International alarm mounts over Thai coup

[heybruce]

The Economist is a news magazine that is frequently quoted by other news organizations. It is arguably the most widely read and respected weekly news magazine in the English language. I would never hesitate to reference the Economist as the source of my information, I would never reference you. Where do you come up with your drivel?

"...It is arguably the most widely read and respected weekly news magazine in the English language."

-- heybruce

The economist is rated as the 94th most popular news magazine by paid circulation out of 100 in the US. Circulation is even lower in other English speaking countries. It's 3 closest rivals are House Beautiful, Conde Nast Traveler, and Architectural Digest. Speaks volumes about your ability to argue..

Speaks volumes of your ability to debate if you regard House Beautiful, Conde Nast Traveler, and the Architectural Digest as weekly news magazines.

Good point fab, not one single "news" magazine was rated as low as The Economist in the list, unless you consider Working Mother news for mothers. The New Yorker was 75th and Time was no. 11, as it should be.

The fact that this poll considered House Beautiful to be a news magazine indicates what kind of poll it is, though based on the posts I see here I can believe a great many people get their news from sources such as that. Find a poll that ranks global sales of international news magazines and see how the Economist ranks in it.

rabas, have you ever done a side by side comparison of Time and the Economist? In terms of quality and quantity of information Time pales in comparison to the Economist. Though Time is much easier for people who don't like reading long articles with big words.

[heybruce]

rubl you consistently and persistently ask indiscrete questions and require politically sensitive answers during a highly volatile time.

Someone has to point this out to you so you can know what so many others over on this side well know.

So I speak to you as if I were someone's Dutch uncle to advise you, to request of you, to use your better judgement, to think twice before demanding of myself, as you have done, or of others, as you also do do, that they name names.

The constitution is vacated by the ruling military council. There are no standing laws in Thailand. The few and only laws that exist are ad hoc laws spun out arbitrarily and summarily by the ruling military council of absolute rulers. You know this. Now kindly connect the dots, thx.

Cheers.

The Lese Majeste laws are in effect.

The others are on hold until reform and in turn democracy can be restored.

The PTP have been very naughty…It is time for their parents to give them a good spanking and change the rules to ensure they don't disrespect democracy again.

The PTP doesn't respect democracy? What about Suthep's thugs who disrupted an election, the anti-Democrats who didn't want elections, and the military that staged a coup? To use rabas' words--logic weeps!

I'm sure the knee-jerk response is to claim the elections were corrupt, so I'll jump one step ahead of you--show evidence that the 2011 election, which was monitored and declared legitimate, was not legitimate.

That is why reform is needed. Thank you for highlighting that.

Be patient.

Do you really think the reforms will address any of these issues? As I wrote in an earlier post:

"The reforms, when they come out, will have some window-dressing limits on elected officials intended to look like they will reduce corruption. However meaningful corruption reforms, such as transparency in the operations of the civil service, police and military, will be missing. The major reforms will be those intended to strengthen traditional institutions and protect them from democratically elected governments."

Once there are elections, if the people have the temerity to elect people and parties the traditional elite disapprove, protesters will once again be allowed to run unchecked and elected officials will be removed from office fpr actions that are legal in any other democracy.

[rubl]

Just read a blunt Financial Times leader of yesterday which spells it out. (You know, the FT - that wild eyed, ignorant, irresponsible newspaper prone to promoting chaos and criminality. Who anywhere in the world would take any notice its leaders?)

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/804d7ebc-e59f-11e3-a7f5-00144feabdc0.html#axzz330vg34dh

Nothing personal, but I really dislike to get a pointer to an article and then need to register first before I can even see some of it.

Agreed.It would be good practice when showing a link to indicate by means of a £ sign that one needs to subscribe or register in order to read the full article.In the case of the FT it's straightforward to register and this allows access to a limited number of articles per month.

Of course, one could be cynical for thinking it was just an excuse not to read the article. As you say it is a simple exercise to register with the FT for free, or not if you don't want to. Why make a song and dance about it on the forum.

"Song and a Dance"? A simple one line comment?

To register may be simple, but so many (news) websites start to require 'registration'. I think that bothersome apart from a need to keep track of all sites I registered to and the unavoidable mails one may get afterwards and the possible lack of privacy, etc., etc.

