"Saving face"

[verywierd]

To most Asians "saving face" is not as important as "giving face". The refusal to "give face", to publicly and deliberately attempt to shame someone, is the equivalent of slapping someone in the face in London or New York. It is considered an act of aggression, not truthfulness or honour.

When you rebuke an Asian in the Western manner and insist that the subject publicly voice his or her mea culpas, to an Asian audience you are saying, "This person is inhuman slime, unworthy of common courtesy or respect as a human being. He or she is a slave or an animal and should be brought to heel and made to grovel." Is it any wonder they often get angry and even more resistant to your arguments?

In reality there are plenty of ways for another Asian to criticise or rebuke another while still "giving face" and showing a degree of respect to that person as an individual. It may the the timing of the rebuke, the location, and the words and manner used.

The other day I was in a restaurant and the waiter delivered the wrong dish. In this case there was a printed bill on the table. I smiled, nodded my thanks for the service, and then pointed at the item on the bill and casually said, "Is this the rib-eye steak?". She checked the bill and looked at the dish, realised the error, smiled and nodded, and took it away. The proper item was delivered a little later and I thanked her for it. No confrontation, no loss of face caused, problem solved.

Of course not all problems are so easily solved, but it is the approach that matters, if you really care about the feelings of the Thais around you and desire to fit in.

[Sandman77]

I could tell every day always a new

loosing face story with my wife!

Last years walk out of a restaurant

I tell plz tell , that he come and call his dog back, but she avoid any problem and the dog bite she..

Yesterday my office chair bought

One month ago broken

We bought everything in this shop for our house

But this shop not gave any bill!

I tell please ask for discount buying

A new chair no I not want I not want problem

In the name of the face also loosing money is less importend

Friends wife never would ask

A song tail where the way to some location coz she could loose face!

I want make a online shop where every Thai can bought his loosed face back!

But the style yes yes I understand

I realy not like

Irritation of westerns is the answer

Edited June 5, 2014 by Sandman77

[Runamile]

@veryweird

I think you're bang-on. However, I think that Westerners ever, really, getting the concept of losing face, by causing someone else to lose face, is never, much, going to happen, not least because we simply feel it.

[I Like Thai]

I think, S77, some of your query gets touched upon in the following experience:

Not speaking of Forums, but of real life. The real life that passes by between a Farang and his Thai missus( and how Save/Lose Face , and Trolling both co-exist:

It was about 5 weeks before getting married. We are driving and visit one of her temple-chat friends at her house.

We later get home, and fiancée is quiet.

Took about 3 days for it to come out:

Fiancee is angry she lose face to 'friend' who can’t come to wedding

Okaaayee I’m wondering to myself what this time??

Turned out her friend is a WL, and blabbed something that I was her customer…!!!

Mind churns fast.

Set some things straight – without delay this time…

…Mainly that:

I from day one have always been typical farang, always honest and hide nothing from my Thai girl.

I never hid that I had been a customer of WLs in the years preceding us two being together.

Still, fiancée has now lost face big time because her ‘friend’ cannot be at wedding as “she too embarrasse see me, and me see her”, because of it.

Well I didn’t show any sorryness to the Past, and said so, as they were irrelevant, because missus and I hold no secrets.

And I was quite happy the old short dumpy WL didn’t go on the day.

I have since proven it was not her, and that the old ‘friend’ had used my ‘past’ to try to stop my fiancée having a better future than her. We learned the ‘friend’ had convinced fiancée to bring me to house, to ‘see me real”, as part of her setup.

First and only time I had ever laid eyes on her too.

Thai wimmen are complicated yes…..

‘friend’ creates a false ‘embarrasement’ to create a Fiancee ‘lose face’, just to bring fiancée down a rung from being better off than her.

Missus has since disowned her ‘friend’ who bytheway created all this, by gleaning all the Fiancee Thai chit chat descriptions of me and my past, to her ‘friend’.

‘Friend was a great listener it seems…

Fiancee had even told her ‘friend’ of where and when I had been at certain places over those past years, and the ‘friend’ created her story from that.

‘Friends’ biggest mistake was to pretend to have been an actual WL who I had told fiancée the name of, let’s call her Eva.

