Kerry urges Snowden to return to US

[Morch]

I have never been convinced that he had all that much information which would be of interest to anyone.   I think the danger that he posed was that he knew how the information was being gathered, sorted, analyzed and stored.   

 

How information is gathered, sorted, analyzed and stored is prime quality when it comes to intelligence services.

An analyst covering a specific area of expertise might, potentially, be of less value than someone like Snowden.
 

[Morch]

 

Yet another conundrum. While you don't want to encourage individuals to just go rogue and decide for themselves which government security secrets to divulge ( after all we all have varying judgements on this), on the other hand we would hope that individuals would take it upon themselves to publicly denounce government wrongdoing. So, where to draw the line? Had there been an effective, protective shield for Snowden to have come forth internally, I could condemn him. As it is, while I cannot call him a hero, I also cannot condemn him for exposing this over reach by a U.S. Government agency. As an American, I condemn the taking away of Constitutional Rights ( yes, I am fully aware of the Supreme Court rulings) in the name of security. This distroys the very thing we are supposed to be protecting...freedom for the individual against government control.

 

Freedom already has been destroyed, or better put - wiped out for good in the western world. And there's no turning back, and it will get worse!

 

 

And that is probably why you are not allowed to talk about the Snowden case in the West.

As opposed to the free discussion of government transgressions so vivid on Chinese, Russian, North Korean internet

forums. Well done.

[Chill1]

 
And that is probably why you are not allowed to talk about the Snowden case in the West.
As opposed to the free discussion of government transgressions so vivid on Chinese, Russian, North Korean internet
forums. Well done.

Any chance of sharing the best Chinese and Russian forums? Good alternative News and Views sites are always appreciated.

[Chill1]

 
And that is probably why you are not allowed to talk about the Snowden case in the West.[/quote]

Perhaps here too. Most pro Snowden comments have deleted as off topic or inflammatory. Or is it my paranoia kicking in?

[sgtsabai]

I am not sure if Snowden had to swear an oath the same as Manning. I suspect the same or similar. I know the oath Manning swore, in it you swear to protect the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. Certainly not illegal, un-Constitutional actions by the President, your officers and other actors. The Constitution, not the government. They did what they were supposed to do, something many others that swore that same oath should be doing. You know, like the President. As my closest friend, more like a brother, Sgt John Kniffin, USMC, 2 tours VN, Bronze Star-Combat V, Purple Heart, murdered by Agent Orange, once wrote, "I swore an oath to protect the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic, what do I do when my government is the enemy?"

[Morch]

 
And that is probably why you are not allowed to talk about the Snowden case in the West.[/quote]

Perhaps here too. Most pro Snowden comments have deleted as off topic or inflammatory. Or is it my paranoia kicking in?

 

The latter.

 

Didn't run a count of posts or rated them as con/pro.

I think that some posters seeing Snowden as a hero, have some trouble articulating their view without

an all encompassing tirade about the evil that is the USA government, at times getting a bit OT and abusive

while at it. It's understandable that the topic raises some heat, same with other controversial political topics.

But it is pretty hopeless having a discussion on a specific issue without some level of focus.

This was a general comment, doesn't necessarily apply just to this forum or even this topic.

 

The reality is that citizens in the West are generally free to discuss Snowden-like cases and their implications.

[Morch]

I am not sure if Snowden had to swear an oath the same as Manning. I suspect the same or similar. I know the oath Manning swore, in it you swear to protect the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. Certainly not illegal, un-Constitutional actions by the President, your officers and other actors. The Constitution, not the government. They did what they were supposed to do, something many others that swore that same oath should be doing. You know, like the President. As my closest friend, more like a brother, Sgt John Kniffin, USMC, 2 tours VN, Bronze Star-Combat V, Purple Heart, murdered by Agent Orange, once wrote, "I swore an oath to protect the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic, what do I do when my government is the enemy?"

 

I have no idea if Snowden was under the same oath, as he was outsourced through a private company for at least

part of the time. That said, there were definitely some sort of confidentiality agreements vs. both his employer and

the government, which he breached.