Now you may complain about a 'song and a dance'

[aripengu]

These foreigners should know that evil and corruption didn't exist in Thailand before Thaksin, now the military is taking all the evil things out and the people of Thailand are helping them and participating in the process and making suggestions all the time. Everything is fine the army is 100% neutral in the Thai conflict, I am hearing only positive news about the coup. Also listening to patriotic music from the 50's helps the country move forward, towards freedom and modernity.

[heybruce]

Add to that economic change. Before 2001 90% of government investment was in Bangkok, the south was doing well from tourism, and the north and northeast had third world economies, making them a convenient source of cheap, complacent labor for Bangkok and the south.

"It was about changing the beneficiary of the corruption."

That, and other issues which some think will are bringing changes to the socio-political fabric of the country, changes which they want to stop.

Since 2001 investment in Bangkok has slowly decreased, it was down to 72% of government investment in 2012 (my source is the World Bank, but I'm leery of posting a link), which resulted in a significant increase in government investment outside of Bangkok. Better roads, schools, clinics, etc., resulted in the peasants getting uppity; workers demanding living wages, hookers getting more expensive, stuff like that. A lot of people don't like this kind of change.

I guess there may be some skewing here due to the BKK mega projects that were underway during the 2000-2012 era - BTS, Express Ways, Swampy - take these costs out, and how does the residue compare to the BKK vs outside BKK change over that time?

I'm puzzled, the numbers are top level comparisons of infrastructure investment in Bangkok to infrastructure investment outside of Bangkok. Why would I want to factor out significant infrastructure investments before making the comparison?

To level the playing field. During times of mega-projects such as those I mentioned there is obviously going to be more budget assigned to those areas. To compare Bangkok whilst these [projects are going on, with now, as to imply that more funding is now being spent on the north is fallacious. These mega projects are special cases and received special funding, this does not mean that funding was necessarily diverted away from the north. They are also one off type investments and do not show a (dramatic) trend to invest more in one area than another - nor after they are completed and paid for, do they show the opposite - i.e. greater investment outside/less investment inside the capital wrt to day to day infrastructure like hospitals, roads, school, clinic, etc - as you mentioned. Hence, they skew the figures.

This is the same trick investment bankers play all the time - show you a small part of a graph showing marked increase (or in this case decrease) and it's an easy sell - but step back and look at more of the graph and it just shows itself to be one side of a short-lived blip.

Bangkok, with 17% of the countries population, receives 72% of the the government's general expenditures http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2012/05/10/thailand-public-finance-management-review-report. This has not only funded mega-projects, which only occur in Bangkok and vicinity, it also leads to wide disparities in the quality of services delivered http://www-wds.worldbank.org/external/default/WDSContentServer/WDSP/IB/2012/05/09/000333037_20120509003158/Rendered/PDF/685510ESW00PUB0y0Note0master0120501.pdf:

"Service delivery disparities mirror expenditure disparities. In the health sector there are three times more doctors per capita in Bangkok than in other regions . While in the education sector the teacher per student ratio is much lower in the North and the Northeast than Bangkok and the central region. These disparities are correlated to human development outcomes."

Bangkok really is treated as an elite area in terms of government spending. The imbalance in spending was even worse before Thaksin, but my source for that is the Economist, which might result in this reply being removed.

If you want to disect the numbers further you'll have to do it yourself. Good luck getting access to historical records of government spending in Thailand.

[citizen33]

As mentioned on today's TVF news thread, Australia has announced a scaling back of cooperation and travel restrictions for some connected with the coup.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/31/australia-downgrades-ties-with-thailand-after-military-coup

[Crushdepth]

Gen P live on TV has just said a new government by 1st October 2014 but no mention of elections?

After reform, which he said would probably take 12-14 months. A bit slower than a lot of people were hoping but presumably this time they want to be thorough.

[heybruce]

A lot of the same old stuff posted over again. People seem to believe that if they post nonsense often enough it will become true. Rather than address them in bits and pieces I'll summarize what I see as the most popular nonsense and my reply.

1. The 2011 election was in someway undemocratic or fraudulent.

The 2011 election was monitored by ANFREL and the results declared legitimate. It wasn't perfect but it reflected the will of the majority. I've seen no evidence that puts the election results in doubt.

2. Yingluck's government operated illegally.

I assume this refers to her removal from office for re-assigning a minister appointed by her predecessor. I am aware of no other country in which this would be cause for removal from office.

