From A teachers perspective, what can be done about education in Thailand

[sprq]

I've seen street surveys on the TV both from Europe and America...where people were asked to point out something on a map, or asked the name of a President or some other world figure, questions that you would expect a baby to be able to answer and the about of ignorance on the subjects was beyond belief...so it's not confines to Thailand.

And how many of those people had university education?

[iTravelNow]

I think it is a very antiquated thinking and behavior to believe a "one fits all" education program can make us "all" smarter. You always gone have intelligent and less intelligent people. Maybe we need first to teach "know where your abilities are".

Edited June 5, 2014 by iTravelNow

[slipperx]

I think it is a very antiquated thinking and behavior to believe a "one fits all" education program can make us "all" smarter. You always gone have intelligent and less intelligent people. Maybe we need first to teach "know where your abilities are".

How can you know where your abilities are until you have the background of a broad education. If you are fed rice pudding every day and are denied other foods and tastes then you will maybe believe you only like rice pudding. Give a child the basics of a broad range of subjects over several years and then filter down to the interests of the child. The filtering has to be done after the child is semi mature because before then tastes can change and changes are rapid. Education is the key to opportunity and a lot of education comes not only from teachers but parents and your peers too - the reason living on a better neighbourhood and having loving caring educated parents makes such a difference to your opportunities and more on life.

Thailand is starving for education perhaps ore than any other single thing save cleaning out corruption which maybe needs to be a precursor anyway

[dao16]

I think it is a very antiquated thinking and behavior to believe a "one fits all" education program can make us "all" smarter. You always gone have intelligent and less intelligent people. Maybe we need first to teach "know where your abilities are".

Very true. And this brings up another problem with how things are usually run in schools here (again, probably not all, but most of the ones I know about do this). Students enroll and get assigned a class group. This group stays together for all 4 years of the degree program. They do all their classes and activities together (groups of about 30).

Unfortunately, this means that the strong kids don't advance as much as they could and the weak ones don't get the focused lessons they need. As a teacher, it is hard to craft a class that can be challenging enough for the best students (ones completely fluent in English, very smart and just tuned in) and the worst (been "studying" English for a dozen years and can't string together a single sentence).

Not sure that this can be overcome very easily, though, since the Thais value the group cohesion more than creating tiers of classes based on ability.

Edited June 5, 2014 by dao16

[brubakertx]

Schools/teachers must be able to fail students!

Final exams are a joke! Even if a student gets every answer on the final exam wrong, you still have to pass the student.

Pay teachers better, and stop with all the red tape! Many good teachers are leaving Thailand and going to work in other foreign countries, that much better.

[attrayant]

So many schools are too deeply beholden to culture and tradition, and any suggestion to update or improve processes is seen as disrespecting the tradition. My school bills itself as a technology college, and we teach office productivity tools (spreadsheets, databases, etc) to the students. But at the end of the term all the recording and reporting of grades is 100% manual process. We actually have to fill out tally sheets by hand, and account for each student's grades and attendance. This combines the fun of carpal tunnel syndrome with the excitement of double entry bookkeeping.

When I pointed out that the entire process could be done in seconds on a spreadsheet, instead of two or three days by hand, the head teacher looked at me as if I had asked permission to put my finger in her nose.

I don't bother making suggestions any more because it's crystal clear that they don't want to change.

[sturdyd]

I taught in the US, Ecuador and Thailand (including IB schools) so perhaps I have a modicum of credibility.

One problem is defining what education is. A transfer of knowledge? A collection of facts?

I think that like most things, education is fluid.

"Knowing more than the person next to you is no longer a competitive advantage." -- Tony Wagner (Innovation Education Fellow at the Technology & Entrepreneurship Center at Harvard, + more. Google his credentials if you must.)

If you're serious about the topic (and have a good connection ) you may want to check this link:

http://blogs.ibo.org/ibtv/?p=964

It's about 45 minutes long, but well worth the listen.