What the ‘friend didn’t know was that this ‘Eva’ was a 20 yr old nymph, and the old bat ‘friend’ herself is late 40s.

Still took me a year to convince the wife it was all a setup though.

But the wife still holds that lost face experience in her frontline memory to this day.

Trolling: well that is exactly what the ‘friend‘ was doing to the missus.

What is most disturbing is that farang can easily get his head bitten off by being the one blamed for a lostface episode, whether it be real or false, but:

What about the respective behaviour of a Thai (in this case – WL) towards farangs??? She did not give a hoot about this open blabbing, that in many cases could cause the destruction of another couples’ relationship. Thais don’t care if farang seems to loseface, in her eyes.

What’s disturbing is that Thai wimmen in these circumstances give no thought to potential destruction to other peoples lives. What if someone blabs similar to another thai woman about her hubby, and that hubby actually WAS going to WLs during the relationship.

Total destruction ensues…even if the WL had mistaken identity, the farang doesn’t stand a chance, as he won’t be alowd to clear himself by normal discussion, because that causes headaches to hear too much English.

Anyhows, these days, we go to the Temple and wife and I play this little game to ourselves:

Spot the WL in the crowd. I score very well.

What's a WL ????

If your wife kept her mouth shut about your past, then she wouldn't have the problem of your past coming back to haunt her

[GOLDBUGGY]

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I don't know why you find the concept so hard to understand

Thais are a lot more social than people in the West where one could live in a neighborhood for ten years and not know the people living four houses away

because they are more social their reputation (face) is a lot more important than people in the west.

It's the same in Thailand, in fact, I would say in Thailand you generally DON'T know your neighbors unless you happen to live in a rural part of the country and everyone living in your neighborhood have been living in the same place for decades, perhaps even generations. What I have stated is especially true in Bangkok. I have never seen very much interaction between my neighbors (I live in a moo baan btw) and Thais generally care about their family, friends and business partners/other people they have become acquainted with (in that order) rather than strangers, including neighbors they haven't been introduced to.

Therefore I don't think Thais are more social at all. On the contrary if anything. People in the west value their privacy, but so do Thais (in a different sort of way though - they will open up about certain things but not others). The main difference is Thais are open and social with their families and people they already know. They are much more comfortable living in multi-generational households than most westerners. But to suggest they are more likely to talk to neighbors etc. I have to completely disagree with. Either you are living out in the sticks, or your neighbors are exceptionally friendly or it's because you're a westerner.

Thai people I've been introduced to have always been quite friendly, even very friendly (in a way I would expect that) but as for neighbors really bonding and becoming family with each other, I strongly doubt that occurs much at all in Thailand. Most neighbors living in moo baans get along just fine, by not talking to each other unless necessary. They guard their belongings and privacy. That's what I've noticed.

I used to make similar assumptions to you when I first came to Thailand too, sirieneou, but after years spent living in various accommodation, vague smiles are about the most I can expect from neighbors.

Get a Thai Wife like Mine!

In a week she would have made many Thai Friends already, tell you who the good and bad ones are and why, where everyone works and which Thai Wives stay at home, which Farang gets drunk a lot and yells at his Thai Wife, who lived in your place before you, who's kids are who's, and even who's dog and cat they all belong to. I am not surprised to see her come home the first week we are their with some ones kid under her arm.

Never had a problem getting to know who lived near me and all their personal problems. I just have a problem trying to figure out what my Thai Wife said about me to get all this information?

I have a Thai fiance who will soon become my wife. She is perfectly civil with the neighbors and other strangers as am I, but as I and other posters have pointed out, Thai neighbors don't talk to each other unless necessary. So either your wife is very extroverted, has lived abroad or certainly doesn't live in Bangkok. I can guarantee you that the situation I'm describing here is very normal - while I might have a nice little conversation with the clerk at the local store (inside the moo baan) generally speaking it doesn't get very personal. As far as ordinary neighbors are concerned, unless they're having a wedding and want to inform you they'll temporarily be some noise, there just isn't any interaction here! And even if you did talk to someone, it would probably only be the immediate neighbors you can see when you are leaving your driveway and again, only if there is a good reason to do so - people here are not just private but also quite busy, so at best it would take a long time to get acquainted with neighbors, one week like you say I highly doubt unless people are attracted to you due to being a foreigner. Remember that Thais are rather shy, therefore it explains a lot as to why they don't go up to strangers (even if they have to live next to them) and start baking cookies (or rather Tom Yum Kung) for them! Sorry, but this just doesn't happen in Thailand, especially not in Bangkok. Your wife is rather unusual in that context. And as for bringing a neighbors kid home, that just sounds weird, even creepy.