3. The government was corrupt.

That's true, but when has Thailand's government not been corrupt? I don't want to retype the table, so I'll just refer readers to post #313 http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/728548-international-alarm-mounts-over-thai-coup/page-13. People can argue endlessly about which upticks are significant, but they can't deny that things have always been corrupt.

4. The government was incompetent.

Once again I agree, but the government enhanced its democratic credentials by attempting to hold new elections under both Yingluck and her successor. In a democracy the proper way to remove an incompetent government is through elections.

5. The military and reforms will eliminate or greatly reduce corruption.

This is a tricky area to comment on, so I'll just congratulate people who believe this on their optimism. My prediction, as I wrote in an earlier post, is that:

"The reforms, when they come out, will have some window-dressing limits on elected officials intended to look like they will reduce corruption. However meaningful corruption reforms, such as transparency in the operations of the civil service, police and military, will be missing. The major reforms will be those intended to strengthen traditional institutions and protect them from democratically elected governments."

But I'm sure that if and when this happens these same people will insist that the reforms will make things much better.

6. All elements of Thaksin and Shinawatra influence must be removed.

I think this would be a good thing if done properly. I am certain that the incompetence of Yingluck's governance had resulted in a significant fall in the popularity and influence of the Shinawatras, and that an election would have confirmed this. Unfortunately there won't be an election for some time, and by then the memories of incompetence will be overshadowed by memories of how Yingluck was removed from office. Just as the 2006 coup made Thaksin a martyr in the eyes of many, so will the current coup provide another Shinawatra martyr. One of the many problems with coups are the unintended consequences.

I could go into greater detail, but not without violating the new rules of posting.

Edited May 31, 2014 by heybruce

[heybruce]

heybruce reminds me of FB, who used to copy and paste all his long and boring drivel ridden posts from such quality red propaganda sites like Thai Political Prisoners.

As I once said of fabio, world champion troll and link poster, anyone with a basic knowledge of Google and the internet can find sites that contain material to back your argument, it does not prove a thing.

I could post lots of links to websites listing all the faults of the PTP but I could not be bothered.

Basing your arguments on data found in mags like the Economist, Financial Times etc. is not impressing anyone.

You only have to live in Thailand for a number of years and walk around with your eyes and ears open to know what is really going on in the country.

I've lived in Thailand for a number of years, and I've kept my eyes and ears open and supplemented this by staying current on international news.

In fact I've lived quite a few years, and know that intellectually lazy people like to present opinions as facts, and hate counter-arguments that use referenced facts.

By the way, I didn't know there was a site called Thai Political Prisoners. Are you sure you should be advertising this information under current circumstances?

[ginjag]

A lot of the same old stuff posted over again. People seem to believe that if they post nonsense often enough it will become true. Rather than address them in bits and pieces I'll summarize what I see as the most popular nonsense and my reply.

1. The 2011 election was in someway undemocratic or fraudulent.

The 2011 election was monitored by ANFREL and the results declared legitimate. It wasn't perfect but it reflected the will of the majority. I've seen no evidence that puts the election results in doubt.

2. Yingluck's government operated illegally.

I assume this refers to her removal from office for re-assigning a minister appointed by her predecessor. I am aware of no other country in which this would be cause for removal from office.

3. The government was corrupt.

That's true, but when has Thailand's government not been corrupt? I don't want to retype the table, so I'll just refer readers to post #313 http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/728548-international-alarm-mounts-over-thai-coup/page-13. People can argue endlessly about which upticks are significant, but they can't deny that things have always been corrupt.

4. The government was incompetent.

Once again I agree, but the government enhanced its democratic credentials by attempting to hold new elections under both Yingluck and her successor. In a democracy the proper way to remove an incompetent government is through elections.

5. The military and reforms will eliminate or greatly reduce corruption.

This is a tricky area to comment on, so I'll just congratulate people who believe this on their optimism. My prediction, as I wrote in an earlier post, is that:

"The reforms, when they come out, will have some window-dressing limits on elected officials intended to look like they will reduce corruption. However meaningful corruption reforms, such as transparency in the operations of the civil service, police and military, will be missing. The major reforms will be those intended to strengthen traditional institutions and protect them from democratically elected governments."

But I'm sure that if and when this happens these same people will insist that the reforms will make things much better.

