 baht to 12,000 baht because they could not make any profit at that price. So what were they doing before the rice subsidy upped the price?

President of the Thai Agriculturists Association Vichien Puanglamjiak earlier made an announcement that farmers would not accept the Government's decision to reduce the pledging price for rice with 15% water content to 12,000 baht per ton, as they could not make any profit with that price.

waiting to be paid by YOUR government............or lack thereof!!

[DLock]

You had your chance Farmers.

You believed Yingluck for the 5th time, so you pointed your tractors North and went home again.

Now you expect a new Government to honor the election promises of a morally corrupt, self serving, convicted felon...when you had the chance to do something months ago?

Sorry, but you are out of luck.

Plant cassava.

[Bluespunk]

"He also urged a new government to draft a policy to regulate the price of 2014 off season rice, leaving the decision of whether or not to continue the rice mortgage scheme, to the administration."

Dream on. The rice scheme is dead. No govt is going to reintroduce such a colossally inept piece of economic stupidity again. Market prices from now on i should imagine..

Methinks you may be underestimating PTP!

You know, PT may be crass, populist, inept, corrupt, nepotistic and anti democratic, but even they are not stupid enough to try this again. Or am I over estimating their ability to learn?

Edited May 21, 2014 by Bluespunk

[rebelplatoon]

I don t understand. . The foreign press keeps saying its a fight between the poor farmers and the Ammart. But now it seems the poor farmers would like to see the PTP government quickly replaced. . I just do not understand? Who are the Ammart, who are the elite, who are the people lining their pockets?

Recently the farmers PLEADED the Democrats to join elections. I wonder why?

[gabruce]

You had your chance Farmers.

You believed Yingluck for the 5th time, so you pointed your tractors North and went home again.

Now you expect a new Government to honor the election promises of a morally corrupt, self serving, convicted felon...when you had the chance to do something months ago?

Sorry, but you are out of luck.

Plant cassava.

The right thing to do is that the farmers get paid. The government bought the rice from them (at an inflated price) and didn't pay. The government has to pay, and unfortunately that means the next government is liable for the debt.

[mikemac]

Interesting. The farmers raise all kinds of a fuss about getting paid even drive their tractors to Bangkok for a one day protest get to Bangkok say nothing turn around and dive home. No more protests.

Martial Law comes along and they know they do not have to worry about the red shirts as the Army will protect them and now they are speaking up again.

Say's a lot about the red shirts lack of morals. Threatening poor farmers. Well they are now under the heal of the Army and well aware of what the Army can and will do so they are backing off on intimidation.

It actually says more about your political bias and logic.

I nearly sprayed coffee all over my laptop when I read this little gem.

Seriously, the comic writers these days are brilliant. Worth a lot more than they are on now.

Thanks..............................

[DLock]

You had your chance Farmers.

You believed Yingluck for the 5th time, so you pointed your tractors North and went home again.

Now you expect a new Government to honor the election promises of a morally corrupt, self serving, convicted felon...when you had the chance to do something months ago?

Sorry, but you are out of luck.

Plant cassava.

The right thing to do is that the farmers get paid. The government bought the rice from them (at an inflated price) and didn't pay. The government has to pay, and unfortunately that means the next government is liable for the debt.

Agreed.

But they had their chance to pressure the Government, believed the lies too many times, and went home to cry in their lao kao and shoot themselves.

Now, there looks like a new Government is on the horizon, they come crawling demanding payment.

I hope they get paid...but I'm not in favor of them being a priority right now.

[Sparkles]

Its just an endless cycle of elections,violence, coups/martial law and more corruption,nepotism and cronyism.The mind set of most Thais is not to ever admit you made a mistake

and until better education and some real leadership comes along it will continue. Thailand is falling behind very other Asian country but their mind set is they are still the best.