[traveler103]

Thailand is not alone! Years ago, I gave a lecture at a University in New Jersey, USA about my experiences working against the drug traffickers in Colombia. Their professor asked the students to write a report about my lecture. A week later, I was shocked at the reports. Only one student wrote about what I actually said. The others must have been on a different planet as their reports were made up and had no resemblance to what I said. Worst still was the poor grammar. The professor, a good friend explained that the level of acceptance for students in University had reached new lows.

As for Thailand, I have been teaching English here for 7 years at all grade levels. The private schools are pretty good. However, the government schools lack teachers who are motivated. There is very little if any interaction with parents. Teachers will wait an entire year and not attempt to help a student doing poorly. The student will fail and then given an assignment to help them erase a zero and get a 1 (4 being the highest). If a student does not pass M3 (3rd year of Middle school) they cannot get into M4 and usually drop out of school. When I attended school 100 years ago, we had to go to summer school if we failed. Schools did not easily kick you out.

I enjoy teaching at the University as the quality of teachers is much better. It is certainly not perfect but much more supportive of English teachers and good ethics. Getting students to come in on time is the biggest challenge. Students will fail a course if they are absent 4 times. I have had only a few students who asked me to up their grades and I refused. I was never challenged by their Dean or the University president. I not only teach English but always include lessons about work ethics and human relations. Many of my past students stay in contact and are now beginning their work careers.

I do see some small changes in the Thai schools and it is for the better. Many of the older teachers who were too set in their ways are retiring. As for the boyscout tradition, I see it as a very positive thing for the students and not a waste of time. It will take many years for the changes to be seen but I believe Thailand is heading in the right direction. Like many, I deplore hitting students and that too is decreasing rapidly.

For the many people who only complain and see nothing good in life, nothing will ever convince you. For the others who really enjoy Thailand, try volunteering to help teach English in the primary schools. I did it for 6 years and it gave me great insight and a small voice for change.

Teacher Mac

[commonparlance]

I worked for 2 years in Bangkok public schools (mattayom 3-6 mostly). I won't pretend to have had years and years of experience, but here are my oservations:

Classes are huge--my smallest were around 30 students, largest were twice that. Most research that I've seen suggests that the optimum class size is under 20--much more than that, and it simply doesnt work.

Creativity and imagination are discouraged in favor of rote memorization and copying. More emphasis is put on discipline, uniforms, and hierarchy than ideas or mental stimulation. Critical thinking is discouraged and any natural curiosity students might have about the subject matter is stifled.

No real attempt is made at student centered teaching or tailoring lessons to students learning styles. Because of this, students feel alienated and bored by the content. At best, theyll do the bare minimum to get a good grade. At worst, they totally lose interest in school early on and go through the motions until theyre old enough to drop out.

To the extent that studying is considered important at all, hard sciences, math, and morality classes always take precedence over the arts and humanities. For this reason, students emerge from high school knowing next to nothing about geography, history, languages or politics.

Grades dont mean anything. No one is held back or forced to retake classes, even if they do zero of the coursework. Students are allowed (forced, actually) to retake exams until they receive a passing grade, and deadlines are treated as suggestions more than obligations.

Incompetent or struggling teachers, rather than being given support (or weeded out if necessary), are instead shuffled around from position to position within the faculty and administration in the hopes that theyll either magically figure out how to do their job better or will simply quit.

If you want to know how to improve the system, I'd suggest you start with any of these.

[Paulzed]

I worked for 2 years in Bangkok public schools (mattayom 3-6 mostly). I won't pretend to have had years and years of experience, but here are my oservations:

Classes are huge--my smallest were around 30 students, largest were twice that. Most research that I've seen suggests that the optimum class size is under 20--much more than that, and it simply doesnt work.

Creativity and imagination are discouraged in favor of rote memorization and copying. More emphasis is put on discipline, uniforms, and hierarchy than ideas or mental stimulation. Critical thinking is discouraged and any natural curiosity students might have about the subject matter is stifled.

No real attempt is made at student centered teaching or tailoring lessons to students learning styles. Because of this, students feel alienated and bored by the content. At best, theyll do the bare minimum to get a good grade. At worst, they totally lose interest in school early on and go through the motions until theyre old enough to drop out.