6. All elements of Thaksin and Shinawatra influence must be removed.

I think this would be a good thing if done properly. I am certain that the incompetence of Yingluck's governance had resulted in a significant fall in the popularity and influence of the Shinawatras, and that an election would have confirmed this. Unfortunately there won't be an election for some time, and by then the memories of incompetence will be overshadowed by memories of how Yingluck was removed from office. Just as the 2006 coup made Thaksin a martyr in the eyes of many, so will the current coup provide another Shinawatra martyr. One of the many problems with coups are the unintended consequences.

I could go into greater detail, but not without violating the new rules of posting.

1 Long gone and past it's sell by date. Thaksin controlled,-illegally run from the desert, funded for red N/E.

2 Not how she was removed but why ???--see other offences/rice etc.,

3 Three words are enough----government was corrupt. ( without OTHERS have been also.)

4 Quote ( incompetent.) scandalous-diabolical would be better.

5 YES--they will do the job like it or lump it.

6 Old ground--again why was she removed---not HOW.

7 This is my addition--you do not have to do anything, just live with it. YOUR old remark to all was after Yingluck gained power," live with it"---we did for 3 painful years.

[Mackie]

A lot of the same old stuff posted over again. People seem to believe that if they post nonsense often enough it will become true. Rather than address them in bits and pieces I'll summarize what I see as the most popular nonsense and my reply....

...I could go into greater detail, but not without violating the new rules of posting.

To be more precise, a lot of the same old stuff posted over again by yourself and your ilk. More to the point. A simple question. How many countries in the western world would allow their country to be run by a convicted criminal via social media? Would any electorate in the so called western democracies put up with it?

[djjamie]

The PTP working along side it's insurgent group the UDD staged a coup 60 seconds after the 2011 election results. The army understanding that this regime funded by an accused mass murderer, accused terrorist and convicted criminal fugitive who is unelectable and manipulated the democratic process to try to abuse the weaknesses in democracy is not very democratic. Of course international condemnation is expected because they do not adhere to political ideologies, they simply use them when and where profitable. So rest assured just as Egypt was not a coup, Thailand is. Just as the west celebrate Thaksin's "Thaksinomics" they condemned Chavez' "Chavismo." It would appear that "democracy" is only ok if it is used to co-opt the population for the interests of Wall Street and London. thaksin highjacked democracy in 2011. That is when the coup happened.

I am old fashioned and believe good will always prevail over evil and I take great satisfaction in knowing that through the hard work of General Preyuth that thaksin will no longer be a threat to democracy. Rest assured the new constitution will have clauses in it to ensure that unelected criminal elements from overseas cannot "pull the strings" so to speak.

The Thai military and 70% of the populace recognized this return to democracy is in fact the first step in a better Thailand that Thai's has yearned for 3 years and this is reversing the coup that happened in 2011. It is a revolution by the majority of the population. 70% in fact.

Farmers paid, no more deaths of innocent PDRC protestors by red shirts, reform and democracy to follow. Of course there are the bitter few that reject this, but at least the majority don't have to listen to that minority under the current martial law. Even the radical red shirt leaders are on board with this revolution now.

Well done General Preyuth. At 4 deaths and 60 injuries a month over the past 6 months you have already saved 1 persons life and 15 from being injured.

Can it be that it was all so simple then?

There was chatter on here about people getting talking points from Robert Amsterdam before. Not sure that was true but I can usually spot the influence of Tony Cartalucci. Anyway, you are entitled to your point of view. Others have spent considerable time reading about Thai history and talking to people on both sides, attempting to figure out what's really going on, trying to avoid giving in to easy assumptions and prejudices. Once you've done that it's much harder to see things in the black & white, manichean way that you do. Anyway, I can't speak for others, but I'm not bitter. Just concerned. And if I was able, I'd spell out my concerns and provide precedents from Thai history. However, I've just seen Craig's post and as there's a high chance this would contravene Thaivisa's understandable policy on political comments atm, I'm unable to do so.

Maybe in a few years time or hopefully much sooner, we'll be able to discuss this openly again and decide whether the optimists had it right. I actually hope they do because the alternative isn't pretty. Also I've just noticed that one of the people who has been silently reading* in Bangkok in the last few days is Somchai Neelapaijit's daughter. Interesting woman. She's got every reason to hate Thaksin given the tragic death of her father, and she probably does. Yet she's been able to put that hatred to one side and stand up for the principles she believes in. That's courage. That's conviction. This in itself is an example of things being more complicated than many seem to believe.