At least the Army stepping in has prevented more deaths but it won't solve the long term problem,just a band aid solution

[seajae]

isnt this thew same ptp stooge that told the farmers to turn around and go home because the ptp were going to pay them. Seems maybe he wasnt paid by the big boss either and now wants to cut a deal, will be interesting to see what happens.

[Baerboxer]

This being the guy who was stirring up the farmers on behalf of the PDRC and also the guy who turned down the governments proposed reduction in the rice pricing pledge from 15,000 baht to 12,000 baht because they could not make any profit at that price. So what were they doing before the rice subsidy upped the price?

President of the Thai Agriculturists Association Vichien Puanglamjiak earlier made an announcement that farmers would not accept the Government's decision to reduce the pledging price for rice with 15% water content to 12,000 baht per ton, as they could not make any profit with that price.

Defending the PTP rice scheme. A rarity among the ultra reds on TV. Usually they avoid such threads.

So you think it's ok for the Shins to pay themselves handsomely whilst making vow after vow, promise after promise and telling lie after lie, to poor farmers?

I know many farmers who are still waiting for payments due in the last qtr of 2013. And they were told, protest against PTP and you'll get nothing.

Wasn't the "farmers' leader" who had the private audience with the former Yingluck regime an ex PTP MP. You remember the guy who told them all to go home as Yingluck had vowed they would be paid next week. Wonder where he is now?

[belg]

farmers should not produce rice anymore if it is not economically viable

thailand can import cheap rice from neighbours and feed the poor thai farmers

[mikemac]

This being the guy who was stirring up the farmers on behalf of the PDRC and also the guy who turned down the governments proposed reduction in the rice pricing pledge from 15,000 baht to 12,000 baht because they could not make any profit at that price. So what were they doing before the rice subsidy upped the price?

President of the Thai Agriculturists Association Vichien Puanglamjiak earlier made an announcement that farmers would not accept the Government's decision to reduce the pledging price for rice with 15% water content to 12,000 baht per ton, as they could not make any profit with that price.

Defending the PTP rice scheme. A rarity among the ultra reds on TV. Usually they avoid such threads.

So you think it's ok for the Shins to pay themselves handsomely whilst making vow after vow, promise after promise and telling lie after lie, to poor farmers?

I know many farmers who are still waiting for payments due in the last qtr of 2013. And they were told, protest against PTP and you'll get nothing.

Wasn't the "farmers' leader" who had the private audience with the former Yingluck regime an ex PTP MP. You remember the guy who told them all to go home as Yingluck had vowed they would be paid next week. Wonder where he is now?

Well put BB, but remember this guy is not just an "ultra red", he is the grand poo-bah of trolls.

[paulmw]

After the Shin lead govt's have pumped 1.5 trillion into the rice industry and the farmers still cannot produce rice independently of the government for a profit while 100 km away in the same soil Vietnam can produce rice at 5000 Baht a rai and produce 3 times the yield that Thai's do on that 1 rai then that is a waste of 1.5 trillion baht and there is no excuse for Thailand farmers to produce rice above the cost of market value.

Talk about dangling a carrot ballot card in front of a donkey voter. Until the farmers can get out of this poverty cycle where they are reliant on the PTP to survive then the PTP could abuse power, ignore 14 principles of democracy, rubbish the public, threaten the opposition voters, intimidate the courts, treat all voters with contempt, assassinate opponents of the regime and bomb and shoot opposition supporters and they will still be voted into power. After seeing the farmers and the desperation and them having to live hand to mouth I would vote PTP if they offered 43% above market value even if they did the above atrocities. I would have no choice.

Don't regulate the price. Empower the farmers with education and knowledge like they did in Vietnam. 1.5 trillion baht would go along why to funding the infrastructure scheme.

That is why reform is needed.

comparing Vietnam salaries with Thailand salaries is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read.