BTW Latin cultures are the most extroverted and it's there that neighbors will interact with each other quite regularly, inviting neighbors over for dinner from time to time. Neighbors having dinner with each other in Thailand? Except at weddings and funerals, unheard of.

Weird and Creepy? Perhaps this is why they stay away from you as you just don't fit in? Where Babysitting the Neighbors Kid for a few mutes while they go to the store is weird and creepy for you. Thais Love Kids, or haven't you noticed?

Left alone I don't think people would talk much to me either as I am not that curious and a Farang. So I guess it is all about my Thai Wife and why my opening comment to you was "Get a Thai Wife Like Mine!".

No! We don't live in Bangkok and big cities like that are known to be different. But your opening statement included all of Thailand but especially Bangkok. We have lived in cities in the North East and South and in 5 different places here. It was all been the same. I say it is not like that all over Thailand. I say it has more to do with the person then the society. If you keep to yourself they will to. If you offer your friendship, they will to.

If you are going to sit there all day and expect people to come running up to you to introduce themselves, then it is not going to happen here. It is not going to happen in the West either, unless he wants to self you Life Insurance or something. But if you went over their and introduced yourself I am sure things would be different for you. It is all up to You My Friend. Or haven't you heard "Up To You" here before?

[Runamile]

I'm seriously not getting this story.

Not knowing what a WL is doesn't help (Woman of Leisure??), but, from context, I guess it means prostitute.

I'm not saying it need be a massive loss of face (depending on area and social classes involved) but wouldn't the friend's "admission" of being a prostitute constitute a loss of face for her?

[kannot]

To most Asians "saving face" is not as important as "giving face". The refusal to "give face", to publicly and deliberately attempt to shame someone, is the equivalent of slapping someone in the face in London or New York. It is considered an act of aggression, not truthfulness or honour.

When you rebuke an Asian in the Western manner and insist that the subject publicly voice his or her mea culpas, to an Asian audience you are saying, "This person is inhuman slime, unworthy of common courtesy or respect as a human being. He or she is a slave or an animal and should be brought to heel and made to grovel." Is it any wonder they often get angry and even more resistant to your arguments?

In reality there are plenty of ways for another Asian to criticise or rebuke another while still "giving face" and showing a degree of respect to that person as an individual. It may the the timing of the rebuke, the location, and the words and manner used.

The other day I was in a restaurant and the waiter delivered the wrong dish. In this case there was a printed bill on the table. I smiled, nodded my thanks for the service, and then pointed at the item on the bill and casually said, "Is this the rib-eye steak?". She checked the bill and looked at the dish, realised the error, smiled and nodded, and took it away. The proper item was delivered a little later and I thanked her for it. No confrontation, no loss of face caused, problem solved.

Of course not all problems are so easily solved, but it is the approach that matters, if you really care about the feelings of the Thais around you and desire to fit in.

an "no apology" yes its a great system alright

[kannot]

Ive got no time for face, yeah yeah say what you like.

Had an owner of a condo ask me to evict a non paying tenant, pleaded with me to do it. Friend of the Wife who rents rooms etc

I saw the girl ( tenant) on the ground floor and said "your the tenant who owes the rent" I said "you really need to learn to pay it on time" she gave me a filthy look and shrugged her shoulders as if to say " I couldnt give a <deleted> what you think"

Anyway went up to her room, knocked the door, asked for the rent or if no rent she had 5 minutes to get her things out.

"its not fair" she squawked ( poor me crap)

I said youve got 5 minutes to get your things out or I will chuck it off the balcony, your choice.

She started to ramble on so I told her LOUDLY "you've got 5 minutes stop wasting everyones time"

Boo hoo fake tears.

She then called the freakin maids to come empty her room out the lazy cow!!