*There are some people silently reading books in Bangkok at present, standing near each other, but not together, just silently reading books. I would normally post a picture of Somchai's daughter reading, widely shared on Twitter/FB etc but, as above, erring on the side of caution.

And rest assured those people reading the books make up a 25% minority that DON'T support the coup ergo DON'T support reconciliation.

They will be left behind.

[heybruce]

heybruce reminds me of FB, who used to copy and paste all his long and boring drivel ridden posts from such quality red propaganda sites like Thai Political Prisoners.

As I once said of fabio, world champion troll and link poster, anyone with a basic knowledge of Google and the internet can find sites that contain material to back your argument, it does not prove a thing.

I could post lots of links to websites listing all the faults of the PTP but I could not be bothered.

Basing your arguments on data found in mags like the Economist, Financial Times etc. is not impressing anyone.

You only have to live in Thailand for a number of years and walk around with your eyes and ears open to know what is really going on in the country.

I've lived in Thailand for a number of years, and I've kept my eyes and ears open and supplemented this by staying current on international news.

In fact I've lived quite a few years, and know that intellectually lazy people like to present opinions as facts, and hate counter-arguments that use referenced facts.

By the way, I didn't know there was a site called Thai Political Prisoners. Are you sure you should be advertising this information under current circumstances?

"referenced facts" -

Very funny. When it comes to Thai politics, I believe nothing of what I hear and half of what I see.

You are starting to sound like fabio, and very few take any notice of his referenced facts either.

In summary, you believe what you want to believe and reject the rest. It shows in your posts.

[heybruce]

A lot of the same old stuff posted over again. People seem to believe that if they post nonsense often enough it will become true. Rather than address them in bits and pieces I'll summarize what I see as the most popular nonsense and my reply.

1. The 2011 election was in someway undemocratic or fraudulent.

The 2011 election was monitored by ANFREL and the results declared legitimate. It wasn't perfect but it reflected the will of the majority. I've seen no evidence that puts the election results in doubt.

2. Yingluck's government operated illegally.

I assume this refers to her removal from office for re-assigning a minister appointed by her predecessor. I am aware of no other country in which this would be cause for removal from office.

3. The government was corrupt.

That's true, but when has Thailand's government not been corrupt? I don't want to retype the table, so I'll just refer readers to post #313 http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/728548-international-alarm-mounts-over-thai-coup/page-13. People can argue endlessly about which upticks are significant, but they can't deny that things have always been corrupt.

4. The government was incompetent.

Once again I agree, but the government enhanced its democratic credentials by attempting to hold new elections under both Yingluck and her successor. In a democracy the proper way to remove an incompetent government is through elections.

5. The military and reforms will eliminate or greatly reduce corruption.

This is a tricky area to comment on, so I'll just congratulate people who believe this on their optimism. My prediction, as I wrote in an earlier post, is that:

"The reforms, when they come out, will have some window-dressing limits on elected officials intended to look like they will reduce corruption. However meaningful corruption reforms, such as transparency in the operations of the civil service, police and military, will be missing. The major reforms will be those intended to strengthen traditional institutions and protect them from democratically elected governments."

But I'm sure that if and when this happens these same people will insist that the reforms will make things much better.

6. All elements of Thaksin and Shinawatra influence must be removed.

I think this would be a good thing if done properly. I am certain that the incompetence of Yingluck's governance had resulted in a significant fall in the popularity and influence of the Shinawatras, and that an election would have confirmed this. Unfortunately there won't be an election for some time, and by then the memories of incompetence will be overshadowed by memories of how Yingluck was removed from office. Just as the 2006 coup made Thaksin a martyr in the eyes of many, so will the current coup provide another Shinawatra martyr. One of the many problems with coups are the unintended consequences.

I could go into greater detail, but not without violating the new rules of posting.

1 Long gone and past it's sell by date. Thaksin controlled,-illegally run from the desert, funded for red N/E.

2 Not how she was removed but why ???--see other offences/rice etc.,

3 Three words are enough----government was corrupt. ( without OTHERS have been also.)

4 Quote ( incompetent.) scandalous-diabolical would be better.

5 YES--they will do the job like it or lump it.

6 Old ground--again why was she removed---not HOW.

7 This is my addition--you do not have to do anything, just live with it. YOUR old remark to all was after Yingluck gained power," live with it"---we did for 3 painful years.