To the extent that studying is considered important at all, hard sciences, math, and morality classes always take precedence over the arts and humanities. For this reason, students emerge from high school knowing next to nothing about geography, history, languages or politics.

Grades dont mean anything. No one is held back or forced to retake classes, even if they do zero of the coursework. Students are allowed (forced, actually) to retake exams until they receive a passing grade, and deadlines are treated as suggestions more than obligations.

Incompetent or struggling teachers, rather than being given support (or weeded out if necessary), are instead shuffled around from position to position within the faculty and administration in the hopes that theyll either magically figure out how to do their job better or will simply quit.

If you want to know how to improve the system, I'd suggest you start with any of these.

And that was just a brief overview!

[iTravelNow]

So many schools are too deeply beholden to culture and tradition, and any suggestion to update or improve processes is seen as disrespecting the tradition. My school bills itself as a technology college, and we teach office productivity tools (spreadsheets, databases, etc) to the students. But at the end of the term all the recording and reporting of grades is 100% manual process. We actually have to fill out tally sheets by hand, and account for each student's grades and attendance. This combines the fun of carpal tunnel syndrome with the excitement of double entry bookkeeping.

When I pointed out that the entire process could be done in seconds on a spreadsheet, instead of two or three days by hand, the head teacher looked at me as if I had asked permission to put my finger in her nose.

I don't bother making suggestions any more because it's crystal clear that they don't want to change.

LoL, I like the second paragraph.

Despite being in the private industry working in Communication, I was told to approach a Business College in Bangkok (hint: put the city name first). BTW; they also have a higher education location outside the capital. After offering them my expertise, the assistant to the Head told me - I quote with 95% accuracy - "our students are not so bright. We should not bother them with more stuff".

I guess he was very honest

[iTravelNow]

I taught in the US, Ecuador and Thailand (including IB schools) so perhaps I have a modicum of credibility.

One problem is defining what education is. A transfer of knowledge? A collection of facts?

I think that like most things, education is fluid.

"Knowing more than the person next to you is no longer a competitive advantage." -- Tony Wagner (Innovation Education Fellow at the Technology & Entrepreneurship Center at Harvard, + more. Google his credentials if you must.)

If you're serious about the topic (and have a good connection ) you may want to check this link:

http://blogs.ibo.org/ibtv/?p=964

It's about 45 minutes long, but well worth the listen.

Thanks for the share, I will listen at this evening.

Let me second that with another link I like to share on "learner training"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_approach (follow the other links inside)

I also like to add the word "Social Competence" that seems almost forgotten or ignored or plain not knowing about it depending from where you come from.

[kingstonkid]

A quality education is the privileged of the empowered elite.The masses do not have access to a decent standard of education, and are socially prevented from benefiting from any meaningful advancement. When will an educated population (an informed electorate), be in the best interests of the powers that be ? Perhaps when the centrally controlled system finds itself falling behind Cambodia..

I teach privately with most of my students coming frm an "elite" school in my area. I can tell you that their knowledge is not that much better than the government students i teach.

The first thing that has to be done is that students hae to be told that they can fail and will have to stay behind. Starting with Prathom 1

The second thing that has to be done is a set of standards must be established for what the schools have to the at each level.

O-Net and other exams have to be taken seriously and if students fail or a school does not achieve the desired pass ratio then they need to be put on probation, a new set of directors and department heads or closed.

The fact that a student can look you in the eye and tell you they do not care because they will pass anyway is ridiculous no matter what country.

Also make teachers take tests to ensure that they re capable of teaching and not just looking cute.

[belg]

the main focus of education and thailand in general is related to the one thing we cannot speak (bad) about

this is a cast system religion / country if you want it or not, hard to ignore when people from some certain descent look down upon ALL THE REST (other thais & farangs)

thailand needs a lot of poor uneducated (farmers / unskilled labours) to get the country running and keeping the way it is (ask the rich if they want to change except the amount of money they have)

[Torrens54]

Seems most Thai Teachers who are tasked with teaching English, simply can't speak English, let alone read or write it.

My daughter attends one of the "better" Thai Public schools. My wife also went there and my wife is also a qualified teacher here in Thailand.