 

The actions he exposed are unlawful, but that does not necessarily make his own action legal.

There is an array of possible courses of action in such cases (and certainly, many of them could be deemed as futile),

each carrying different consequences and repercussions.

[sgtsabai]

I do know Snowden took an oath, he was in the Army until a broken leg. That oath to defend the Constitution never ends. He tried the 'inside' route, it got him nowhere, the same as all the rest of the whistle blowers. He knew what would happen to him if he stayed here, the man that exposed illegal torture went to prison, non of the torturers nor those that gave the command were even tried. His fate would have been much, much worse. What is legal for the government to do today was very illegal even under tricky dick. Do you really believe an employer or the government will honor a confidentiality agreement if they don't want to? Hell, do you believe they would honor any agreement? He did what was right and whether that is called breaking a confidentiality agreement or breaking the law it doesn't change the fact he did the right thing, he defended the Constitution. How can it ever be wrong to expose illegal and un-Constitutional actions by the government? It is a duty to do so and should never be labeled 'illegal'. I went to jail under the nixon regime until released by the Supreme Court for speaking truth to the power, today I would just 'disappear' into some hidden US gulag, if even alive.

[Chill1]

I do know Snowden took an oath, he was in the Army until a broken leg. That oath to defend the Constitution never ends. He tried the 'inside' route, it got him nowhere, the same as all the rest of the whistle blowers. He knew what would happen to him if he stayed here, the man that exposed illegal torture went to prison, non of the torturers nor those that gave the command were even tried. His fate would have been much, much worse. What is legal for the government to do today was very illegal even under tricky dick. Do you really believe an employer or the government will honor a confidentiality agreement if they don't want to? Hell, do you believe they would honor any agreement? He did what was right and whether that is called breaking a confidentiality agreement or breaking the law it doesn't change the fact he did the right thing, he defended the Constitution. How can it ever be wrong to expose illegal and un-Constitutional actions by the government? It is a duty to do so and should never be labeled 'illegal'. I went to jail under the nixon regime until released by the Supreme Court for speaking truth to the power, today I would just 'disappear' into some hidden US gulag, if even alive.

At last. Someone who knows the full story. Thanks.

[impulse]

I am not sure if Snowden had to swear an oath the same as Manning. I suspect the same or similar. I know the oath Manning swore, in it you swear to protect the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. Certainly not illegal, un-Constitutional actions by the President, your officers and other actors.

 

+1    If stories about his treatment during confinement are true, for justice to be served in the Manning case a judge would step in and set aside his conviction and release him immediately- with an apology.  Even if he were as guilty as sin (which I'm not qualified to judge).

 

If only to send an ironclad message to the powers that be in government that they cannot abuse their citizens in our name, and with the powers that we have granted them- regardless of their military status, or what charges have been leveled against them.

Edited May 30, 2014 by impulse

[Morch]

I do know Snowden took an oath, he was in the Army until a broken leg. That oath to defend the Constitution never ends. He tried the 'inside' route, it got him nowhere, the same as all the rest of the whistle blowers. He knew what would happen to him if he stayed here, the man that exposed illegal torture went to prison, non of the torturers nor those that gave the command were even tried. His fate would have been much, much worse. What is legal for the government to do today was very illegal even under tricky dick. Do you really believe an employer or the government will honor a confidentiality agreement if they don't want to? Hell, do you believe they would honor any agreement? He did what was right and whether that is called breaking a confidentiality agreement or breaking the law it doesn't change the fact he did the right thing, he defended the Constitution. How can it ever be wrong to expose illegal and un-Constitutional actions by the government? It is a duty to do so and should never be labeled 'illegal'. I went to jail under the nixon regime until released by the Supreme Court for speaking truth to the power, today I would just 'disappear' into some hidden US gulag, if even alive.

 

Not quite sure I got your drift as to employer/government not honoring confidentiality agreements. If you meant the whole spying on citizens thing, then yes, they did not. If that's not what you meant, what does not honoring confidentiality agreement by employer/government mean, in relation to Snowden?