I happen to know a big rice producer in Vietnam personally and I know what he pays his workers. Officially, Vietnam has a GDP of $4000 while Thailand is at $9900. But actual Vietnam workers make much much less than Thai workers. A Thai person could not survive in Thailand with a Vietnam salary, so it's also impossible to sell Thai rice at the same price of Vietnam rice because the production costs are much higher.

Get it?

That’s life, called globalization the west lost most of their production line work to Asia that’s why Thailand can produce electronics cheap than the west.

So if the Vietnamese can produce rice cheaper so be it.

Get it.

[The Deerhunter]

Look, somebody has to pay to keep the elite in their Lambo's and Ferraris so I'm afraid that the farmers will just have to tighten their belts after years of luxury.

You must mean those rich ammart ministers and gov workers that lost??? billions of baht in this scheme

Sent from my GT-S5310 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

You must mean rich "B"mmart ministers. The "A" list "A"mmart have not been the govt for several years. The centre of wealth defined by the" treasury seat occupation" has been in the north for a number of years. You do not have to look very hard at the out-going government ministers to find scads of them who would be considereed to have become "unreasonably rich" since the Thaksin dynasty took hold. And yes, all you PTP apologists, these were the self promoted good guys who were going to work for the good of Thailand unlike the "thieving Dems" they deposed. All good socialists like the Shins, eh? I suppose the trickle-down effect must work to a degrees if the PTP farmer electoral base do not mind the smell.

[The Deerhunter]

Interesting. The farmers raise all kinds of a fuss about getting paid even drive their tractors to Bangkok for a one day protest get to Bangkok say nothing turn around and dive home. No more protests.

Martial Law comes along and they know they do not have to worry about the red shirts as the Army will protect them and now they are speaking up again.

Say's a lot about the red shirts lack of morals. Threatening poor farmers. Well they are now under the heal of the Army and well aware of what the Army can and will do so they are backing off on intimidation.

It actually says more about your political bias and logic.

And yours, but everyone knows your bias.

Nearly 3,000 posts under the fab4 label. Amazing!! I am surprised you have not vanished and been reborn under another name as so many PTP apologists seem to have found it necessary or desireable, recently, (for whatever reason.)

[The Deerhunter]

After the Shin lead govt's have pumped 1.5 trillion into the rice industry and the farmers still cannot produce rice independently of the government for a profit while 100 km away in the same soil Vietnam can produce rice at 5000 Baht a rai and produce 3 times the yield that Thai's do on that 1 rai then that is a waste of 1.5 trillion baht and there is no excuse for Thailand farmers to produce rice above the cost of market value.

Talk about dangling a carrot ballot card in front of a donkey voter. Until the farmers can get out of this poverty cycle where they are reliant on the PTP to survive then the PTP could abuse power, ignore 14 principles of democracy, rubbish the public, threaten the opposition voters, intimidate the courts, treat all voters with contempt, assassinate opponents of the regime and bomb and shoot opposition supporters and they will still be voted into power. After seeing the farmers and the desperation and them having to live hand to mouth I would vote PTP if they offered 43% above market value even if they did the above atrocities. I would have no choice.

Don't regulate the price. Empower the farmers with education and knowledge like they did in Vietnam. 1.5 trillion baht would go along why to funding the infrastructure scheme.

That is why reform is needed.

It makes sense to pay above the market price for organic production or some environment friendly productions. Or helping farmer who try something new, that may not work as good as they thought.

Or give credits for machines that increases productivity. (and don't give credits for new mobile phones like Thaksin did).

But paying extra for low to medium class rice is wrong.

Hey, don't knock the mobile phone credits. They are brilliant if you own the network they use and are paying the credits with OPM. (Other Peoples Money).

[The Deerhunter]

After the Shin lead govt's have pumped 1.5 trillion into the rice industry and the farmers still cannot produce rice independently of the government for a profit while 100 km away in the same soil Vietnam can produce rice at 5000 Baht a rai and produce 3 times the yield that Thai's do on that 1 rai then that is a waste of 1.5 trillion baht and there is no excuse for Thailand farmers to produce rice above the cost of market value.