Sadly, when I have met the so called, English Teachers, we have struggled to have a simple conversation. Maybe I'm just a poor uneducated journalist who made his living for many years in Broadcast News and just don't understand "Tinglish."

[joshstiles]

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An incorrect assessment of the ops intention. alt=bah.gif>

There you go again, trying to change Thailand into the West.

Hmmmm.....now I wonder Rimmer, why did the OP misinterpret the intention of the original OP ? Do you think it has anything to do with intelligence? Is this a slur or an assessment or an opinion when discussing intelligence in Thailand....if it were about low intelligence....would this be a slur, opionion, an assessment? Would it be violating any rules to discuss such matters? Do you think I'm obtuse? Are your thoughts about me an opinion, assessment, or a slur?

[Bcgardener]

My apologies for keeping quiet through all these very informative comments (well most anyway, but this is TV) but work has kept me head down all day. The reason I asked the original question was because of personal experience in the 6 years I have had my business here and my never ending amazement at the lack of quality of education for the average Thai. We recently were looking at hiring a new engineer and I was told that to get anyone good you really need to hire someone who has worked overseas. Yes they are more expensive but, but they actually know what they are doing. Another thing that made me post was the very stressful time I have just been through with my daughter. She has just finished her IGCSE exams at an international school and I really can't believe the amount of homework revision and pressure from her subject teachers that she has been through in the last few Months. Her stress levels have been on overload as it is important that she get the required grades to go on and do IB and the only way to do that is to study and work hard. I compare this with a cousin of hers who is a similar age and attends a semi private type of Thai school (not really sure but they pay fees of about 20,000 Baht per year and it is a government run school). She spends all her time on Facebook etc and never appears to have any homework or do any study from what I can see but has no trouble passing all her exams. Although her mother was told that she must send her daughter to special Saturday classes run by the teachers (pay extra and something like 300 Baht per day) or she would not "pass".

I also agree with another of the posts that was made. There appears to be little emphasis put on the humanities in Thailand and I think this really is necessary to give a person a rounded education. My daughter is certainly more focused in this area with her favorite subject being history so I am lucky that we can send her to a school that appreciates this.

As far as the subject of critical thinking or "thinking outside the box" goes, I have pretty much given up on that with my staff. As was said earlier I think that sort of thing is "beaten" out of them at a young age, and that truly is a waste of good people and a crushing of their potential. The "elite" of both colours appear to want that maintained along with never questioning authority (although I do see some changes recently). Just keep turning out workers with enough education to bolt a Toyota together but not enough to question why they will probably spend the rest of their lives doing it.

[Kvanting]

There must be some kind of ministry for education here in Thailand!?

If there is, what do they know about pedagogics, if anything?

I would say I have pretty much knowledge about modern pedagogics. It's not an easy thing but it's also no space science!.

IF THERE IS A POLITICAL WILL thai educational system could improve pretty much in ten years. To fully catch up with modern pedagogics will of course take longer.

Raise teachers salary and status!

Improve teachers education!

It's time to leave the sausage stuffing pedagogics!

"DON'T TEACH ME - LET ME LEARN!"

Edited June 5, 2014 by Kvanting

[kaorop]

. As was said earlier I think that sort of thing is "beaten" out of them at a young age, and that truly is a waste of good people and a crushing of their potential.

This is what I have recently been pondering, when, how and why do bright eager to learn Annuban students fall into this 'pit'?

If they wanted to get serious they could do things like this, invite some of the best from around the world to hold think tanks with the best from Thailand, set out 10 and 20 yrs plans etc, but as is obvious, accepting "outside" ideas upsets so many delicate egos.

Wonder if those practises will be reformed?

[KhaoNiaw]

" All will change in the near future and many Thais will see their previously "safe" jobs going to other Asians. Then the schools will have to actually try to raise the bar. "

Not likely, Thailand has already announced that it will restrict employment after 2015 for other ASEAN people to eight professional categories. Whether ths is in the spirit of the EC Is something the other nations will have to decide. If there is any chance of Thais being excluded from local jobs because of their lack of ability you can bet they will change the rules to suit.