Anyway she was out, found out later owner didnt like me telling her to "get out" probably expected some kow towing crap......"please please can you leave at a convenient time for yourself" etc etc

Fer <deleted> sake!!

Last favour I do for the owner of a room.

Most Thais seem to cower away at anything when the voices get raised.

Ok ok your gonna tell me the next one will shoot me dead/stab me/ call the motorcycle guys etc etc............crap in 99% of cases they are more likely to do nothing and cower or run off.

She was 3 months late with rent, phone call avoidance, no e mail replies, notes on door so dont go whinging on how terrible it was.

[marko kok prong]

Have not read all the thread,but to me it seems it is holding the whole society back,like they would rather tell a lie than the truth for something as simple as asking directions,as they would lose face in saying i don't know,that's what get's me,when i get bull answers that even a kid could to better with,to a reasonable question,unless asia,can get over this it is a big impediment to them,and Los in particular,it's a global world now,culture's have to adapt,those that don't will be left behind.

[Foxter]

It is a difficult thing to explain.

I was stationed in Hong Kong for 2 years and face ( or Prestige, honour or reputation ) is just as part or the Cantonese / Chinese culture as it is in Thailand.

Yes they will lei even when they are found out, as admitting to you that they have made a mistake will result in them loosing face. If you are a boss of a company, then it may be better to get another Thai, who is in a higher position, to tell them off or discipline them. This way they will be disciplined but not loose as much face as being caught or told off by a Falang. Before you throw your arms up in aghast. yep, I know it may seem stupid to you, or to me, but it works.

Showing understanding and respect, even when they are in the wrong is very important. Others will see it and see how you handle it and this in its self will give you respect in their eyes, if you felt with it correctly. Yep you can say , bugger it, I don't care, and you can, but could cause an adverst effect for you.

Yes the Thais will give you a bit of leeway being a Falang, but things like touching someones head, using your feet to pick things up etc, are extremely bad manners and disrespectful, so understanding their culture is important.

Like a lot of things in Asia, you have two s=choices, bang your head against the wall and get a headache, or go with the flow.

I hope this helps a bit.

Yep I am expecting a lot of negative responses to this.

[Thongkorn]

Saving Face, An inability to say i am wrong. its a load of bol.. Its just an Excuse to except responsibility for ones actions.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Thongkorn

[benalibina]

It is a difficult thing to explain.

I was stationed in Hong Kong for 2 years and face ( or Prestige, honour or reputation ) is just as part or the Cantonese / Chinese culture as it is in Thailand.

Yes they will lei even when they are found out, as admitting to you that they have made a mistake will result in them loosing face. If you are a boss of a company, then it may be better to get another Thai, who is in a higher position, to tell them off or discipline them. This way they will be disciplined but not loose as much face as being caught or told off by a Falang. Before you throw your arms up in aghast. yep, I know it may seem stupid to you, or to me, but it works.

Showing understanding and respect, even when they are in the wrong is very important. Others will see it and see how you handle it and this in its self will give you respect in their eyes, if you felt with it correctly. Yep you can say , bugger it, I don't care, and you can, but could cause an adverst effect for you.

Yes the Thais will give you a bit of leeway being a Falang, but things like touching someones head, using your feet to pick things up etc, are extremely bad manners and disrespectful, so understanding their culture is important.

Like a lot of things in Asia, you have two s=choices, bang your head against the wall and get a headache, or go with the flow.

I hope this helps a bit.

Yep I am expecting a lot of negative responses to this.

Showing respect to somebody who lies to you !!

In general, people who lie and get away with it, do not stop doing it.

The reason thais hardly trust each other, reason for it must be " face " as well then.

[Foxter]

It is a difficult thing to explain.

I was stationed in Hong Kong for 2 years and face ( or Prestige, honour or reputation ) is just as part or the Cantonese / Chinese culture as it is in Thailand.

Yes they will lei even when they are found out, as admitting to you that they have made a mistake will result in them loosing face. If you are a boss of a company, then it may be better to get another Thai, who is in a higher position, to tell them off or discipline them. This way they will be disciplined but not loose as much face as being caught or told off by a Falang. Before you throw your arms up in aghast. yep, I know it may seem stupid to you, or to me, but it works.