Talk about dangling a carrot ballot card in front of a donkey voter. Until the farmers can get out of this poverty cycle where they are reliant on the PTP to survive then the PTP could abuse power, ignore 14 principles of democracy, rubbish the public, threaten the opposition voters, intimidate the courts, treat all voters with contempt, assassinate opponents of the regime and bomb and shoot opposition supporters and they will still be voted into power. After seeing the farmers and the desperation and them having to live hand to mouth I would vote PTP if they offered 43% above market value even if they did the above atrocities. I would have no choice.

Don't regulate the price. Empower the farmers with education and knowledge like they did in Vietnam. 1.5 trillion baht would go along why to funding the infrastructure scheme.

That is why reform is needed.

Comparing Vietnam salaries with Thailand salaries is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read.

I happen to know a big rice producer in Vietnam personally and I know what he pays his workers. Officially, Vietnam has a GDP of $4000 while Thailand is at $9900. But actual Vietnam workers make much much less than Thai workers. A Thai person could not survive in Thailand with a Vietnam salary, so it's also impossible to sell Thai rice at the same price of Vietnam rice because the production costs are much higher.

Get it?

Yes we get it. And we also get that paying a guaranteed higher price only encourages the tenant farmers' landlords, the contractors & suppliers to raise their prices and the poor farmers are no better off. Considerting that PTP ministers own large chunks of the trucking & storage market, not to mention are landlords or suppliers, It is no wonder the scheme is so popular. OPM

[djjamie]

Comparing Vietnam salaries with Thailand salaries is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read.

I happen to know a big rice producer in Vietnam personally and I know what he pays his workers. Officially, Vietnam has a GDP of $4000 while Thailand is at $9900. But actual Vietnam workers make much much less than Thai workers. A Thai person could not survive in Thailand with a Vietnam salary, so it's also impossible to sell Thai rice at the same price of Vietnam rice because the production costs are much higher.

Get it?

I revel in these unsubstantiated claims.

It seems everyone on this forum knows someone very important or someone that directly relates to the argument at hand to defend there point of view.

Most ridiculous thing you ever heard? Of course it is it because it does not suit your agenda.

I don't care about GDP. I don't care about salary. That is even more reason to invest in education and sustainability then. Thank you Shannon for inadvertently backing up my argument.

Vietnam govt invested in sustainable education programs that allowed the farmers to produce rice 3 times more efficiently than Thailand. There yield is 3 times higher per rai. 3 times Shannon.

Time to bring some sustainability into rice farming to allow the voters to NOT be held hostage at the ballot box and more importantly so they are not dependent on anyone. PTP would hate it. Loan sharks would hate it. I cannot see why you don't agree that education to improve the farmers output, thus profits is a bad thing. Maybe if Jatuporn mentioned it you would be all over it like "white on rice". No pun intended. What is better Shannon. 280kg per rai or 780kg per rai…Do rice farmers not deserve education to allow them to produce that? Would you rather keep the carrot dangled to give a perceived look that you are actually helping the farmers instead of really actually helping the farmers.

Reform is critical for farmers prosperity.

Well Shannon?

Do farmers deserve to be self sufficient and educated in efficient farming techniques to allow them to thrive?

[marcusd]

There are two problems.

1. - The rice scheme failed, and whatever new government is elected it will have to pay the debt owed to the farmers, or sell/dispose of the stockpile at rock bottom prices and pay the farmers some - if not all the debt. It doesn't matter whether its a gov't or opposition problem the debt has to be paid. If not the farmers can go to court in a class action and wait years for any decision. They could also sell their rice directly to the market and refuse to pay duties and tax, if they are still owed money. But its unlikely they will be politically active - its not in their nature.