It is the spirit of the AEC, not something that Thailand has unilaterally announced - it's what is being adopted by all ASEAN countries. None of them have to agreed to the free movement of all labour within ASEAN when the AEC comes into being.

There will also be professional ASEAN standards in place that have to be met for employment in those eight categories, which again have been agreed upon by all member states.

[kinmaew]

When I taught there the schools policy was "Every student must pass" nuff said. I would like to elaborate more but there are things I just cant mention without being blocked or arrested.

[KIWIBATCH]

I teach English to Technical school students during 21 x 50 minute lessons per week. Their ages range from 19 to 35 years.

During a discussion with a Thai teacher it was revealed that 75% of these students also receive lessons on how to speak read and write Thai.

[Greg Nixon]

Just to let you know I have a Bachelor of Education and have taught 12 years at college level in Canada and 1 year in China at a grade 10 level ( loved it ). I have traveled extensively in the word.

My Thai wife's daughter attends grade 5 at a large private school.

The province I am from in Canada has a very high level of Education. This is led from a Department of Education which has developed an excellent curriculum that is province wide. I know the other provinces have similar curricula. so that is one element. There are also standardised tests at some levels to test the system and individual school progress.

The Teachers association has played a large role in developing professional teaching days and awareness in many areas of the curricula. There is an annual teacher's convention. And of course negotiating a fair wage for teachers plays a huge role in attracting excellent teachers of above intelligence. A wage of $50,000 to $100,000 per year is possible. Also excellent benefits and pensions are part of the package.

In Thailand a wage of $1000/ month for foreign teachers ensure that the dregs of the worlds teachers will be attracted. Foreign teachers in China can be paid double to triple that amount and good administrators can be paid much more. China needs 10 of thousands of foreign teachers. Many of foreign Thai teachers would not be considered teachers or would be considered incompetent in the rest of the world. It is quite likely that Thai teachers may be paid as little as half that. Many of the schools cannot even manage to keep the school clean and I have toured many in Thailand. So much for example. Cleaning is a simple skill which can be easily managed. Acceptance of filth and general disarray is modelled through child hood and then we wonder why Thai's cannot keep their homes clean.

Although I believe Thai's are just as intelligent as the rest of the world, Education is keeping Thai competency low. My thai wife for example is very intelligent but lacks social skills that are often passed on not just from the family but also from the schools in other countries. My Thai wife has no idea how to read a normal map of the world or road maps of Thailand. She has a responsible position with the Thai government and I am quite certain she is very competent. Her competency has given her compensating skills. She knows people all over Thailand and calls them when she needs directions. That is surely a sign of intelligence.

[iTravelNow]

My apologies for keeping quiet through all these very informative comments (well most anyway, but this is TV) but work has kept me head down all day. [... intentional shorten ...]

As far as the subject of critical thinking or "thinking outside the box" goes, I have pretty much given up on that with my staff. As was said earlier I think that sort of thing is "beaten" out of them at a young age, and that truly is a waste of good people and a crushing of their potential. The "elite" of both colours appear to want that maintained along with never questioning authority (although I do see some changes recently). Just keep turning out workers with enough education to bolt a Toyota together but not enough to question why they will probably spend the rest of their lives doing it.

I fully agree with you. Through made experiences in various cultures where the same situation exists, I know it can be rectified to some extend. But that is a time consuming and delicate process where each situation is different. No matter if you are in the Middle East or Asia/SE Asia - it's possible.

Good luck with our daughter and keep your head up. PM me if you need help.

Edited June 5, 2014 by iTravelNow

[Paulzed]

My apologies for keeping quiet through all these very informative comments (well most anyway, but this is TV) but work has kept me head down all day. [... intentional shorten ...]

As far as the subject of critical thinking or "thinking outside the box" goes, I have pretty much given up on that with my staff. As was said earlier I think that sort of thing is "beaten" out of them at a young age, and that truly is a waste of good people and a crushing of their potential. The "elite" of both colours appear to want that maintained along with never questioning authority (although I do see some changes recently). Just keep turning out workers with enough education to bolt a Toyota together but not enough to question why they will probably spend the rest of their lives doing it.