 

I do not share the view that everything to do with government is inherently evil and immoral (although some things certainly are), so would not subscribe to the notion that they would renege on any agreement, nor that any dissent would result in a  disappearance. If anything, it is probably harder to cover up things nowadays, in comparison with the 60's and 70's (as Snowden successfully demonstrated). In general, it is much easier, and safer, to be anti-government in the USA than it is in many parts of the world.

 

Not being an idealist I can accommodate the notion that while the USA provides a relatively generous amount of freedom to its citizens, this freedom may not be full. If measured against the USA constitution and politicians high talk of democracy, it may sound lacking. If one wishes to measure it against freedom afforded to citizens elsewhere around the globe, maybe it ain't that all that bad. Same goes, as far as I'm concerned, with Snowden - acknowledging that it is better the information is out, but not necessarily making a hero of the man.

 

To take your case, as I understand it, you spoke against the government, which in turn exercised a measure later deemed unconstitutional by the supreme court (apologies if I got something wrong, no disrespect, just don't know the full details of your personal story). So, yes - you paid a personal price, but from the sound of it the system ultimately worked. Not a big condolence on a personal level, and not very fair - but taking a broader view it seems that checks and balances did their job.

[chuckd]

I imagine Snowden had a security clearance issued by DISCO...  

 

http://www.clearancejobs.com/security_clearance_faq.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Morch]

 

I am not sure if Snowden had to swear an oath the same as Manning. I suspect the same or similar. I know the oath Manning swore, in it you swear to protect the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. Certainly not illegal, un-Constitutional actions by the President, your officers and other actors.

 

+1    If stories about his treatment during confinement are true, for justice to be served in the Manning case a judge would step in and set aside his conviction and release him immediately- with an apology.  Even if he were as guilty as sin (which I'm not qualified to judge).

 

If only to send an ironclad message to the powers that be in government that they cannot abuse their citizens in our name, and with the powers that we have granted them- regardless of their military status, or what charges have been leveled against them.

 

 

I think that at least in one case where Manning's  lawyer complained, an officer was removed from his post.  While I do not argue that Manning was abused to some extent during incarceration (more so pre-trial, if memory serves) , I wouldn't know that the treatment administered was particular or a general failing of military. Either way, didn't strike me at the time as some unheard of horror story - more like the usual reports about bad treatment  of prisoners in

many places.

 

On that note, worthwhile to consider that after the trial Manning asked the army to move him to a civilian facility in order to undergo a gender change. Now, not sure what standards one goes by, but I would say that a system that allows for such requests cannot the bottomless pit of hell. Again, as in other posts - depends what is one's measuring stick.
 

[sgtsabai]

Morch, you take a reasoned approach that I appreciate, but I must disagree a bit. Perhaps a matter of perception and life experiences. Ask any OWS member how much they feel free. Ask the young Marine Vet that was shot in the head in Oakland. Ask the lady that was just sentenced to jail for a gut reaction to a cop she didn't even know was there grabbing her breast and ask why the defense was not allowed to introduce all their evidence. In my case and many others the system didn't ultimately work, it shouldn't have happened in the first place and take my word for it, I later lost jobs, was constantly harassed, followed, phone tapped etc. I don't think everything the government does is evil either, just much of it. Between cheney/shrub et al and obushma the Constitution might as well have been suspended. You do know you can be picked and 'disappeared' legally now, without recourse to family, communication, the charges against you, an attorney. According to our Constitution that is illegal. In some ways, comparing the US to other countries is like apples and oranges, yes many other countries have less apparent freedom than the US, but your freedom in the US depends greatly on not pissing the government off, the color of your skin and the amount of money you have. As long as plutocrats and corporations continue to control the government and the citizens are being spied on (why-are they the enemy?) freedom is illusionary. Times were much different back in '72, and I and the other co-conspirators had great basically pro-bono attorneys from Texas, Florida and the Center For Constitutional Rights. Snowden is a walking dead man. You do not have to think of him as a hero, I doubt he thinks of himself that way. He just did what was necessary.