More opinions posted as facts without evidence or examples.

Except for 3, that's an argument for perpetual military rule.

And perhaps 6, there you are refusing to acknowledge one of the consequences of the coup.

Edited May 31, 2014 by heybruce

[heybruce]

A lot of the same old stuff posted over again. People seem to believe that if they post nonsense often enough it will become true. Rather than address them in bits and pieces I'll summarize what I see as the most popular nonsense and my reply....

...I could go into greater detail, but not without violating the new rules of posting.

To be more precise, a lot of the same old stuff posted over again by yourself and your ilk. More to the point. A simple question. How many countries in the western world would allow their country to be run by a convicted criminal via social media? Would any electorate in the so called western democracies put up with it?

Social media isn't the same as the barrel of a gun. The government was free to ignore Thaksin's words, just as the people would have been free to reject the government if there had been an election.

[Prbkk]

Scathing article in today's New York Times..

[Dr Bruce]

The PTP working along side it's insurgent group the UDD staged a coup 60 seconds after the 2011 election results. The army understanding that this regime funded by an accused mass murderer, accused terrorist and convicted criminal fugitive who is unelectable and manipulated the democratic process to try to abuse the weaknesses in democracy is not very democratic. Of course international condemnation is expected because they do not adhere to political ideologies, they simply use them when and where profitable. So rest assured just as Egypt was not a coup, Thailand is. Just as the west celebrate Thaksin's "Thaksinomics" they condemned Chavez' "Chavismo." It would appear that "democracy" is only ok if it is used to co-opt the population for the interests of Wall Street and London. thaksin highjacked democracy in 2011. That is when the coup happened.

I am old fashioned and believe good will always prevail over evil and I take great satisfaction in knowing that through the hard work of General Preyuth that thaksin will no longer be a threat to democracy. Rest assured the new constitution will have clauses in it to ensure that unelected criminal elements from overseas cannot "pull the strings" so to speak.

The Thai military and 70% of the populace recognized this return to democracy is in fact the first step in a better Thailand that Thai's has yearned for 3 years and this is reversing the coup that happened in 2011. It is a revolution by the majority of the population. 70% in fact.

Farmers paid, no more deaths of innocent PDRC protestors by red shirts, reform and democracy to follow. Of course there are the bitter few that reject this, but at least the majority don't have to listen to that minority under the current martial law. Even the radical red shirt leaders are on board with this revolution now.

Well done General Preyuth. At 4 deaths and 60 injuries a month over the past 6 months you have already saved 1 persons life and 15 from being injured.

Can it be that it was all so simple then?

There was chatter on here about people getting talking points from Robert Amsterdam before. Not sure that was true but I can usually spot the influence of Tony Cartalucci. Anyway, you are entitled to your point of view. Others have spent considerable time reading about Thai history and talking to people on both sides, attempting to figure out what's really going on, trying to avoid giving in to easy assumptions and prejudices. Once you've done that it's much harder to see things in the black & white, manichean way that you do. Anyway, I can't speak for others, but I'm not bitter. Just concerned. And if I was able, I'd spell out my concerns and provide precedents from Thai history. However, I've just seen Craig's post and as there's a high chance this would contravene Thaivisa's understandable policy on political comments atm, I'm unable to do so.

Maybe in a few years time or hopefully much sooner, we'll be able to discuss this openly again and decide whether the optimists had it right. I actually hope they do because the alternative isn't pretty. Also I've just noticed that one of the people who has been silently reading* in Bangkok in the last few days is Somchai Neelapaijit's daughter. Interesting woman. She's got every reason to hate Thaksin given the tragic death of her father, and she probably does. Yet she's been able to put that hatred to one side and stand up for the principles she believes in. That's courage. That's conviction. This in itself is an example of things being more complicated than many seem to believe.

*There are some people silently reading books in Bangkok at present, standing near each other, but not together, just silently reading books. I would normally post a picture of Somchai's daughter reading, widely shared on Twitter/FB etc but, as above, erring on the side of caution.

And rest assured those people reading the books make up a 25% minority that DON'T support the coup ergo DON'T support reconciliation.

They will be left behind.

We are living in a state that has banned any talk that can be twisted to be against the Junta and it's coup.