Showing understanding and respect, even when they are in the wrong is very important. Others will see it and see how you handle it and this in its self will give you respect in their eyes, if you felt with it correctly. Yep you can say , bugger it, I don't care, and you can, but could cause an adverst effect for you.

Yes the Thais will give you a bit of leeway being a Falang, but things like touching someones head, using your feet to pick things up etc, are extremely bad manners and disrespectful, so understanding their culture is important.

Like a lot of things in Asia, you have two s=choices, bang your head against the wall and get a headache, or go with the flow.

I hope this helps a bit.

Yep I am expecting a lot of negative responses to this.

Showing respect to somebody who lies to you !!

In general, people who lie and get away with it, do not stop doing it.

The reason thais hardly trust each other, reason for it must be " face " as well then.

Generalisation at it best

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[benalibina]

It is a difficult thing to explain.

I was stationed in Hong Kong for 2 years and face ( or Prestige, honour or reputation ) is just as part or the Cantonese / Chinese culture as it is in Thailand.

Yes they will lei even when they are found out, as admitting to you that they have made a mistake will result in them loosing face. If you are a boss of a company, then it may be better to get another Thai, who is in a higher position, to tell them off or discipline them. This way they will be disciplined but not loose as much face as being caught or told off by a Falang. Before you throw your arms up in aghast. yep, I know it may seem stupid to you, or to me, but it works.

Showing understanding and respect, even when they are in the wrong is very important. Others will see it and see how you handle it and this in its self will give you respect in their eyes, if you felt with it correctly. Yep you can say , bugger it, I don't care, and you can, but could cause an adverst effect for you.

Yes the Thais will give you a bit of leeway being a Falang, but things like touching someones head, using your feet to pick things up etc, are extremely bad manners and disrespectful, so understanding their culture is important.

Like a lot of things in Asia, you have two s=choices, bang your head against the wall and get a headache, or go with the flow.

I hope this helps a bit.

Yep I am expecting a lot of negative responses to this.

Showing respect to somebody who lies to you !!

In general, people who lie and get away with it, do not stop doing it.

The reason thais hardly trust each other, reason for it must be " face " as well then.

Generalisation at it best

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

A liar who gets away with it and continues to do it is not a generalisation its a fact. To stop doing it needs confrontation or introspection. Hardly a thai trait, isnt it ?

[hellohello123]

It is a difficult thing to explain.

I was stationed in Hong Kong for 2 years and face ( or Prestige, honour or reputation ) is just as part or the Cantonese / Chinese culture as it is in Thailand.

Yes they will lei even when they are found out, as admitting to you that they have made a mistake will result in them loosing face. If you are a boss of a company, then it may be better to get another Thai, who is in a higher position, to tell them off or discipline them. This way they will be disciplined but not loose as much face as being caught or told off by a Falang. Before you throw your arms up in aghast. yep, I know it may seem stupid to you, or to me, but it works.

Showing understanding and respect, even when they are in the wrong is very important. Others will see it and see how you handle it and this in its self will give you respect in their eyes, if you felt with it correctly. Yep you can say , bugger it, I don't care, and you can, but could cause an adverst effect for you.

Yes the Thais will give you a bit of leeway being a Falang, but things like touching someones head, using your feet to pick things up etc, are extremely bad manners and disrespectful, so understanding their culture is important.

Like a lot of things in Asia, you have two s=choices, bang your head against the wall and get a headache, or go with the flow.

I hope this helps a bit.

Yep I am expecting a lot of negative responses to this.

Showing respect to somebody who lies to you !!

In general, people who lie and get away with it, do not stop doing it.

The reason thais hardly trust each other, reason for it must be " face " as well then.

Generalisation at it best

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

A liar who gets away with it and continues to do it is not a generalisation its a fact. To stop doing it needs confrontation or introspection. Hardly a thai trait, isnt it ?

This is a typical face situation that I use but don't agree with

You get in a taxi and either use a meter or agree on a price, let's say 200 baht either agreed upon or what it normally.costs by meter

You arrive at your destination and the meter says 300 because it's tampered with or driver says "ok that will be 300 baht please"

According go Thais, you lose face if you go crazy or lose your temper,

The ideal way is to smile and say we agreed on 200, give them 200 and calmly walk off, that way driver doesn't lose face

Cultural difference or not, if someone is trying to rip me off, I'd rather teach them a lesson rather then smile

And as for me losing face, I.couldn't give a stuff what he thinks of me, does a mother lose face by going bananas at her child for misbehaving?