2. The much more insidious problem is the same one that has faced farmers in many developed countries. That is the cost of production. Why is it now 9,000 baht ? IIt is not because of inefficiency. Most farmers still have the same area of rice growing paddy they've had for generations. But previously they didn't get quite the same yield. Only in the past 10 years have Monsanto, Kubota, the Shins, the money lenders and the traders made it possibe and encouraged farmers to borrow money that they can't afford, all to buy expensive machinery and chemicals to produce more rice that is not competitive on the world market. Rice farmers in 2014 still have the same size paddies as 10 years ago, but they now have 3X the debt. Maybe its their fault for being gullible but they were clearly deceived as we now know. Its history repeating itself as Isaan farmers did by losing all the hardwood forests, 50 years ago.

Thailand maybe the world's 1 or 2 largest exporter and have the edge in jasmine rice sales, but its far from being the world's largest rice producer. Economically, it's not dependent on rice sales, but the political fallout if farmers are not able to diversify will be enormous and long running.

Out of likes +1

[zydeco]

Only small farmers should be paid. The rest, which comprises the vast majority taking advantage of this scheme should get absolutely nothing. They bet on the wrong horse. When that convoy of tractors on the way to Bangkok to join the protests against YL's rice scam turned around on the highway and went home, they lost their best chance to get support and money. Too late, now. Next time, grow something that makes a profit.

[BudRight]

Let them be promised 15,000 baht a ton and when it comes time to pay just tell them there's no money. When they show up in Bangkok simply lie to them and they'll go home. It works every year.

[djjamie]

Comparing Vietnam salaries with Thailand salaries is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read.

I happen to know a big rice producer in Vietnam personally and I know what he pays his workers. Officially, Vietnam has a GDP of $4000 while Thailand is at $9900. But actual Vietnam workers make much much less than Thai workers. A Thai person could not survive in Thailand with a Vietnam salary, so it's also impossible to sell Thai rice at the same price of Vietnam rice because the production costs are much higher.

Get it?

I revel in these unsubstantiated claims.

It seems everyone on this forum knows someone very important or someone that directly relates to the argument at hand to defend there point of view.

Most ridiculous thing you ever heard? Of course it is it because it does not suit your agenda.

I don't care about GDP. I don't care about salary. That is even more reason to invest in education and sustainability then. Thank you Shannon for inadvertently backing up my argument.

Vietnam govt invested in sustainable education programs that allowed the farmers to produce rice 3 times more efficiently than Thailand. There yield is 3 times higher per rai. 3 times Shannon.

Time to bring some sustainability into rice farming to allow the voters to NOT be held hostage at the ballot box and more importantly so they are not dependent on anyone. PTP would hate it. Loan sharks would hate it. I cannot see why you don't agree that education to improve the farmers output, thus profits is a bad thing. Maybe if Jatuporn mentioned it you would be all over it like "white on rice". No pun intended. What is better Shannon. 280kg per rai or 780kg per rai…Do rice farmers not deserve education to allow them to produce that? Would you rather keep the carrot dangled to give a perceived look that you are actually helping the farmers instead of really actually helping the farmers.

Reform is critical for farmers prosperity.

Well Shannon?

Do farmers deserve to be self sufficient and educated in efficient farming techniques to allow them to thrive?

You have started to "attack" me on other posts without addressing this one?

Is this one too hard mate?

[rametindallas]

current production cost of 9,000 baht per ton. Mr. Vichien, claimed at the moment the price of rice is in the range of of 5,800 - 6,000 baht per ton.

The price is going to get a lot lower when the government tries to offload three years of harvests onto the world market. Too many people started planting rice on marginal land to take advantage of the program. No wonder it costs 9,000 Baht per rai in production costs. It's a hard thing, but that excess production must be wrung out of the system and the government's (taxpayers') stockpile reduced substantially, before the rice market can be rebuilt; another reform to add to the list. It is sad to contemplate the ruined lives and livelihoods involved in rice production and all because the government wanted to 'help' them.