The survey that said 75% of the people supported the Coup must be true and as you say that the people who said that they did support the coup are against reconciliation then that must be true as well. there is only one truth under the Military Junta.

[connda]

Scathing article in today's New York Times..

Try Asian Times Online http://www.atimes.com/ .

Generally more on the mark with less biased fluff.

[Prbkk]

Scathing article in today's New York Times..

Try Asian Times Online http://www.atimes.com/ .

Generally more on the mark with less biased fluff.

almost as scathing if you are referring to the Shawn Crispin piece..

[ginjag]

Scathing article in today's New York Times..

Try Asian Times Online http://www.atimes.com/ .

Generally more on the mark with less biased fluff.

almost as scathing if you are referring to the Shawn Crispin piece..

Funny isn't it that Prbkk arrives on and off and picks out pieces from different news sources to suit his agenda.

Live with it Prbkk as we all had to do over the last 3 years, your turn now.

[connda]

Scathing article in today's New York Times..

Try Asian Times Online http://www.atimes.com/ .

Generally more on the mark with less biased fluff.

almost as scathing if you are referring to the Shawn Crispin piece..

Yeah, but you get both sides of it. The NYT is useful if you want to get your finger on the pulse of the pundits thinking 'Inside the Beltway'. Or at least in my opinion. Are you referring to Tom Fuller's NYT article?

Edited May 31, 2014 by connda

[sumtingwong]

I blame Thaksin Shinawatra.

[ginjag]

The PTP working along side it's insurgent group the UDD staged a coup 60 seconds after the 2011 election results. The army understanding that this regime funded by an accused mass murderer, accused terrorist and convicted criminal fugitive who is unelectable and manipulated the democratic process to try to abuse the weaknesses in democracy is not very democratic. Of course international condemnation is expected because they do not adhere to political ideologies, they simply use them when and where profitable. So rest assured just as Egypt was not a coup, Thailand is. Just as the west celebrate Thaksin's "Thaksinomics" they condemned Chavez' "Chavismo." It would appear that "democracy" is only ok if it is used to co-opt the population for the interests of Wall Street and London. thaksin highjacked democracy in 2011. That is when the coup happened.

I am old fashioned and believe good will always prevail over evil and I take great satisfaction in knowing that through the hard work of General Preyuth that thaksin will no longer be a threat to democracy. Rest assured the new constitution will have clauses in it to ensure that unelected criminal elements from overseas cannot "pull the strings" so to speak.

The Thai military and 70% of the populace recognized this return to democracy is in fact the first step in a better Thailand that Thai's has yearned for 3 years and this is reversing the coup that happened in 2011. It is a revolution by the majority of the population. 70% in fact.

Farmers paid, no more deaths of innocent PDRC protestors by red shirts, reform and democracy to follow. Of course there are the bitter few that reject this, but at least the majority don't have to listen to that minority under the current martial law. Even the radical red shirt leaders are on board with this revolution now.

Well done General Preyuth. At 4 deaths and 60 injuries a month over the past 6 months you have already saved 1 persons life and 15 from being injured.

Can it be that it was all so simple then?

There was chatter on here about people getting talking points from Robert Amsterdam before. Not sure that was true but I can usually spot the influence of Tony Cartalucci. Anyway, you are entitled to your point of view. Others have spent considerable time reading about Thai history and talking to people on both sides, attempting to figure out what's really going on, trying to avoid giving in to easy assumptions and prejudices. Once you've done that it's much harder to see things in the black & white, manichean way that you do. Anyway, I can't speak for others, but I'm not bitter. Just concerned. And if I was able, I'd spell out my concerns and provide precedents from Thai history. However, I've just seen Craig's post and as there's a high chance this would contravene Thaivisa's understandable policy on political comments atm, I'm unable to do so.

Maybe in a few years time or hopefully much sooner, we'll be able to discuss this openly again and decide whether the optimists had it right. I actually hope they do because the alternative isn't pretty. Also I've just noticed that one of the people who has been silently reading* in Bangkok in the last few days is Somchai Neelapaijit's daughter. Interesting woman. She's got every reason to hate Thaksin given the tragic death of her father, and she probably does. Yet she's been able to put that hatred to one side and stand up for the principles she believes in. That's courage. That's conviction. This in itself is an example of things being more complicated than many seem to believe.