The concept.itself isn't ridiculous but it's used as an.excuse for crazy behaviour is just ridiculous

[Runamile]

@hellohello123

I quite like that Thai way with the taxi driver - if we substitute "smirk" for "smile". And, maybe, our other hand is balled.

[hellohello123]

@hellohello123

I quite like that Thai way with the taxi driver - if we substitute "smirk" for "smile". And, maybe, our other hand is balled.

and because you've essentially said to him "I know what you are up to, but there will be no consequences to your bad behavior" so he goes unpunished for basically trying to rip some one off

Extrapolate that , and after a while, he thinks he is entitled to rip people off, and its normal,

and the next person who smiles/smirks and walks off, the driver who now feels he is the one getting ripped off, produces a handgun and decides to shoot you

yes thats obviosuly an exaggeration, but its not utterly ridiculous, you get shot for refusing to be get ripped off

not a way I would want to go

[Wat dee]

If lied to and find out...Just delete the person from your life.

[Runamile]

@hellohello123

Not necessarily. He would get the message (I'm quite practiced at smiles, with utter malevolence beneath ; and, usually, people "get it"). Remember, despite all the warnings of mass knifings, dozens of friends, mostly Thais are scared "s**tless" by our physical presence, our muscularity, etc. And that's quite aside from the general wish to avoid conflict. I would have "called him". I think it quite easy for farangs to do that, without saying a word. I equally believe that the situation will be remembered when dealing with others, but, of course, that may only mean when dealing with other farangs, rather than people in general.

[hellohello123]

@hellohello123

Not necessarily. He would get the message (I'm quite practiced at smiles, with utter malevolence beneath ; and, usually, people "get it"). Remember, despite all the warnings of mass knifings, dozens of friends, mostly Thais are scared "s**tless" by our physical presence, our muscularity, etc. And that's quite aside from the general wish to avoid conflict. I would have "called him". I think it quite easy for farangs to do that, without saying a word. I equally believe that the situation will be remembered when dealing with others, but, of course, that may only mean when dealing with other farangs, rather than people in general.

fair enough I see your point,

however, Im not a big guy and I never try and physically intimidate anyone, nor do I intend do, thats for boofheads!

and your example is based on the fact that the taxi customer is a farang, the concept of face obviously applies to everyone including thais, and im sure that he would have tried that on out of town thai people for example

[Runamile]

@hellohello123

I'm afraid I take the view that Thais are in a mess of their own making in these issues.

Though my technique rather does play them at their own game in so far as farangs are concerned. What physical intimidation? Even, what threat of intimidation? Those things just never happened. Did anybody see me hit anybody? Did anybody hear me shout at anybody? Absolutely not - and those things would never happen.

Actually, when I was a teenager there was an example proving the same point in UK. The threat of violence is scarier, way scarier than violence. The more ethereal the threat, the scarier. A friend's wife was having an affair. They divorced, a simple divorce. But the guy bore a grudge against the suitor. Every once in a while, over a period of many, many months, he'd make an appearance - nothing more, no words. For instance as the guy was walking to work Brian would simply appear on a street corner. The guy was scared sh**less. For months and months this went on. Finally, Brian grew bored with the game and pulped the guy. The guy appeared to be positively relieved. I can't concur, in any way, with the actual beating, but the psychology of the rest of the story is faultless.

[AYJAYDEE]

@hellohello123

Not necessarily. He would get the message (I'm quite practiced at smiles, with utter malevolence beneath ; and, usually, people "get it"). Remember, despite all the warnings of mass knifings, dozens of friends, mostly Thais are scared "s**tless" by our physical presence, our muscularity, etc. And that's quite aside from the general wish to avoid conflict. I would have "called him". I think it quite easy for farangs to do that, without saying a word. I equally believe that the situation will be remembered when dealing with others, but, of course, that may only mean when dealing with other farangs, rather than people in general.

scared shitless of our physical presence?? lol

[raybal5]

Raybal seems to be describing himself pretty accurately.