I fully agree with you. Through made experiences in various cultures where the same situation exists, I know it can be rectified to some extend. But that is a time consuming and delicate process where each situation is different. No matter if you are in the Middle East or Asia/SE Asia - it's possible.

Good luck with our daughter and keep your head up. PM me if you need help.

The education system in the south is really bad for not allowing of "thinking outside the box" and "individualism", the Islamic schools are a lot worse for this but, insist that their version of education is better that the rest.

[Froggybanrai]

I know my comment is not very constructive but can't help to post it. Sorry but education is not my area of expertise...

I guess many of us here, like myself have seen this sales girl check the change with her calculator while cashing say a 100THB bill against a 64THB sale!...Makes me feel so sorry for these indeed extremely nice individuals. The task to move away from such an educational disaster is herculean!

Incidentally, what happens if calculator "battmot"?...

[iTravelNow]

I know my comment is not very constructive but can't help to post it. Sorry but education is not my area of expertise...

I guess many of us here, like myself have seen this sales girl check the change with her calculator while cashing say a 100THB bill against a 64THB sale!...Makes me feel so sorry for these indeed extremely nice individuals. The task to move away from such an educational disaster is herculean!

Incidentally, what happens if calculator "battmot"?...

I have an even more striking example.

Here it is; you ride the "can bus" (those tiny Hiunday for 6+1 people). That ride cost you 7 THB. You give the driver 12 THB (1x 10 THB coin + 2x 1THB coin) with the hope to have 5 THB returned.

This is what I got back:

1st try: got back 3 THB - I told him it's not correct - returned

2nd try: got back 7 THB - I told him it's too much - returned

3rd try: I told him I need only 5 THB back - got back <can't remember but it was too much> - returned

4th try: I took all back what I gave him and paid "7 THB" exact.

Conclusion: Situational learning is interesting, striking, real

Case closed!

BTW; what is "battmot"?

Edited June 6, 2014 by iTravelNow

[Froggybanrai]

"battmot" = dead battery... (in thai, "mot" means empty, no more of whatever) proper transliteration towards english would probably require to write "mawt". Thais use this expression often in relation to their phone's battery when it goes dead.

[Paulzed]

"battmot" = dead battery... (in thai, "mot" means empty, no more of whatever) proper transliteration towards english would probably require to write "mawt". Thais use this expression often in relation to their phone's battery when it goes dead.

Batterly Mawt Reuw, Can always use fingers and toes, just don't point your feet at any one.

[puipuitom]

I feel the problem is basically, because most jobs are restricted to Thais, the lack of competition lead to laziness. Why bother teaching more than needed, since the students will only have to compete with students from other Thai universities. All will change in the near future and many Thais will see their previously "safe" jobs going to other Asians. Then the schools will have to actually try to raise the bar. I worked with an "office manager" who had a degree in IT and computer networking, but took him 3 months to figure out how to hook up our office printer. However, he slept with the Dutch owner and now he has a new Ducati and a new Toyota, so I guess some skills are more valuable than others...

The Thai's lack any interest and knowledge about what happens outside TH. Look at the news on TV and measure how much is about the political and economical elite, wai-ing each other, and what is left for outsside Bangkok, the neighbouring countries and.. the rest of the world.

2) schools are NOT to learn anything, but to serve the teacher. Wash the car, sing a song, do sports, never ask any questions as you might run the chance the teacher does not have an idea, so will loose face. That's why I say: take one step off the grade: bachelor is at max high school degree in the Western world. High school is for us max primary school level.

3) As there is no international competition, the far underperforming Thai will never be pushed out of their jobs by better skilled others. Only for a few jobs, farangs have to be brought in. Look how few Thais work at high skill levels abroad, and you see the proof. Only low-skilled workers in the Middle East, and.. that's it.

4) as the Thai have no experience, how certain work COULD be, they acccept the sub standar results of their fellow-Thai. Only when they have the choice between Japan/EU/USA etc made , they automatically will take products of that origin as being better.

5) Why still many underperforming "managers" stay at their post ? Simple: are OR family of "Zhe BOZZ" or &lt;deleted&gt;.k with him.