*There are some people silently reading books in Bangkok at present, standing near each other, but not together, just silently reading books. I would normally post a picture of Somchai's daughter reading, widely shared on Twitter/FB etc but, as above, erring on the side of caution.

And rest assured those people reading the books make up a 25% minority that DON'T support the coup ergo DON'T support reconciliation.

They will be left behind.

We are living in a state that has banned any talk that can be twisted to be against the Junta and it's coup.

The survey that said 75% of the people supported the Coup must be true and as you say that the people who said that they did support the coup are against reconciliation then that must be true as well. there is only one truth under the Military Junta.

A bit funny how things twist and turn.

At one time it was said that Thaksin was pushing for a coup so then he could blame them for PTP downfall.

Now at last we have some sort of order and reform +investigations, it has been twisted around. Thaksin pushing the reds to make problems shot themselves in the foot. LOVELY.

[sumtingwong]

"International alarm mounts over Thai coup"

Turn off the alarm, things are better now in Thailand than they have been in over a decade.

[Dr Bruce]

A bit funny how things twist and turn.

At one time it was said that Thaksin was pushing for a coup so then he could blame them for PTP downfall.

Now at last we have some sort of order and reform +investigations, it has been twisted around. Thaksin pushing the reds to make problems shot themselves in the foot. LOVELY.

The only memory I have of anybody saying that Thaksin wanted anything like a coup was when the fascists were trying to blame him for the fake bomb attacks that always seem to destroy the toilets.

Thaksin would never want a coup, there was only one side that wanted to do away with democracy in this great land. Now we have a Junta that has promised reforms to the constitution that they wrote in 2007 and the people were never allowed to change.

I expect that the Junta will do a better job this time and we will have a rock-solid set of laws that will achieve the desired aims.

[Mackie]

Scathing article in today's New York Times..

What do you think how much money did cost to publish that rubbish in NYT? It didn't come cheap. But dear leader is known to have deep pockets. He can continue wasting his own money, the gig in Thailand is over. His clique will not be wasting Thai tax payer money any longer.

Anyway NYT, CNN, BBC lost all credibility in 2010. Many of us were here and witness first hand what was going on. Their reporting back then was nothing short of disgrace. Nothing changed.

[brewsterbudgen]

......................"where the usual suspects post increasingly "imaginative" polemic or unrelenting adoration"......................................

And this from one of the worst red propagandists ever to post on TV, (under various noms-de-plume)

I foresee a forum where the nasty, condescending red lovers are too frightened to post. Cannot wait !

I hope I'm not the only one to find this comment very chilling.

[Dr Bruce]

Scathing article in today's New York Times..

What do you think how much money did cost to publish that rubbish in NYT? It didn't come cheap. But dear leader is known to have deep pockets. He can continue wasting his own money, the gig in Thailand is over. His clique will not be wasting Thai tax payer money any longer.

Anyway NYT, CNN, BBC lost all credibility in 2010. Many of us were here and witness first hand what was going on. Their reporting back then was nothing short of disgrace. Nothing changed.

So know you believe that Thaksin has bribed the NYT to say what he wants. Alice in Sunderland time again.

[watcharacters]

.

Food for thought.

Civilian interest vs. military interest.

[ginjag]

A bit funny how things twist and turn.

At one time it was said that Thaksin was pushing for a coup so then he could blame them for PTP downfall.

Now at last we have some sort of order and reform +investigations, it has been twisted around. Thaksin pushing the reds to make problems shot themselves in the foot. LOVELY.

The only memory I have of anybody saying that Thaksin wanted anything like a coup was when the fascists were trying to blame him for the fake bomb attacks that always seem to destroy the toilets.

Thaksin would never want a coup, there was only one side that wanted to do away with democracy in this great land. Now we have a Junta that has promised reforms to the constitution that they wrote in 2007 and the people were never allowed to change.

I expect that the Junta will do a better job this time and we will have a rock-solid set of laws that will achieve the desired aims.

Why don't you quit the FASCIST remarks, post this word for what, does it give you some sort of good feeling ???

Your memory store is short of capacity ----Why do you think the reds were pushing for problems ??? when the protesters were in full swing.

Do you honestly think that the reds would be left to fight it out on the streets with the protesters ?? and if they did what would have been the results ??? the army would have had to come in.

So My idea was Thaksin was pushing for it, as he had lost his government battle and he needed a scapegoat.

So our memory's differ.