And what is the basis of this comment? I welcome feedback but troll replies like yours are lazy and incomplete

Soutpeel is a respected member of this community and doesn't deserve the vile comments being shoveled at him by you and your buddy callaway. I can certainly ask what rock you crawled out from, but frankly, I really don't care.

It seems that you old guys have lost the capacity to mount a logical argument and resort to making personal attacks without backing up your comments with any form of reason, facts, or logic. A classic case of this is above in the quote where I asked Berkshire to advise me the basis of his personal attack. So far he has not bothered to clarify for me why he feels I am wrong or out of step. Nor in fact have you. You have resorted to accusing me of being vile for making a comment about Soutpeel who made a vile personal attack on the OP. At least Callaway and I have been man enough to justify our comments with a reasoned argument. You old guys seem incapable of anything more than slanging shit at people which is a typical response of people who know they are wrong and have no reasonable basis for what they said. If dumping shit on people is what it takes to gain respect in this forum then that is a sad state of affairs.

Edited June 6, 2014 by raybal5

[raybal5]

In the East they call it Face in the West we call it Respect. The trick is when dealing with folks is not to paint them into a corner with no escape route unless of course you don't care about the outcome..

I think abhaya has put it very well. In the west people don't say they have lost face but they sure as hell react in the same way as Thais. In fact some usually less educated westerners feel so disrespected as to resort to violence at the slightest affront.

[Berkshire]

Soutpeel is a respected member of this community and doesn't deserve the vile comments being shoveled at him by you and your buddy callaway. I can certainly ask what rock you crawled out from, but frankly, I really don't care.

It seems that you old guys have lost the capacity to mount a logical argument and resort to making personal attacks without backing up your comments with any form of reason, facts, or logic. A classic case of this is above in the quote where I asked Berkshire to advise me the basis of his personal attack. So far he has not bothered to clarify for me why he feels I am wrong or out of step. Nor in fact have you. You have resorted to accusing me of being vile for making a comment about Soutpeel who made a vile personal attack on the OP. At least Callaway and I have been man enough to justify our comments with a reasoned argument. You old guys seem incapable of anything more than slanging shit at people which is a typical response of people who know they are wrong and have no reasonable basis for what they said. If dumping shit on people is what it takes to gain respect in this forum then that is a sad state of affairs.

First of all, I'm probably younger than you. So your rant against "old guys" is not only irrelevant, but rather uncalled for. And what does age have to do with anything?

As for your suggestion of a "reasoned argument"....you are freakin delusional. There was nothing reasoned or rational about anything you or callaway had to say. It was basically crappola nonsense, similar to what the OP had to say. If you can just admit that you have no idea what you're talking about, then perhaps we can all move on.

[benalibina]

Raybal seems to be describing himself pretty accurately.

And what is the basis of this comment? I welcome feedback but troll replies like yours are lazy and incomplete

Soutpeel is a respected member of this community and doesn't deserve the vile comments being shoveled at him by you and your buddy callaway. I can certainly ask what rock you crawled out from, but frankly, I really don't care.

It seems that you old guys have lost the capacity to mount a logical argument and resort to making personal attacks without backing up your comments with any form of reason, facts, or logic. A classic case of this is above in the quote where I asked Berkshire to advise me the basis of his personal attack. So far he has not bothered to clarify for me why he feels I am wrong or out of step. Nor in fact have you. You have resorted to accusing me of being vile for making a comment about Soutpeel who made a vile personal attack on the OP. At least Callaway and I have been man enough to justify our comments with a reasoned argument. You old guys seem incapable of anything more than slanging shit at people which is a typical response of people who know they are wrong and have no reasonable basis for what they said. If dumping shit on people is what it takes to gain respect in this forum then that is a sad state of affairs.

+1

[Berkshire]

In the East they call it Face in the West we call it Respect. The trick is when dealing with folks is not to paint them into a corner with no escape route unless of course you don't care about the outcome..

I think abhaya has put it very well. In the west people don't say they have lost face but they sure as hell react in the same way as Thais. In fact some usually less educated westerners feel so disrespected as to resort to violence at the slightest affront.

Actually, i agree with what you're saying here.