[Ulysses G.]

I am not sure if Snowden had to swear an oath the same as Manning. I suspect the same or similar. I know the oath Manning swore, in it you swear to protect the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. Certainly not illegal, un-Constitutional actions by the President, your officers and other actors.

 
+1    If stories about his treatment during confinement are true, for justice to be served in the Manning case a judge would step in and set aside his conviction and release him immediately- with an apology.  Even if he were as guilty as sin (which I'm not qualified to judge).

Pretty much every prisoner is treated like Manning was in a Marine Corps Brig. No special treatment for this traitor.

[Ulysses G.]

They might get one. From Vladimir Putin.

[JesseFrank]

They might get one. From Vladimir Putin.

 

Or maybe a little closer to home, by the Norwegians

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/29/edward-snowden-nominated-nobel-peace-prize

[impulse]

One other thing I am keenly aware of.

 

I'm of an age that it's very possible my brothers and I are alive today, (along with 10's of thousands of Americans and hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese) thanks to the most famous whistleblower in recent US history.

 

Whose biggest regret seems to be having wasted years trying to work through legal channels.  Years, that in his estimation cost the lives of 10's of thousands of Americans and perhaps over a million Vietnamese.

 

Even he concedes that, had he done the same today- he'd never be afforded the fair legal treatment he received just a generation ago.

Edited May 30, 2014 by impulse

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies deleted.   The topic is about Snowden.  

[sgtsabai]

Perhaps these links will give a pretty honest perspective to the debate. Kerry long ago lost all legitimacy. http://thiscantbehappening.net/print/2340 http://jonathanturley.org/2014/05/29/kerry-to-snowden-man-up-and-come-back-to-the-united-states/

[sgtsabai]

Sorry, the first link opens with a click, have to copy and paste for second. I've corresponded with Dave at "This Can't Be Happening", he is very familiar with SE Asia. Johnathan Turley is a well respected Constitutional attorney, unlike obushma.

[sgtsabai]

No, but not for right wing reasons. I knew him in VVAW.

[Chicog]

Edward Snowden granted permission to remain in Russia for further three years as Putin bites back over tightened Ukraine sanctions

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/edward-snowden-granted-permission-to-remain-in-russia-for-further-three-years-as-putin-bites-back-over-tightened-ukraine-sanctions-9654218.html

[sgtsabai]

Well, the hell hole he is in beats the hell hole he would be disappeared into if the US ever gets it's hands on him. I wish him the best, a true patriot.

[Harsh Jones]

Edward Snowden granted permission to remain in Russia for further three years as Putin bites back over tightened Ukraine sanctions
 
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/edward-snowden-granted-permission-to-remain-in-russia-for-further-three-years-as-putin-bites-back-over-tightened-ukraine-sanctions-9654218.html

He can also travel abroad. That should make the US happy.

[Harsh Jones]

Well, the hell hole he is in beats the hell hole he would be disappeared into if the US ever gets it's hands on him. I wish him the best, a true patriot.

He has an IT job in Russia. Have you ever been to Moscow or St. Petersburg ? They are world class cities.

[soalbundy]

That Horseface Kerry rubs me the wrong way....am I alone on this?

Thanks for the comic relief anyway.

he has a face that makes you want to punch it time and time again

[sgtsabai]

Never been, don't like the "political climate" and I would imagine Snowden doesn't either. I didn't see where the 3 year stay would give him permission to travel abroad. I don't think the US would care if he had Russian citizenship, it will snatch him whenever it can and/or he will meet with an unfortunate accident. Kerry is not the man I knew years ago. Yep he is ugly but his first wife was lovely and had a great personality, liked to drink "Boones Farm".

[Kalebiran]

Lets hope Ed Snowden has more to tell of the "crimes and lies" of the USA

[sgtsabai]

Apparently there is now another leaker inside the criminal spy apparatus.