[raybal5]

Soutpeel is a respected member of this community and doesn't deserve the vile comments being shoveled at him by you and your buddy callaway. I can certainly ask what rock you crawled out from, but frankly, I really don't care.

It seems that you old guys have lost the capacity to mount a logical argument and resort to making personal attacks without backing up your comments with any form of reason, facts, or logic. A classic case of this is above in the quote where I asked Berkshire to advise me the basis of his personal attack. So far he has not bothered to clarify for me why he feels I am wrong or out of step. Nor in fact have you. You have resorted to accusing me of being vile for making a comment about Soutpeel who made a vile personal attack on the OP. At least Callaway and I have been man enough to justify our comments with a reasoned argument. You old guys seem incapable of anything more than slanging shit at people which is a typical response of people who know they are wrong and have no reasonable basis for what they said. If dumping shit on people is what it takes to gain respect in this forum then that is a sad state of affairs.

First of all, I'm probably younger than you. So your rant against "old guys" is not only irrelevant, but rather uncalled for. And what does age have to do with anything?

As for your suggestion of a "reasoned argument"....you are freakin delusional. There was nothing reasoned or rational about anything you or callaway had to say. It was basically crappola nonsense, similar to what the OP had to say. If you can just admit that you have no idea what you're talking about, then perhaps we can all move on.

1. Old guys in terms of the length of time you have been posting on TV forum.

2. I admit I have no idea what passes for a reasoned argument to people who feel the need to hang shit on other people.

[MonkeyLoo]

Soutpeel is a respected member of this community and doesn't deserve the vile comments being shoveled at him by you and your buddy callaway. I can certainly ask what rock you crawled out from, but frankly, I really don't care.

It seems that you old guys have lost the capacity to mount a logical argument and resort to making personal attacks without backing up your comments with any form of reason, facts, or logic. A classic case of this is above in the quote where I asked Berkshire to advise me the basis of his personal attack. So far he has not bothered to clarify for me why he feels I am wrong or out of step. Nor in fact have you. You have resorted to accusing me of being vile for making a comment about Soutpeel who made a vile personal attack on the OP. At least Callaway and I have been man enough to justify our comments with a reasoned argument. You old guys seem incapable of anything more than slanging shit at people which is a typical response of people who know they are wrong and have no reasonable basis for what they said. If dumping shit on people is what it takes to gain respect in this forum then that is a sad state of affairs.

First of all, I'm probably younger than you. So your rant against "old guys" is not only irrelevant, but rather uncalled for. And what does age have to do with anything?

As for your suggestion of a "reasoned argument"....you are freakin delusional. There was nothing reasoned or rational about anything you or callaway had to say. It was basically crappola nonsense, similar to what the OP had to say. If you can just admit that you have no idea what you're talking about, then perhaps we can all move on.

@Berkshire

Where did i speak nonsense?

I posted the question to gain a better understanding of the Thai saving face issue. If i understood i wouldnt have the need to ask.

I hope the post has allowed some members to gain a better insight.

Most of us have better things to do than argue on here so I will leave you to it.

Its been interesting. Thanks all.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Berkshire]

@Berkshire

Where did i speak nonsense?

I posted the question to gain a better understanding of the Thai saving face issue. If i understood i wouldnt have the need to ask.

I hope the post has allowed some members to gain a better insight.

Most of us have better things to do than argue on here so I will leave you to it.

Its been interesting. Thanks all.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Ok, Monkey dude, on the outside chance that you're legit and not engaged in Thai-bashing, what have you learned from this thread?

Let me give you a hint. About 99.9% of the time when a farang brings up something about Thai "face," it in fact has NOTHING to do with "face" at all. For instance, I know many farangs in Thailand, and westerners in general, who would rather cut off their testicles than admit that they're wrong. Or farangs who'll lie through their teeth, even after being caught out. Or farangs (humans in general) who do not like to be publicly humiliated. Or privately humiliated, for that matter. There are various negative human behaviors that are not confined to Thais, yet, many here lazily classify it as "Thai face."

Yes, in Asia, there are instances involving face and loss-of-face and all that. But the many examples that I've read on this thread and this forum has nothing to do with face. It's usually about money, or miscommunication, or some other factor. Nothing to do with face. Get it?